Disney Extortion!
 

I have been an engineer for a US F.I.R.S.T. team for the past five years. The whole reason that I got involved and put hundreds of hours into the program was because I believe that F.I.R.S.T. does have a positive effect on kids. Most volunteers give up their own time away from family, friends and work as well as their own personal and financial resources so that the kids can receive the opportunities that F.I.R.S.T. has to offer. My company has poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into the F.I.R.S.T. program. I am appalled at the willingness of F.I.R.S.T. to be a part of the extortion that Disney is putting on the teams this year. This is the first year Disney mandates to the teams that if they do not stay at a Disney hotel they have to pay Disney $75.00 per person.

From the FIRST web page (see choice 2):

All teams attending the 2002 FIRST Championship event are required to purchase one of the following two Walt Disney World package options:
1) One option is the traditional hotel room package selections, which includes room nights, park tickets, meal coupons, transportation, a commemorative gift and admission into the Saturday night Team Wrap Party.
2) The other option is to not purchase a hotel package from the offerings below and to instead pay a Walt Disney World Event Fee of $75.00 per team member. This fee includes access to bus transportation from resorts that are package choices, as well as admission into the Team Wrap Party on Saturday night that includes food and beverage, entertainment, and select Epcot attractions.

Yes, folks it is extortion! Our team generally has about 100 team members every year. 70 students and the rest are engineers and college mentors. The cost of staying in a Disney resort was always out of our reach and we had to decide if we would rather have more kids involved and stay at a regular hotel and go to Disney for one day (which we always do – in fact we have already purchased the tickets for this year for each person to have a 1 day pass) or spend incredible amounts of money to stay on Disney property and have the park hopper passes (which do not get used very much due to the fact that we require our kids to attend all our matches) and allow fewer kids to experience the thrill of nationals. We always chose the former because we felt that F.I.R.S.T. was about inspiring these kids and not about days at Disney. We have in the past stayed at a good hotel with no complaints from anyone. This year according to the rules set forth by Disney with F.I.R.S.T.’s full approval we will be required to send Disney a check for $7,500.00 NOT to stay in one of their hotels.

One of the parents suggested that we tell Disney that we only have 10 team members. We have been trying to teach our kids integrity and honesty and “Gracious Professionalism”. We cannot and will not lie to get out of this kind of extortion. So which kids do we tell “you can’t go because we did not budget $7,500.00 to be paid to Disney NOT to stay in their hotel.”

Our team has produced many, many engineering students over the years, several of which I’ve hired and much of the reason was their involvement in FIRST. Disney has been VERY supportive of FIRST in the past, but requiring teams to pay Disney NOT to stay in one of their hotels is crossing the line of common sense! The difference in staying at Disney and Best Western (at $59/night) is almost $28,000.00. What were they thinking??!!!!!!!!

As an engineer I’m having a hard time with this ransom like treatment of the kids by Disney with FIRST’s support. My company always believed that Disney was a sponsor of FIRST and the kids, not the other way around!

Comments?

Korey Kline
Engineer -Ramtech 59

Re: Disney Extortion!
 

This is a topic that has been brought up repeatedly here in the past, so I'm only going to touch on it...You say that the $75 per person event fee is "extortion." Out of curiousity, what would you call it if FIRST eliminated this event fee, but you then had to explain to team B that they had to pay $100 extra per person in their Disney package over what you were paying in your non-Disney package, to cover your team's use of the event site, admittance to the team party, etc? This is what they are preventing with this event fee. The FIRST/Disney packages cost more than a normal Disney package because they help to cover the cost of the event "village," team party, non-package team use of busses provided to Good Neighbor hotels included in the Disney package, etc. I agree with FIRST's statement in making this change in costs, saying that some teams should not subsizide portions of the costs of the Championship event for other teams.

The $75 is a bargain
 

If a team is not staying at the Disney hotels and not buying park passes, the $75 per person is a bargain. How much does it cost to build the stadiums, pit tents, etc? How much does it cost to run the busses that all teams use? How much does it cost to put on the show at the closing ceremony and do the 'wrap party'? I don't know the answer, but it is plenty. This cost of the competition site is subsidized by the hotel/park pass/meal ticket packages, and it's only fair that teams who don't buy the packages should pay their share of the cost.

From our experience, the 'cheap' Disney hotels, All Star Sports/Music/Movies are about the same price as non-Disney hotels, and they have good facilities for the students (and adults) to keep occupied in the evenings.

I guess another option to help pay for the cost of the competition site, etc. would be to raise the entry fee for Nationals. Then the package cost could be lower, and the $75/person for teams not using the package could be eliminated. The trouble with such an arrangement is that small teams would pay more of the cost per person than large teams. To me, what they are doing makes sense unless FIRST and/or Disney are making a windfall of money on the competition, which I doubt is the case. Maybe only FIRST and Disney know for sure about that.

We are one of the ODD, unlucky teams to NOT be attending Nationals this year. I agree with the extorsion argument. Last year, our team did not attend the party inside Disney. It is crowded and too late at night to really enjoy food. You are forced to buy parkhopper passes for 3 or 4 days. We do not use them, but are paying for them with the Disney package. So Disney wants the "Glory" of being the sponsor, but does not want to pay for the event.....that is not reasonable to me.

Did I miss some thing..... Dont you have to pay to go to the Nationals??? Isnt there a $4000 registration fee for the Nationals. now there were 350 teams last year so thats $1.4000.000.
I personaly paid for my family to go to Disney and the stay at the Disney All Star Sports including Hotel room was $1760.00 each. The cost of drinks and food that we had to buy on site because we were so far from any stores is nothing short of a "stick up". The food was the same every night and wasnt that great especialy for the price. My wife was made very sick at one of the restraunts when the chef put Horseradish ( Not on menue) on her plate and the waitress said it was coleslaw, Then while she was in the bathroom being sick they threw out her food. $31.00 worth.
Our team had about 38 people and the cost as said before is about $1760 this includes the air fare. the air fare is about $400.00 so multiply 38 x 1360 = thats over $50,000. now multiply that by all the teams, x350. WOW and we are a small team.
Doesnt F.I.R.S.T. get sponsors to help defer the cost of the nationals, and wouldnt this lower the overall cost. Yep Disney is really hard up and needs that offset $75.00
There should be some compassion for the teams that are struggling $$$. A few years ago there was a team that was so hard up that the couldnt afford to ship their robot home so they took it apart and put it in all their luggage, like to see that happen today. Not every team has unlimited funds and has great sponsors, shouldnt they be rewarded for getting to Florida and not punished.
And lastly, what about the teams that are from Orlando or close enough to commute do they have to pay the $75.00 because they dont stay at the Disney Hotels???.

$4000 per team plus the $75 per person is not out of line when compared to the cost of doing other things in first. Like Nate said, this arguement has been brought up many times before, and I always can't help but think that even if Disney payed for the whole thing, someone would manage to not be happy with the setup. IMHO, Disney made the best decision out of a lose/lose situation. Either way teams would be upset but to me the way that they are doing it is actually the most fair.

~Tom Fairchild~, who thinks that some people don't give Disney enough credit for what they do to help FIRST.

P.S. No, Disney does not make a profit off of FIRST being there.

Shouldn't the $75 per person goto FIRST instead of to Disney? That is what sponsorship is all about isn't it?

The happiest, and most expensive place on earth...

~John who still wants to goto nationals, even if his team doesn't make it/can't afford it right now

Are there any published financial statements indicating what it costs FIRST and Disney to prepare for and run the competitions? Such information might help us determine who is "right" in this discussion.

Believe it or not FIRST folks are not particularly good Disney customers.

From OUR point of view we pay for passes that we don't use, but from Disney's point of view, we are spend thrifts that don't share the wealth that other typical Disney customers spread around so freely.

Yes, Disney is making money on us. But in total, it is not as much as you might think. Remember, if we were not taking up space, they would likely have their hotels full of folks that spend about $400 per day per family in their parks -- I spend NOTHING in the parks.

In the end, I think that Disney is a huge net supporter of FIRST. The money they make off of us offsets some of their costs, but I don't suppose it comes anywhere close to them breaking even.

In the long run, I am sure that Disney will not be the home of the Championship Event. But for now, we get more than we give. Even with a surcharge on off-site stays.

Joe J.

I have to agree with Joe.. The first thing you learn in economics is that things cost more than just what you see.. How many of us act like tourists when we're in Disney?? How many of us spend the money on souveniers and the like that we would if we went down only once every 5 years or so..

There is documentation of what Disney donates to FIRST, the event fee is charged to anyone who stays at a non-Disney hotel and attends an event in Disney, and if you really think about it, the 75.00 is only a fraction of what they could be making if, as Joe said, a tourist came and spent a day..

In the two years I've gone to Disney with FIRST, I know for a fact that I have spent less than what I did when I went there on vacation with family.. Disney does alot, but they won't be our home forever.. Enjoy it while it lasts..

Do you know something I don't know
 

Joe, Rob

Do you guys know something that most of us don't know about future plans for the FIRST competition, or are you just stating a general "nothing is forever."

TIA

What is the link at FIRST where it says all of this?

Wow... heated debate here. :D

Well, for veteren teams, I think it is ok but for rookie teams, I think it is bad news. Many rookie teams have barely the budget to build a robot and compete it in the regionals. Asking them for an extra $75 per person is a little hefty I think.

For example, our team has been helping a rookie team this year and they can only make it into the regionals because they don't have the money. Many teams pick a non-Disney package because it is cheaper. If you have to pay $75 extra per person, it defeats the purpose.

Anyways, I don't think it is a great idea. Hopefully, next year, FIRST will have enough sponsors to cover this cost.

I would have to say also that this 75.00 fee is a huge load of crap why do you pay a 4,000 dollar entry fee for nationals if you are going to be hit up with this kind of stuff. Rember this year you have to be in a reagional before you go to nationals so you already paid once. OH yea and since i worked for disney there is a band on the f*** word FREE. So be assured that anything that disney does they are never giveing anything away. Ex: i am willing to bet you that the concessions at the event alone more that pays for the event. Come on 5.00 for a hot dog that is like 400% profit and i am sure they would love to to waste you meal ticket on that crap. Also you are not going to use disney transportation because you not staying in a dinsey hotel and if they are using the transportation system it is because they are going to buy something, because again disney does nothing for FREE. If you have no ticket to parks or hotel there is no reason for using the busses.

Just looking in my trusty crystal ball...
 

I have no inside knowledge of anything that tells me that FIRST and Disney will part ways some day.

I am really just thinking and hoping outloud...

Right now, Disney is a net positive for FIRST, in terms of support and in terms of credibility -- having the Nationals... ...er ah... Championship Event at Disney gives FIRST a certain amount of "they must be somebody if they are associated with Disney" appeal.

In the long run, FIRST will not need this PR boost from Disney. In the long run, if FIRST is as successful as I am hoping FIRST will be, cities will bid to host the FIRST Championship the same way that cities now bid to host the Superbowl, the All-star game, and the NCAA tourney. In such a bidding process, I don't suppose that Disney will find it worth the money to put together a winning bid -- Cities like Detroit, NYC, New Orleans, Chicago, Baltimore, Miami, Houston, etc. will have much more at stake if they win the bid than Disney could ever hope to make on the sorry business we bring to the Magic Kingdom*.

That is the reason why I think that it is very likely that the days of Championships being held at Disney are numbered.

Joe J.

*I really mean that by the way, we are terrible customers for Disney -- the fact that we don't go into the park is not a good thing from their perspective -- not going into the park means we are not spending our MONEY in the park -- I am not saying that Disney does not make money on our visit but that they don't make what a typical Disney customer would make them AND they have to build us a $3M complex in order to get us to come at all -- Believe me, we are by no means the goose that lays golden eggs at least from Disney's perspective.

Joe i have to disagree with you disney makes a fortune off of first

The $4000 event registration fee goes to FIRST, partially to cover the expenses that FIRST has to pay to Disney, but also to help cover the cost of the kit and FIRST's operating expenses for the year. Keep in mind that FIRST is a non-profit organization.
If you look at the prices at the Disney concession at the event site compared to the rest of the parks, the prices are comparable. Disney is actually doing a service to us by not forcing us to travel into the parks for meals, but rather bringing a meal option to us.

The reference to transportation being part of the $75 event fee is for those teams who book outside of the FIRST/Disney package, but stay at a hotel where a package is offered. Keep in mind that not all FIRST/Disney package hotels are on Disney property. Therefore, there is a special FIRST bus running to the event site, and there is no way to distinguish between a team who bought inside the package and one who bought outside of it, therefore Disney is forced to assume(sometimes incorrectly, I'll admit) that these teams are using the transportation.

Joe's main point, which I happen to agree with him on, is not saying that Disney does not make money off of FIRST. Rather, he is saying that when compared to an average tourist visiting Disney, they do not make as much off of FIRST participants. As he mentions, due to our time spent in the event village, we have little, if any time to visit the parks, which means we are not feeding money into the gift shops and other additional expenses that we would otherwise spend on if all of our time was spent in the parks. Also, Disney has to put more money into our visit than they do for their average visitor. The event site(the figure they always give about the carpeting being enough to carpet X homes sticks in my head as one example., and after the abuse I've seen it take, I imagine large parts of it, if not all of it, have to be replaced every year), the extra busses to the hotels directly to the event site, the displaced Disney employees helping out at the event site rather than their usual position, the fireworks and other pyrotechnics at closing ceremonies, the DJ, food, and staff to manage the wrap party,... I could go on for quite a while, but I think the point is made. Does Disney make some money off of us? Definitely...is it nearly as much as they would make if we were all going there for vacation? I think not.

Nate i used to work for disney they are not loseing a dime trust me. And if disney could not make money on the conessions they would not be there, you can take that to the bank. Ex:disney chrages 3.00 dollars for a large coke it costs them .05 cents because coke does not charge them for syrup or cups. And your right you pay 4000 for the kit how ever at nationals that is the 2nd you are paying that price. I also do not get the bus thing you are talking about unless a team walks into wdw property to get a bus, how to you think they are going to get on the property. They going to have to take there own bus to epcot.

Hey we have an Awesome facility right here in the Motor city to host the Championship, and I think the City of Pontiac would be thrilled to let us pay $4000 per team to use this former pig skin astro turf white elephant! :D

Okay this is not an arguement.
I just need to know the link on the FIRST website where it talks about the $75 ok. Thats it no arguement.

Hey guys FIRST has to pay for employees all year round. Thats where alot of money goes.

Bottom Line
 

I think the last figure I heard for the bottom line was 3.5 Million Dollars that Disney spends to support this event. With the hard times some of these industries have expereinced, why shouldn't they try to reduce their cost to support this event. Although I certainly understand your thinking on this, I don't think that Disney is being unreasonable in asking us to support just a little more of the actual cost of this event. Hats off to your team for taking that many people to the competition.

Tim Gates

From FIRST Manual...
 

Page 7 of "admin_dray.pdf" (Available Here )

I think it was in other documents from FIRST as well but this is a good start.

Joe J.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/DisneyTeamHotels.pdf

At the FIRST page you just click on "Championship Event" and then "Hotels" at the top... Everything is listed right there...

Paying $75 is nothing compared to $325.

The thing is though, the $75 fee is for people that DO NOT stay at Disney hotel, so that makes the argument about Nationals participants taking up space pretty nill. It's true that some buses and large chunk of parking rooms are taken up for the purpose of FIRST competition, but exactly how many people go to Disney World via rental cars/personal cars and take advantage of that parking space? If I remember correctly, large traffic of busses at earlier in the morning (when most of the pit crews attend the pit area) aren't used that much by ordinary tourist, and also the set-up fee for the competition itself is paid by FIRST. (This is not an accurate info, just stuff i got from word of mouth). The only thing that leaves is the cost for the after-competition team party that take place exclusively for the FIRST attendants, but again, not all teams participate in that event.
$75 may not seem like a lot of money, but there are teams participating out of not-so-financially lucky places, and those team's team members along with the team itself might not have the budget to pay those $75 per member fee. From my perspective, that $75 should be covered by Disney as a form of Disney sponcership.

Let’s try a little math…
 

OK, here is an attempt to show that the event fee is not only justified and reasonable, but it is actually a very good deal for those involved. I also want to try to get away from emotional responses, and stick to quantifiable values.

Let’s start with a few initial assertions:

Cost of the National Championship event: $2,500,000 (many estimates of this cost have been publicly discussed, many of which are higher. But let’s stick with the most conservative for now).

Teams attending the Nationals: 260 (from the FIRST website)

Registration cost for Nationals: $4000 per team

Now lets assume that EVERY PENNY of the registration costs are actually available to pay for just the Nationals, and some percentage is not required to support other FIRST activities and operations throughout the year. We know this is not the case, but we will take the most conservative option for this discussion. Then the income generated through team registrations for the National Championship comes to $1,040,000.

That means that there is still $1,460,000 that has to be generated through means other than registration fees to cover the costs of the event.

As has been pointed out in the discussion above, FIRSTers attending the Nationals are not normal tourists. We don’t dump as much cash into Disney as a typical park guest. Our presence at Disney, and utilizing their resources, without infusing cash into the system represents a very real lost "opportunity cost" to Disney (if you haven’t yet, you will learn about opportunity cost in undergrad Economics - take the course, there is a lot of good information in there). It is not appropriate to ask that Disney absorb both this opportunity cost and the shortfall in the required funding for the event - one of those expenses has to be passed on to us.

Now let’s make one assumption: each team has about 35 members attending the event. There are lots of teams that show up with just 10 people, but there are also many that show up with 70 (this thread started with a team that brings 100). 35 is a reasonable first-order average number, based on what has been observed for the past several years of looking at the cheering sections, crowds in the pits, groups in the stands during the awards, etc. Multiply by 260 teams, and you get 9100 team attendees. Round up to 10,000.

Based on that, teams attending the competition SHOULD be kicking in $146 per person over and above their registration costs to cover the full cost of the National Championship event. This cost is independent of where they stay, whether or not they use the Park Hopper Pass, etc. This is also a conservative estimate – the actual event cost could easily be much higher, the portion of the registration fees going to this event is certainly much lower, which results in a much higher event cost per person.

It is noted that there is not a lot of precision to these numbers, but there does not have to be. To first order, the "additional event fee" is really only paying for about half of the services provided to each team member by Disney, after subtracting the elements funded by the registration fee (including building the event venue, bringing in required services and equipment, staff payroll, supplies and materials, wrap party, etc.). Under almost any definition, paying half price for a provided service is a good deal!

None of us are anywhere near naïve enough to believe that Disney swallows this cost out of the goodness of their hearts. Take it as a given that they recover the balance through things like concessions, etc. But the reality is that the event costs money, the event registrations do not cover that cost, and the event attendees need to make up the difference somehow.

So, are there any ways out of this? I happen to believe that the event fees are a reasonable approach. But others obviously don’t, so let me suggest a few alternatives and see what people think might be "better" approaches.

1 - Change the structure of the "Disney package deal" so that it does not include the event fee that is buried within the cost. Make this cost an explicit charge to every team member attending the event, whether they take the Disney package or not.

2 - Re-calculate the registration costs to cover the full price of the event, and eliminate additional participation fees. If that happens, then registration for the Nationals should be around $9600 per team (if you include inflation, it will end up at a nice even $10,000 per team).

3 - Charge an entrance fee at the gate (step one: build a gate) to all team members, guests, visitors, and family members. Remember, you have to make up about $1.5 million, so the entry fee may be as much as $100 per person (assuming the head count goes as high as 15,000 by adding in other park visitors, etc.).

4 - Go back to the system in place last year, which means all the teams purchasing the Disney package keep subsidizing the teams that are not paying their fair share for the event. Teams not buying the Disney package basically force the other teams to pay their bills. To cover the costs, the Disney package price will probably go up even more, making the burden worse for those teams that abide by the rules. But who ever said life was fair?

5 – Spread the National event costs evenly across all registrations. There were 1079 event registrations this year (from the FIRST web site, total teams registered for all regionals and nationals). With growth, estimate 1200 event registrations next year. That would mean each team registration will cost about $1200 more per event.

Are any of these what you really want?

Rather than continuing an endless thread about "Disney is picking my pocket and I don’t think it is fair" could I make a suggestion? If you are offended by the event fee structure this year, then make a constructive, realistic suggestion for an alternative, fair and do-able mechanism by which the costs of the National Championship event can be structured. Then make sure you take responsibility to get your suggestion to the right people at FIRST to have it seriously considered. Doing anything less than that is just whining.

It is a lot more fun to find a solution to a problem than to just complain about one.

-dave

--------------

An engineer with spare time during lunch is a dangerous thing.

Some of the hotels included in the FIRST/Disney package are not on Disney property, rather they are a "good neighbor" hotel which Disney has a partnership with for the National Competition. Normally, Disney would not provide transportation to these hotels, as they are not on the property. However, as a part of the FIRST/Disney package, Disney sends busses out to these neighbor hotels as a convenience for the teams staying there.

NOTE: I had more I was going to say here, but when I hit reply, Dave's post immediately above mine summed it up nicely. I left this part in as it explained something which there was some confusion about regarding the bussing I was referring to.

Re: Just looking in my trusty crystal ball...
 

Where did you get 3 million? Anyways they don't buy it they rent the equipment. Hidden along the walls are little tags of a rental place.

$75*50,000 (Roughly)= 3.75 million dollars. For a "donated event" thats not bad chunck of change.

Now, I know the economy isn't what is was in the 1999 boom, and ABC/Disney is loosing a lot of money. But I hardly consider $75 a bargin. Disney has to relize that most teams just don't have that kind of money. Something like $20 per person and $20 if you want to go to the party is more reasonable. That would be $20*50,000 would be about a million dollars. I can see a million dollars for both the set up of the pits and set up of the competition field. And a million dollars or less for the Epcot party. I mean most of Epcot is closed, and the dance party is crowded, and they do put out way too much food. So I can see that a million dollars can cover the party.

Where do you get 50,000 people paying the $75 dollars? The main outdoor arena only seats somewhere around 22,000 people and that is barely full during opening cerimonies and you have to figure that a lot of those people are family members and other non-participants. A more accurate estimate of the number of people paying the $75 is 9,100 (260 teams @ 35 members per team). This results in a generated revenue of $682,000, quite a lot less than your figure.

I am a Disney Passholder.

I was at Animal Kingdom last weekend.

My kids have every Disney Video there is.

But...

Disney is ripping FIRST teams off by charging teams $75 for "not" staying on Disney property.

The Disney packages are a great deal.... IF you weren't going to be at a FIRST competition all day. Basically, Disney is giving teams a discount on the park tickets and charging full price for the hotel rooms.

We can pay less than $150 bucks a night for a room that 6 students can sleep in. We don't need transportation (Bus trip from 40 miles away). We don't need theme park tickets (our team is watching matches). We don't need meals (I can feed students for $3 a head at Dominoes). For $75 bucks you can by a theme park ticket, a T-shirt, and a coke. If you are a Florida resident you can get a 4 day pass for only $24 dollars more. Still think its a bargain?

For the KSC regional a tent is rented for around $50K that houses 40 teams. Same quality, just smaller.

Basically, all our team gets from Disney at the FIRST events is a large parking lot, electricity, friendly greeters with light sticks and 2 hours in 1/3 of the Epcot park. Oh yeah... Tacos.

I love saying FIRST is the largest event held on Disney property. I love Disney. Unfortunately, Disney is treating FIRST teams like a relative who has stayed too long and worn out their welcome.

Ok we can argue all day about the cost of this but the truth is that no one really knows the cost.

Does anyone have the Disney Hotel room price list from last year?
If Disney really is spreading the cost then the difference between this years packages and last years should be abput $75. If it isnt then something funny is going on.

This disgusts me
 

I've been sitting here reading all these posts getting madder and madder. How many people can honestly say that going to the "Championship Event", In Disney , is not one of the most enjoyable experiences of the robotics season. Disney is providing FIRST a place to host their competition and people aren't staying on their property. Disney is a bussiness, first and foremost. They are out to make a profit. I personally am grateful for such a great place to hold the event and would gladly pay the extra 75 dollars to stay off the property. Disney is willing to make a profit cut for us to be there, they close off all of Epcot for the wrap party, and everyone who is their has a lot of fun. If you don't want to pay the extra money, Disney could easily say that teams wanting to compete have to stay on the property wich would cut the number of teams that could compete significantly, and from all the complaining that came up when FIRST set their restrictions earlier this year, that wouldn't make anyone any happier. Disney is in a lose/lose situation here so cut them some slack. Be thankful for what we've got. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. And to those of you complaining about the cost of food, IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN AT THE REGIONALS! That goes back to companies trying to make a profit.

I am lucky we are not going to the nationals ( odd team) there is no way disney should be treating FIRST as 3rd class people

I have been going to the national for the past 6 years and we made out better everytime we went not using the package deal. but a deal that disney offers every non FIRST group.

to give you example we are going to disney after the KSC regional we got a 4 day park hopper for $138 and a room for $94 a night that is $232.00 per person with 4 per room Disney cost is $389. We saved $157

you take this price an times it by the students we are taken 16 kids that is saving $2562.00 just on the kids alone

for a single room for 4 nights with a 4 day park hopper it cost us $514 disney charging $688. this is a saving of $174

So just looking at the numbers, Disney is taking FIRST teams for a ride. But you have to know FIRST gets so many rooms for free.

this is just the start I can go on forever with all the stuff disney does not do for you as a FIRST team compare if you went down and booked your team as something else.

Costs?
 

Our team opted for the 5 day package at Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort.

The cost? $443.69 per person assuming four people to a room.

If I were to book this same thing independently, accounting for everything included in the package, for four people, this is what I came up with:

Room: Regular season rate of $154/night. We'll round to $160 and be generous about hotel taxes and things.

So, one hotel room for four nights - $616.00

Park Media: Four day park hopper pass, adult rate - $203.52 +tax. I'm ignoring tax.

So, passes for four people - $814.08

Food: The package provides for 3 breakfast coupons and 3 lunch/dinner coupons per person. I'm assuming prices, and being a bit generous here. So, I'm making each meal coupon a value of $10.

6 meals, four people, $10 per meal - $240.00

Commemorative Gift: We get a t-shirt.

4 T-shirts @$20 - $80.00

Grand total? $1750.08
Price per person? $437.52

What're we paying again? $443.69. ~$5 more.

So, as best as I can see (unless I'm overlooking something huge here), things on the Disney end of things seem Kosher. This neglects to mention of course, the costs passed on to each person to cover the costs associated with the event's infrastructure, and all of the rippling costs that Disney and FIRST presumably absorb.

Seems like a good deal to me.

If you do your homework you will find that the prices you have are not the prices you can get.

4 day park pass $138.00 Rooms at allstar resort $94.00

Commemorative Gift: you can get anything you want in the book they give you.

You should call Disney youth group. they have all the prices you need.

you can save per person on tickets $65.00

food coupons are $9.00 a ticket. 9 x 24 =$196.00 save $24.00

If you are a school that is a non-tax you do not have to pay any taxes.

I don't know the price of the room but I can bet you it will be at least $40 less a day than you have listed. 40 x 4 =$160.00

given you a total saving of $111.00 per person off of your plan.

I do not think you have done your home work

I don't know how many people on your team is going but if you have 10 than that means you could of saved $1,110.00

do you get pool side rooms? Do you have to pay to store your bags for your team? Do you have to wait in a line somewhere else than the front desk to get your rooms?

those are all the negative things you will have to deal with in your package if you book using FIRST name.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion, but I have to remark that I have noticed that in this post most of the arguments for the extra fee are coming from the teams that can afford to stay in disney in the first place...... and while you may have a secure sponsor and a large enough budget, there are many teams out there that just cant afford 75 more dollar per person..... what happens to them? they eventually drop out.... didnt Dean say himself that the way to keep long term sponsors was to keep the costs down?

you see, the teams that dont stay inside the park would already be staying in the park if they could afford it because its much much closer.... trust me its no fun driving for 45 minutes to the competition at 7am...... the problem is we cant afford it and this 75$ per person fee is disneys way at getting back at us because we dont have the money to stay in thier park. I understand disney couldnt just throw the party or run the competition without financial benefits.... but out $4000 entrance fees should more than cover any costs for that. Besides the entire competition brings a surge of business to disney and they also have a monopoly over the very unreasonably priced concession stands

i would think that FIRST would want to spread its influence to poor intercity high schools and provide opportunities where there are so few...... but this fee is just one more thing working against that

in my opinion disney is not exercising the gracious professionalism that it is supposed to be promoting
i hope they rethink this one

Becky

also about the prices.... there is no way my team could afford the proposed 443 dollars per person........... we stay at an inexpensive hotel thats a little bit of a distance from disney that costs nowhere near 160 per night......... and we go to the supermarket and make sandwhiches for lunch to cut the costs.... we come out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower than that

FIRST is probably a tax write off for disney as well.... not to mention advertising (i mean, arent they making a movie about it?)

Disney is in this to make money and nothing else. They only do this to make money. Everyone may say oh no there not making money. They are a major corporation and wouldnt do anything without signifigant financial gains.

Ok, i've gone through all the posts and i've got something I want to add. I havent heard of this fee until now and I must say i am outraged! I live in Orlando....less than 20 minutes away from Disney. Now they are telling me I need to pay them $75 because i'm not staying in thier hotels??? You've got to be kidding, this is just rediculous. First of all, there is no way in my right mind that I'd pay for a hotel when I live so close, AND even if I did stay in a hotel, there is no way I'd pay for Disney's outragous prices. When you consider who they are charging...even those who live locally....it starts getting silly.

A few things. . .

First, I realize that there are discounts available, both to regular guests as well as groups. I chose the baseline Disney numbers merely as a quick comparison, as I don't have the time to shop around and explore all possible savings.

Did you book as a group? I'd imagine you did, as you'd be hard pressed to get prices that low on parkhopper passes. Also, it's worthy to mention that the passes given to groups are different than those given to the general public.

My numbers revolved around staying at Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort, a moderate category hotel. The All-Star Resorts are a value resort and are cheaper by default.

We're not paying a whole lot above what someone booking at published rates might. We are a group, so those same discounted rates are in effect for our team as those you may have gotten. As such, I'd consider that the difference goes to subsidizing the cost of the event, which is what this whole thing is about anyway. Our package subsidizes the cost of the event, while booking separately does not.

Bottom line? We're happy with out choice, and even with paying a bit extra for the convenience and experience of staying in one of Disney's resorts.

i'm on a rookie team. we have been fundraising tons because we are going to nations. we are staying in the sports hotel inside disney. were lucky we have such great sponsorers

Some teams don't have the choice of having the money to pay for the better hotel or even the low price hotel.

The point is a group should be a group no matter what group you are with like the FIRST group.

the point is teams are paying $4,000 and getting very little. some team have only 10 people going to the nationals while some bring 100s. but they all pay the $4000 fee plus another fee disney is putting on them.

If disney want FIRST to be at disney they need to put in more.


in the past the shows and the food at disney were great. last year show was not the top ten on my list.

everything comes down to money. so tell these kids that if you want to make it in this world you better do what you can to get money because with out it you will not see the big show.


I can go on about this subject but I will bite my lip and move on.

im sure every team would love to stay at a hotel that supports FIRST........ but the main point it they dont all have the money to do it and no matter how you look at it even with group discounts, disney is way more expensive.......... this 75 dollar fee is being put on the teams that cant afford it (no matter how much they wish they could)

A group is a group is a group. Booking through the FIRST package, we are being assessed group discount rates just as you might be if you booked outside of the package. The only reason we pay more than you is because our team is being charged an additional fee to cover the event costs. Your team is not being charged this same fee within the price of your package, so FIRST and Disney add an additional charge of $75. In effect, it seems similar to me, so I don't understand what the big deal is.

Your $4000 entry fee is assessed irrespective of the size of your team. Just as your initial $5000 does nothing to cover any travel costs that may be associated with attending a regional, the same is true of Nationals, of course. This, I believe, is the most fair way of handling this. I'd much prefer it over being charged an entry fee based on your team size. . . that would, after all, very effectively limit how many students this program involves.

I don't know FIRST's budget offhand, but I feel that I can pretty safely say that very, very little of the entry fees are passed on the regional developers. There are folks around here that know more about that than I, though. So, it's really up to those charged with planning the events that need to somehow gather enough funds to do it. If Disney chooses to cover those costs by assessing a small fee, that's fine with me.

Further, I have been quite satisfied with my experience at Nationals in both 2000, and 2001. If you and your team have not been as impressed, you always reserve the right to not attend. After all, money speaks, right?

Finally, I'd beg to differ about your final note. Everything does *not* come down to how much money you have. It's what you do with it (or without) that counts.

you seem to be missing the point........ as impressed as everybody is with the competition, not everyone can afford $75 dollars a person or to stay on disney property....... and its not because we arents spending the money wisely, its because we dont have enough money
i mean it would be one thing if a team was complaining about the fee and showed up with a titanium robot........ but thats not the kind of team that this is affecting

and you are absolutely right this does limit the amount of students that can attend........ pretty much any team thats been struggling by without a sponsor wont be able to afford this....... and intercity schools where opportunities are few to begin with

you go tell those people they have the choice to go or not go when they cant even afford to replace a peice of plywood or make tshirts


i do understand that there are teams that bring massive amounts of members and disney is trying to make it fair by having them pay more since they brought more people....... but maybe the way to do this is instead to have the registration fee cover the driving team and 5 other support members so at least every team can compete without extra costs and have any additional team members pay

A few VERY good points were made in this post, and based on the knowledge I have from working on both sides of the coin(team member & event staff) the past few years, I would like to add a few things. As was mentioned above, there are two distinct types of funding needed to attend any FIRST event. First is the registration fee, which is charged the same amount regardless of team size or any other aspect. The money generated through these registration fees gets pooled to cover FIRST's expenses for the entire year, not just during the event season. After all, with the promary source of income for FIRST being these registration fees(I know they have grants and other funding coming in, but I have a feeling 4000 per team per event makes up a substantial part of their yearly budget,) part of it has to go to FIRST as a organization for purposes such as payroll, travel expenses, insurance, and recurring charges(electric bill, etc). When all is said and done, I would be surprised if even half of the amount gathered through entry fees is even available went toward actual event expenses. So, as you can see, it is not realistic to ask FIRST to spread that money out even further, without raising the registration fee.

Also, Michael mentioned the amount of money that actually goes toward the events themselves. While I don't know the numbers exactly for Disney, I have a rough idea of the numbers for a regional event. Last year, one of the regionals had 42 teams competing. Assuming the unlikely event that 100% of the registration fees went to the costs of this event, that would be 42x4000=$168,000. However, if my memory serves me correctly, the total amount for the event needed was $250,000, and the local committee was instructed to raise half of that through local sponsorship. Meaning that only $125,000/42=$2976 of each team's event fee went directly to the costs of the event. Note that this does not include the extra costs for transportation for the FIRST staff to the event, as well as the shipping costs to get the field and other equipment to the site(as far as I know).

Now, one thing to remember about this is that these figures are for a regional event, where all of the infrastructure(building, etc.) is already in place. The fact that EVERYTHING, from the bathrooms, to the chairs, to the lighting, to the electricity, has to be brought to us at Disney must cause this costs to skyrocket. As some people have mentioned in this post, the costs of Nationals to FIRST and Disney have always been offset by an extra charge figured into the cost of the hotel/park package. However, many teams have found, in looking for the best deal, it was cheaper to book outside of the provided packages, as any other booking did not include the expenses of the event itself. So, many teams have booked with the better deal, perhaps not thinking about what that additional cost may have gone toward. Now, the uproar seems to be, IMHO, that these teams, who have enjoyed the luxury of having the better deal for seemingly the same package these past few years, are in essence being "caught," and being asked to pay their fair share again. With the economy in a downturn like it is now, was it the best time to start this policy? Perhaps not, but it also needs to be kept in mind that may have been the exact reason it was started.

Flame away if you must, but I personally feel that the event fee, as I have stated many times over on this board, is the most fair way to handle the rising costs of the National Competition. The notification of FIRST's intent with this fee was made very early in the season, so teams could plan accordingly. While I'm not claiming that makes the money any easier to come across, it seems you were given fair warning, and at this point, many of these posts are repeating what was said previously, and arguing over something that most likely will not be changed this year. Therefore, unless clarification is asked regarding something I have said in this post, this will be my last in this thread. I'm sure that in the time I have spent writing this, everything else has been marked as read, so it should be interesting getting to see what else is new on the board since I was here yesterday afternoon.

Disney is a multi-billion dollar business. It seems reasonable that they would be willing to sacrifice a million dollars in return for what they're getting. First, hosting a robotics event at their own expense is great P.R. for the company. Second, Disney has a huge market for engineers, which FIRST churns out in droves. How many engineers have been hired by Disney out of FIRST? FIRST is a non-profit organization. Disney should be able to write off almost half of what they're paying out. Please let me know if I'm wrong...

[quote]If a team is not staying at the Disney hotels and not buying park passes, the $75 per person is a bargain. How much does it cost to build the stadiums, pit tents, etc? How much does it cost to run the busses that all teams use? How much does it cost to put on the show at the closing ceremony and do the 'wrap party'? I don't know the answer, but it is plenty. This cost of the competition site is subsidized by the hotel/park pass/meal ticket packages, and it's only fair that teams who don't buy the packages should pay their share of the cost.[quote]


i know his is probably repeating someone else but this is in response to Kit. FIRST pays Disney to rent out EPCOT and also to pitch up the tents. Parking is also paid for, s Disney is competely compensated. do not think of them as some poor company that is just trying to make ends meet. They are a multi national, multi million dollar company that proabably makes a crap load without teh $75/person(or else they wouldnt let FIRST keep having the competition.). Disney is just trying to exploit more money out of FIRST and the teams because it knows the teams will pay.


Although my team is burdened by this, i am sure for some smaller, less sponsered teams, this 75 dollars a day is a killer. Trying to come up with the other fees must be near impossible and then to habe to pay 75 dollars a day or 400 a day to stay at a Disney hotel is outrageous

everyone has thier opinion about this.... but even if there isnt enough money for the competition (which disney undoubtedly has, its just up to them not to spend it)...... the $75 is most certainly not a bargain...... the reason the team isnt staying in the disney park in the first place is that they dont have the money to do so....... everyone should do thier part, this is true..... but if you expect an underfunded team from a place where members cant even pay for the trip out of thier pockets to pay the same amount as a team with a big sponsor behind it, then you are going to lose those underfunded teams, and make them feel bitter because they cant afford to have the same opportunities

its pretty obvious that the nationals have overgrown the capacity anyway....... hopefully first will think about splitting it into two seminationals........ this way disney wouldnt bear the full burden

scouting is getting impossible, and success is becoming more and more based on luck

[quote]Originally posted by Perseus

Quote:

Although my team is burdened by this, i am sure for some smaller, less sponsered teams, this 75 dollars a day is a killer. Trying to come up with the other fees must be near impossible and then to habe to pay 75 dollars a day or 400 a day to stay at a Disney hotel is outrageous

Just to clarify this - the fee of $75 is assessed on a per student basis, rather than a per day basis. So, it's actually ~$16 day, assuming a four night stay.

Again, by choosing an option outside of the offered package, you are *NOT* being assessed any penalty as such! You are simply being asked to pay for your fair share of the costs of the event village.

If, for whatever reason, your team cannot afford to stay on Disney property, and cannot afford the additional $75 per person, you cannot afford to go to Nationals. It's that simple. You're not being cheated, or swindled, or otherwise treated unfairly.

We would've liked to attend one more regional, but we couldn't afford it. Are the hotels ripping us off because we don't have the money to pay them? Not really.

FIRST is Running a Surplus
 

OK, I no longer have the 2002 competition program book, but I do remember looking at the fiscal numbers published in it regarding FIRST Robotics. The numbers showed FIRST running about a $800,000 surplus this last fiscal year, quite a bit more than in previous years, and in fact they were in debt only a few years ago. So why this new $75 fee per person when FIRST is better off financially now than it ever has been before? Why are they putting this extra strain on a team's budget (not to mention personal budgets)?

Re: FIRST is Running a Surplus
 

While I don't have a program book in front of me to verify these numbers(I'll look over the one I have at home tonight), I have a feeling that any surplus may not be as easily usable as it may seem. In many cases, when an organization donates funds, they do it under the condition that those funds are earmarked for a specific purpose. So while looking at the raw numbers may indicate a surplus, the reality may be that those funds may be required to be used for other purposes than funding the Championship, such as advertising, travel(yes, a substantial amount of money goes toward transporting the FIRST staff to the various events), and new team recruiting. Also, while FIRST Robotics may have had a surplus, what about the other branches of FIRST? If one of those other branches was in debt, I'm sure that funds get redirected from one branch to another to help balance things out.

Here's how I see it.
 

Look, we don't know how much it costs to put on the championship event at EPCOT nor how much Disney makes or loses in the deal. I don't see any point in speculating about it.

Why don't we just trust Dean and FIRST to strike a reasonable deal with Disney.

I'm just glad that FIRST exists and I will continue to support FIRST on whatever terms FIRST feels are appropriate!

Mickey HAS opened his wallet
 

There is no way that FIRST would ever let Disney turn a profit. I'd bet that Disney wouldn't even allow themselves to try to make money on an event like this. I very much agree with the argument that the costs and fees associated with the National Competition are only as much as they must be. Disney knows that FIRST is a good thing for themselves and the rest of the planet, and surely they're only asking what they must in order to put on an event of this magnitude.

Now what fairy wonderland are you living in.

Disney not turn a profit? I own Disney stocks and I know if disney started to do this they would lose all the trust in there Stock holders.

I suspect that HotWheels2002 meant "Disney does not turn a profit on the FIRST National Event." I'm sure he/she is aware that Disney is a for-profit corporation.

As far as whether or not Disney makes money on FIRST, we don't know, and maybe Disney doesn't really know. I suspect their aim is to pretty much break even, and figure that they get some positive PR from it. When you get down to it, positive PR is the reason a lot of the corporate sponsors are involved. They are helping some kids, and assume they may, over time, get the services of some of these kids as employees, but PR is a big factor in corporate sponsorship of teams.

If disney did this for all the good causes that the see every year they would go under.


Just look at all the different groups that go down to disney. FIRST is just one of many. They will make a dollar off of you just as they would anybody else that has a group that goes down.

They have other programs that look at getting good help at disney.


There are other places that would pay to have this group play in thier back yard.

FIRST's clarification on the $75 fee
 

Yesterday or today, FIRST came out with the following clarification on who has to pay the $75 fee if they are not staying on Disney property:

"Disney team member fee: We've received a number of questions from people about which "team members" need to pay the $75 fee for teams staying outside of the Disney package. Basically, a team member is a student or coach directly associated with the competition - i.e. helping in the pit on the robot, accepting awards as a team representative, or competing on the field. ponsors and parents/family as spectators are excluded from the
fee."

Microeconomics
 

I thought that it was obvious that I was talking only about Disney's relation to the FIRST National Championship event, and not about how Disney makes it's billions during the rest of the year. Now I have not seen the numbers, but I am quite certain that Disney is taking an initial economic hit (which is then probably made up for by the publicity gained from the event). I am also not arguing that Disney is being purely philanthropic; Obviously they want the extra dollars gained from the FIRST publicity to outweigh their costs for putting in the event.

I guess the fairy wonderland that I'm living in is one where oligopolistic firms seek a long run supply/demand equilibrium point that at least breaks even.

Unfortuanately, nobody will do anything for free. Your payment might be (say for mentors) to see your kids doing so well. For engineers it could be to help them have more engineers in the future. For Dean Kamen it might be to help him promote segway (which he always seems to do). For Disney, it is to make some money. I am both sided on this debate. On one hand Disney might make profit but not as much as they could be, as said earlier in this discussion. On the other hand, rookie teams and large teams cant afford it. I am more onto the side of agreeing with it though. Is it fair for a team with 100 people to pay the same as a team that only has enough sponsors for 10? Yes $75 is alot if you put 100 people into that. I think it helps balance it out though. Maybe they should change the registration fee since you do pay at regionals already. The restrictions on going to Nationals are good and bad. Some teams should go but cant cause of restrictions. But restrictions keep it possible to even hold the regional. Another thing I would like to throw into this mix that I saw earlier was about FIRST becoming much larger and more publicized. The public is going the wrong way. They are going more towards battlebots and now they are making some high school battlebots show. Battlebots is educational in a minimal way. Only a few people build it, its serious competition, no second chances, and your not trying to perform advanced tasks, your just spinning a saw, wedging them, or using some pneumatics to flip them. I think CNN or some big network should hold a 30 minute segment, maybe once a week or two showing different competitions. This could bring the nation to notice FIRST more. Many dont know FIRST exists. I'm sure when you tell somebody who has never heard of FIRST, 90% of them say "what is it like battlebots?". This is a terrible vision. A network must try to help publicize us even if it's not that often. To show the better competition and get even more students into this. Which is what FIRST is all about, trying to change the youth from being more into sports but more into things they will actually use. Well that is my 2 cents.

Wow, this has been the most heated debate on the Delphi boards EVER...

Personally, I think FIRST might be growing too large, too quickly. Last year, the Nat's were a mixed blessing, they were somewhat fun, but fustrating, due to the massive amounts of teams.

This year, that's being allieviated somewhat, but still, all rookies can go...


I'm not bashing rookies, but the nationlas are going to be LOADED with unexperianced teams.


I personally am intrigued with the idea that the nationals can be held in aother places (and Mickey does rip people off).

I think ill start a thread on that!

i have to agree with mike on the lack of publicity about FIRST..... i think its starting to go the other way though
this year the NYC regional was swarmed with media, cnn, cbs, and national geographic were there...... also isnt disney making a zoog movie about FIRST?

for now though, i have to say im sick of hearing "is it like battlebots?" as well

The $75 only comes a burden when it is multiplied by an average of about 30 students, engineers, and other people directly related to first. $75*30 people is about $2,250. Ouch! What Disney has to realize is that students will have less money to buy stuff from them. Instead of buying Disney food they will probably go out to buy from somewhere else. Same goes for their malls and other small stores. That $75 could have been used as day pass for their parks. Would it make more sense to have more people, meaning more press, money, etc. Than to have less people, and less money to profit from. If only half a team comes than it would be the same money than if a full team gone and charged a more reasonable rate like $40.