Alrighty, then. I see that my friend here needs a little backup as he is the only sane thinker here besides the people who choose to abstain from the argument.
Lists always seem to be the best for these types of scenerios.
1) The man was obviously thinking before he typed for his argument was well articulated, which is mroe than what I can say for you.
2) Claiming someone to be disrespectful without a sound basis for this accusation is quite a hefty piece of circular logic you use. Not praising the dead people doesn't mean disrespect--nor does putting thier death in proper proportion on the grans scheme of things. They're dead. We understand already. No reason to go running around saying that they were the best people to walk the Earth, and that we should SO remember thier tragic end.
3) You're next coherent paragraph has no useful information. Stop wasting our time.
4) I would certainly hope that today's pinnacle of human technology is still where it was when the last episodes of the original Star Trek was made. There are far more advanced space craft out there, that can lauch a sattilite for a much cheaper cost--but, as yo said they aren't so reusable. Many other spacecraft are on there way to fruition are leagues past those flying fossils that we still use. And I'm sorrry your idealistic view of the universe was shattered when 7 was added to the countless nomber of people dead and 1 was added to the other countless numer of accidents in human history. Trust me, in twenty years, you'll have a hard time remembering the name of the second space shuttle to go boom.
5) The last week of a person's life is rarely encompassing of thier life as a whole. Trying to say that these people are more important than a third of the continent of Africa is ludicrous. I'm sure our economy and fat wallets have benefited much more from the good people at Nike Corporation. And I'm sure we can find many of those people that dies hoding their people's mora majority ideals.
6) Okay, you got a good point in the second paragraph on the second seciton there, but that first paragraph: WHY SHOULD WE COMMEMORATE THE SETBACK OF OUR SPACE PROGRAM? As FAK said--lament, don't mourn.
7) For the record, it's ISS, not IIS. ANd yes, it'll probably take another two years to finish now. :(

And I highly disagree with the whole--lest's not argue on the main board. It's called a forum for a reason. If more than two people want to debate the issue, it's a hell of a lot more efficient than starting a PM circular. It's not like you don't have free time to debate this issue if you have enough time to try to brag about your team's memorial service.
Finally, I will make the same staement I've been saying for years (although, this being my first post here, none of you have heard it in the same words). Imagine the world as a pond. As a drop of water hits the pond, it's reprecussions are less and less important the farther you get outside of its impact. Although, for this visual to work, you have to represent the surface of the water for your connections with other people, socially, economically, or geographically. Making a big deal out of something that doesn't affect you makes no sense, nor does misproprtioning how big a deal you make of someting compared to how it affects you.

Thank you, [SuperDanman]. You are the first person who has taken more than a gut reaction to what I've said. You do make some good points, and I disagree with a couple, but that's natural.

I admit that the tragedy will definitely serve as a learning experience, and I lament the fact that it cost lives. However, it does not set the course of science back. Can you name one intelligent person who honestly did not see the dangers/imperfections of the Space Shuttle before the Colombia was lost? I can assure you that everyone at NASA knew the risks. To paraphrase your own words, "The tragedy comes from the fact that [the obvious fact of our imperfection has been shown]."

Could it have been prevented? Most likely.
Was it a bad thing? Definitely.
Was it earth-shattering? No.
Does it endanger the lives of the crew of the ISS? Only if nobody manages to scrape up a supply mission before August, and the Soyuz re-entry capsule ("lifeboat") fails. Barring emergencies, they're good through July. I admit that the investigations may take longer than that, but, if so, the Russians will probably find a little help getting supply craft together. If that falls through, the Soyuz are approximately as safe as the Shuttle. I think they'll manage.

As for the whole Shuttle, SSTO, reusable comments, there is plenty of talk of other things in the works. I'm not saying that they'll replace the Shuttle this year. Everyone knows that it will take significantly longer just to design, test, and build full-scale a new reusable craft. However, the Space Shuttle is actually significantly more expensive per flight (I'm not sure about per kg) than the disposable options employed today. This is not quite what we want, and there will be more interest in other methods. There is no reason not to continue using the Shuttles (pending investigation results) until they can be replaced. The system may just move a little faster now.

Finally, about my rashness of reply, you're absolutely right. If I'd been thinking clearly, I would have written "probability does not exist when [human lives] are involved." Thank you for calling it to my attention.

If you've read The Great Gatsby, there's a line in it where Meyer Wolfsheim says "Let us learn to show our friendship for a man when he is alive and not after he is dead."

Oh, it's on.
 

Likewise.

You and your friend have moved on. Congratulations. Don't dare presume you're important enough, intelligent enough, or logical enough to tell people when, how, and for how long they should mourn. That, above all else, is the most disrespectful thing you can ever do to a person.

If you think the deaths of these astronauts is no more or less important than anything else that's going on in your lives, that is your prerogative. However, it is disrespectful, cold, and inconsiderate of you to make any attempt, whatsoever, at invalidating the grieving of another individual.

Likewise.

Again, while you may have better things to worry about, there are some people in this world who are genuinely touched by human drama. We're human, after all, and with that comes a number of interesting caveats. We're not perfect. We don't mourn everything, or everyone. We can't. We mourn things that affect us.

If you're not affected by the accomplishments of these astronauts, nor their counterparts, that's fine for you. You're in no place, however, to tell me how I should appreciate, awe, or admonish their work.

In twenty years, I will remember.

Nobody is saying that. At all. If that's what you want to see, that's what you'll see, as it's the only valid basis you could possibly have for drawing these comparisons out.

No individual is any more than important than another. No group is better than another. No race, color, religion, sex, gender, or baseball team has any advantage over any other.

Sadly, I haven't found the opportunity to glimpse into the lives of so many other people on this planet. I am not saying that, for example, one third of Africa's population has accomplished nothing, is worth nothing, and should die without care nor cause. Instead, I'm arguing that, as a single individual, I'm doing the best I can to touch as many lives as possible and to be touched by even more. I want to know every individual that walks on this planet. I want to hear their stories and see their facial expressions and experience their passion.

Because of this unfortunate accident, I am now familiar with seven more people than I was early Saturday morning, February 1, 2003. I mourn, not only for their passing, but because I won't be given another chance to experience them - as people. Nor will anyone else. Similarly, I am touched by and often feel quite the same way about people from all walks of life.

I am a human, and sometimes, I need to make psychological associations with things before I am affected. Emotion, often, does not withstand the rigorous analysis of logic.

Introduce me to the people of Africa, dying of AIDS; or young, queer youth, dying at the hands of their peers; or firefighters facing uncertain danger for the benefit of people that haven't even met yet. Allow me to spend time amongst writers, and artists, and musicians. Give me those opportunities and I'll mourn each of their deaths with the same intensity and passion that I do these seven astronauts. Give me those opportunities and I'll celebrate their lives and achievements just as I do these seven astronauts.

Don't dare tell me, however, that my mourning and sorrow is misplaced, nor that my celebration and amazement is without merit. These were amazing people, as all of us can be. These people may have been doing routine work on a routine shuttle mission, as it has become routine. But, though it hadn't captured our imagination with the same level of excitement that it did at the beginning of the space program, I doubt their work was any less influential, any less rewarding, and any less dangerous. The risks didn't decrease, but they changed.

Mourn their death, celebrate their life, and follow in their footsteps. Do something that makes life better. It doesn't need to be a science experiment on a spacecraft, really. Make someone smile once a day. That'll make a world of difference on its own.

By giving the deaths of thousands less publicity than the deaths of seven astronauts, or by mourning the deaths of seven astronauts openly, we do not seek to invalidate the experience and contribution of anyone else. Instead, we seek to bring awareness and hope to those who have none. We hope that their loss wasn't in vain and that their spirit is awakened inside all of us.

I'm always up for debate. It's healthy and stimulating so long as people can concisely elucidate their position.

Our team's memorial service consists of honoring these astronauts' commitment to expanding the horizons of the human race. We shall display their Mission Patch proudly, not because they accomplished any amazing feat for humanity by their own accord or because they were family or friends, but because they carried with them the spirit of exploration and education and interrogation that drives our efforts forward. For that, we thank them.

Thank you, NASA. Thank you, Columbia. Not only do we remember your seven souls, but we remember our own. We remember your past so that we may move bravely forward into our future.

They did. Is it the same thing as jumping on top of a grenade to save comrades in battle? No. Is it equally noble? Yes. These men and women, along with all astronauts, know acutely the risks associated with their job, but feel that the job to be done is worth the risk. At the time of the launch. about one in 100 space shuttle flights had ended tragically. The astronauts on board the shuttle knew this. They knew that, even with the best efforts of everyone involved, there was a chance they could die on this mission. But they went anyway. They bravely sacrificed their lives.

Do you think that the people in the minivan believe that their destination is worth a one in 100 chance of dying on the trip?

You get respect, first of all, by giving respect when it is due. Try it, you'll be surprised how well it works. And martyrdom isn't the easiest way, it's the hardest.

There's a difference between being "thoughtful" and just being an $@#$@#$@#. And, finally, if you think that human beings are nothing more than a collection of hormones, chemical processes, and electrical systems, then there can be no convincing you that the deaths of these people was tragic and worth your attention.

I came to this thread expecting to read about the tragedy of the Space Shuttle and instead I see a lot of childish bantering. PLEASE STOP

Somehow, people have managed to basically take any newstory in this forum and turn it into a self-righteous, close-minded, tear ever sentence apart, argument that is definately not in the spirit of first or even basic common courtesy. I think that if you really have a problem with someone's statements, talk to them personally so all this bickering and side-taking can come to an end.

Its unfortunate that many people are not recognized until they die tragically but let that underscore the pain that many feel. One of the bittersweet things we can learn from sad events is how fortunate we are....we have far strayed from the original message and its time to go back. Thank you

Its sad enoguh to lose people you know....its even sadder to lose them when they're still alive.

clcik here

First about the IIS thing - it was late and I was in the middle of coding some php and setting up my server, which runs on IIS (Internet Information Services - Microsoft's basic webserver). IIS. ISS. You're right - I did a few Freudian slips.

I responded with such hostility because of the environment you decided to share your opinions in. FIRST is a buncha people really excited about technology - the space shuttle program is what we all looked up to (yeah, it's old, but since there STILL aren't any reusable crafts capable of transporting humans into and out of space, I'd say it is still pretty advanced). I saw what you basically did here comparable to telling a mother who's only son was just killed in a car accident that her son was a jerk - it's far from what she wants to hear at the moment.

For that reason, I stand by what I said about stopping this discussion right now. This thread shouldn't go the way of the locked. Check your PMs - I will not continue this in public.

I agree with everything you just said except for the last paragraph, Super Damman, and before I get to verdyw's post, I'll explain why.
Nothing ever EVER gets resolved by quietly shuffling it away into a cabinet. True, that none of us will probably convince another of our side, but through the argument it lets us explore what we truly think. What if people still said, "Let's not talk about this astronomy buiness--it doesn't matter whether the sun revolves around the Earth or vice versa"? I, personaly love to argue, and Doanie8, you did see all that stuff, just on the first few pages. No one is standing with a gun pointed to your head forcing you to read this--if you have some sort of morbid need to read things taht make you upset, that's your own problem to handle. And we by far are no where near flaming eachother (it's not like we've made any personal attacks here). Finally, your own post has proven it. If no one were to voice their opinion for the argument to end, then it would never have even been considered, thus the thought of WHY such talk should be encouraged may have never come to be. See? It's all about conflict--and we can still be friendly about it.


I'm SO gonna have to disagree with you. While there is a good risk (about 1 in 100 ir so) of a shuttle going down each mission, that is by no means sacrficing your life. These people didn't KNOW they were going to die, unlike your grenade parallel, where it is certain death to save the lives of others. They didn't take of knowing they were going to die as grenade man made the decision to make the dive knowing full well not only the chances of survival, but the certain outcome.
And hey, speaking of those PMs, the notification just hit my inbox. How bout that?

Yest, there is a difference. My friend here thought to the best of his logical abilities, and found no way to look at it another way than by the conclusions he reached. Relying on what's been ingrained on you through your life isn't enough for me--this whole "faith in the moral majority" thing makes me shake my head.
And, FAK, you're all alone on the attention thing, although I think you would agree.

Edit: Holy crap those are big PMs.

this discussion, while it may or may not be "letting us explore what we truely believe" as John B said, is getting far off track... this thread was started with the idea of a FIRST wide sticker or patch to show our respect for the DEAD astronauts... DEAD... do you go to a funeral and start arguing in public about whether or not the dead guy deserves respect? NO, you stay quite, and complain over a drink in a bar or at home... this is the same idea... i'm all for the arguement, people have to right to an opinion... but not here, please not here...

if you don't support the idea of the respect sticker, make a valid arguement, or :ahh: don't use it!?!?!?!?!

make your arguements about if the dead space men's sacrifice is equal to jumping on a grenade or dying trying to save someones life....
__________________________

now to completely contradict myself and respond -
their death is completely seperate from jumping on a bomb, what they did was die trying to enchance science, their experiments up there might have led to cured cancer, or inspired some child to do so, but had nothing to do with saving lives

who could they have saved? any major bombs go off, any missiles launched? what could they have stopped on earth?

you can't say they died saving lives, but you can't dismiss the fact that they died doing something that helped other people, not themselves (sure they got money, but was it worth the risk?)

We owe a lot of technology we take for granted from the space program and its associated research and developmental efforts BOTH on Earth and in orbit. They died for not only us, but for the human race in general. While not all of the world can share the fruits of the space program, but eventually everyone will in time. Remember what Dean said about the simple things involving potable water? Its the same with space, well not on the same magnitude, rather those who have it greatly outnumber those who don't.

You must understand: I wholeheartedly support the efforts of NASA and all the astronauts, including the crew of STS-107. I'm very grateful for the advances in nearly everything I enjoy that came as a result of space science. What I'm debating here is whether STS-107 should be considered different than the other NASA missions. Nearly everyone has agreed that these people took the same risks as the other shuttle crews. Does the fact that they god a bad destiny draw make them special?

If you answered yes, then that means that death makes more of a difference than intention. This mode of thinking would imply that manslaughter is the same as assassination. What makes you decide this way? I'm asking to get an understanding of your side, not to counter your stance or to be mean in any way.

As John Bono said, I am a creature of logic. I also (try to) take a holistic view whenever possible. I am not swayed by hordes of people saying something is the "right thing to do." However, I am capable of assimilating new data. If there is a reason why you feel/act a certain way, share it with me. At worst, it will be an interesting experience for all parties. At best, you might sway me to your side. In any case, say what you have to say wherever you deem it most appropriate, and don't expect less from me.

[edit]In the midst of writing this, John Bono apparently created a new thread for such things. From here on out, discussions on life and death will be taken there, and this thread will be reserved for NASA stuff. Thanks for my cooperation.[/edit]

Hey everyone,

I'm not up to date on this thread... So someone may have already found this....

TheSpaceStore.com has a "In Memory of STS-107" Patch... Might want to check it out...

http://www.thespacestore.com/stinmempat.html

Yeah, but you have money to buy them. Some are going to be copying the mission logo in powerpoint and printing one out.