Team 179's Swamp Thing
 

Hi,

I just wanted to post our status to see what people thought of this crazy thing. We have a little left to do but for the most part we're ready to go. We've been driving for almost 2 weeks now. BTW Thanks to FIRST for a great kit of parts this year. They've brought quality to every team right where it matters most (those transmitions and motor mounts are fantastic). They made life sooooo much easier! I also want to give a big thanks to all the kids this year who really put in an outstanding effort. Just think folks, this rush will all be over in 10 more days (I think).. whew...
So anyhow I'm going to attempt to post pics of it (I'm not good at this forum posting stuff) so wish me luck..

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...gle&picid=3683

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...gle&picid=3682

I've also got 3 cool videos I want to post. They're handy as far as seeing the results of a "low blow" to the tall stacks. I'm going to attempt a link to those on my webspace next...

Go FIRST!

What are you going to do if your alliance mate can't go under the bar? What about if your opponent can? (i.e. take a smack while you are rolling over the wall?

Other than those two questions, steller, stellar, bot.

wow.

Cool Robot,

I have just one question, how long does it take for you to get over the ramp and start moving?

Our kickstand is off the ground at 1.2 seconds, so if the opponent tried to ram us he'd have to be seriously fast. we're over the wall and flat on the ramp at 2.2 seconds. Then it takes about 1.5 - 2 seconds to make contact with the bins. Also we can do a 180 in about 1 second, so they can't sneek up on us.
Our theory on the alliance is to give them the ramp and we hold off the opponent. But if needed we can push on through to our side of the field to let them buy, or get a little sideways. It's really more of a finals type idea that's intended to block the opponent from any points other than human bins. If we're successfull we'll probably score low all day but hopefully get picked in the finals. I think we'll be a great ally for an "under the bar stacker". We've tried it out on our 2001 bot and it seems the wedge shape is going to be difficult to get by. It really holds the hdpe well (we can push the students off the hdpe in a manual pushing match). And it really holds strong on the grating. Theres 6 wheels down the length of it, so its got traction all the way and it's not lanky at all. It's very short and stout with a fairly steep angle if you should try to go over it.

Just one quick question. If a team happens to be fast enough to hit you before you go over the ramp adn your robot falls on its side, would you be able to move your robot in that position or would you be dead in the water?

Cool, I got the links up, here's some neat vids:

Sorry I had to take those down, my "Bandwidth limit was exceeded" :aah:

Heh, yah we can flail a bit. We're also contemplating another gizmo for deployment straight out on the field to go after human bins. Dunno if you can see those 6 wheels stick out the back and we can run on thos kinda to, but not smoth, not intended. Also thinking about a wheelie bar. But we're hovering at 130lbs right now so we gotta limit our options.

Thats crazy, and to think I didnt believe Matt :P

Greg

Excellent robot. I think that its a really cool and innovative take on how to be a ramp blocker. Good luck.

Light rule...
 

Where is your light?

Is is always upright?

This could be an issue if FIRST keeps to the current rules.

Joe J.

P.S. very cool robot. Bold plan. You may just end up being the team everyone is puzzling over, trying to figure a plan to beat you.

actually, 810's bot can probably get around this pretty easily :).

two questions though.

1) What if you're spun and pushed half onto the wiremesh?

2) What if your partner can't go under the bar?

A second bridge-blocker would be a lot more dangerous than you think. A 10-foot+ wide robot with massive torque could have a lot of fun with stacks and rouge boxes. If only one opponent can travel under the bar, I'm sure the bridge-blocker could stop them (on carpet rather than HDPE and only a 5 ft area to protect). A 2x Bridge-Blocker alliance is almost invincible (though not incredibly high scoring). :cool:

Great idea
 

How much does your robot weigh?

And could you post a video of going over the ramp?

it looks like thier wheels can rotate, so they'd be able to correct themselves probably in about 6 seconds, based on that video they have set up showing how easily they can turn up there

I'm glad the only competition we have against them is nats.

Gahhh...
 

Gahhh....

We surrender.

Your starting strategy is exactly the same as ours, but about four times faster and four feet wider. More than that if we don't hurry up on construction...

With a 10-foot wide bot, your turning must be incredible, but has the width given you any problems with maneuvering on the playing field?

You do realize that the wedge will turn your robot into a ski jump... I envision a bunch of robots cowering in the corner of the field because they can't push you and they're afraid to go over you.

I was thinking the same thing just use the wedge and run right over them. All though we may end up with a broken bot.
Nope twelve foot area to protect and that would be quite hard for one robot to do. Considering that there are two bars on each side of the arena.

are you sure when you're going over the lexan you aren't violating any of the rules about contacting field structures? it looks like you almost latch onto it, and they specifically said you can't do that in the kickoff.

i'm not sure that's what you're doing, but it looks like you are in the (somewhat in the) 2nd and 3rd picture...


*jeremy

Very interesting. Any videos of deployment over the wall we can watch?

i'm also curious about how the net gets between the kickstands? in one picture, it's not there, but a few pictures over it is...

???

*jeremy

If an opponents bot gets up faster than yours.. do you have enough power to push them around?

Amazing Bot Tho

Dan

Stuid question but what happenes after seeing your robot the other teams if there robot can go under the bar decide to chase after yours during the autonomous period.

Here's some answers:
1. No we never touch the wall it's like a pole vault.
2. Our light may be a prob, if I mount it like one of the many conflicting rules suggest I'd have to serve it up for a volley, and then we'd have a busted light by the 2nd match. So I'm going to make an optional mount and bring it and show the judge if they don't like where we put it (which can be seen clearly from any angle and at all times) then I'll show them our only option and it'll be obvious we'll have a broken light thereafter.
3. The net is tied between the kickstands all the time (it was off while we are working on them, still need pistons for those)
4. Yah we can push, but I'm sure theres a lot stronger bots. We're just not exposing a surface for them to push on.
5. ski slope yes :-)
6. we get amazing drivability on the ramp, theres a double hinge at the center of it which allows it to contour to the ramp at any angle. We drive each side separate like a tank (using a joystick for each side).
7. if someone wants to come around behind us we can just turn around, but the idea was to get all the bins. So if someone beats us to the stack, we're going to try and collect them in our net and push them back.
8. Currently just heard we're 130.5 lbs so were getting out the drill and puttin her on a diet :-( (I like them full figured)

I'm curious why other teams don't want to show there Bot at this stage. It's to late to design another bot, and with 700 other teams out there who cares what 1 teams strategy is. If people decided to make adjustments to deal with our bot, personally I'd feel pretty good about that. To think we were that important to another teams design. I just don't see it, everyones got too much to think about. It's all about learning and fun so whatever happens happens, I'm not to concerned. It's not like we've got anything to loose (last year we had a really good bot, but lost horribly at Nat's due to unrelenting fate). Seems like luck has a lot to do with how you place at these things. But then again there's always certain teams who just know what to do (wish we knew how to do that).

Also while I have this opportunity I just wanted to say to first the Mentors: Don't give up folks, your efforts are not in vain. The kids get something out of it whether we get acknowledgment or not. This program is so needed, and I'm really glad I got to be a part of it.

and to the Kids:
Our team every year gets a number of new students, and sure enough there are those few who just can't wait to get there hands dirty. And every year at this point I'm worn out and just want to give up. But those kids (the ones who really care) are why I keep doing this. So if your a student please understand "we need you to care"!! It's easy to get excited about this at the competitions (but thats a little late)....

Ok, getting off my soap box :-)

Anyhooo, thanks for your comments!
G/L everyone

uh, what about the back? i didn't see any ramp there on the video. can't a robot that goes under the bar come up and push you around? i'd call that an exposed surface (unless of course, that part of the ramp just wasn't on yet).

If it had wedges on both sides of the robot it would not be a ski ramp anymore. It would be a speed bump. Btw you still did not answer the question about a robot coming under the bar in autonomous mode and getting in the way. It may be fast but the robots are right next to each other.

My two questions are the following what happens if an alliance rams you while your vaulting. Also would bins falling on your bot mess up your deployment? I am envisioning you in midvault and somebody just knocks over the wall and all of a sudden "Avalanche".

Here's my thought process on those:
As I said before we can turn around, then they get the wedge on the other side. But lets say they're double teaming it and we're getting hit from both sides, then we effectively distracted both opponents and most likely still got the bins, and it wouldn't be easy to spin us around if your teammate was on the other side of us. But thats not to say we think this thing can do it all. I'm sure we'll have all kinds of crazy things happen. And I know we didn't think of everything - thats impossible.

The thought process on the opponent coming under the bar at us full speed is reasoned out by odds. I figure 50% of teams go under the bar, then out of that 50% they have to start on our side of the ramp (so thats 25%) then they have to have a ramming program maybe 50% of those so 13%. Then out of those 13% they have 4 motors with a nice transmition and traction and come screaming at us. Then they still need to elevate after coming from under the bar at us cuz were about 1-2 feet off the ground at that point. Then they run the risk of smacking there arm on our frame. I think the odds really start dropping off at that point. But since I pointed all this out it's gonna happen. Even then I think with the momentum we built up while flipping I think the only damage would be a bent kickstand. I'm probably too optomistic. But also we took an opponent out of the bin stampede giving our ally better odds.

If someone knocks those bins on us in under 4 secs they deserve to win :-) and it doesn't really matter how we do heh. But the front is reinforced all the length with struts so it can take a pounding

I don't have a vid of the flip sorry ;-)

When I do though I need a server to post the vids. I got like 450 viewings of those vids I posted and my ISP sent me a nastygram :-( I'll probably get some crazy fee too... ugh..

I promise to get one after the pistons get here (come on UPS)!!

i think your odds are slightly off, but that's ok...

i'm not sure 4 seconds is entirely accurate either, but hey if you can do it, i'll bow down to you lol

the reason i say that is the speed of the pistons (i'm assuming that's what you're using to flip/vault)

that would be an amazing achievement :)

*jeremy

Light solution?
 

An absolutely AWESOME machine, Swampdude!!! :D Man I'm glad we're not facing you guys this year! That ramp-cliff scares the heck out of me!

How about mounting the gumball on a "spill-proof houseboat cup holder", within your machine? You simply whip up a pivoted "U" holder for the gumball, and keep the gumball's center of gravity below the pivot. Think of it as a solid version of a kid's playground swing, but it doesn't have to have a solid crossbar at the top (in fact you could probably have the lens entirely above the swing axis).

Set it up so the swing axis is parallel to the unfolding axis. Now, it'll always right itself as you unfold, and be in the right orientation to meet spec. In fact, if you're clever and use insulated bushings to electrically isolate the hinge pins from the chassis, you could probably even feed the power to it through the pivot pair to eliminate a dangling wire! :D

If you wish this inside and protected, you'd have to replace a couple of chunks of the green exterior paneling with something transparent so it's visible on all sides, but that shouldn't be a problem, right? ;)

- Keith

:D <laughs> :D

I knew someone was going to be crazy enough to actually succeed in this design. A big congrats for pulling it off, you will be a force to reckon with :yikes:

hmm
 

people have to remember that there are many aspects to this game. dominating the ramp is but one of them.

until the first regional takes place, the happenings in the matches themselves are still verymuch up in the air.

anything is possible.

also: most robots look intimidating- until you push them across the field and reverse their motors.

a few questions that i have for you...

1. what are you using for your drive motors?
2. what kind of gearing are they?
3. your light is definatly illegal the way its mounted.
3. and do you foresee any weaknesses?

...WOW...
Bad

Since you can't see your light from all sides, I think you should do something, cut out some of the green material (or use clear lexan) or just mount it higher in the middle. Seems to me like it's fine to have it start sideways (ours did last year), you should have no worries in that aspect, just make it so you can see it from all sides.

BTW, if you want, I can host some videos for you, e-mail them, and I can get them up sometime tonight probably. I'm sure we all want to see this thing go up and over the side. johcagaorl@cox.net

yea bots have been allowed to have thier lights mounted in a vertical position.
but there has been a rule change and the light is illegal the way its mounted now.


Bad

What motors do you use to get the robot over the wall? With the output torque needed and the speed you say you can do it, I think your lying.

agreed
 

they can definitely not do it with motors in 2.2 seconds.

the gearing would have to be insane to get 100 plus pounds over a 3 foot something wall 5 feet away from the axis of revolusion for 270 something degrees

the only forseeable way to do it is through pneumatics.

ill believe it when i see it on video.

Wow!
 

Well, needless to say, I am very impressed. I am dying to see this robot in action. You may already have won my scratch-award for coolest robot of 2003! I just go back and remember my favorite pole vaulting robot in 2001, that team 25 made. This one, if its as impressive as you speak, might just put that one to shame! Good Luck!

-Andy Grady

Still the thing is on a mono pod. It is very precarious in that configuration. One little hit from a robot while it is on that monopod and kaboom you will tip over.

Thats what I was thinking...what if an under the bar robot shoots under the bar and hits you when you'r lifting yourself up. Your center of gravity is pretty high there, and just a small bump looks like it could topple you over.

Thats cool but does it meet the dimension requirements

I realize that I'm not on 179 but perhaps I can help

1. Looking closely when It is in its Starting position, Near the top you can see The Gear Boxes That FIRST gave to all teams, so most likely Drill Motors
2. See #1, and what ever the gear ratio is for the Gears that FIRST gave all teams
3. Prove it
4. Possibly Twisting on the bridge if they get hit from both sides

But again I'm not on there team so I could be completely wrong, Dont take anything thing I say to be true or untrue.

Re: hmm
 

There are many strategies yes, but if a 'king of the hill' robot are successful at doing what they are suppose to do... all they need is an alliance partner who can drive (not necessarily go under the bar) to have a 90% chance of winning.

Of course, things rarely go the way you intend them to :yikes:

Re: agreed
 

They never said they did it in 2 seconds. They flip over the wall in two seconds. They dont hit the boxes in two seconds. who cares if it takes two seconds, or a few more, I'd imagine itd be faster than any other method. Im worried that something goes wrong and you crash down on the polycarb sides (Or are they Lexan) If that happens, I don't ever see the officials letting you run the bot like that again.

Cory

well, in all reality lots of good teams are gonna be goin bout 10ft per second, and i do think that they will be under 4 maybe even under 3 seconds to the top (our team can do it under 3 but i aint sayin how hehehe)

Yeah Abe is right our bot ( #710 ) is gettin up almost as fast as they are flippin over maybe

or is that top secret :-)

bah what ever

Yeah, we're about 15 fps (with lots of torque too :) )
We haven't gotten our "Ramp Race" code/parts quite finished, but we should have the capability of getting there fast...
And pushing quite a load.....
Too bad we won't bee seeing you guys :(
Looks great though!

In the Image Discussuin on the wedge view of their bot, Swampdude stated that the wedge is clear lexan. The green is just a scratch resistant cover that hasn't been peeled off.

I would say so. At it's highest point that wall is only 4' tall. From the perspective I am seeing, their bot looks to be about 4'8" (Including that wheel up top for the splits). I can only assume they've built within their 30x36 limits. I think they'll be OK, they aren't a rookie that is possibly misreading rules, they've seen the footprint rule for the past 3 or more years.


Swampdude: do you happen to have a known the flip time of
Autonomous Start -> Land on Mesh (not extended) ?


Can't say enough about this thing, simply beautiful.

Sweet...we had about half our team gathered around the laptop, wide-eyed...just staring.

So while you are blocking the ramp, we just have to toss fifteen bins over the bar, and hope your alliance partner can't toss them back.

So....is the wedge just to tempt the opponent drivers to catch some air, or were you planning to let us push bins up and over it?

Well, lexan is a pretty slick surface, and I can only imagine if it were waxed. At that angle, looks to be 30-45º I would guess it'll be to direct forces from robots coming up the ramp upwards giving themselves a traction additive. Their kickstands, when up are for blocking some boxes and being that they are motorized, they can angle them for the most effective area.

But I believe, by previous statements I've read that the wedge is there for pushing bot's around when they try to get on/over the ramp. Will be interesting. Only problem I see is that they won't be able to have an alliance mate up top with them. And if they do it will be very difficult not to have one on the ramp touching them.

If they are to make it to elim's I guess they would own the ramp and alliance would have to do the stack-work, both offense and defense

Lexan
 

I guess we might spray it with some PAM before each match


Tytus Gerrish [179 SwampThing]

Re: Lexan
 

I'm guessing that would be considered a lubricant and that might go against rule DA2

Lubracant
 

ok
but the grin painted on the lexan would problay scare all the little bots away

I'm looking forward to seeing this bot in Orlando this year. Looks cool, but you can never tell 'til the end. I hope it can take a few hits from the Demolition Squad. ;)

sorry 179

matt bays just told me it was a failure, the pneumatic cylinders dont have enough power to put the bot up and over...

it was an awesome idea...

good luck in the competitions

Matt Is correct!
 

Yes the pistons werent strong enough. BUT! look we have A contengency! it is slower, but it will work

This picture was taken 2-13-03

Tytus Gerrish [Taam 179]

Swamp
 

Do you Think this is a good look for me?


Tytus Gerrish[team179]

Awesome Robot!!.....but.....
 

From what I'm getting from some of the latest posts, you're robot can't get over the ramp wall with pneumatics. That really sucks:( ....seriously. I couldn't tell from the picture you posted what you've changed, but I hope you get it working. That robot is kickin' and I can't wait to beat you in the nats.;)

Tytus, I understand this thread is on your robot... please keep it that way. Use the "Who Am I" for posting pictures of yourself.

And what is your backup idea? I can see the C-Clamps.. nothing new to lift up and over though.

That is
 

That You see is plan B The C-clamps are to hold the pices for welding

Someone on our team has seen a fatal flaw with the kickstand (If it does work). The rules specifically state that there can be no metal-carpet contact at ANY time. From the pictures we've seen, the kickstand violates that rule.

I assume lining the bottom of the kickstands with a soft rubber would make it legal. Can't wait to understand plan B.

heh
 

Let me just say that the kick stands are still with us but reincarnated into another form :eek: . As for plan B, around 11:00 PM we finally got it to show it's full potential. That's all for now.