Chief Delphi - robot touching a stack of bins

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- - robot touching a stack of bins (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15922)

JTH, I am not sure if lifting a crate in your opponent's zone rases the stack height. I asked FIRST this question, and basically got back snide comments about my questions being convoluted and me abusing the forums. I asked FIRST:

Quote:

The way the rules are currently written, if your opponent's team has x containers in their scoring zone, and you take one of their containers and lift it x wSHUs into the air, their base score is reduced to zero. A robot with a tall enough lifter could easily ensure that their opponents never got any points for containers. Is this correct?

and they replied via email:

Quote:

Rule SC8 states:

"Opponents robots in contact with containers in the alliance scoring zone will not affect the determination of the base score."

How much clearer could that be.

This lead me to believe that stacks would be measured form the lowest bin, not from the ground, but nowhere in the rules does it say where stacks are measured from. I replied to the email they sent me asking if the height was measured from the bottom container, and they replied:

Quote:

See Team Updates

Please do no abuse the Team Forum process. Please do not send e-mails directly to FIRST. Use the team forum. You received an e-mail response because I did not want to clutter the Forum with your convoluted question. If you abuse the forum, we will remove your access to it.

Has anyone managed to get a real answer on this issue?

When I read "Opponent robot contact with a stack will not affect multiplier stack eligibility." in SC9, it means that the fact that an opponent is holding a crate while it is "in" the scoring zone does not make it ineligible to be a stack. So, a "crate supported exclusively" by an opponent robot in your scoring zone is eligible to be counted as either 1 point (per SC8) or as a stack (per first bullet of SC9).

The example crate 20' in the air supported entirely by the opponent robot also can be counted either as 1 point or as a stack. More than likely, it would be the tallest stack, regardless of the fact that it's only 1 crate. Therefore, it should be measured to find the whole SHU to determine your mulitplier.

At least, that's the way that I interpret the rules as written right now. In my pre-Update1 note on the forums, I specifically suggested that the wording of SC9 to be changed to not allow that. While Update 1 did take on my suggestion to change SC8 (the opponent anywhere on the field), it still did not change SC9 in terms of this matter.

Of course, I'm also assuming the use of the SHU measuring device will be from the floor, not from a particular part of the crate, as you seem to imply.

That is how I read the rule as well, but FIRST's flippant answer implied otherwise.

Have you seen the new SC8 in update 3?

Quote:

The total number of containers “in” a Scoring Zone will be counted and assigned one
point each. A container or robot will be determined to be “in” a scoring zone if at least
some part of the container or robot is touching the colored carpet that defines a scoring
zone or is supported exclusively by:
• Other containers “in” that zone (note: this means that if one container rests entirely in
the gray “no score zone” and another container is stacked on top of it that overhangs
the scoring zone, neither container will be considered to be “in” the scoring zone; the
converse is true that if one container is touching a Scoring Zone and another
container is stacked on top of it and overhangs the “no score zone”, both
containers will be considered to be “in” the Scoring Zone);
• An opponent’s robot “in” the scoring zone. This means that an opponent’s robot
holding a container in the air would count. This bullet is worth reading several
times as there are some subtle and very interesting results and consequences.

I think this confirms my concern...

Yup. It looks like that is a definate loophole. I wonder how many teams will design around that?

Definitely not a loophole. No no definitely not. Definitely well thought through. See this thread, message 15. Definitely thought through. Wapner comes on at 3:30. Definitely. 494 toothpicks...

-dave