Are ramp blocker bots working?
 

After watching some web casts over the past few weeks I have
yet to see a robot block the top. I see many teams with arms
that look to me were designed to do this. Why do you thing this
strategy is not working or am i wrong.If this is or was your teams strategy how has it worked for you?

jim schaddelee
team 107 Metal Flow holland Christain

In all of the matches that I have seen any robot that was specifically designed to block the top of the ramp didn't work out to well. Either another team was able to push them off or they had an equipment malfunction of some sort. Their were a select few who had a good drive train and were able to push people around.

That's 'cause we haven't competed yet... hehe. We have a ramp-blocker, but we'll have to see how it works in competition.

I've been to St.Louis, watched the Chesapeak webcast, and watched all the video's from other regionals I can find, and from what I've seen KOH bots simply are not working. I've probably watched 2 or 3 hundred games and have yet to see a KOH bot work properly.

However, I do expect to see some veterans like 111 and 71 to have some incredible KOH bots that work nearly every time.

Re: Are ramp blocker bots working?
 

After watching last weeks event and then today's Cheaspeake one. I think I only saw one KOH bot and he had problems too.

Lets see what we 3 brings :)

45 technokats blocker seemd to work in theory. but never quite worked perfectly in competiton, atleast not that i saw. powerful teams pushed their wings and the kats spun. like i told my team, suuction cups are not ment fot lateral force and are pretty easily pushed by a 130 pound bot. i am curious to see how truck town and that folded up green kickstand thing (soory i dont remeber the name, swampthing maybe?) do at their comps.

I think our design should have pretty different results from a standard 30 x 36 bot with wings, in that it's got wheels all the way down the length of it. So you can't get leverage on the ends of it, and its wedged all the way to. I can't wait to see how it does.
I've been waiting to see if anyone else tried this type of frame. But it really was a design for flipping, so you could say it's shape is an accident, heh.

I've heard a few funny stories about a certain KOH hill bot at a UTC regional whos name starts with a C end with and N and has a Larkso in the middle.(SNL) But if you think about it, nothing is really doing what its supposed to this year. Few stackers stack and few rammpdoms rampdom it seems that everyone is just pushing and shoving.

where do you go to watch the webcasts ??

What I am hearing KOH is not working?
Then my next question is why, and what would it take to make it work? This is what I think for what thats worth.

First I think you have to be the team to knock the stack over.I think that this is important because it mean your robot is fast.By fast I mean you can get to the top in less than 4 seconds .

Second I think the robot must have a way to block 85% of the top and lock down. Lock down to me means beatty beast unmovable. This should be done in 5 to 7 seconds.


Third I think you need a partner who can drive up the ramp and be patient.I think you could even leave your opponents stacks and still win.

I can,t wait to see if there is a robot out there that can do this.
Please let me know if this is your teams bot :yikes:

There is no reason to knock down the opponent's stack if you are a KOTH bot. You get 25 points from the top, and the most they can have with the 8 human player bins is 16. And assuming you get to the ramp first to be able to control it, the bins will hopefully go to your side. Then leaving your opponent's stacks well actually help you more than knocking them down, it gives you more QPs. They can't win if you control the ramp and they only have the 8 human player bins.

ramp blocker robots
 

If u seen all the ramp bockers now wait till Great Lakes. You haven't seen any thing yet. Watch out for the Huskie Brigade. I heared they were good but still in the secret. I don't even know what the robot looks like. But i heared it's a very good ramp blocker. And if you think the 65 in my name means i am from team 65 your mistaken. That is the only number left for the name i piced. Well unless i wanted it to be a real long name.

on juggalo65
 

ok so i lied. i am on team 65. but u wont get another peep out of me. so HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

you could have done your 65 joke in only one post . . . .

anyway, I was at Stl and I don't think I saw a single KOH bot work.

Many teams tried to use suction cups alone for traction (45) but I think the whole point of a suction cup is to stick it down, then pull up on it. If you have a really good cup it can probably take around 100 lbs of force before it comes off, so If you pull up with that much you no longer have 130 lbs of normal force, but 230. Making your wheels much much harder to slip, so if you lock those down or have an uber drive train you are immobile. using the suction cup as a traction device does not work, use it to increase your normal force. I wonder if some teams still have time to use that advice? probably not unless they've already implemented it. Which I bet some teams have.

I saw one KOH bot with giant wings with sticky stuff on the bottom, the idea being to unfold and put weight only on that, but the only time I saw them in action the never managed to get out of the alley. I was kinda sad.

229, one of the only "true" rampdoms I saw at the UTC Regional, worked really well during the matches in which they moved. I can only imagine what they will be like with fully functional gearboxes.

Well when we worked, we worked phenomenal. The two matches we were able to get on top and drop our wings, we let nothing, and I mean nothing through. On friday we were able to drop our wings, and raise the one wing up in order to allow our alliance partner (1124) to slip on top of the ramp for I think the 3rd highest score at the regional for qp's. That was while a bot was stuck on top of one of our wings. Granted, the other times we worked weren't nearly as impressive but I think we will have all our problems ironed out by nationals.

My team(1218) has a multipurpose bot that can hold the hill. We competed in pittsburgh yesterday and we did much better than expected. When given enough time to deploy our gigantic suction cup it is very very hard to move us off the time. We were even able to hold off Delphi E.L.I.T.E. in one of the qualifying matches. and it was great because their alliance did not get the 25 because delphi was touching them.

:)

Kinda?
 

We (the TechnoKats) have actually not even had a successful lockdown to the HDPE yet. Mainly because of various mechanical issues (St. Louis and Pittsburgh), so we find it just as useful in the qualifying rounds to use our wings to knock over the totes (just got automode working pretty well in Pittsburgh), and then use our size to take up space. If you are going to try to push our arms when they are down and not locked (or stuck becuase they dont work) you will spin us. I'm not expecting our full potential of ramp blocking to come out until Nationals, but I think we should do pretty well in Chicago. :D

Our robot managed the hill fairly well. With a little work we shall be a contender in the KOH catagory.

Did you guys have any issues with the rules? I know there was some discussion, and I'm interested to see if you had to change anything. I hope not; it looked like a very menacing bot...

I'm not sure about the ruling since we took off the lower section of the arm since we thought they were not needed. I'm sure we wouldn't have been able to use them though.

Just watch some of team 5's matches from the playoffs. (Or the last 2 of regular). That should say enough...

This was really the first time we tried "defensive wedge" configuration. If you notice, our rail-extension mechnasim actually broke and was just free-riding which is why it failed us at the end. But we were very excited to see that our wedge otherwise worked flawlessly.

http://www.wpi.edu/~cmwerner/FIRST/video/BAEsemi1.wmv

Why is KOH not so successfull? I think the strategy does not yield enough QP.

In the one scenario given (which assumes everything works perfectly) you get there first, get all the bins and completely lock down the hill. So the opponent has 16 pts and you have 25 + (4*33) = 157 for 189 QP. Sounds great, eh.

Not so fast...
first you are depriving your alliance of 125 QP. If you really have all the bins and your 4 stack, then you actually want the other bots to get on the hill - those are QP's! You get 2*25 for every bot you let on the ramp. you also get 25 QP for your partner.

Still too fast...
about 50-70% of the bots get under the bar, so if you are stuck blocking the top, then it is almost a foregone conclusion that your stack is gone, because the other bots will go ballistic, they will spend 1:45 clearing out your area (we have all seen this in action) leaving maybe 5 or 6 bins. Now your fantastic score is 31 to 16, leaving you a wopping 63 QP.
[I checked and at NASA/VCU the average QP was 78]

Whoa Nellie, slow it down some more...
OK, the world ain't perfect, so let say just four bins dropped behind you as you crashed the stacks. Now the opponent actually has 4*8=32 pts to your 31!! Uh oh! They end up getting 93 QP.

Evasive action, immediately...
Now you find yourself leaving the hill to attack stacks or clear bins from the opponents scoring zone. So much for KOH as a sole strategy.

Disclaimer:
Yes, KOH and the 25 pts associated with it are VERY important. So important that there are times when you have to consider whether it is better to let your opponent on or not, or even decide whether you should get on or not (if you are losing badly). However, we are seeing in practice that you need not block the ramp to win, but you better be able to get there and stay there when you need to.

Thanks for letting me ramble a bit.

We decided to build a thrower bot to beat KOH bots. We figured that if the KOH bot got to the top first that we would only have to get 3 more bins on our side to win if they left our stack alone. We could spend most of the time pushing their bins out of the way and then throw three bins across the bar and then go under the bar. Even if they knocked our stack down we were still able to stack four tall. But we never had the chance. You would only need to get 26 or more points to win and 7 times 4 is 28. But thats in a perfect world and as we all found out this game is nothing like we thought. We only threw 4 or 5 bins the hole 2 days, and that was more for fun than anything. The crowd loved it.

We expect low scores in our matches, so we're hoping we can get picked in the finals for the insurance win. But your scenarios point out that all the burden is on the opponent. Although I can think of quite a few scenarios where we could score pretty big. If our alliance is faster than us on the ramp (or can go under the bar), they can counter all the opponent work, or even stack. Also inherent to a KOH is it's width, which makes sweeping very efficient to return bins back into scoring. So say towards the end of the match we roll off the ramp and let the opponents on after insuring our alliance partner was secure on the ramp and let the other 2 fight him for it. While we go round all the bins back into scoring. Your scenarios don't take the alliance into consideration much. In fact in the finals I think 2 KOH's on the same team would be a really hard team to beat. But again the points are sure to be low. So us KOH's are gonna come beggin to get picked :) .... PLEASE PICK US!!!!!!!!!!!!! We got cool blinky pins :D

It seems that the big problem with the winged KOH bots is that they have troubles with maneuverability. They can only effectively put their wings down when near the top of the hill.

If they have their wings up, then they are more tipply-topply. This may make them susceptible to over-turning when going up the hill.

If they get to the top and spread in auton mode, they should do well. If not, then they are not well configured to play 1:45 with other bots pushing and shoving on them.

We shall see how the mega-ramp-doms do in later regionals and nationals as they get the bugs worked out of their auton code and mechanics. Unlike stackers, I wouldn't toss in the towel on ramp-doms just yet.

I would have to agree that I expect KOH bots to improve at Nationals.

I agree with you there. When you have those huge wings drop down, unless they extend from the robot itselfs, its raising your cg while they're raised up. Going up that 14 degree angle, in they don't start to drop their wings as they go up, one good hit will send them tumbling.

Yes I agree. Thats why I'm curious to see how ours does since there's no wings. It seems anything hanging off a 30 x 36 chasis gives too much leverage away. Although 229's wedges seem to minimize the profile, as opposed to some of the other KOH's. Ours is like a full length 229, so it should be interesting :)

I don't think you've seen enough bots to make this conclusion. Some teams are effective with their extensions outside of the 30x36 down/out or up/in, possibly more effective with them up/in depending on configuration.

Most KOH's have something that slides out to knock bins, or plops down and holds the HDPE. The effectiveness of the wings when out/in/down/up really depends on how they are deployed. i.e. Something like the Kat's bot could hold off a weak opponent with just their wings while something such as the RoboCards can't stay out past hitting the bins.

A few more weeks and we'll all know what the best strategy really is.

*** Why is KOH not so successfull? I think the strategy does not yield enough QP.***

I would have to disagree with you there. We were plagued with mechanical/electrical/programing problems at UTC, but when we got our bot working, it work phenomenal. Out auton mode wasn't working, so we didnt get to the top until driver mode. That said, the boxes were already scattered around on both sides of the field. Maneuvering wasn't easy, but it wasn't extremely difficult, either (i dont know, however, talk to our driver about that one :)) After we got to the top, we finished lower our wings and we stayed there! nothing moved us; the one bot that tried bottomed out on us. Hmm, thats 25 points for us, then 25*2 for the other robot......not counting all the boxes mind you! To finish the match, we raised our other wing and let our alliance partner onto the ramp beside us, another 25 points! we ended up getting 228 points, 3rd highest in utc i believe. it rocketed us from below 30 to above 20! Now try telling me again KOH doesnt get qps and doesnt win matches. Oh yah, if you think that was just a fluke, we did it again and got 191 points. In part because of these matches, we won the delphi driving tomorrow's technology award for our wings.

I will try to get videos from that match so you can all see a KOH in action!

I just have to say that huge suction cups are awsome!

Granted I do see the flaws behind the KOH bots. Honestly, I tried to fight the idea for our KOH bot. In fact, I was probably the only one who didn't like the idea of not being able to score points. However, as the robot developed, I warmed up to the idea of our KOH bot. I'm still not completely comfortable with the idea of not being able to score points, but it looks soo cool when you can sit on the ramp for approx 2 min and get hit from both sides. Its a ballsy strategy, but if it works, it wokrs.

However, I'm a big fan of the bots that can stack if they feel like it. I'm practically in love with the TechnoTicks' bot and robots from teams 571 and 173. Hell, I remember the ticks grabbing a four stack and dropping it out of play in one of their matches, and 571 doing a 6 stack and the end of the day. Those matches blew me away.

I think that in the debate over a KOH strategy not yielding enough points, you have to decide how you want to play the game. Our team this year decided to play for the finals. In many aspects, a win is a win, and if a team can offer a reliable (and winning) performance they are likely to be tough contenders in the finals. After all, two wins in the finals guarantees advancing regardless of the number of qualifying points.

Yeah, winning in both elim matches will guarantee advancement, but it doesn't make the game fun to watch. The idea behind this game somewhat was making it more spectator friendly. Which means action. Last year, MOEHawk grabbed all 3 goals in about 5 second, locked down, and was beaten on for 1min 55sec (when everything worked). When everything worked, the match was really boring. But it was always a crowd pleaser when the wings bent backward. I think it is the same way this year with the KotH bots. It makes for a really boring match when everything works (unless the other alliance manages to build a stack of 6 and have the bins on their side to negate the KotH points) - but whenever a KotH bot fails.. it will be a crowd pleaser. That's just the way the world spins.

Gravity rules
 

Just use gravity it's the best way to control the ramp. All 130 lbs. of our weight is under 14" which makes for a dense robot. All I had to do as a driver was meet people on the ramp and then let gravity take over. Heck, in one match I hit a robot with treads, and way more power and didn't even have to throttle our robot, our wieght alone held them there. Good driving on the ramp will be the best advantage, NOT some kind of brake.

(ANYONE CAN BE DE-THRONED FROM THE RAMP.)

I don't think everyone is working under the same definition of koth or rampdom. A KoTH or rampdoms only purpose is to own the ramp, a normal bot or exstacker that drives back and forth to defend the ramp is not koth. Take a look at bots from 45(not the mouse), 179, and most notable 229. Each of them have hard-core-rampdom bots. There bots a solely designed to own the ramp, nothing more nothing else. Its self-explanitory that they could also use those large wings to push a lot of boxes.

Further I don't see many KoTHs out there, so far I've seen about 7 teams who have them. Stackers that can push other bots off the ramp aren't KoTH because any bot can push up there.

Don't think being low will save you from tipping, there are a bunch of pictures of bots on there backs. Many tips occur when bots push on both side of a crate and eventually there fronts come off the ground and then they fall over backwards.

We play king of the hill just by pushing off everyone else. And it has worked well so far. We do have arms that open to a total of 8 feet wide to block but it is easier to spin us that way. We have suction cups that work great however the ramp gets so heavily gouged that they are now worthless so they are coming off. At the Arizona regional, Kingman Team 60 was the definite KOH. It looked like 330 did something similar too.

Your absoulutly right. To be even a semmi-ramp bot, the ability to handle being flipped is very important. And moving around on the ramp has everything to do with KOH points. Robots that don't move better NOT MOVE or bad things happen. EX. suction cups getting torn up, robots tipping, or even getting partially knocked off the top and not being able to move back cause your suction cups are holding you in place. Standing still just isn't a good idea to me.

I was watching some of the Fla webcast today to see how swampthing did (179). The bot is nicely designed and can definitely sweep the ramp, but I did see them get stalled and stuck in several matches. Overall, their QP scores were fairly low.

Of course, this insn't a comprehensive evaluation, but it is more data. Also, in the three matches I saw, they didn't have anyone really try to push them off the top, but then, they only got to the top in one of the three matches I saw.

FYI

The top being torn up has not been a problem for our suction cup:D

You are cool.