Middle School Drivers
 

We at team 1000, a rookie team from Valparaiso Indiana, are arguing about who should drive and one of the main things being argued is if middle school student should drive. I think that they should not be allowed to drive for us for some key points.

1. The middle schools students that help our immature and don't focus well.

2. Other team would look down upon us, because of it.

3. They will eventually be high school students.

I would like to know how everyone else feels about this subject and if they are in favor of or are against the idea.

Our criteria for driving is

#1 Driving ability and knowledge of the game

#2 Amount contributed to the bot

#3 Seniority

mostly seniority, but if someone is really good at controling the robot than an older one, I'd give him a shot. Also another thing you should tak in to consideration is who can drive well while be at a competition with loud noise and a coach screaming in your ear.

i believe that if you allow ms students to work on your robot without allowing them to drive your being awfully agist. just because they're in ms doesn't mean they have less of a right to drive than anybody else, especially if the mentors have enough faith in them to even bring up that possibility

this is because of gelousy is it?

I personally think that if you want to be a driver you should know everything about the game(all the rules), you should be on the team of coarse, you should be part of the High School(when I say part of the High School I mean you should go to it), you should be constantly working on the robot, and you should work well under pressure.

no, the reason they wouldn't be abel to drive is that they're probably not very good at it.


excellence in control of the robot is the only criteria for our drivers. well, they DO have to be on the team of course...

We are a 99% homeschool team, and have a fair amount of 8th grade-or-less team members.

I am in 8th grade and have made it on the driving team, so my opinion might be somewhat BIOSed (I have been playing with computers for to long :) ) and I think you will guess what it is.

Re: Middle School Drivers
 

1. That seems to be an extreem generalization. I'm sure that there are some that are doing work and trying to stay a productive part of the team.. Of course those arent always the ones that want to drive.

2. I highly doubt this. If the middle school kids are good enough to be productive on the team and know what there talking about on the robot then most teams probably won't even realize its a middle schooler driving. Just make sure the person driving knows every detail about the robot, regardless of middle or high school.

3. This one I tend to agree with. The high school students don't have alot of time (4 seasons isn't enough, many dont even get that).

Before worrying about grade level i'd worry about knowledge and abilities. The driver needs to be able to compensate on the fly for problems mechanically, electronically, and in the programming. If the robot starts veering to the left they need to be able to quickly determine if the chain is binding, if the joystick isn't callibrated, or if its something else thats about to destroy the drive system or burn out the motors, and what to do to correct it, etc. If you have multiple operators you could let one of the middle school students handle the secondary controlls (ie box grabber, stacker, etc), or just be the extra player so they can still be in the driver station (I know its not the same but its still much better than being in the stands).

In my honest opinion, driver skill is more important than any other factor. Team 1197, the team I am with this year, has a freshman driver. While he is the youngest person and only freshman on the team, he did demonstrate the most skill during driver practice and when he drove the edu-robot. If a middle schooler wants to drive the robot, i think he should be judged by the same factors that any other potential driver is such as driving skill and dedication to the team. Too often teams get caught up in the whole senority debate and lose sight of whether their driver is really the most qualified individual.

Second, I do not think team's will look down on you because of your driver's age. I have been on 2 teams and told both of them that they should let their robot do the talking. Therefore, if you are competetive, your robot will speak for itself and you will not be looked down upon. Furthermore, it is not gracious professionalism to look down on another team simply because of driver age.

Anyway, that is just my opinion. I hope you get the best driver!

i do not agree that your team would be looked down upon. i believe that i, if not many other people in FIRST, would be impressed with a good driver no matter what the age. in fact, we might just be wowed by such a young driver.

i agree that driver skill and knowledge are more important than anything (besides participation). you might have an excellent driver, that didn't lift a finger during the season, and does not deserve to drive.

if you are arguing about it, pull out the robot, set up an obstacle course, have things thrown unexpectedly in front of the robot, and see who handles it best. may the best man (or woman) drive. but do not discriminate on the basis of age.

I thought our 8th grader couldn't be on the field. Silly me - I had interpreted the rule "pre-college" student to mean only high schoolers could be on the field.

Our 8th grader is an awesome human player.

We have a 10yo computer programmer whiz kid. He works awesomely independently and with high school kids or adults. Anyone else have elementary kids?

Re: Middle School Drivers
 

Our 8th graders are a couple of the best on our team. CJ is an awesome worker. Ashton learned 8 machines in 2 weeks, and has good insight on many things. Both of these kids work well with adults too.

There are three fair ways to select who drives:

A. Best driver drives
B. Drivers are rotated to allow everyone a chance to drive
C. Combination of the two

None of them should include age, expect when otherwise noted in the rules (example: college students can't drive :rolleyes: )

Under Best includes behavior on and off the field, so if someone is immature they should not be driving anyway... but don't generalize Middle School Students like that, there are just as many High School Students and College Students who are immature as well.

Amen!

For us most of the middle school kids that help don't really help that much. I admit that we do have a few that are very helpful though. We ourselves were looked down upon before for our age last year at the Chief Delphi competition @ Pontiac, Mi and we do not want it to happen again. We know that some high school students are also immature and they don't tend to focus that well either. I made the generalization that middle school students are immature by looking at the majority that attend the meetings to help. This is also not because of jealousy. This an important matter at hand for our team.

On our team, we don't let rookies drive simply because they have never been to a competition. We feel that it is important that they experience the competition from more of a spectator's pont of view before going out on the playing field. They should have a knowledge of what the competition is actually like. It doesn't matter if someone is a freshman or a senior, rookies can't drive.

- Katie

Our driver was a rookie <edit> and a freshman </edit> last year and he did really well and better than most veteran drivers...rookies can drive, its just that in most cases they cant because, yes they don't have the competition expierence

any one who signed up for comp team had to take a test on the rules of the game ,strategy and other things the people with the highest score and understanding of the game are on comp team no matter age or experience



drivers can be trained and experience has to start somewhere

I realized that there are some rookies out there who will drive than veterans, but we want them to know what a competition is like before they get out on the playing field. ::shrug:: it's just the way we do things.

- Katie

driving
 

This year we have two drivers on our team, and an alternate. What it really came down to was who knew how the robot worked, how much strategy they know, and whether or not they have been at the competition before. Our alternate, though every bit as good as the two regulars, hasn't been to a competition before so is, ultimately, the alternate.

As driver for our team last year, I'd say the qualifications for driver shoul include both good techinical driving ability and strategy. I've seen many a match lost because the driver wasn't utlilizing his time well. The only true teest of driver skills is an actual match. If the middle school students can prove they have a grasp on driving and strategy, I say give them a shot. You might want to also consider, however, they will have many more years to try for driver, and this will be your seniors last chance.

Our best driver on my old team drove every year from when he was in 8th grade till he graduated.

You definelty don't want a middle school driver if he/she is immature, but the same thing applies to a senior.

A drive should be someone who is capable of driving the machine without goofing off. This isn't a cookie-cutter situation. You have to talor the needs of each child. If one can work on the bot, but goof off when inappropreate, but another works a little on the bot but still contributes to the team a lot, and can be calm, then you can mabey consider him as a back-up. But overall, I would say no. Simple reason: SENORITY. It's how it'll be when they go into the job force and that's how life is. They know the ins and outs.

I still think on a rookie team there is no such thing as senority because everyone has no experience. Therefore a middle school driver has the same experience as a senior. Better yet, he will be returning to the team as a student and the senior will not, so maybe that middle school student will be the team driver for several years. This only applies to rookie teams in my opinion.

If the middle school students are good enough to drive, then I think they should be able to.

On the other hand, if he is just as good as other older drivers are then the older ones should be able to drive because of seniority.

And if the young kids really wanted to drive, give them a turn either before you ship the robot or after the competitions. That way it does not really count but they still get to drive.

In Regards to Middle School Drivers
 

Middle school aged drivers seems to be a decidedly divisive topic here. My $0.02 on the whole issue is as follows....

I am a four-year FIRST alumnus, but my years were split 1997-1998 and 2001-2002. Those first two years were spent at a school that was a combined middle school and high school. Needless to say, it was also before the advent of the FIRST Lego League. My team at that time was the original, and now defunct, US Coast Guard Academy team (Team 100 in 1997, before team number standardization, and team 124 thereafter). Our drivers were picked not by grade or seniority but by ability to control the robot in trials. In both 1997 and 1998, as a seventh and eighth grader, I was chosen as one of our robot drivers. Competing with robots that one can only call mediocre at best, we never finished higher than the top third at any competitions (1997 J&J Mid-Atlantic Regional, 1998 J&J Mid-Atlantic Regional, 1998 Nationals), but the fact remains that a middle school driver helped the team there.

Given that he/she has the skills necessary to drive the robot and the maturity to be a team player, I wholeheartedly approve of middle schoolers at the stick.

Ken Levin
#571 Paragon Alumnus

Also consider that the pilots/copilots must

A) get along with eachother, and with the coaches

B) be able to make competant decisions

C) Listen to both coaches

Maturity is also a factor, and it's also nice to give senors a chance to drive, since often they are the most level-headed. You don't want your driver to freak out and go rambo on ya.

This is a stupid question but what grades are middle school for your schools anyway??????????????????

What's stupid? Used to be 7-8, in '99 went to 6-8th.

We have always favored younger drivers so that we have returning drivers with on-field experience for future years.

Adam

Perhaps you don't realize but there are some teams out there that are Middle School teams. Of course they should allow middle schoolers to drive. I know teams don't look down upon these teams for having middle school drivers and in some respects most of the time they act better than high schoolers.

I think that it's important for them to be in the program and get comfortable with it before that take on that kind of pressure. It's important to actually see a competition before they drive in one. I know that there have been some exceptional rookie drivers, although age is another factor to keep in mind. At that age they are more suceptible to pressure, and take a harder hit from criticism.

FIRST is a big load as is, not to mention driving your team added to your load. Don't take on too much.

For me, the answer is simple. If your team permits middle school students to join, then they should have all the oppurtunities available to them as would a senior. For driving, a test should be administered based on SKILL and a written test on rules knowledge is also nice. If the middle school student happens to be the best driver, then I would say, let them do it.

I agree. If a middle school is better than older drivers, understands the rules, and has been a contributive member of their team, there is no reason why they should not be able to be a driver.

I can, however, see why seniors should get priority since it is their last year to have the opportunity to drive, while middle schoolers will have many more years.

Here's an interesting flip. I am a middle school student on my team, and although I wanted to be a driver, I decided not to for two main reasons - 1. it would seem awkward having a middle schooler driving a high school robotics team's robot and 2. I am going to have 4 more years on the team AS A HIGHSCHOOLER and in that time I have a good chance of being a driver.

I personally think that if a middle school student wants to be the driver then they are pushing their privilege too far. They are lucky to be on the team they are on, and most likely their team membership would be cut much faster than a highschoolers if they did something wrong. With all this said, my vote would have to go for Middle school students are allowed to be on the team, but not to be the driver.

Middleschool drivers
 

I can appreciate your wanting to keep a low profile and wait until you feel the time is right. I hope you have all the opportunities to drive that you want in the next few years.

I think the choice of driver depends on skill and maturity, not age per se. The ability to work as a team under stress and compensate for the unexpected is needed. Last year, my older son was a senior and was one of our two drivers. He did well, partly because he knew the drivetrain and partly because he is a veteran gamer, so he's very good with the controls. Maturity certainly helped, and that was his second year.

My younger son is an eighth grader, and is one of several people nominated by the team tonight for one of the two driving positions this year. He also is a second year veteran and has helped on several aspects of the design and construction. In fact, our robot layout closely follows the Lego model that he designed. However, I'm not sure just how ready he is to perform during those two minute periods of total pandemonium on the field. If his teammates vote him in, I'm all behind him and them. However, I think he would have a better chance at success (or gracefully handling failure) if he waited a bit longer.

As for those who are afraid to be seen with a middleschooler on the field, think again. I've worked briefly with some of the kids on the Lego League teams and there are some amazingly competent young people out there. Give them a chance and don't worry about appearances.

Last year i was in the 8th grade, but i was a major contributer to the robot. I wasnt really outgoing because i was just their to help out, so i would always stay on task. I thought it was over on the ship date, but the teacher invited me to the compititions that we were attending. I was the second operator, and a senior was the main driver, because of his seniority on the team and in age. When we were invited to the nationals, the whole team was very happy. On the flight there, i realized that our main driver wasnt with us, and it turned out his mom didnt want him traveling anymore. So i was deemed driver, and the teacher told me the strategy on the way their. This year i am the driver, although i havent been on the team longest

this year the challenge for driver was in a written test, about the game, how to controll it, and what do do when problems occour.
Then there was going to be a drive-off between me and 2 others, but one had to go to colorado, so he lost his chance. we never really had a drive-off because we were trying to get an autonomous program. The other driver decided she would be better off being a stratagist in the driving station.

Kevcan

I completely agree!

I totaly agree. If you are part of a high school team, then you are lucky and have another 8-5 years that you can work with. You shouldn't drive! It's the seniors and juniors who only have 1 more year or it's their last year should drive. It's a privalage and your time to represent your team.

I think that with all that has been said, it has been narrowed down to two main reasons. one for why mid school student can, and one why they can't drive.

1.The best driver of the middle school students should be chosen because then, if they are exceedingly good at driving, they can be driver the next 4 or more years too. (I personally do not like this one because once you find your driver, he is then the driver for the next 4 years too and therefore, although your team would have a great advantage with the very experienced driver, no one else gets a chance to be driver untill he/she leaves for college)
and
2.The best driver of the oldest students should be driver because it is their last year on the team and everyone will get their shot at driver when they are a senior. (Although this one is giving more people a chance at ebing driver, the team has a driver who is brand new at it every year and this gives them a possible disadvantage. one way to solve the disadvantage if a team ran this way would be to train the students interested in being driver during their junior year and then, in their senior year they would be more experienced)
using the above two things, I have come up with, what I think would be the best way for a team to chose drivers, it keeps an experienced driver in the hot seat, but also gives many team members a chance to drive.

3. When a student shows interest in being driver, he/she is trained driving a robot (possibly on the EDUbot or bots from the teams previous years when this years bot is not available) and then when driver picking time comes around: a sophomore is chosen for the secondary or helper driver, and a junior or senior is chosen for main driver. This would keep the main drivers trained while also keeping sure that everyone gets a fair chance at being driver.

this sure is turning out to be an interesting topic.