A little bitter...
 

I have to admit, that even though ive realized it and pushed it aside I am still a little bitter about only even teams getting to go to nationals without winning.

This is my rookie year, and also my last year as a student (This is my senior year)

While I dont exclude the remote posibilty of beating such awsome teams, including but not limited to 188. The chances seem slim.

From what ive heard it is an experience people never forget and I am a tad bitter I will miss out.

No real point to this rant, I understand the need for the ruling, and dont contest it. Just wanted to see if there are any other disapointed rookie odds.

Hey Veterans can feel left out too...even after a bunch of trips down there......It is like knowing a friend is having a big party and you are not invited.....But there is next year....see you there then!!! Only about 450 days to go!!

David, the real irony is I go to uinversity next year, I plan on starting a team with a local highschool, but what will more than likely happen (and drive me insane at the same time) will probably get an even number for the team :D

Fourtunately I will be competing in the first FIRST Canadian regional, which looks like its going to be one kick *** event.

the trick is to try really hard to invite yourself :)

cough, win.

-anton :D

Or...

Pay your own way and come hang out. Thats what a good chunk of team 000 does. You definetley wont run out of people to visit with ;)

I would actually honestly consider paying my own way.

But that would require savings, which I dont have.

And even if I did that would require putting off saving for up and comming $60k education...

Northeast Floridians...
 

I am wondering which of you Team 000s are from the Northeast and would like to head down to Florida for the NAtionals? (this is of course if we dont win)...

Let's all pay our way down there via Amtrack. I heard it was loads of fun!

-anton

Amtrak is wicked awesome, but also wicked expensive.....and plus, I cant afford to take the time off for 30+ hours each way.

Thats why Im flying down, even though Im teamless

Re: A little bitter...
 

[quote]Originally posted by Jordan A.
[b]I have to admit, that even though ive realized it and pushed it aside I am still a little bitter about only even teams getting to go to nationals without winning.

What is it about even numbered teams being able to go to the nationals without winning? This is the first time that I've heard anything about that subject. So, either no one in my team knows about it or I've just been kept out of the loop. If anyone has anymore information regarding this subject or know where I can get them, then please let me know...especially since we're an even numbered team (368) .:D

Re: Northeast Floridians...
 

Nah! Pat Dingle and I went via Greyhound last year (I from Boston, MA; he from Ithaca, NY meeting in NYC) :) Now that was fun ;) and a rather interesting trip all in the same time!

Thanks again to the Rudolph family of team 168 that gave us lifts to the competition and me a place to stay :cool: You rock Jason!! :D

~ lora

Move the Nationals?
 

Hey all.... interesting posts. just out of curiosity, what's the feeling of moving Nationals out of Orlando to a less expensive venue? Or even having two "nationals", one for the East and one for the West? DO we HAVE to have a final FINAL so there is a declared national champ? (I know I know.. dumb question...)


Best

Steve Alaniz





"You're saying we can look forward to robots behaving badly and demanding higher salaries..." - Sally Forth

Re: Move the Nationals?
 

This whole topic is a horse that was already beaten to death repeatedly when FIRST made the announcement about Orlando this year. However, I'm going to just make two points:

1. Re. a split "nationals": As of a couple years ago, the team distribution leaned much more towards the east side of the country. While I know there has been a lot of growth in the past couple years, I have a feeling that this is still most likely the case, looking at the distribution of regionals.

2. Re. moving away from Disney: I've heard this one suggested quite a few times myself, and the one thing that always comes to mind is that, when FIRST made the decision to limit Nationals, it was due to the fact that it was becoming too large to manage well, and we were reaching the limits of the space available at Disney for us to use. While moving away from Disney would solve the space problem, it would only be a temporary solution. With FIRST's current growth rate, in 2-3 years, we would have to be looking for a new location to compete again, if we continue allowing everyone to attend. Also, as has been mentioned on this board repeatedly, FIRST is a non-profit organization with a very small staff (only 20-25 people.) Eventually, a point would be reached where they could not get enough people, between volunteers and staff, to manage running the event. As it stands now, a considerable number of the people working at Nationals are Disney staff who have been moved from their normal job to help at the event "village." If a move was made, all of these people would have to be replaced in some way.

From NY, the Amtrak trip is 24 hours, and costs about $350 each way, or something ridiculous. Train travel isn't cheap in this country (which does quite well to explain why passenger railways are all but gone and Amtrak has yet to make a profit) . . .

Also, there's only one train every two days, making travel dates less flexible.

Flying is a much better option, I think. . . or driving, if you're crazy (Maybe Robby will come pick y'all up??). I'd offer seats on our flight, but the only room left on the plane is for baggage . . . there's something exciting about saying, "I'll take the rest of the plane" when you're talking to a travel agent.

Entitlements
 

As far as the rules changes, I welcome them with open arms, and think they should be taken even further, towards removing the entitlement program offered to even, then odd teams, each year.
I would suggest that more teams who finish in the top places in the Regionals should be allowed to go, so that the trip is earned.

As is with the sports model FIRST is based on, you should need to have a certain level of performance to compete in the Nationals, and not be allowed to go just because you have an odd or even number.

This will actually be fairer to high school seniors, make the Nationals a better event, and be more like in the real world (where you have to earn things).

Just my thoughts.

Scott358

Scott, you make a great point. I whipped out the calculator and a quick product gave a pretty good number

17*16=272

Now 17 = number of regionals
16 = number of teams in the elimination tournaments at each regional
272 = just 16 less than the intended first goal (288)

now I know its to late to start this, but if there is one more regional started up we have a pretty interesting solution, possibly for later years

Any thoughts?

My thought is that FIRST has set up nationals in a way that eventually there will be no "open" spots (you have to qualify in some way). I basically think that over the course of several years we'll see fewer and fewer of the "open" spots available as they get filled up by the increasing number of teams that are able to attend by qualification. The whole point of doing this long term is so that FIRST doesn't have to deal with the numbers of people who will complain that they don't get to go without qualifying (there get enough complaints over how it's setup this year). So I think eventually everyone will have to qualify but I'd love to see FIRST implement something to even the ability to qualify for teams based on the number of events you attend.

Matt

AUUUGGGHHH!!!!
 

WHOA! Jordan!
NOT ANOTHER REGIONAL!!! Sorry, as a regional co-ordinator, I'm surprized we have 17 this year! And that groan you heard was the blurry eyed folks of FIRST and Deka who travel during the competition period helping run the regionals rolling over to take a good look at you so they know who to blame when regional 18 becomes a reality...
But overall you make a great point.



Best Wishes

Steve Alaniz


"Ted, the microwave just exploded your soup..." - Sally Forth
" Once again, technology turns on it's masters." - Ted Forth

Driving to robot-related activities is awesome! Ive done it multiple times and probably one year (once I get a car and the courage to drive on the highway again), I'll be driving myself to Nationals. But for now, its the airways for me...

And my take on adding regionals...there are many people that are willing to help FIRST out by volunteering their time (I do it willingly over and over just to keep involved in the project)...FIRST just needs to ask around.

::looking with shifty eyes::
 

Alright! How far has my driving-to-kickoff-from-florida gotten? Cause as far as I know, Only the peeps I was with and talked to at kickoff knew. But I do have to relay that story some time... It was, um, interesting. Especially on that 18 hour straight drive from connecticut, to jacksonville FL. By the last two I thought I was a hummingbird... (guess the toon I stole that from=^)

Oh, and I also thought It would be cool to do the drive up again next year and to other events, but to actually arrange to rent SUV's or vans or borrow them from people who own, and have 4 to a vehicle FIRST tailgate party, wagon train kinda things. Thoughts on that???

-Robby O
FIRSTanimators Moderator
oshortwan@hotmail.com

No matter how they set up which teams get to go, there is always going to be a lot of unhappy teams. I think FIRST has done the best job they can in this situation.

It's quite obvious FIRST has reasons for limiting the number in nationals. For one thing, there's only so many people that can fit in Epcot's parking lot city. Organizationally and logistically, over 300 teams can be a nightmare. (we have enough trouble managing just ours) Providing qualification requirements is just a "nice" way of limiting who can attend. Also, how fair of a competition is it when the first seed from one regional faces the last seed of another?

Jordan, you forgot one thing. Each alliance in the tournament is 3 teams. So it's 24*17=408 teams. Thats a bit more. Plus you forgot the three awards you can win at regionals to go to nationals, so that's another 51 teams. 459 teams total.

Even though we don't get to get in on the first come first serve teams this year, it makes you strive to have the best bot you can think up and build. At the same it also inspires us to improve other qualities of our team and work more on other, usually less thought of awards like the Chairman's Award. And if you think about it, in retrospect, the Chairman's Award *if awarded properly* is even more important then winning with the robot. Enough of morals and ethics.

Otherwise, for you graduating seniors, don't worry! I had two years of FIRST in high school and now, I'm not in college, but I am a mentor of two teams. There are a lot of colleges that are prime to have teams started. That's how our team got started.

my 2 cents again on this subject.


If I only had to depend on our robot to win. these rules would be great. but when you have to depend on the luck of the draw ( if it is luck :rolleyes: ).

You can have the best robot but if you get paired up with bad teams then you lose.

I still think everybody has to have a chance to win.


in the past I still can't under stand why we play with the same partners more than once and there are still team that we have not been paired up with.

It is all up to the FIRST gods.

Oh course, being paired up with bad teams doesn't mean you're screwed, it just means you hope that other teams see that you've got a kick a** robot. We had horrible QP in regionals and made it to semi-finals our rookie year and finals last year.

Advertise, strategize, and pray to the holy gods of FIRST that someone notices you. That or you can go around and beg teams to pick you.

Thanks for the correction on the math 401, I actually completely forgot about the third team.

Also I just want to make it clear that while I am "A little bitter..." I completely understand and agree with the ruling. I am not trying to whine and complain or "beat the dead horse" just sparking an interesting discussion on it. Which I think I accomplished.

Either way, I plan on starting a team next year with whatever University I go to.

Perhaps I might plan a RT (Road Trip) with other Canadian left outs.

Happy follow up:

Team 781 was a member of the winning aliance at the Canadian regional. SO we are off to florida!!!!

Many teams get into eliminations at multiple regionals, so your # would probably fall short. Although if you added the judged award winners and top rookie seeds, it might get you closer to the number. FIRST currently seems torn between letting all teams have a shot at nationals and letting teams that have earned it come to nationals. If they choose the earn your way, I think they should seperate the regionals and Nationalsby a few more weeks to allow teams time to get the trip put togethor. Also we would need cooperation from Disney, as it will be very hard to reserve that # of hotel rooms that late in the season, maybe they could hold a set # of rooms for FIRST teams or soemthing.

You can also go by winning a award, this seems to be generating more intrest in those now then without the restrictions.

How about:

The top 8 seeds from each regional qualify 8
+
All finalists & winners of each regional 4 (- top seeds)
+
Chairmans award winners 1
+
Higest Rookie Seed 1 (possible top 8)
+
Rookie of the year 2 (possible top 8)
x
17 regionals
=_________________________________________________ _
total 272

This is close to the number & it eliminates human error. It stink if you didn't get the #1 seed because of a scoring error by the judges. This puts a little less focus on winning & a little more on doing well. If you feel like it throw in an other award because there will be some overlap from regional to regional.

Not All Teams Can Afford To Go
 

I Think alot of teams have to pass on Florida because they just don't have enough money. Whether or not you have a good robot doesn't mean a thing if your broke.
Also it isn't practical to send regonal champs, Chairman's award winner ect. You can't book rooms at Disney two weeks in advance. That just isn't going to happen. :eek:

DUDE!! JORDAN!!! You got to go to the nationals!!! I know you did!! We won the canadian regional with you guys!!! I was in the pit, i should know!! Remember the Cinderella Alliance? We kicked some serious arse and earned your way to Florida!!! And you get to go next year too!!! WTF is the problem?!?

You got to go anyways!

Ok. posting again. A little calmer now. i just noticed the date on the first message. Before the Canadian Regional eh? That sort of explains it. It looked there for a second like you were complaining you had the earn your way to the regional. I was ready to drive all the way up to Kincardine and give you a wedgie.

So it all turned out eh? That's really someting I'll never forget, taking that regional. First Candaian team to ever win.. ANYTHING. And only one year experience between the 3 of us. Maybee that's a record too. Does anyone know if an all rookie team has ever won a regioanl? If the answere is no, we at least tied the record.

The only problem about letting the top 8 finishers to go to Nationals is that you will not know you qualify until about a month before Nationals. This would make arranging travel plans rather difficult, and exepensive. Also some teams go to more than one regional, what happens if they finish in the top 8 twice. If you let the number 9 team go in one of those spots, from which regional would that team come from?

I agree that in the future a better system has to be developed, but it has to give the team enough notice to make their arrangments.

Look at the good side, next year when you go, you can ride that cool new Epcot ride, Mission: Space.

I don't know about a Regional but the first two years of FIRST the Championship was won by rookie teams. Of course in the first year that is all there was. :)

Mission: Space won't open any earlier than May of next year, so you will miss it when you go to the Nationals. So you will have to either go back to EPCOT later in the year, or wait until the 2004 Nationals.

On the other hand, I can tell you it will be worth the wait!

-dave

initially i was upset about the decision that only even teams could go since im on an odd team and this is my senior year

i think the main reason a lot of us feel that way it that we were getting to the point where nationals was taken for granted...... a big part of the fun is that there are hundreds of teams... but anyone else out there whos been doing this for a while knows that the first years of the nationals there werent even as many teams there as at some of the regionals from recent years.... also how many other programs allow everyone who participates to go to the championship? we are pretty lucky that first has made it so that even new teams can hang on to the inspiration by being invited automatically every other year.......and also we could always split it up into two semi championships, or something like that....... but it would only be a temporary solution because first is growing at such a high rate that in a few years even a double championship wouldnt be enough.... and then what do you do? make a quadruple championship? wouldnt that be a really big regional?
i guess im just saying, we feel bitter because we are used to being able to go.... but first had to do what they did, and we really should be excited about the growth and the fact that theres so many more opportunities to play other teams because of the growth (more regionals, summer competitions etc)

lucklily my team invited itself twice and we made it down there even with financial problems