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-   -   Passive vs Active Gearing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154980)

MikLast 09-02-2017 11:49

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
What are we considering the line between passive and active? I can see ours as a "semi-active" as it has small portions of it moving, but the manipulator itself doesn't move.

CalTran 09-02-2017 12:29

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1642316)
Are there any advantages to an active mechanism for gear placing? The way I see it, it's a very small time gain for a lot of effort, but there may be other advantages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikLast (Post 1642483)
What are we considering the line between passive and active? I can see ours as a "semi-active" as it has small portions of it moving, but the manipulator itself doesn't move.

Seems like an answer in the opening post of the thread.

ShIfTiNgBoT 09-02-2017 12:42

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1642482)
I'm actually more interested in seeing how many teams have active systems for retrieving the Gear, not placing it.

Yes I'm interested in this as well. We found that an active receiver from the station is far superior to a passive funnel. Just giving the gear a little bit of force downwards is going to help seat it even in a box and can correct for misalignment.

Regarding active placers, we decided that that's also very beneficial. I think someone else in the thread said that there are tradeoffs, but we managed to package an active placer in a volume smaller than many teams passive systems.


In my opinion, I think all the high-level gear bots are going to be able to dump the gear the instant the peg gets in the gear.

mrnoble 09-02-2017 12:48

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1642482)
I'm actually more interested in seeing how many teams have active systems for retrieving the Gear, not placing it.

We are attempting both an active intake (from the floor or from the loading station) and an active placing mechanism (opening the box and an active push onto to spring). We will see within the next few days how successful these are.

JesseK 09-02-2017 12:50

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShIfTiNgBoT (Post 1642511)
Yes I'm interested in this as well. We found that an active receiver from the station is far superior to a passive funnel. Just giving the gear a little bit of force downwards is going to help seat it even in a box and can correct for misalignment.

Tricky thing about active feeder systems - do they still work when the bot isn't up against the wall? If not, then there may be a real possibility of negating their time benefit by wasting cycle time clearing balls/etc before intake.

Robomarfa 09-02-2017 13:47

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Is this active enough?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF1A...ybrkr=223469d5

CalTran 09-02-2017 13:50

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robomarfa (Post 1642557)

I'd be wary of such a system, given that G24 exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G24
Don’t throw GEARS at all. A ROBOT may not LAUNCH a GEAR.
Violation: YELLOW CARD.


Cothron Theiss 09-02-2017 13:59

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1642517)
Tricky thing about active feeder systems - do they still work when the bot isn't up against the wall? If not, then there may be a real possibility of negating their time benefit by wasting cycle time clearing balls/etc before intake.

While I agree that teams will need to insure their system still works even if there's Fuel in the way, I feel like that's not solely a characteristic of active systems. I'd argue that a lot of the passive Gear pockets I've seen might be more susceptible to imprecise alignment and spacing than some potential active intake systems.

Daniel_LaFleur 09-02-2017 14:22

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T8PineappleSam (Post 1642477)

The main issue with a passive mechanism that seems to be mentioned is time for the pilot to notice and pull the gear. While this may add an additional half to full second in the time the pilot takes to physically pull up the lift, I think that the expectation that the pilots will be too busy to see or be able to respond to the passive gearing robot is overstated. Pilots will be focused on the match. Pilots will pull up the gears from incoming robots before placing and turning the ones on the ship. And of course pilots can tend to the passive gear bots before pulling up the gears from the active robots. The only situation I can see where a reasonable pilot would not be at the lift the moment the passive gear bot gets there is if three passive gearing robots all get to the airship at the same time.

Actually I believe that the main issue with passive systems is that there are only 2 pilots, which means that 1/3 of the time your pilot will not be in the airship, meaning that a pilot whom is NOT experienced with your robot will be lifting the gear out of your passive system and will not be aware of the nuances of your system

CalTran 09-02-2017 14:42

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1642577)
Actually I believe that the main issue with passive systems is that there are only 2 pilots, which means that 1/3 of the time your pilot will not be in the airship, meaning that a pilot whom is NOT experienced with your robot will be lifting the gear out of your passive system and will not be aware of the nuances of your system

If your passive system takes more than just a straight pull to get the gear out of the robot, you should probably re-evaluate your system.

Daniel_LaFleur 09-02-2017 14:58

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1642585)
If your passive system takes more than just a straight pull to get the gear out of the robot, you should probably re-evaluate your system.

Most passive systems, due to the bumper rules, will leave the gear further out on the peg (spring). The peg is flexible enough that a quick jerk from the pilot will usually leave the gear on the ground.

straight pulls are not as easy as it seems ;)

Bpk9p4 09-02-2017 15:01

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
So what are people considering a passive vs active system.

1) Pushing the gear onto the peg further
or
2) Aligning the gear with something besides drivetrain

Classified* 09-02-2017 15:08

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bpk9p4 (Post 1642601)
So what are people considering a passive vs active system.

1) Pushing the gear onto the peg further
or
2) Aligning the gear with something besides drivetrain

Our definition is that it just leaves the gear on the peg with some actuated mechanism. Our gear mechanism lines up passively without the drivetrain (the whole thing pivots and gives a little), but our gear box just opens and the gear falls forward onto the peg. When the robot backs away the gear stays on the peg because of its inertia. Robot picture

Bpk9p4 09-02-2017 15:14

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Classified* (Post 1642607)
Our definition is that it just leaves the gear on the peg with some actuated mechanism. Our gear mechanism lines up passively without the drivetrain (the whole thing pivots and gives a little), but our gear box just opens and the gear falls forward onto the peg. When the robot backs away the gear stays on the peg because of its inertia. Robot picture

nice robot. You are getting great cycle times. Would love to see a video

Robomarfa 09-02-2017 15:31

Re: Passive vs Active Gearing
 
That was a fun demonstration with max air pressure, we will dial it down to a softer push. The gear will always be touching the pusher or the peg, never launched. we plan to drive into contact with the airship so we know the exact distance from the peg to the gear. we hope to have an active way to clear fuel from between the bumper and airship. once we are aligned with the peg*, it is a few hundred milliseconds to place the gear well onto the peg.

*therein lies the real work


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