How Cheap!
 

During the St Louis regional my team 940 became lucky enough to get teamed up with Carmel Delphi for a match. And after about 1 min 15 sec into the match either team 1005 or team 447, I cant remember witch one. They went over to the Carmel Delphi and pinned there bot in the corner for 9 seconds then they would back off a foot then do it over and over again. I have the video tape of it and it clearly shows them pinning multipul times. There needs to be a rule that you can not pin a robot withing 25 seconds after the first pin. That seems fair doesnt it?

Re: How Cheap!
 

Or just have a robot powerful enough that it can push out of being pinned.:D ;)

There are rules regarding pinning. The robot doing the pinning must back off 3 feet after 10 seconds. Once they have done that they are free to pin you again for another 10 seconds. It stinks to be on the receiving end of that action, but it's within the rules as long as they backed off 3 feet.

Re: How Cheap!
 

You read the rules back in January like the rest of us.

It's completely legal and a formidable strategy. If you are unhappy with this, take steps to correct by designing a machine capable of withstanding such abuse or moving away from it.

I've been on the receving end of this and I can tell you it sucks big time. Its a loop hole in the rules that can't really be closed.

I don't like it one bit, I don't think its a fair move, and I don't think its going to change.

It sucks, but there is pretty much nothing to do about it but to stay away from the edge of the field and hope the pinning team sees a better use of its time.

-Andy A.

How is it a loophole? It's part of the game, if every robot was just given the ability to do what it can do, there would be no fun, it would be a race. Contact, and incidentally pinning are a huge part of the game, if you're not poseful enough to A) push back, or B) speed away, then that's your fault. It shouldn't be the opponents fault, if someone is a risk, they should be expunged, just be happy you're not being flipped.

Well let me say that it would be more graciously professional not to bash teams for playing withing the rules as set forth.

More important, I think, is that you have just learned first-hand about one of the more important realities of Engineering. You always have to make trade-offs when you design something.

Speed .vs. Power: Cyber-Blue's 234 was big, top-heavy, but well-designed so it didn't get tipped, and it was slow. But I never saw another bot pin it anywhere, and (unless I missed a match) it always got to the top of the ramp.

Function .vs. Durability: You saw a lot of bots that didn't do much more than fly around the course pushing and shoving, versus bots that had complex mechanisms for stacking, but were liable to tip over or the mechanism would get tangled up somewhere.

Getting pinned in the corner should show you that someone else made a different trade-off than you did. It isn't right or wrong - you both started with the same kit of parts and identical rules. So rather than bashing someone or blaming the FIRST organization, think about this when you design your next bot. You have just had the opportunity to learn something by experience. That is how life works.

True you do make trade offs with speed and torque, one goes up the other goes down. I know that and Im also know we all started with the same rules and parts. But I think that in a profectional type setting like FIRST comp's.

I mean where is the fun in bending the rules by pinning a team for that amount of time. I can understand pinning for 25 seconds then backing off 3 feet. But I feel you cross the line when you pin for nine seconds back off a foot and ram back into the bot and push for nine more seconds, and this happened for about 35 to 40 seconds. Like I said before "how cheap"!

There's no rule bending there.

ok, there not bending the rules there just playing in a ceap manor I feel.

I can understand what you are saying and everything but, I think its part of the game, Its something teams should consider when designing their robot.

I think if someone brought it to FIRST, they would take a good look at it... and maybe it will get changed. Anythings possible.

Last year we were pinned to the wall by a bot with a goal between them and us. The same 3 foot rule applied, but technically since the goal is wider than 3 ft., they did not have to and chose not to back away from us after 10 seconds.

Now that's a loop hole!!

Just be lucky you can actually attempt to escape from the pin this year?!?!?!

I can guarentee FIRST wont look at, or change this.

Cory

I understand why you fell that way, but your team is ultimately responsible for defending yourselves.

Yeah...you have the option to build a drivetrain probably as strong or stronger than many opposing teams. It's a good strategy and not really cheap. By doing that, they basically stopped two robots from doing anything. It's not like they rammed the bot once, disabled it, then went on doing other stuff. They devoted their time to defending their points. It is a good plan, and you have to work around it.

Constant pinning changes the game from 2 v. 2 to 1 v. 1. That does not normally give an advantage to either side.

The advantage lies in the pinning robot having the ability to break away at any time they choose. Pinning is not the real culprit.

That was a beautiful post.

This part was the best.

I think it's clear what the rules are regarding pinning, and as long as the team did not violate the rules, they are OK. I think you should take a tip from David.Cook, and learn from your experience being pinned.

For new teams, it is a bit harsh to have their robot stuck against the wall for most of the match. Certainly the pinning robot should get a penalty if they don't pull back the full 3 feet.

I personally think that 8 feet would be better. Right now, it seems pretty hard to escape a pin. That is something that could be suggested in the forums and in other feedback to FIRST after the season.

In the meantime, complain after the match if a robot only pulls back a foot. (Suggestion: Video the match so you can show the referees what happened.)

The referees would not redo the match, penalize the opposing team, or do anything. Quite honestly taping the matches to show the refs is a waste of everyone' s time. Complaining is also a waste of time.

As the rule stands: after 10 seconds, the robot has to back up 3 feet. It does not say "back up after 9 seconds."

As a result, the pinning team is doing NOTHING wrong.

It's only hard to escape a pin if your robot is not manuverable or strong enough to escape, and that is no one's fault but your own. Same goes for being in a position to be pinned in the first place.

Wow! I see what you are saying. Since they released the pin before 10 seconds was up, they didn't have to back up the full 3 feet. That hadn't occurred to me.

That does seem a bit "cheap" to me. In fact I think it is a loophole.

Thanks. I will bring that up at the forum.

somewhere when you designed your bot, you chose to make it fast or powerfull (geared up or geared down).

If someone can pin you, they must be more powerfull - but if you are faster, you should be able to get away from them the instant they back off.

sounds like your bot was both slower and weaker. I dont know what you used for drivetrain motors.

The only consolation I can offer is that while you were pinned you could do nothing, but neither could they.

But this is part of the design process - if someone builds a better machine than you, they are going to be able to dominate the field, and win. Whether that means getting boxes faster than you, or knocking your stacks down faster than you can knock their down, or pushing you off the top of the ramp

the better robot will still dominate the field!

Experience is a bitter teacher - first you are tested, then you learn the lesson :c)

another way to look at this - the 12V battery and 120A breaker they gave us this year means your bot can output about 1440Watts of power

thats about 2 horsepower being released by each bot on the field (if they design a bot that can use it all)

to put that into perspective, an 18 yr old male athlete can produce about 1/3 HP for a short duration of time. That means EACH robot is like 6 eighteen year old guys on the field (pushing things, moving containers, running around)

and there are 4 bots on the field - so thats like having 24 young men going wild for 2 minutes - thats how much power is available during a match.

so if someone could pin you repeatedly, and you could not push, shove, knock yourself free, or run away, you have no-one to blame but your own design team.

However the pin rule in some matches was grossly misused. There were cases on some west coast competitions where one team pinned another for approx. 30 seconds and backed up on the ramp for a win. There have been previous posts saying live with the rule but in my opinion that pinning rule was a mistake. In some team's interpretations, it allowed for a disabling of another robot putting an unfair advantage of 2 vs. 1. This rule also put less emphasis on trying to work on knocking down the boxes or opponents stacks which was the main goal of the entire FIRST event. Getting up the ramp was important for the 25 points however pinning another robot just to get up the ramp shows a lack of creativity on some team's part. This isn't Battle Bots here people. We were assigned a problem to solve using fair tactics. I can see blocking another robot to defend a stack on the bottom of the ramp but to actively search and pin makes that team a whole lot weaker.

umm pinning that long usually means they're protecting a stack by allowing their team mate to handle the other, weaker, robot.

yes but pinning that long is also illegal and should have had multiple flags thrown but none were. so i partially blame some of the judges for their lack of awareness on that crucial rule.

Why is everyone complaining... you all who got pinned made a less powerful robot than the other teams...that is noones fault but your own. If you are smart about driving, you will never get pinned. If you had made the more pwoerful robot, I guarentee you would think this rule was fair...

Cory

Agreed, moaning and complaining won't help you. If you cant push away or get out in the 3 feet given after the 10 seconds are up you are SOL and you better come up with something better in the future

What I am saying is that our team was never pinned but other teams were illegally pinned. When two robots of equal power based upon previous matches go against each other and one has a slight advantage of position and keeps the other pinned (both robots touching each other) for more than 15 seconds, that is definitely illegal move. it doesn't matter if your team has the best drivers, if they are pinned illegally, it is not fair. and by saying,"tough live with a rule that can be used unfairly" shows that probably your team did exactly what was described above.

IF someone was pinned for more than 15 seconds, then yes it was illegal. When other teams do things that you think are not right it sucks - but it will happen. It happens to everyone. The best thing you can do is to try not to act like that to other teams, and hope that setting a precedent of good behavior will cause these other teams to follow your lead.
Please watch what you say. Cheap shots like this will only create a negative image of you and possibly your team. Maintaining a good image is important in a competition where teams have to pick other teams to compete with them and vote on each other's entries for awards.

I must apologize for my harsh tone. My final comment was made out of anger towards those who I felt were not listening outside their preconceived notion. In my attempt to get my point across I have angered some people and I apologize for my error. It is not like me to become angry however when people refuse to listen to any other reason without thought, I became angry in that case. Hopefully no one takes permanent offense to my actions.

I take offense because you imply that I am " refusing to listen to any other reason without thought."

Are you sorry, or are you just pretending? Here's a hint: If you are going to apoligize, don't generalize and bash people in the process. Particularly with the nationals coming up next week.

Thanks.

Because I can't apologize in person and because I cannot express my emotions completely through a keyboard, I will end in saying that I apologize again for continuing to offend people. I have my opinion about the rule and you have yours and I shall respect that in the future without harsh criticism. If you accept my apology, I appreciate it.

My personal view on this:

There was no violation of any rules so if you complain, you're just whining. Whoopdeedo, someone got pinned; so let them go and build a better strong robot.

The greater majority of teams out there are boxes; if you can't stack or do something else unique, at least build a strong drive.

FIRST won't change this rule now and it's a good rule to stick with for future years. It works as a tradeoff for many aspects of the game which try to balance the effectiveness of different types of strategy.

Oh yeah; I'd love to see that video of the pinning. I'll sit here contently in front of my monitor and cheer on the stronger robot while appreciating its drive train and strength. And I'll laugh at the every weak robot that I see from now on, not because it's getting pinned, but because someone thought it was unfair that a stronger robot could use its strength for something. Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhh

Or build a 2-speed transmission, so you can be both fast AND powerful (but not both at the same time)

Monsieurcoffee just said it so well.

;)

Two speed gearboxes work....but on pinning....I saw at UCF, one team was in the corner and the other was defending its stack from the other team. Now that was tricky...to do both without knocking the stack over. Its not cheap! But think about pinning ties down one of the opposing alliance. Often the one with the best traction/power. That leaves, hopefully for your partner (of their bot runs) to deal with the remaining opponent. This may allow you to gain control of the ramp. Like the saying in War, the plan is only as good until the first shot. And reconassiance (scouting other teams in our case) is seldom wasted. I remember my Freshman year, I found out that one team had a brake at the last minute and ran to the stage to tell our Coach cause we were up gainst them next match. But pinning...try to avoid it. But sometimes you can make a break and actually use it to your advantage.

But here, being on SPAM, we have Speed, Power, and Maneuverability.

surprized nobody called me on this one

2HP times 4 robots times 2 minutes => energy

not power! (oops!)

:c)

fixed: - so thats like having 24 young men going wild for 2 minutes - thats how much ENERGY is available during a match.