Constant pinning changes the game from 2 v. 2 to 1 v. 1. That does not normally give an advantage to either side.

The advantage lies in the pinning robot having the ability to break away at any time they choose. Pinning is not the real culprit.

That was a beautiful post.

This part was the best.

I think it's clear what the rules are regarding pinning, and as long as the team did not violate the rules, they are OK. I think you should take a tip from David.Cook, and learn from your experience being pinned.

For new teams, it is a bit harsh to have their robot stuck against the wall for most of the match. Certainly the pinning robot should get a penalty if they don't pull back the full 3 feet.

I personally think that 8 feet would be better. Right now, it seems pretty hard to escape a pin. That is something that could be suggested in the forums and in other feedback to FIRST after the season.

In the meantime, complain after the match if a robot only pulls back a foot. (Suggestion: Video the match so you can show the referees what happened.)

The referees would not redo the match, penalize the opposing team, or do anything. Quite honestly taping the matches to show the refs is a waste of everyone' s time. Complaining is also a waste of time.

As the rule stands: after 10 seconds, the robot has to back up 3 feet. It does not say "back up after 9 seconds."

As a result, the pinning team is doing NOTHING wrong.

It's only hard to escape a pin if your robot is not manuverable or strong enough to escape, and that is no one's fault but your own. Same goes for being in a position to be pinned in the first place.

Wow! I see what you are saying. Since they released the pin before 10 seconds was up, they didn't have to back up the full 3 feet. That hadn't occurred to me.

That does seem a bit "cheap" to me. In fact I think it is a loophole.

Thanks. I will bring that up at the forum.

somewhere when you designed your bot, you chose to make it fast or powerfull (geared up or geared down).

If someone can pin you, they must be more powerfull - but if you are faster, you should be able to get away from them the instant they back off.

sounds like your bot was both slower and weaker. I dont know what you used for drivetrain motors.

The only consolation I can offer is that while you were pinned you could do nothing, but neither could they.

But this is part of the design process - if someone builds a better machine than you, they are going to be able to dominate the field, and win. Whether that means getting boxes faster than you, or knocking your stacks down faster than you can knock their down, or pushing you off the top of the ramp

the better robot will still dominate the field!

Experience is a bitter teacher - first you are tested, then you learn the lesson :c)

another way to look at this - the 12V battery and 120A breaker they gave us this year means your bot can output about 1440Watts of power

thats about 2 horsepower being released by each bot on the field (if they design a bot that can use it all)

to put that into perspective, an 18 yr old male athlete can produce about 1/3 HP for a short duration of time. That means EACH robot is like 6 eighteen year old guys on the field (pushing things, moving containers, running around)

and there are 4 bots on the field - so thats like having 24 young men going wild for 2 minutes - thats how much power is available during a match.

so if someone could pin you repeatedly, and you could not push, shove, knock yourself free, or run away, you have no-one to blame but your own design team.

However the pin rule in some matches was grossly misused. There were cases on some west coast competitions where one team pinned another for approx. 30 seconds and backed up on the ramp for a win. There have been previous posts saying live with the rule but in my opinion that pinning rule was a mistake. In some team's interpretations, it allowed for a disabling of another robot putting an unfair advantage of 2 vs. 1. This rule also put less emphasis on trying to work on knocking down the boxes or opponents stacks which was the main goal of the entire FIRST event. Getting up the ramp was important for the 25 points however pinning another robot just to get up the ramp shows a lack of creativity on some team's part. This isn't Battle Bots here people. We were assigned a problem to solve using fair tactics. I can see blocking another robot to defend a stack on the bottom of the ramp but to actively search and pin makes that team a whole lot weaker.

umm pinning that long usually means they're protecting a stack by allowing their team mate to handle the other, weaker, robot.

yes but pinning that long is also illegal and should have had multiple flags thrown but none were. so i partially blame some of the judges for their lack of awareness on that crucial rule.

Why is everyone complaining... you all who got pinned made a less powerful robot than the other teams...that is noones fault but your own. If you are smart about driving, you will never get pinned. If you had made the more pwoerful robot, I guarentee you would think this rule was fair...

Cory

Agreed, moaning and complaining won't help you. If you cant push away or get out in the 3 feet given after the 10 seconds are up you are SOL and you better come up with something better in the future

What I am saying is that our team was never pinned but other teams were illegally pinned. When two robots of equal power based upon previous matches go against each other and one has a slight advantage of position and keeps the other pinned (both robots touching each other) for more than 15 seconds, that is definitely illegal move. it doesn't matter if your team has the best drivers, if they are pinned illegally, it is not fair. and by saying,"tough live with a rule that can be used unfairly" shows that probably your team did exactly what was described above.

IF someone was pinned for more than 15 seconds, then yes it was illegal. When other teams do things that you think are not right it sucks - but it will happen. It happens to everyone. The best thing you can do is to try not to act like that to other teams, and hope that setting a precedent of good behavior will cause these other teams to follow your lead.
Please watch what you say. Cheap shots like this will only create a negative image of you and possibly your team. Maintaining a good image is important in a competition where teams have to pick other teams to compete with them and vote on each other's entries for awards.

I must apologize for my harsh tone. My final comment was made out of anger towards those who I felt were not listening outside their preconceived notion. In my attempt to get my point across I have angered some people and I apologize for my error. It is not like me to become angry however when people refuse to listen to any other reason without thought, I became angry in that case. Hopefully no one takes permanent offense to my actions.