Space Shuttle Tragedy--Team tribute (please read)
 

In wake of this terrible tragedy happening as we speak, I feel like there is somthing that we, as a large science community, should do. Last year, after 9/11, many teams showed their respect for our nation and those who died by putting images of flags on their robots and team uniforms.

How awesome would it be if we could get every team this year to incorporate some sort of NASA or space shuttle logo into their robot or team shirt? It would give us a way to remember what happened and to show respect.

Please think about this and feel free to put up other suggestions, i just think that we need to do somthing.

it would be cool if we made little ribbons that we could hand out at competitions to pin to your shirt. Then everyone could show their respects at the same time. It would be cool to get at least one team per regional to do this, then it would be a FISRT wide tribute.

Re: Space Shuttle Tragedy--Team tribute (please read)
 

I don't think it is appropriate to post NASA logos, for the simple reason of sponsorship.
However, it would be great if a graphics designer could come up with an image that said something like "RIP Columbia Crew", and everyone could print it out on sticky paper and affix it to their robot.

--Petey

space shuttle tragdey
 

I agree as FIRST Teams we should band together and do something. Although NASA doesn't specifially sponsor all teams they do sponsor and support FIRST in a tremendous way and I believe with that in mind, showing the NASA logo on our robots and or in our pits would be similar to displaying the FIRST logo.

Team 316, LuNaTeCs will do whatever is decided upon to do at both the Chesapeake and Philly Regionals.

Hmm...we're in the midst of t-shirt design right now...How bout we put the sts-107 mission patch on the arm?...juss a thought..

I think that's a great idea.

Here's the image, if you need it:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/...-107-patch.jpg

Can somebody with graphics talent make this into some sort of logo that can be distributed to all the teams to place on their robot? Some little thing like "always in our hearts" or something? Not anything too sappy happy, but just something nice.

--Petey

team 967
 

As a part of Team 967 I am going to push to place the shuttle mission patch on the robot or even our shirts. It's a awsome tribute to the crew of the shuttle and would really be awsome if every team could do something similer.

Every body think of the families and friends of the Columbia

help
 

if anyone needs any help passing something out team 93 would be happy to do so. the tragedy has touched all our hearts.

ive been doin graphics for my team and if anyone has any ideas post them or email me at Johnnyscans@hotmail.com and ill c what i can come up with.

here's somthing i just sketched up. If anyone wants to, feel free to elaborate or i can make a clean and digital copy of this. columbia logo (its a rather big picture, its thumbnailed inthe misc gallery as well)

Here is a quick graphic I made up for my web page. Nothing fancy:

Just a note, it was an International flight, so the American flag is not quite right... I suppose you would need both the American and Israeli flag to be completly accurate.

-Andy A.

This is creepy our team was ready to put the American flag up on our robot. We agreed upon it yesterday. Now we need a Isralei flag and a space shuttle logo on it also.

About all the American Flags.... keep in mind there WAS an Israeli astronaut up there with our boys.

The future of space exploration is going to be an international effort. Although this was an American tragedy, I think the impacts will be felt by all nations working together on space exploration (a la International Space Station). So I guess my point is (although put rather bluntly) this: less post-9-11 bandwagon patriotism, and more thinking of this as an international tragedy.

[Edit] Seems two people said what I was going to say before I finished typing it...[/Edit]

810 will post the STS-107 Mission Patch proudly on our robot, beside the NASA logo.

While I don't believe, at this time, that we will post anything beyond the actual Mission Patch, might I suggest that you strongly consider your use of the American flag in memorial designs?

While the Space Shuttle is American, this morning's loss wasn't localized to America. Beyond there being an international contingency of astronauts on board, representing many nationalities, today we experienced a loss to humanity and to science and progress.

America wasn't hurt this morning. Humanity was.

I think and I bet rest of Team 930 will agree we should all post some patch on each and every robot that goes to competiton. NASA was one of FIRST biggest sponsors and we should reconize this.

This tragedy has effected Team 930. Laurel Clark when to Racine High School which is in Wisconsin. That is about 45 min drive from us.

We recived word of the tragedy about time we were all going to walk into the shop and get working. We were all shocked. (you should have seen our reactions) We got the TV on instently and never turned it off until we were walking out the doors.

I'd like to express the deepest condolences from myself and Team 930 to the friends and familys of NASA and the crew members.

I couldn't get access to the NASA page where the patch was...here's another link: http://216.234.185.240/iota/images/KSC/sts-107/

Everyone here on team 84 expresses their sincere condolences to all friends and family of those brave souls.

May whatever high power that is out there be with the 7 brave souls that were lost in the Columbia disaster today, their family and friends, NASA, and the rest of the country!

what is the significance of the Script "MG" on the logo?

I agree, the patch on every bot!

Due to today's tragic loss of the Space Shuttle Orbiter Columbia on her 28th mission in service of her country, I have proposed in honor of her 7 astronaut crew members that we place the mission patch of Space Transportation System Flight 107 on our T-Shirts. With Warren Boudreaux's suggestion (he is also our team leader), I plan on placing two patches on on this year's robot at both the port and starboard shoulder joints. It has been a sad day for all of us who's dreams take us beyond the stars and I must say in their honor and memory we continue our quest of achieving our dreams and goals.

With My Deepest Sympathy to the families and friends of All 7 Astronauts,

Michael R. Lee
Palm City, Florida
International Baccalaureate Senior
South Fork High School
U.S. F.I.R.S.T. Robotics Competition Team 180, S.P.A.M.;
International Summit of Young Technology Leaders 2002 (YTL Summit) Network Delegate

Don't go all september 11th fake patriotism on us, that's true.
However, if you look at the logo, the Israeli name has an Israeli flag next to him.
And the rest of the astronauts were American.
I do like the big flag background one.

--Petey

Wasn't Chawla Indian? Thats what I thought they said on T.V. I think having some sort of remembrance on bot/shirt is a great idea. I will definitely share this with the rest of my team.

Cory

she was born in India, but is now an American citizen

Micro gravity. They were performing micro-gravity expirements on board during the duration of the flight.

It's supposed stand for Micro Gravity...

I found this earlier today... http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/...107-s-001.html
It tells what the insigina means...

-SPK

Just to reemphasize, there is an israeli flag in my graphic next to the name. I am the last person to get all 911 sentimental, and complained openly about the proliferation of tattered american flags on everyone's cars. I just thought that the flag was a more majestic backdrop than just blue sky.

As to the logo, I think it is actually µg (mu g), as µ is a standard abbreviation for micro. I always use µwave as shorthand for microwave.

All the Astronauts...
 

We shouldn't go with 9-11 anything, this has nothing to do with 9-11. We SHOULD all put a NASA logo or STS-107 Mission patch on our robots. We are all scientists and engineers and their is not one of us who would not have been willing to take that flight, even if we knew we wouldn't come back, just to go into space once. But then when I think About it I wonder if we should put the names of all of the astronauts who have been lost in their quests of exploration into space. The Astronauts of the Apollo Fire, the Soyuz Tragedy, Challenger Disaster, and now, the Columbia Tragedy.

i used illustrator to modify the mission patch and i think that it would look good on all the robots. if some1 could post telling me how to post pictures it would be great. thanxs.

john scans

save it into a zip file then use the "Attach File" option between where you type your post and "Submit Reply"

The NASA insignia design for Shuttle flights is reserved for use by the astronauts and for other official use as the NASA Administrator may authorize. Public availability has been approved only in the form of illustrations by the various news media. When and if there is any change in this policy, which is not anticipated, it will be publicly announced.


This is from the link that described the symbolism of the patch design. Can one of the NASA teams perhaps look into this? I hope that they will agree to our proposed tribute.

Check this out

Im on a NASA team and I'll look into it, but what specifically do you want to be looked into.?

> America wasn't hurt this morning. Humanity was.

While Brazil does not (yet) had an astronaut aboard the ISS, a Shuttle or a Soyuz vehicle, Brazilian C&T resources to the space program have been ever-growing. We have micro-gravity labs in the university, and we all find being part ( albeit a small one ) in the ISS program a great thing.

It is definetively a mankind thing - aboard an american vehicle. We deeply mourn the loss of the Columbia crew as it affects space exploration as a whole.

( And EIRobotics86, your tribute image above reads "Chalenger" instead of Columbia - now that was some 17 years ago... )

That's nice...but it was the crew of the Columbia, not the "Chalenger" (sic)

--Petey

oops

Hows This

Ummm... I think we should be a bit more careful and respectful with the STS-107 mission patch. I think it would be awesome to have that patch on all FIRST robots this year, with NASA's permission. I don't think we should be too hasty in contacting NASA about this so early in this difficult time for them, but in a few weeks, I'll also help look into it.

I do not think it will be a problem putting the logo on the robot.

I would reword it from "Rest in Peace" to "In remembrance of..." it sounds more appropriate.

I agree that "In remebrance of..." looks better, but I think the font in the first one was better, as the intricate one looks like something that would be used in a cheesy horror movie. If you want any more advice from someone who doesn"t have enough initiative to go edit the image themselves, I would suggest changing the font colot to something darker. Red contrasts nicely for most of it, but a darker color that still contrasted (like navy blue would be good) and having the mission logo less faded would be cool too.

My team is NASA sponsored team and we would like to contribute to the remberance of Columbia. We would love to be able to put the STS-107 mission patch on our shirts and robot. We do however need NASA's permission. How do we go about doing this? I would be willing to call NASA or email them to see if they can give us approval. If anyone has any way of doing this please state it in this thread and I'll be happy to do it. God bless the crew of Columbia.

A Proposal
 

IN the wake of the international tragedy that was the explosion of Space Shuttle Columbia, I and Team 1135 propose that we further commemorate the brave astronauts who died upon the shuttle, by letting there be a competition in the Spirit of FIRST, of excellence, for a written tribute to be read at each competiton, regional and national, so that their deaths may not have been in vain, but would inspire greater excellence in the world. Perhaps poetry or an inspirational speech...i've enclosed a copy of poem I wrote in rememberance of this....


Hope in a Shattered World

Dedicated to the family, friends, and crew of those who died on the Space Shuttle Columbia....

A ruined town, a shattered nation,
the death of seven, a blow to all.
Walking in rubble of demolished dreams,
I gaze at the weeping, struck by the fall

Burning wings of fiery light,
On which a corpse is a dreadful sight,
Life once so vibrant, gone in a flash,
Only ashes remain from tragedy's blast.

Disordered destruction and fire within,
In a vessel of night, of yang and of yin.
Massive eruptions at shattered flesh burn,
So that one crosses over, not to return.

Shards of debris are all that remain,
But let no one say that they challenged in vain,
Though burned to a remnant of shattered, singed bone,
Their souls are foredoomed to be never alone

Proud and defiant, we will always stand tall,
And to the troops of despair shall we never fall,
And hoping 'gainst hope, against evils that be,
We challenge the earth, the sky, and the sea.

Matthew David Lee:] :]

I will place it, the mission patch, on the robot in their honor. If we all do it, what are they going to do, jail/fine all of us. Besides someone approach them. S.P.A.M. isn't sponsored by them this year (last year) so I really cannot go up through the channels. Also whoever contacts NASA tell them we're trying to make this FIRST wide so therefore maybe they'll supply us with a good image to print in a decal, sticker, or whatever you plan on usig for a mount. Its such a sad thing to happen and yet we have all this red tape to cut through. But the patches are for official use only.

I will try to get my team to put the logo on our t-shirts and/or the robot.

It's not an issue of red tape or "what are they gonna do about it" it is a matter of asking because it is the right thing to do.

Like stepping aboard a boat or entering someone's home or taking a complete stranger's picture if travelling in a foreign land . . asking permission is the right thing to do

Come to think of it, you might even call it
"Gracious Professionalism"

The red tape I was reffering to was the legalities of whether we can use the patches or not. Yes we can just print them off the Internet but it would be better if we had NASA's permission to use it as they hold the rights to it. And I was hinting at our Code of Ethics, "Gracious Professionalism", because that is what it is.

Peace

(I figured that was what you meant)

I was thinking maybe someone can contact FIRST and then FIRST might be able to contact NASA and ask them if we could put the mission patch, or the NASA logo on our bot/ uniforms. Team 1077 is a NASA sponsored team and I know we are going to be buying our NASA patches off of NASA to put on our uniforms. They sell all there patch's and everything on their web site, maybe we could buy the STS 107 mission patch from there and place it on the robot/uniforms. Just a thought

I don't know about your team but we are $15,000 short. Buying the patches will be expensive for everbody. Yeah its a good idea to go through FIRST maybe cut a deal. But if I have to I'll get a patch, paste it into powerpoint and make a sticker/decal out of it. We have to do that for some of our sponsors as what they have provided or haven't is inadequate.

Jim- Sorry, I musta misunderstood what you meant.

I agree with you 100%, getting the patches will cost a lot of money...its a good 3-5 bucks a patch. The powerpoint idea you had and making them into stickers is actually really good!

put this together quickly.

here's one i found.

They could've found a picture of Columbia, at least. That's Endeavour.

But, meh. We're sticking with the Mission Patch alone. The rest is just too much.

before we do anything i think we should get someone to go to NASA and ask for permission/ideas... they might have some better way for FIRST teams to remember...

i'd like to keep religion and patriotism out of this because some people might get offended by it (no god references unless you name all gods kinda thing), not because i'm all anti-religion (which i actually am, but thats just me) but because when you bring religion into it, you walk a fine line between respect and insult towards other religions

just my three cents

For anyone who is interested you can get the NASA patches or the STS 107 mission patch here... (the STS 107 patches are out of stock, they will be getting more shortly)

http://store.yahoo.com/spacestore/index.html

I think posting the mission patch on the robots is a great idea! It would be a great show of support if all of the teams did it! We should come up with a final image that every team gets made up for their robot.

Tragedy indeed
 

Nasa is one of our sponsers, so we have to wear the logo anyways.. The space shuttle blowing up was a terrible tragedy, but I am never hit or struck with patriotism when terrible things happen to this great nation of "freedom.."

As to that.. I agree 100%.. I don't do any god bashing, but I certainly do not like to hear it brought up.. besides religion is such a controversial thing.. why start a whole debate about whether god should be brought up or not.. just thought what he said was insightful..

:D

It's a shame that tragedy occured. I guess all of us have to be more careful if we grow up as engineers not to let mistakes like that cost human lives.

Not to hi-jack the thread, but if you see an engineer with a small pinky ring - that engineer is probably Canadian and . . . . well, ask them what it means. I am neither a "real" engineer, nore canadian, but I think that the symbolism of the ring is very cool.

The responsibilities of engineering are great - shoddy workmanship/design on a robot is diappointing, shoddy workmanship/design on something like a bridge is devastating.

oo early to point fingers in this shuttle tragedy, but that time will probably come. I would get more upset at the media's attempts to find answers (aka jump to conclusions) so quickly; however most of the engineers they have been interviewing have held fast; "it is too early to tell/speculate)

Yeah, we've had to do that with some sponsors because they gave us logos too big (scanner) or none at all.

Media always gets things wrong...they confuse things and sometimes its just to try to sell papers, get viewers, etc... and they demolish the truth. Fortunately the investigators aren't jumping to conclusions.

I will wear the patch on my shirt, but it is up to everyone else if they want to post it on their shirts or robot.

space shuttle tragedy
 

Wasn't one of the astronauts of Indian desent?

You people need to remember that not all of them were americans so we need to incorporate the other astronauts country/flag whatever with it......just the patch on its own is fine. but no american flag.....we need to show sympathy and tears for all not just the americans

I personally don't see any reason to complain about placing the American flag on any memorial images. It was an American shuttle, with American support, from an American agency. Just because an Israeli happened to be on it doesn't make it an Israeli mission.

Secondly, I must say I don't see how this was a highly significant event. Is a car accident significant? As far as I can tell, the only difference between the Columbia's explosion and some minivan totalling on the freeway barrier is the cost, and the fact that the participants were certainly aware of the risks. Statistically speaking, almost nobody watched the launch of STS-107. For the vast majority of the nation (and the world, with the possible exception of Israel) it was not significant until something went wrong. The crew of STS-107 did nothing of more importance than any other science crew in the Shuttle program, except for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Personally, if I were to post a memorial to a shuttle flight, it would be the one that repaired the Hubble. They at least accomplished a significant and noticeable goal. It was also much more of a technical challenge than any non-construction mission.

I agree with you 100%. Although I think that the Half and Half image looks cool.

First of all, it's not a memorial to the technical things that they did or did not accomplish. It's a memorial to the people who died Saturday. Show a little respect.

Secondly, you're looking at the whole American flag thing backwards. Just because it was an American shuttle with American support launched by an American agency doesn't mean that there wasn't an Israeli on board. Everything isn't dollars and cents. But that's beside the point. NASA was created for, is paid for by, and is largely composed of Americans, but what we do is meant to help the whole world.

LAK, that was a little bit unsensitive ( don't know if spell right ) from your part, but I totally RESPECT not support but RESPECT your opinion.... I think the patch / or sticke idea is great, but it shouldn't b a must... G-FoRcE

PS: I'll do a hott simple image with some images i gathered up, so far I haven't seen one that i like in here so it will b up to me :D ... I got 4 years of graphics experience already ( not to brag ) so i think it will come out hott.... i'll post it in a while.....

This is directed to everyone who is argueing over whether or not to include the american flag, the nasa logo, etc etc. IMHO, it is not what we use in the image on our robots that is important, but the fact that we have somthing that commemorates the lives of the astronauts. If your team feels it is important to show the american flag in the background, do it. Similarly, if you think that the best way to show respect is just to post the mission patch, do that. I guess all that im trying to say is that everyone's energy in this thread should be headed in a more positive direction.

Best Tribute
 

This is the best tribute picture i've seen so far.



It's rather large (1280 x 2100), but well worth it.

If you dont want to let it load here, go
here

Thank you ofr posting it. It's wonderful.

Thanks for the nice image posted. I'll get my graphics teacher to print it out on some nice poster board and put it up in our robotics lab if I can.

And to whoever posted that...piece of...yeah...taht post about the difference between this and a minivan crash. These were 7 people willing to give their lives for the betterment of mankind. They worked for 16 days, 24 hours a day in shifts, to complete physical experiments. They worked and gave the ultimate sacrifice. Why? So you can live a longer, healthier, safer life. They studied the effects of space on a person. So when you, a person of earth, pollute it to the point of inhabitation, we'll know the effects of space on a person when we have to move there. This was not just the loss of 7 great people either. It was a blow to the entire scientific community.

I'm going to stop myself there before I get a messege asking to stop flaming the other users on delphi...

More or less, I liked somebody else's post...Even if you actually believe this was as significant as a minivan crash, at least show some respect.

You could not have said that any better!

I know I seem (and probably am) fairly insensitive, I have a point to make. Can someone please explain Why a death is more important than a life? A failed mission more than a success?


Why do we mourn a tragedy more than we celebrate a job well done?

There has been more to NASA than just spectacular failure. Should we not celebrate the crews of spectacular successes just as much as the people who ended up on the wrong side of probability?

I'm not saying the people weren't brave, or that their deaths weren't a shame. However, every other astronaut has been just as willing to accept the same, sometimes greater, risks for the same goals. Remember, their mission work was already done.

The rather morbid side of human nature should not prevent anyone from respecting and honoring the people who died.
While you may beleive that you are just stating your views, by refusing to recognize those people, you are disrespecting them, their families, and everyone who has done anything to support their mission, including everyone at NASA and everyone who pays taxes to support them.
Those people gave the ultimate sacrifice for the improvement of everyone. If you have negative thoughts, keep them to yourself.

The people who have died on the Columbia were not mere victims of probability, they were people who gave their lives for the eventual embetterment of the human race. The truth is, though we often triumph, we seldom know defeat, and it is this tragedy, this loss that we mourn because it falls out of the reach of our sense of reality.

FAKrogoth, are you condemning all those who mourn their loved ones? Are you condemning the mounrning of death, and loss? Are you such a cold, insensitive human being that you will show such utter disrespect to those who gave the ultimate sacrafice? The world isn't entirely about efficency and the ends justify the means, otherwise, Machiavellian thought would reign supreme and organizations such as first would not exist. The only reason that you are able to be part of an organization like this, that you are able to post your views here at all is because people believe in making a diffrence, that not everything is about success, but in the attempt, and in the spirit of honor.

I'll stop myself before I go completely out of control, but my point is that the deaths of these astronauts meant something, and were not only a blow to the families and friends of those who died on the Columbia, but to the entire scientific community, and the world. If you have negative thoughts, please, refrain from disrespecting those who have died by saying that this tragedy was the equivalent of a minivan crash. If you had lost someone, or believed in the great human dream of space, you would understand. You obviously don't. As for your thoughts, keep them to yourself

Ok, I have something that is kind of strange. The shuttle dissintigrated above central Texas and some of the debris landed in a town named Palestine. Is this an omen of some sort? Just a thought...

ok, think about this..... the shuttle came from space, amaizing height!, and when the shuttle is comming down to earth, it goes to a speed of 26 times the speed of sound, think about that for a sec......


PS: the image i did is done but i need something to upload it with.... what server can I use to upload images?

ChiefDelphi.com

Either use the "attach file" below where you type posts or more preferably use the "Gallery" (link located top right of every page) to upload pictures. Put it into 2003 -> Misc.

Will someone please just answer one question: why are people who die more important than those who don't?

Re: Space Shuttle Tragedy--Team tribute (please read)
 

Turns out one of the astronauts was a at a FIRST competition

Picture 1

Picture 2

The point is not that they are more important. The point is that it is tragic when people die. When they die doing something that is important, like space flight, or altruistic, like missionary work, or for the greater good in any way, we celebrate their life and their sacrifice. We don't point out ways that their mission was less sucessful or important than others, and we show them and their families due respect.

here is an idea
 

I think that this is a wonderful way to show that are hearts are with the families and the NASA community[IMG]sts-107-patchribbonfin[/IMG]

Well FAKrogoth does make a point. I mean space flights have not nearly or practically, have become routine. The American people have forgotten how great and special a thing space flight is. And we are placing more media coverage because such an event greatly disrupt the status quo more than a successful landing.
We should definitely do something to show support, I expect it. For one thing, this is the most science involved club I've ever been involved with. Plus everyone should show support for the friends and family of the crew. And NASA is one of our sponsors (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

They used to be....like before I joined the club three years ago...but alas they are no longer
(Our only main sponsers are JEA and Vistakon)

Re: Re: Space Shuttle Tragedy--Team tribute (please read)
 

Yeah, Dave Brown. I met the man at KSC while me and Bill COx were representing S.P.A.M. waiting to be interview by NASA. Nice guy...the thing is we're talking with a few guys from 179 and I think 343 and 312 who happened to be passing through -the RR are in that building- about the space shuttle at the moment (and what would happen if all computers failed upon landing....like right before touchdown...well maybe at 25,000 feet)...he walks into the building hearing our conversation and is like you should be able to and it but I wouldn't want to find out.

To Specialagentjim: Do you realize that the people on the Columbia were not rushing to finish the experiments before they died, they were following the mission criteria. Whether or not the Shuttle was damaged, they would have performed the same. STS-107, except for the last few minutes, was a routine science mission. If you want to celebrate NASA's achievements, pick a mission with some distinction other than morbidity.

To various people: *THEY DIDN'T "BRAVELY SACRIFICE" THEIR LIVES!!!* The crew took the same risks as every other shuttle crew. There was no such tragedy where they were destined to die, and they worked to their last breaths trying to fulfill as much of the experiments as possible. I don't mean to say the deaths weren't "sad" or "tragic," but sh*t happens. Lament, don't mourn.

To those few who were outraged by my "minivan" correlation: How are these two events not similar? A minivan could have seven people in it. The shuttle had seven people in it. One uses the 'van to get home from work. The Columbia was used to get back from orbit to Earth. People generally aren't doing anything important on the freeway. STS-107 had already completed all the objectives. However, the Space Shuttle does cost $140 million. It was also chauffered by an inanimate object, and was flying "in the name of Science" which does not necessarily have anything to do with space flight. The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that money, and a misguided view of science as a whole, makes a death significant. If you don't believe me, think back to Princess Di.

To everyone: How is this a "blow to the entire scientific community?" Apparently, I was not aware that probability does not exist when humans are involved. Believe me, science as a whole will not curl up and die, just because seven people lost their lives. (There are a LOT more scientists out there) Did anyone think about how this might spur the development of other, cheaper, more reliable lifting devices? SSTO, baby!

To everyone (again): What is this "Due respect?" How do I get it? It seems to me like martyrdom is the easiest way.
. . .
Particularly when it's expensive.

And finally, to all people who can't think about tragedy without using their heart, which ironically is not the center of emotion, nor does it have anything to do with hormone production,, and thus won't say anything "thoughtful": :p

OK people...this is getting way way out of hand!! Some of you sound like 2 year olds fighting back and forth! If you want to go at each other PM one another or something, but leave it of the bored...Everyone has their own opinions and they should be respected. This thread is about a "team tribute: to the crew of STS 107. Can we try not fighting about who
a: thinks they are heroes,
b: are nothing diff from anyone that has died with AIDS
c: Was just like any other normal NASA mission,
d: was doing every day normal science experiments. ect!!!!

Its just ridiculous to see the way some things can be taken out of proportion!

Dood, how about you think before you open your mouth in the future.

First and foremost, especially on a FIRST messageboard, disrespectful is a mild word for what you're doing right now.

The space shuttle is one of the pinnacles of human achievement at this age. We've been all over the world (except possibly the depths of the oceans). The one place where we as a race have not been is Space. The Universe is so large is defies comprehension. For every star that is visible (even on a clear night in the middle of the countryside), there are thousands, if not millions, of stars which are hidden. We are just taking baby steps into that world.

The Colombia tragedy isn't only about the lives lost. The space shuttle program represents the culmination of the most advanced space travel technology in existence today (even the Russian Soyuz crafts are nowhere as reusable as the space shuttle). It also represents the culmination of countless manhours and cooperation between humans - it's just a taste of what can happen if we try. The tragedy comes from the fact that all of these achievements have been just shown to be imperfect.

The Colombia disaster isn't only about the human deaths. It's about the psychological impacts. With your AIDs argument - yeah, people die of AIDs every day, but how many of those people represent the future of humanity, the future of exploration, the culmination of some of the most advanced technology available, and an example of what the human race is capable of if we just work together. How many people who die die representing those virtues?

---

However, if you don't care about the human race and just want a specific example of how this is a "blow to the entire scientific community," look no further than the IIS.

Currently, there are only two crafts capable of transporting humans to the International Space Station: the Russian Soyuz crafts (which aren't too reusable), and the American Space Shuttles. The Russians are in financial trouble and have implied they would be forced to withdraw from the IIS program if they can't secure funds to continue the production of their Soyez vehicles. That has put a lot of the responsibility of continuing the IIS program in American hands. When the Challenger blew up, the entire Space Shuttle fleet was grounded for over two years until the cause was determined and upgrades were made. If the Space Shuttle fleet becomes grounded now, what happens to the IIS?

You mentioned the SSTO and implicitly hinted to the Lockheed Martin X-10 (exact letters?). Honestly - how long does it take to fully design and construct a completely new, working spacecraft. You're not going to see a mission-ready model for at least five, six years - it'll probably be close to a decade. What happens to the IIS in that timeframe?

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FAKrogoth, if you want to continue this, pm me or AIM me (PhyrosFire) - I'd be glad to debate this further - but please, just keep your opinions out of the wrong threads before you make them locked. Sometimes people need to express their sadness. You must respect that if you want people to treat you with respect.

Alrighty, then. I see that my friend here needs a little backup as he is the only sane thinker here besides the people who choose to abstain from the argument.
Lists always seem to be the best for these types of scenerios.
1) The man was obviously thinking before he typed for his argument was well articulated, which is mroe than what I can say for you.
2) Claiming someone to be disrespectful without a sound basis for this accusation is quite a hefty piece of circular logic you use. Not praising the dead people doesn't mean disrespect--nor does putting thier death in proper proportion on the grans scheme of things. They're dead. We understand already. No reason to go running around saying that they were the best people to walk the Earth, and that we should SO remember thier tragic end.
3) You're next coherent paragraph has no useful information. Stop wasting our time.
4) I would certainly hope that today's pinnacle of human technology is still where it was when the last episodes of the original Star Trek was made. There are far more advanced space craft out there, that can lauch a sattilite for a much cheaper cost--but, as yo said they aren't so reusable. Many other spacecraft are on there way to fruition are leagues past those flying fossils that we still use. And I'm sorrry your idealistic view of the universe was shattered when 7 was added to the countless nomber of people dead and 1 was added to the other countless numer of accidents in human history. Trust me, in twenty years, you'll have a hard time remembering the name of the second space shuttle to go boom.
5) The last week of a person's life is rarely encompassing of thier life as a whole. Trying to say that these people are more important than a third of the continent of Africa is ludicrous. I'm sure our economy and fat wallets have benefited much more from the good people at Nike Corporation. And I'm sure we can find many of those people that dies hoding their people's mora majority ideals.
6) Okay, you got a good point in the second paragraph on the second seciton there, but that first paragraph: WHY SHOULD WE COMMEMORATE THE SETBACK OF OUR SPACE PROGRAM? As FAK said--lament, don't mourn.
7) For the record, it's ISS, not IIS. ANd yes, it'll probably take another two years to finish now. :(

And I highly disagree with the whole--lest's not argue on the main board. It's called a forum for a reason. If more than two people want to debate the issue, it's a hell of a lot more efficient than starting a PM circular. It's not like you don't have free time to debate this issue if you have enough time to try to brag about your team's memorial service.
Finally, I will make the same staement I've been saying for years (although, this being my first post here, none of you have heard it in the same words). Imagine the world as a pond. As a drop of water hits the pond, it's reprecussions are less and less important the farther you get outside of its impact. Although, for this visual to work, you have to represent the surface of the water for your connections with other people, socially, economically, or geographically. Making a big deal out of something that doesn't affect you makes no sense, nor does misproprtioning how big a deal you make of someting compared to how it affects you.

Thank you, [SuperDanman]. You are the first person who has taken more than a gut reaction to what I've said. You do make some good points, and I disagree with a couple, but that's natural.

I admit that the tragedy will definitely serve as a learning experience, and I lament the fact that it cost lives. However, it does not set the course of science back. Can you name one intelligent person who honestly did not see the dangers/imperfections of the Space Shuttle before the Colombia was lost? I can assure you that everyone at NASA knew the risks. To paraphrase your own words, "The tragedy comes from the fact that [the obvious fact of our imperfection has been shown]."

Could it have been prevented? Most likely.
Was it a bad thing? Definitely.
Was it earth-shattering? No.
Does it endanger the lives of the crew of the ISS? Only if nobody manages to scrape up a supply mission before August, and the Soyuz re-entry capsule ("lifeboat") fails. Barring emergencies, they're good through July. I admit that the investigations may take longer than that, but, if so, the Russians will probably find a little help getting supply craft together. If that falls through, the Soyuz are approximately as safe as the Shuttle. I think they'll manage.

As for the whole Shuttle, SSTO, reusable comments, there is plenty of talk of other things in the works. I'm not saying that they'll replace the Shuttle this year. Everyone knows that it will take significantly longer just to design, test, and build full-scale a new reusable craft. However, the Space Shuttle is actually significantly more expensive per flight (I'm not sure about per kg) than the disposable options employed today. This is not quite what we want, and there will be more interest in other methods. There is no reason not to continue using the Shuttles (pending investigation results) until they can be replaced. The system may just move a little faster now.

Finally, about my rashness of reply, you're absolutely right. If I'd been thinking clearly, I would have written "probability does not exist when [human lives] are involved." Thank you for calling it to my attention.

If you've read The Great Gatsby, there's a line in it where Meyer Wolfsheim says "Let us learn to show our friendship for a man when he is alive and not after he is dead."

Oh, it's on.
 

Likewise.

You and your friend have moved on. Congratulations. Don't dare presume you're important enough, intelligent enough, or logical enough to tell people when, how, and for how long they should mourn. That, above all else, is the most disrespectful thing you can ever do to a person.

If you think the deaths of these astronauts is no more or less important than anything else that's going on in your lives, that is your prerogative. However, it is disrespectful, cold, and inconsiderate of you to make any attempt, whatsoever, at invalidating the grieving of another individual.

Likewise.

Again, while you may have better things to worry about, there are some people in this world who are genuinely touched by human drama. We're human, after all, and with that comes a number of interesting caveats. We're not perfect. We don't mourn everything, or everyone. We can't. We mourn things that affect us.

If you're not affected by the accomplishments of these astronauts, nor their counterparts, that's fine for you. You're in no place, however, to tell me how I should appreciate, awe, or admonish their work.

In twenty years, I will remember.

Nobody is saying that. At all. If that's what you want to see, that's what you'll see, as it's the only valid basis you could possibly have for drawing these comparisons out.

No individual is any more than important than another. No group is better than another. No race, color, religion, sex, gender, or baseball team has any advantage over any other.

Sadly, I haven't found the opportunity to glimpse into the lives of so many other people on this planet. I am not saying that, for example, one third of Africa's population has accomplished nothing, is worth nothing, and should die without care nor cause. Instead, I'm arguing that, as a single individual, I'm doing the best I can to touch as many lives as possible and to be touched by even more. I want to know every individual that walks on this planet. I want to hear their stories and see their facial expressions and experience their passion.

Because of this unfortunate accident, I am now familiar with seven more people than I was early Saturday morning, February 1, 2003. I mourn, not only for their passing, but because I won't be given another chance to experience them - as people. Nor will anyone else. Similarly, I am touched by and often feel quite the same way about people from all walks of life.

I am a human, and sometimes, I need to make psychological associations with things before I am affected. Emotion, often, does not withstand the rigorous analysis of logic.

Introduce me to the people of Africa, dying of AIDS; or young, queer youth, dying at the hands of their peers; or firefighters facing uncertain danger for the benefit of people that haven't even met yet. Allow me to spend time amongst writers, and artists, and musicians. Give me those opportunities and I'll mourn each of their deaths with the same intensity and passion that I do these seven astronauts. Give me those opportunities and I'll celebrate their lives and achievements just as I do these seven astronauts.

Don't dare tell me, however, that my mourning and sorrow is misplaced, nor that my celebration and amazement is without merit. These were amazing people, as all of us can be. These people may have been doing routine work on a routine shuttle mission, as it has become routine. But, though it hadn't captured our imagination with the same level of excitement that it did at the beginning of the space program, I doubt their work was any less influential, any less rewarding, and any less dangerous. The risks didn't decrease, but they changed.

Mourn their death, celebrate their life, and follow in their footsteps. Do something that makes life better. It doesn't need to be a science experiment on a spacecraft, really. Make someone smile once a day. That'll make a world of difference on its own.

By giving the deaths of thousands less publicity than the deaths of seven astronauts, or by mourning the deaths of seven astronauts openly, we do not seek to invalidate the experience and contribution of anyone else. Instead, we seek to bring awareness and hope to those who have none. We hope that their loss wasn't in vain and that their spirit is awakened inside all of us.

I'm always up for debate. It's healthy and stimulating so long as people can concisely elucidate their position.

Our team's memorial service consists of honoring these astronauts' commitment to expanding the horizons of the human race. We shall display their Mission Patch proudly, not because they accomplished any amazing feat for humanity by their own accord or because they were family or friends, but because they carried with them the spirit of exploration and education and interrogation that drives our efforts forward. For that, we thank them.

Thank you, NASA. Thank you, Columbia. Not only do we remember your seven souls, but we remember our own. We remember your past so that we may move bravely forward into our future.

They did. Is it the same thing as jumping on top of a grenade to save comrades in battle? No. Is it equally noble? Yes. These men and women, along with all astronauts, know acutely the risks associated with their job, but feel that the job to be done is worth the risk. At the time of the launch. about one in 100 space shuttle flights had ended tragically. The astronauts on board the shuttle knew this. They knew that, even with the best efforts of everyone involved, there was a chance they could die on this mission. But they went anyway. They bravely sacrificed their lives.

Do you think that the people in the minivan believe that their destination is worth a one in 100 chance of dying on the trip?

You get respect, first of all, by giving respect when it is due. Try it, you'll be surprised how well it works. And martyrdom isn't the easiest way, it's the hardest.

There's a difference between being "thoughtful" and just being an $@#$@#$@#. And, finally, if you think that human beings are nothing more than a collection of hormones, chemical processes, and electrical systems, then there can be no convincing you that the deaths of these people was tragic and worth your attention.

I came to this thread expecting to read about the tragedy of the Space Shuttle and instead I see a lot of childish bantering. PLEASE STOP

Somehow, people have managed to basically take any newstory in this forum and turn it into a self-righteous, close-minded, tear ever sentence apart, argument that is definately not in the spirit of first or even basic common courtesy. I think that if you really have a problem with someone's statements, talk to them personally so all this bickering and side-taking can come to an end.

Its unfortunate that many people are not recognized until they die tragically but let that underscore the pain that many feel. One of the bittersweet things we can learn from sad events is how fortunate we are....we have far strayed from the original message and its time to go back. Thank you

Its sad enoguh to lose people you know....its even sadder to lose them when they're still alive.

clcik here

First about the IIS thing - it was late and I was in the middle of coding some php and setting up my server, which runs on IIS (Internet Information Services - Microsoft's basic webserver). IIS. ISS. You're right - I did a few Freudian slips.

I responded with such hostility because of the environment you decided to share your opinions in. FIRST is a buncha people really excited about technology - the space shuttle program is what we all looked up to (yeah, it's old, but since there STILL aren't any reusable crafts capable of transporting humans into and out of space, I'd say it is still pretty advanced). I saw what you basically did here comparable to telling a mother who's only son was just killed in a car accident that her son was a jerk - it's far from what she wants to hear at the moment.

For that reason, I stand by what I said about stopping this discussion right now. This thread shouldn't go the way of the locked. Check your PMs - I will not continue this in public.

I agree with everything you just said except for the last paragraph, Super Damman, and before I get to verdyw's post, I'll explain why.
Nothing ever EVER gets resolved by quietly shuffling it away into a cabinet. True, that none of us will probably convince another of our side, but through the argument it lets us explore what we truly think. What if people still said, "Let's not talk about this astronomy buiness--it doesn't matter whether the sun revolves around the Earth or vice versa"? I, personaly love to argue, and Doanie8, you did see all that stuff, just on the first few pages. No one is standing with a gun pointed to your head forcing you to read this--if you have some sort of morbid need to read things taht make you upset, that's your own problem to handle. And we by far are no where near flaming eachother (it's not like we've made any personal attacks here). Finally, your own post has proven it. If no one were to voice their opinion for the argument to end, then it would never have even been considered, thus the thought of WHY such talk should be encouraged may have never come to be. See? It's all about conflict--and we can still be friendly about it.


I'm SO gonna have to disagree with you. While there is a good risk (about 1 in 100 ir so) of a shuttle going down each mission, that is by no means sacrficing your life. These people didn't KNOW they were going to die, unlike your grenade parallel, where it is certain death to save the lives of others. They didn't take of knowing they were going to die as grenade man made the decision to make the dive knowing full well not only the chances of survival, but the certain outcome.
And hey, speaking of those PMs, the notification just hit my inbox. How bout that?

Yest, there is a difference. My friend here thought to the best of his logical abilities, and found no way to look at it another way than by the conclusions he reached. Relying on what's been ingrained on you through your life isn't enough for me--this whole "faith in the moral majority" thing makes me shake my head.
And, FAK, you're all alone on the attention thing, although I think you would agree.

Edit: Holy crap those are big PMs.

this discussion, while it may or may not be "letting us explore what we truely believe" as John B said, is getting far off track... this thread was started with the idea of a FIRST wide sticker or patch to show our respect for the DEAD astronauts... DEAD... do you go to a funeral and start arguing in public about whether or not the dead guy deserves respect? NO, you stay quite, and complain over a drink in a bar or at home... this is the same idea... i'm all for the arguement, people have to right to an opinion... but not here, please not here...

if you don't support the idea of the respect sticker, make a valid arguement, or :ahh: don't use it!?!?!?!?!

make your arguements about if the dead space men's sacrifice is equal to jumping on a grenade or dying trying to save someones life....
__________________________

now to completely contradict myself and respond -
their death is completely seperate from jumping on a bomb, what they did was die trying to enchance science, their experiments up there might have led to cured cancer, or inspired some child to do so, but had nothing to do with saving lives

who could they have saved? any major bombs go off, any missiles launched? what could they have stopped on earth?

you can't say they died saving lives, but you can't dismiss the fact that they died doing something that helped other people, not themselves (sure they got money, but was it worth the risk?)