Iraq Draft
 

Some members of congress are pushing for a draft if we go to war with Iraq. How do guys feel about that.

I, for one, am against it. The last draft divided the upper and lower classes. Those who could afford college could stay while those who couldn't were shipped off. The last draft also resulted in a military that couldn't compete with the one we have today. If you make people do a job that they don't want to, they aren't going to do it as well as someone who wants to.

I leave in June for basic training with the Air Force and I don't want to train or work with people who don't want to be there.

The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori

I dunno... If a close friend got drafted, I'd want to enlist. It's just that I'm too young. But yeah, I totally don't support the warriors in the White House, and won't unless those inspectors come up with some hard proof.

I doubt it will come to a draft, considering the importance of public opinion, which seems very ambivalent with Iraq, but if it did I don't think drafted people would be lesser soldiers. Less trained, quite possibly, but not half-hearted. That's what I can say with my limited reading of history.

They better not... I'm almost 18... ugh
I can only hope that like with my dad they find a reason for me not to be drafted.
(my dad was too heavy at the time to go :) heh)

Also do realize that public opinion is mostly people over the age of 25 (those who are free from draft) so that isn't going to be of much use.

All in all the draft itself is a good idea IMO, but only if it's necessary. Right now there are many people in the military with more enlisting each day. I can't see them needing to draft more people at this time, but then of course my opinion doesn't really matter.

Which ever way it goes somebody is going to be unhappy.

is it time to run to canada yet?

i for one, am completely against war. i don't know why, but i think it's that there's no reason to be fighting iraq. we should be making peace, not world war 3. i know that at the moment, i'm probably underweight, so i'm "safe" from any draft that could happen.

i know several ways to legally get out of the draft, and i actually know of one way i can get out of based on my religion (i'm jewish), so i'm not overly concerned. i'm more concerned with bush making a stupid mistake and screwing not only america, but the world.

feel free to call me unamerican, or whatever else you feel like, but i just don't feel like going off to die needlessly in iraq.

If they drafted me, I'd burn the notice and the hell with the consequences. Bush is a gun-weilding trigger-happy maniac, and this entire war is stupid. Take a look outside the U.S., outside of all the propaganda that the mainstream news feeds us every day. Popular opinion is against America now. We should abandon this outdated imperialist doctrine, take a look around, realize we're no longer immortal, and build better relations with other countries rather than continue to make more hatred. I'm telling you this: only bad will come out of this war. All great empires throughout history fell - I can't help wonder if like Rome, we're overextending our reach with this war, and I can't help wonder if this was is a precurser to our eventual decline.

As for actually fighting, I don't believe in shooting other people just because they're muslims or iraqis or whatever and so, obviously terrorists and evil in general. ( [/sarcasm] for those of you who didn't get it). I don't believe in "fighting to preserve freedom and the american way of life." The fact is, the "american way of life" is to just find someone else willing to throw his life away just so we can hold onto 19th century imperialistic beliefs and control the world's economy. The "american way of life" is to exploit others and be the richest there is - be it control global oil supplies, send South American children into sweatshops just so we can wear a cheap shiney pair of Nike's, or have our world banks promise third-world that coffee beans will cure their economic woes only to have them invest all their meager resources and labour into growing them, have the market price drop like all hell, and then say, "oops, I guess we were wrong about coffee. Now, I believe theres this large debt that you have to pay off. To hell with how you're going to do it, we want our money!" And yet, just four cups of Starbucks are so expensive than you can fill your gas tank for that price. Screw the global community, we want our money! THAT is what a draft would make you fight for. Take a look at what we have done to other countries, and it's no suprise that public opinion of the united states is so low outside our great, free borders.

I'm reminded of a bumper sticker I saw a month or two after 9/11.
"Proud to be a Bandwagon American since 9-11-01"

Someone once said something to the extent, "Kill 1 person, it's a tragedy. Kill a thousand people, it's a statistic." Dieing for your country doesn't make you a hero - it makes you a statistic. Don't get me wrong - I'm not an anarchist or anything like that. Good things do come out of this country, and that makes me appreciate it. What I'm trying to say is basically this:

If you want to prove your worth, prove it by creation, not destruction. Shooting someone does not make you a hero. Doing something for the better of society does. That is why I am involved in FIRST - I see a way to improve society with what I learn. You don't do that by picking up a gun and escalating already intense hatred.

I'm going to agree for the most part but...

Many people in the past has died for this country to stay the way it is (free of choice for the most part). If it was enacted and i was called upon, i'd way the choices. If i view it was needed, than i would go, no questions asked, even though i am Arabic. I would, once again, in a heart beat, go to defend this country i was born in, and my family will live in. I would fight till i die for my family to continue living safe in this country. In a case like as of today, i don't view it necessary. I would honestly try to get out of it, just to say if i was drafted tomorrow. I don't like/agree with violence to begin with, but it's human nature. Never will this world be violence free.

In my thoughts, Brandon, i think this thread should be locked up. Too many "aggressive thoughts" can start to get in here...

I personally like the freedoms that are given to me. I enjoy being able to do as I please and I am willing to fight for those freedoms. There are many people that die trying to get into this country because what we have is so great and others want to destroy it. We have a great gift and we must be willing to fight to keep it. Bush maybe pushing this a bit hard but he had to do something. As the past has shown us we can't just sit back and turn the other cheek. Osoma tried to blow up the Twin towers before, we said oh well, then he blew up a military ship, we said oh well, then he blew up an embassy, we said oh well. Then he killed over 3,000 people. If we would have started this sooner I'm sure there are 3000 people that would be willing to fight.

We take alot of things for granted and we don't understand our freedom because we have always had. Think about. The music you listen to and the churches you go to. It's all because of the many Americans that gave their lifes so you can listen to EMENEM and surf the internet. We live in a great country and we should be proud to defend it so our children can enjoy everything we do.

That's my two cents worth anyway.

ok, need to clear up one misconception.

i will never, ever, willingly fight in a war. hell, the MP can come to my house and arrest me, but i will not go and take a gun and shoot someone, who instead of being american and listening to the american propaganda, listens to say, the iraqi propaganda. what it boils down to, is i'm not going to go and kill someone, just because their beliefs are different from mine. anyone who DOES do that, i consider no better than the nazis.

instead of going and killing "unbelievers", i find it a hell of a lot more useful to go and clear up misconceptions, caused by propaganda. true, it's a much harder way, but if you think about it, no matter how you put it, it's a more correct way than going and blowing the snot out of the other side.

Matt Attallah talked about never being a violence free world. you want to know the reason why? it's because of people who listen to the propaganda of their country, be it "Americans are unbelievers and capitalist pigs," or "all Arabs are terrorists." people who don't know better can't help but listen to these, and believe that they are true. it's not their fault, it's the politicians running the nations. to counter that hatred that has built from lies and not so truthful statements, is pretty hard. you have to prove why all Americans aren't unbelievers or capitalist pigs, or why all Arabs aren't terrorists. once you can prove to all these people that they've been lied to, you have a much better chance at world peace, because instead of those "filthy Arabs" being terrorists, they're no different from yourself. no one wants to kill their own family, and no one (at least that i know) would want to kill someone that has nothing against them.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm anti-war, but not anti-action. i want to better the world, not fling megatons of nuclear warheads around and destroy it. America has a bad reputation with the rest of the world. the reason is that we're arrogant and obnoxious. i agree with the rest of the world. Americans need a reality check. the age of the super powers is over. we can't run around like we did in the cold war. America instead needs to show the rest of the world that it cares about the rest of the world, as opposed to just the super bowl and such. then, guess what, we're on our way to a much more peaceful world, and possibly a world without war, but that's still pushing it.

what needs to happen is for everyone to stop, and just talk with people from other areas of the world. only when you accept and understand why they're different, can war be avoided. i remember a story (i don't believe its a true story) about two nations, who sent their children to fight a war. the children got to the battle field, stood, looked across at each other, and dropped their weapons, went to the middle, and had a big picnic with all their food. the adults saw this, and realized that there wasn't anything different between them, and they went and joined the kids, and all lived happily ever after. yeah, it's a bit wishful, but it gets my point across. we, as Americans, don't need to go and blow some heads off of "Arab terrorists." we need to go and show people that there's nothing different between us, save appearance. if you can do that, then pretty much anything is possible.

Dispatch - The General ;)

that is the greatest song ever! oh.....i love it!
how about Tenacious D's WonderBoy or The Greatest Song in the World?

Conscientious Objection and Alternative Service


Something that gets me is all the talk of 'I'll goto war to defend our freedoms', but have no problems when its our government taking away so many freedoms.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~
Hurray for idealists.
I shall run for office.

I believe it was just a tribute... but that's rather irrelevant. ;)

I'm not going to reply to flames, sorry.

I believe that was Joseph Stalin who said that. Feel free to correct me (I just pulled that from something I saw once), but I'm pretty sure it was Stalin.

EDIT: I looked it up, and found the quote online. Here it is:

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
Joseph Stalin (1879 - 1953)

War Sucks

The Draft Sucks

nuff' said

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Im the oldest of 3 and i turn 18 in May. I think its time to figure out how I can dodge the draft...

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heh one addition

Maybe we should draft congress & the senate and send them over to Iraq....:ahh:

We'd definetly lose, doing that.

They're all cowards. :p

War....what is it good for? Absolutley nothin'!


I think that the United States has this wee little problem with butting into the business of other nations, playing the "older, stronger sibling". We send our soldiers to fight the wars of others, and end up with unnecessary casualities. We are, in fact, prisoners of our own democracy, the goverment can decide your fate for you, ain't that fun? If we let this issue drop, the middle east would adventually self destruct by itself. Blah Blah, UN Agreement this, UN agreement that, if we stay out of it, Saddam will end up wiping out everybody..."Yay Allah! I've cleansed the world, wait....where is everyone?" Innocent people may die, and do die as a result of war. We have a national debt that ads up to more than the amount of currency in the world, and a president who is often incapable of simply reading a speach that his advisor has provided him with because it doesn't have the big words spelled phonetically. A vice presdient who barley exists, how many people even know what he looks like? You'd think that he'd be off wallpapering his undisclosed location, but still, he's a part of our goverment, and it's not good when our supposed "leaders" are in hiding, or on "vaccation"....If there is a draft, I'll step up, I'm willing to fight, not for my country, but for what's right, and the values I uphold as an "american citizen". If we have to resort to another draft, it's pretty sad, young american lives gone to "waste", because our country needs more fingers to pull the triggers of the machine guns that rip the flesh of people who's only goal is to die in the name of their god, sending a bullet into their body would only give them a sence of accomplishment. Yes, we are the most powerful nation in the world, yes, we have to power to flatten any ressistance we are confronted with, but No, it's not always necessary.



And thats my 34 cent stamp

Moral diplomacy is such a wonderful concept, isn't it?
Unfortunately, as Woodrow Wilson found out, it doesn't work. Take North Korea. They promised not to build any nukes if we gave them money, and gee, guess what they did.

I saw an online cartoon once. In the first panel, it showed Colin Powell and a Middle Eastern man sitting down and discussing their problems. In the second panel, it showed Colin Powell trying to talk while the ME man screamed "JIHAD! JIHAD!"
The second panel was reality, unfortunately.

The truth is, that America is not liked for who we are. We COULD conform to the way the rest of the world wants us to conform, particularly some sections of the Middle East, but frankly I don't think everyone wants to be forcibly converted to Islam, nor do women want to be forced to wear burqas and stoned for adultery.

Also, while some countries do have legitimate grievances with the US (Turkey lost 10 billion dollars in trade with Iraq during the Gulf War), a lot of them give their countrymen excuses to hate something else. I don't like the royalty of Saudi Arabia, because they're shooting their country straight down the john.

With Iraq, however, I'd like nothing more than to see Saddam die a slow, painful death. However, unless the White House has hard evidence against Saddam, I believe that North Korea should be dealt with first.

As far as playing big brother goes: most countries whine about our influence, yet when something happens, they scream at us to do something about it.

Let's take a look at this.....

You join up, serve for 20 years. You retire on half pay which ain't much. Now Congress...they have all the perks and make money 150,000 who can send you out in a declared war and get you killed. SO send congress over to fight. I"m 17, I'll turn 18 next year when I'm hopefully in college. I don't want to fight, especially for the U.S. as the U.S. passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in the late 1800s. Now why should I as someone who is of Chinese decent fight for a country who didn't want us here in the first place? There is no point in war. War is sadness and pain, etc...further haven't we have enough WIA, MIA, and KIA already. Here's a song from World War II......

We're the fighting bastards of Bataan,
We ain't got no poppa,
no Uncle Sam,
and nobody gives a damm,

.....its when the Phillipines fell to the Japanese.

I don't think there will be a draft. We all have to remember that there are about 5 million reserve troops that will go into battle before people even think about a draft.

Now on the subject of the actual war (if there is any at all), I personally wouldn't serve even if drafted, and I'd find some way to dodge it (I hear Canada is nice this time of year). It's not that I'm against fighting for what I believe in, it's that I'm not too big on this cause. I personally feel we shouldn't even be in the middle east. We should pull out and let the British do all the work. They'd probably do a better job.

Finally, to quote Robet Heinlein "Violence has solved everything throughout history." IMO, it's animal nature to violently settle our disputes, and it's not going to change. Heinlein was disputing the quote "Violence doesn't solve anything". The fact is, fighting is never going to stop. War has always solved problems. Chances are, Baghdad (sp?) will recieve the bombing of a lifetime. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's just nature.

The Draft
 

Now, you might not realize that the idea of the draft was actually proposed by a Democrat. Why? Arent Dem's supposed to be liberal peace lovers?

Well, this same democrat is also the only congressman to have a child in the armed forces. So you migh say that he wants fairness-- afterall we all live here, we should all fight right?

But it goes further than that. For the vast majority of Americans, expecially Congress and President, it is much too simple to go to war. Simply issue a few orders, and we've got 150,000 troops in Iraq, with more on the way. 48 hours of bombing later, thousands of casualities (not to mention Iraqi deaths, estimated at over 500,000--but thats a different topic), and perhaps a small exchange of WMDs, we win the war.

Easy, right?

Well, what if YOU had to fight? changes things around a bit. suddenly, its not so easy...
This is why Rep. Rangel (D-NY) proposed the idea... to make people aware of what war REALLY is (looks like CD is pretty anti-war, so wont explain why war is a horrible act of mankind)
Rangel says, "I believe that if those calling for war knew that their children were likely to serve - and to be placed in harm's way - there would be more caution and a greater willingness to work with the international community." The Source

So, by suggesting the draft, Rangel is actually opposing war. (He was one of the mere TWO representatives that voted agaisnt the War Powers Act several months ago.)

Thanks for listening,
Nik

(my first post!)

the draft is the worst idea i have ever heard. ths simple way to solve it is taht ppl who dont go to college or hold a steady job are enlisted, no questions asked, bye-bye crime, bye-bye drugs. and for those murdereres in jail, they wanan kill? send them over and have tem do some good

johnscans

Yeah, they'll knock out the air force, then the air defenses (SAMs and AAA)...pound them enough so you could fly across that country in a Cessena. B-52's are a little big unless you're carpet bombing troop positions....rubble and debris create more headaches (In World War II, a German Airborne divison at this monastry turned into a pile of rubble turned into an even better defensive location) as ambushes, mines, booby traps, etc.. are a ta easier to disguise. Sniper's playground. I'm digressing. A draft would provoke the Vietnam generation, especially those anti-draft groups. The Vietnam generation also is the majority that Bush is trying to appeal to them to support him but they also have flashbacks to their own experience.

Does any one even know what the rules are of the draft? Like do they take the oldest people first? If your in college are you an exception? What?

On a humorous note...

I wonder how well, "Hey, can my boyfriend come over for conjugal visits while I'm in bootcamp" would work... for draft dodging :-D

-=- Terence

#standard disclaimer
I'm straight but not narrow. When fighting an enemy, best to know and exploit your enemy's weakness, no?

age, college grades, certain medical conditions....you'll find out of they have one. You can always look it up in a book on the Vietnam War Draft. Actually if I get a draft card, I think I'll either go to Canada, or go down to the Air Force recruiting depot and sign on.
a) navy...if your ship goes down, you could be swimming for a while
b) army...sorry, I hate being out in the boonies
c) marines...I ain't that tough...beside why would you want to be first on the beach?
d) Grandfather is a Korean War Veteran of the USAF. GO AIR FORCE!
if you volunter (and make sure before your draft summon date), you can actually pick your branch of service. Besides, if you have to go...go in the branch of your choice. By the way, my classmates are already planning on what countries to flee to.

Viewing this forum is the first time i have been truly disgusted in a long time. All this talk about dodging the draft, and how stupid the government is. Look at who the hell you people are, you are American kids that get to enjoy about every single freedom in this earth. The very fact you live in America allows you to say what you all are saying about this country. Honestly, if you run to Canada, I hope you stay there for one very long time, because if you run there, I do not want you the hell back in my country. You cannot run from every single problem, it is the stupidity of the general population of America that brought this war on in the first place. People were so naive, and did not even know who Osama was, not even when he was bombing the Cole or attacking the Kenyan embassy. So for you to just turn tail and run to Canada might solve your problem, but where do you run when there are cells in every country, waiting for the order to make 9/11 look like a kindergarten graduation.

Wow! it feels good to get that rant off my chest!

I point to history....the Chinese Exclusion Act passed by Congress in the 1800s. The Chinese are the only ETHNIC and RACIAL group to be barred entry into the United States. Why should I fight for a country who said no to my ancestors and family? You tell me that? Why do we the United States have to DICTATE to the rest of the world what they can or cannot do? Notice, we are the ONLY country to use NUCLEAR weapons in armed conflict. All military officiers and enlisted men alike swear to uphold, support and defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of the officiers appointed over me. You point to freedoms....I see no where that Iraq has attacked our freedoms. Yes, orders have been signed to move troops to the Persain Gulf should ther be a war with Iraq and military personnel obey. The freedoms you point too....the military is to defend that piece of paper which states our rights as citizens of the U.S.. And for your information, we have no right to DICTATE what people in this world can do. Why do you think the world resents the U.S. despite all the positive things the U.S. has done for the word, things like the Marshall Plan, foreign aid in terms of food, medical supplies, emergency workers for disaster relief, you name it....we've always been the first to provide (well offer it, some nations like Russia with the Kursk flatly refused) assistance. So for you information, I'd rather go as a non-combatant. That's partly why air force. I least I can work on transport and tanker planes as a part of a flight crew and get flying pay. I do say not support the war, I did not say in the time of my country's greatest need I would not serve, I say this too you if you're so pro= let's sign on, 17 you go down to the recuriters and sign up for dekayed entry. meaning you're going to boot camp once you finish high school or the day you turn 17 sign the paperwork (and your parents too) and join the armed forces. Would you do that?

I'd suggest you read my signature. As an IB student you must think outside the box and sometimes play devil's advocate.

First, if you run to Canada, you will be sent back to the US. We have extradition treaties with you guys, and unless the person in question is facing the death penalty, we'll send you back to the US. So, stop running here.....Maybe swim to Cuba? Or, you could come to Canada, and then fly to Cuba, because us Canadian can go to Cuba....BTW its really nice down there :)

As for Iraq and Canada...Our government has said many times that if the UN supports action against Iraq, Canada will be in there fighting.

If the UN doesn't support the war, but the US acts unilaterally (which I strongly feel it should, nay, MUST not do) and still attacks Iraq, whether or not Canada will be backing the US, no one really knows. Personally, if the UN says no, I hope Canada respects that decision...and maybe the US might as well? Nah.

IMO, the US will attack Iraq. It is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. I figure it will probably happen towards the end of February, but hey, thats just me. Britain will probably back the US no matter what the UN says.

As for the UN, it exists to PREVENT COUNTRIES FROM ACTING UNILATERALLY AND CAUSING WARS. The US is a mamber of the UN, infact it is a vito member, and because of this, I feel it is the US's duty to follow what the UN says. If the US basically tells the UN to screw off (which is basically what it will be doing if it acts against UN reccomendations), then the UN must respond in tern to the US...Maybe take away some powers of the US within the UN? Who knows. There has to be a real incentive for the US to follow UN ruling.

The US is not above the UN...well, at least it shouldn't be...

Edit: Just FYI: I am a conservative if you were wondering.

I believe the U.S. could also kick the U.N. out of their headquarters in New York City as it is on American Soil. Besides, I don't think we actually send peacekeepers or pay our dues. But often we finance UN operations/missions...because we have the $$$$$$$ to do it.

You just proved my point exactly.

The feeling that the US somehow controls the UN. It does not. Nor should it. The UN exists to make sure that countries act peacefully, and do not bring harm to other nations.

Now, sometimes I'll agree that the UN might not do what some people think they should, but on the whole the UN is a good thing, and is so effective because the member nations RESPECT ITS POWERS. The US needs to do this as well.

People have mentioned that the US is the police of the world. This is at least somewhat true. However, the US has assumed the job by its own accord. No one asked you to do it. So, now that you are, the US is going to get involved in all sorts of nasty business, and has (and probably will again) be attacked by "terrorists" who resent the US for trying to tell them what to do.

Maybe if the US acted through the UN more, some problems could be averted, and many many lives could be saved (and I don't just mean American lives - I mean lives of human beings, which is what WE ALL ARE).

The U.N. was chartered to solve conflicts peacefully through negotiations....peacekeepers would be sent to ensure the measures were carried out peacefully. Now being the policeman in the world, when there's a problem....nations turn to the U.S. as we have a greater number of both natural and financial resources to handle different situations. Yes, countries like Russia are wealthy with natural resources but they do not have the capital to use them, much less do anything these days. This policeman of the world is partly due to the fault of foreign policy, a lot of resentment is due to actions like supporting Israel amongst many things and in Iraq, it also involves OIL. Little things that drive the global economy. Iraq cannot export oil...if you take it over, to rebuild it, start making money off of producing oil. It really does come down to this. Playing policeman of the world takes its toll on our Military personnel. Morale stinks....for example thanks to the Iraq issue the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln CVBG (Carrier Battle Group...one CVN/CV, 2 CGs, 2-3 DDG, 2-3 DDs, 2-4 FFG's....look at world navies today- website, don't know actual link) was at the end of a deployment, well guess what, they were ordered to stay in region. It must bite because I don't know about you but after 6 months at sea, I'd definately want to see my family.

i personally think that the whole reason for this war on iraq is that the bush administration is obviously having trouble finding osama bin laden, so now they have to put a new face on the war on terrorism in order to keep people's interest...has anyone else noticed that there has been nothing on the news or in bush's addresses about osama bin laden or afghanistan in quite a while?? didn't think so...i also think that bush feels like if he can succeed where his predecessors (including his father) have failed, then he's assured reelection...it's all about the politics people...

the way i see it, war only leads to bad things. people die in wars, and when life is wasted like that, it's only bad. sure, the economy goes up in a war, but i'd rather have a bad economy than a war. oil, well, it's a non-renewable resource. i say we take the chance now to get used to NOT using oil, maybe find some other resources, such as fuel cell cars, and solar pannals on every house to help provide power. they'll pay for themselves eventually, no?

i think that the whole notion of a war will only hurt the US more. if we attack iraq, it gives the "terrorists" (who have, as far as i'm concerned, won the war, at least for the time being) even more of a reason to come and knock down some more buildings. or maybe this time they'll just knock some planes out of the sky. or maybe something else that will do even more. end result is, if we attack iraq, we are inviting them to attack us in retaliation. i don't want to be in a blood fued, and i'm sure no one else wants to either.

People who say that war is "NEVER the answer" generally do not even know what the question was...

Had we not had a Civil War, who knows where "civil rights" would be?!?

hmmm, I'm not 18 . . .but im 17. I know they didn't draft my uncle for 'Nam till he got kicked out of Harvard, so maybe being accepted into a college will make me inelligible.

Although, morally I am repulsed by the thougt, it is very unfair, like in the Civil War when both Northerners and Southerners could buy their way out. But hell, I don't wanna get my $@#$@#$@# blown to sh*t by a five year old suicide bomber. If they let me out count me out.

Current U.S. Senators who served in the military - 41
Current U.S. Representatives who served in the military - 113

Thats kinda funny, 'cause all the civil war did was abolish slavery. The civil rights movements were in the 60's and 70's.... thats the 1960's and 1970's - about a century AFTER the civil war.

Gilligan, I see you decided to rant about freedom. How free are you if you can be forced to kill people you don't want to kill?

And furthermore, how can a draft be justified in an offensive campaign? I agree that Saddam must be ousted, but don't you agree it would be a much better idea to try to instigate a revolt against him, harnessing the ill-ease of the Iraqis who do not like his regime (and there are many that don't)? If you are aware of the aftermath of the gulf war you'd know just how many people in Iraq are eager to fight him; they just need a little help. But, drafting people who don't want to fight into an armed conflict in which we are bringing the war to someone else, who wouldn't bring open war to us anyway (The reason Saddam wants W.M.D.'s is so he can exert control over the middle-east. If he was so desperate to attack the U.S.... well he's had biological weapons for years. He wants control, power. He wouldn't be so stupid as to ignore Mutually Assured Destruction)? I disagree. If Bush wants to push outward with his political agenda let him do it with volunteers. We have a large segment of our population, who would love to do whatever he asks, no matter what it is.

Honestly, how can a fan of Vonnegut possibly justify a draft in an offensive engagement? The mind boggles.

Let's try this again: 5 million reserves = no draft.

I could see there being a draft if Saddam decides he wants to march an army up through Mexico and invade the US from the south. But until that happens, I'm pretty sure there isn't going to be a draft.

Also: You are all forgetting that the war HAS NOT STARTED YET. Do you all honestly think that Bush wants to go to war? He has left it up to Iraq to make the decision, and he has the U.N. behind him in this action...

Eddie - I don't think this thread is about the draft anymore... it's more about how CD feels about armed conflict with Iraq.

Caleb - about do I think Bush really wants to go to war with Iraq - yes, yes I do. Aside from the finishing-off-what-his-father-left-off business (which at most, I think is a half truth), theres the entire United-States-being-just-a-bully. Lets face it - America has the most powerful military right now. The problem is we don't want to give that power up. "Weapons of Mass Destruction?" Ha, thats just a cliche that the American media came up. Where was the US in stopping India from obtaining "weapons of mass destruction?" What about Pakistan?

[sarcasm] "Oh, but those countries aren't run by obviously evil dictators that want to use the weapons of mass destruction to obliterate the world!" [/sarcasm]

What about the entire India-Pakistan Kashmir conflict? Just a few months ago, those two were just about to start lobbin' nukes at each other. I don't know about you, but that shows me those two are just as bad as Saddam when it comes to handleing "weapons of mass destruction." What if we did something to piss one of them off. Is it so outrageous to think that they would begin to threaten us with lobbing a few nukes over? How come the United States wasn't threatening to invade and overthrow either of those two?

What about North Korea? We think they have nuclear weapons, and coincidentally, there are no future plans of military conflict against them, even though North Korea is one of the largest sponsors of terrorism.

Alright, so what is my point? My point is we're still holding on to century old Imperialistic beliefs. We [Americans] believe that we're still the most powerful country in the world, and any threat to that is painted as evil, or in light of recent fads, any such threat is referred to as "acts of terrorism" or "supporting terrorism" or something like that, and so, we obviously need to send our knights in shining armor to go and eliminate the danger to the world community (read: America).

The fact is, having nuclear weapons is like having an ace of spades in your sleeve - you have something to bargain with. America needs to wake up and sees that we no longer are the single most powerful military in the world. The (First) Gulf War took a coalition of MANY countries and a while to win a relatively tiny piece of land. Even then, we didn't overthrow Saddam. The thing about nukes is once you get them, you have something on the bargaining table until America changes her outlook on the world.

Now, about Saddam, do I think he'd actually use nukes on us? I don't know. If he did, there would be the rest of the world he'd have to face. How would everyone else react to us being nuked? Some would probably side with him, some would attack him. Where does that get us? World War Three, only this time it'll be Nuke-tastic. Honestly, I doubt Iraq nor North Korea want that. My opinion is nukes won't actually be used by Saddam - they're more of a bargaining chip. Does that mean I think Saddam is a Suzy Temple? All I know is this: what I know about Saddam is from the American media, which is influenced by the actions of America, which currently want Saddam out. My point is everything we know about Saddam is biased. Everything you hear is biased one way or another. You can't escape it. The real trick is to look past the bias and make your own opinion.

"Where was the US in stopping India from obtaining "weapons of mass destruction?" What about Pakistan?"

You will have to ask Bush 1 and Clinton about that...don't blame Bush 2.

A war on Iraq, if done how Bush proposes, would not require nuclear weapons. If we do not stop their quest to obtain weapons of mass destruction, I think it is apparent that no one will. Iraq, if left alone, WILL obtain nuclear weapons...similarly to how India and Pakistan did. NK was left alone for too long; in fact, Clinton actually helped them get nukes! And you are right: once a country has nukes, it changes EVERYTHING. I don't think our president (and about 61% of the American people) are willing to give Iraq such a chance...

BTW: I will openly admit to having a desire for America to be #1 in the world in power, influence, morality, military, etc.

Then I feel sorry for your arrogance and the rest of the 54-some percent of America who still aprove of Bush's actions (you should double check your latest polls).

Grow up - America isn't the right culture. How do you even define the right culture? The right culture is what YOU believe in. Just because YOU believe in it, does that give you the right to force your believes upon other people by penalty of death? The fact is, if there WAS only one right culture, then the entire human race would be like America, or like China, or like Russia 15 years ago, or like some tribal community in the middle of the African jungles. Everyone would be the same, and you wouldn't have diversity. But, because there IS diversity, that obviously tells you something: THERE IS NO RIGHT CULTURE!

The fact is, everyone is different.

You need to learn that.

You need to deal with that.

If you don't, as far as I'm concerened, you are exactly like Saddam. After all, what makes you any different? You believe YOUR cause is the superior cause, the right cause, and if you had your way, everyone who stands against your Fight would be dead. More people have died in the name of g/God(s)(esses)/<insert your religious belief here> throughout the history of the world than all other causes combined. You wanna hear some other names that "openly admit to have a desire for <insert your Cause here> to be #1 in the world in power, influence, morality, military, etc."? Here's a few from just the last 75-some-odd years: Osama Bin Laden, Chairman Mao, Stalin, Hitler

Thats the problem in the world - nobody gives a $@#$@#$@#$@# about other cultures. Apparently that includes you, Caleb.

Like I said on my first post in this thread, I participate in FIRST in hopes of using what I learned to better help the world or people in general. Not help peel their splattered remains off some brick wall. Some of the opinions on this thread disgust me. Screw this thread, forget about the world, I'm just going back to building some robots.

*walks away in anger*

Then this thread is off topic and has become null and void. It should be closed.



http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...highlight=Iraq


There has already been lots of discussion about this already. In the end, it turned into one big argument that lead to people insulting eachother.

First, you are all assuming Saddam actually HAS nukes.

Is it possible he does? Yeah, it's possible. Is very likely? No, not really. So far, some empty chemical weapon casings have been found. Where did the contents go? Who knows. Does that mean a war is the answer? No. Geez, you guys have assasins, just go peg Saddam off sometime. Most of Iraq wouldn't mind (<50% of the population likes Saddam).

There was an article in the Globe and Mail today, it raised some good points (it has to do with war not being answer to getting rida Saddam).

What you all think of that? Could it work?

this is off topic and getting personal. say goodbye