Loss of Gracious Professionalism Among First Teams
 

I noticed over the past couple years, the many teams have become lost in what exactly "Gracious Professionalism" is and have a perverted way at looking at FIRST.

This past weekend, I went up to the Annapolis regional as a guest of a team on which two of my close friends were. Towards the end of the weekend, I was so surprised on how rudely I was treated by the adult sponsors and chaperone of the team, thinking how could someone in FIRST act in such a way.

I went with the intention of being able to help out the team in some way, but not in the way of being used as I was. On Thursday it wasn't bad, except the fact that the team thought I went there as being one of the member's "girlfriend," which wasn't the case at all. On the team meeting Thursday night, I was not treated as I was on Friday.

It was joked about among my friends on the team, that I would be their Human player; something I knew was not going to happen. However, the adult had me "train" them b/c I am the one for my team and know what is going on. I did so...but when it came time for me to tell her who would best from what I saw, I was ignored and was told, "This isn't your team." The entire team just got worse and worse. In my past few years in FIRST, I have never seen so much yelling taking place among one team at a regional. The adult was blaming it on everything from the design being faulty, to the student leader not being happy enough. I walked up to the pit from talking to one of the volunteers, to that student getting chewed out for trying to get his fellow teammates to listen and get stuff done right.

The team meeting that night really opens my eyes to how ungrateful and rude this team really was. They were talking about things needed to improve their team, and to be honest I saw some things that would have needed to be improved, had it been my team. The fact that I was cut off and told that I don't matter, hurt me more than I can really say.

For most of the trip, the team I was with called my team (a team they have never met) arrogant and didn't believe how we don't have the arguing that went on with their team. I can vouch for the fact my team has never had arguments over the robot and people working on it.
Another thing I saw, is that a good portion of the members of the team, did not know what was going on with their robot. There were multiple times in which I had to step in b/c the people were giving them wrong information since they didn't even know what there robot did.

Despite how the majority of the team acted, I would like to thank the people on the team that were actually kind and knew how I got treated was not right, nor in the spirit of FIRST, also for the one member of the team that kept me from just blowing up at them.

Have that many FIRST teams lost focus that FIRST isn't about yelling at people trying to help them out, trying to give them another view than the narrow one they can only see? Have that many teams just become rude to those on the team that would know what is going on? I can't lie and tell you I'm not disappointed in how this team acted, but I was taught through my mentors and the other teams I have become close with is that mentors should be kind, especially to a guest that just wants to help. I never thought a team would even treat their own members as badly as they did, because I know after this weekend, a couple of people that are going to have nothing to do with the team next year, if it can be helped.

Between the experiences I received this weekend, and how teams are 'fixing' matches, I think its time that that people should be taught what exactly the spirit of FIRST is, not their own view they seem to think it has become.

Re: Loss of Gracious Professionalism Among First Teams
 

So they're only acting graciously if they do what you say about who should be human player? Don't think so. If you had strings attached to you doing them a favor, you may want to change your expectations next time.

Our team was motivated to create the gracious professionalism poster because of a terrible, fractious, argumentative year last year. We personalized gracious professionalism for our team by coming up with the definitions in the poster. Our team captain was so thrilled - no arguments this year. Our freshman female TIG welder said, "Our whole team is changed after this Phoenix competition". She meant in a wonderful, wonderful way.

It's all a process, not a destination. ALL teams or individuals are not at the same place at any given time. It's not about "people should be taught" and they need to have your view about what gracious professionalism is. It's about modeling the behavior yourself. In your situation you have a choice about how graciously you are going to behave in a difficult situation, or after a difficult situation.

Here is another example of the loss of gracious professionalism: One of the members on my team was an inspector at Cleveland. One of the robots he inspected used a hallowed out battery for the weigh-in so that it was under 130 lbs. I can't believe a team would do that. What kind of an example is this for the students?

Re: Re: Loss of Gracious Professionalism Among First Teams
 

As a friend of mel, and one a person that witnessed some of the events that occured at annapolis, She was very liberal with events , things that occured with that team were alot worse than that


Oh! and one more thing, If you were given a Task to do, and then when asked your opinion of it, just to have it ignored, i dont think you would be too happy about that either, i dont think this thread was about how she didnt anything to do about her opinion of being human player it was about how teams do not exhibit Gracious Proffesionalism


I agree with her 100% I think teams are loosing faith in each other, I read Cheifdelphi, and all that is talked about How this team can do this and that to take advantge of the games,

EVERYONE JUST NEEDS TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT IF's IF EVERYONE STARTED WORRING ABOUT BEING MORE GRACIOUS TO OTHER AND NOT ABOUT HOW TEAMS COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHER TEAMS THE COMPETITION WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE

Re: Re: Re: Loss of Gracious Professionalism Among First Teams
 

No, I haven't been happy when that happened. And I've learned over the years that it's often my own expectations that cause me grief, and that when others disappoint me I can continue to move on and realize that I did a good thing and didn't deserve that kind of treatment. And it won't keep me from choosing to do people a favor again - especially a friend like you who does appreciate her.

A personal problem such as being narrow minded or rude cannot be fixed by gracious professionalism. But frankly, how the team that adopted you should not have acted this way. Granted, some argue about their bots, but most have been under stressfull situations, not a regular occurance.

*chuckle* I disagree.

The narrow minded or rude person can't be fixed.

But the situation can be resolved, sometimes by going around the difficult person.

I remember reading years ago that mental health is realizing just how many options you have.

I can argue, I can agree to disagree, I can choose not to let them know that I'm going to take care of this without their involvement, I'm going to move on and pat myself on the back for being a generous person who did someone a favor...

I agree on some parts not all though. Me being on a rookie team found that there was aurguments once and a while but we are new and working out how our team is set-up. I being with FIRST for 6 years have heard "Gracious Professionalism" spoke of quite often.

I always here about teams not doing what they should and being to competitive. Some teams have strick guide lines and most of the team is in the captain's, teachers, and engineers.

What I think needs to happen with the teams is they need to get the students to do more building. I know of some teams that there students only do the minimum and the engineers do most of the work. This causes a pattern in how the team functions. First students start to find a topic to dissguss and every meeting the talk about this instead of the robot. Then the students stop watching the engineers and loss track of whats going on with the robot. Later in the building when the students are needed all hell brakes loose on them because there clueless.

I wish I had more facts on what happened with this one team this person was with, but the only thing you can do is advise them, like you are doing now, of what they are doing and then go back to your team and perfect your team organization some more.

I think "Gracious Professionalism" is the ability to work with others in a logical way that benifits the your team, other teams, your community, and FIRST. Any other activitys that are being talked about is not relevant. This team needs one leader that will organize the team which I find is ussually a student or teacher.

It has saddened me in recent years to see certain teams participate in FIRST, while not understanding the true meaning of it. However, this number is limited and many teams embrace GP with open arms. Thohe who do not may very well be doing that because the members do not practice gracious professionalism in everyday live. FIRST is only several months long. If, after the season is over, people cease to practice gracious professionalism, then there is no reason to expect them to pick it up again, and be gracious and professional once the season starts up again. Essentially gracious professionalism follows the "Golden rule" which most of us have been told my our parrnts at one or time or another. "Do to others what you want them to do to you." Gracious professionalism is about putting others before yourself, and the team ahead of the individual. However, this needs to be practiced in the world outside of FIRST for it to succeed in FIRST. Gracious professionalism is a 24/7/365 attitude you need to have. If you have that attitude 24/7/365, then you will carry it into the regionals and succeed! If you do not, then there wil be problems. Anyway, thats just my opinion.

i will not name the team, but we know who it is

i offered them my help when they were in PIECES on thursday

and they told me to go away...

On the other hand, I see opportunity rather than sadness.

I know in my business life I worked at Nordstrom years ago and learned what true customer service was about. I used to arrest shoplifters there. *chuckle* For a couple of months we even collected customer service letters from those we arrested.

Don't get me wrong, if I needed to be tough with those I was arresting, I could be. It wasn't my first choice of behavior.

My husband used to work for Oasis Residential in Vegas. 14,000 apts and they were well known for taking care of their residents. They had a Nordstrom view of customer service. My husband now works for his former bosses in rent.com - one of our team's corporate sponsors.

We moved from Vegas to CA , and I remain appalled by the "customer service" of our apartments management. Our apartments management owns many apartments. They haven't had the benefit of seeing the model of Customer Service practiced by Oasis Residential, and how that service helped make Oasis so successful.

I don't believe the majority of the world practices good customer service or gracious professionalism.

We are leaders - and I KNOW you are Sean. The air gets thin up here. And more people join us all the time when they see gracious professionalism modeled, experience it, and see the value of it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you’re fighting an uphill battle. People and the teams to which they belong are going to do what they want, whenever they want, however they want, and when they want. This is, of course, unless they violate an explicit rule of the game. I think Gracious Professionalism is a wonderful thing. But since we’re all human beings, and do not share the same mind and thought process we each have our own definitions of GP. It’s kind of like an ink blot test, or a Venn diagram that doesn’t exactly line up, or even like the FRC itself. We each have an idea of what GP means, and sometimes we share the same assumptions, but we don’t share an exact definition.

I’ve experienced similar rudeness at FIRST events. For example, my brother (last season) and I (when I was a junior in HS) have been yelled at after matches by an adult mentor from a team that used to come to Silicon Valley. This adult also made what seemed to be a yearly habit of fuming at his team’s drivers. So much so that one of them cried behind the glass at Nationals. These are just 2 (the team you’re talking about and the team I cited) teams, out of more than 100 that I have gotten to talk to fairly often. I can’t think that this is an epidemic of ungracious professionalism. In fact, compared to the real world I think this is a pretty darn good ratio of good to bad teams/people.

I’d also like to address your disapproval of “a good portion of the members of the team, [not knowing what was happening with their robot].” Why does this matter to you? We’ve had many discussions on CD about how much work students should be held accountable for on any given robot. As a person who believes that the kids on his team should have as much input/responsibility as they want, I can’t imagine begrudging a team for not having as much student input as well known student lead programs. Especially begrudging a team where the non-student who designed the robot is your friend. Maybe you hadn’t thought about that.

[I really don’t mean to offend you Mel.] I hate to say it, but Melissa you knew about the friction and inner turmoil of this team before you went to Annapolis. I hear about it all the time. If I were you I would have only tried to hang out with my friends on that team and have a good time, and not get involved in the team’s inner workings any way. They way they’ve been described; it wouldn’t seem far fetched for them to do the things you previously stated. I just don’t think it is right that you would knowingly put yourself into a volatile situation, and then be surprised and shocked when everything blows up in your face. The kid who likes to do cartwheels next to the cliff only has himself/herself to blame when some of the dirt gives way causing them to slip and fall off the edge.

<edit>
soezgg:
Chill. You're right that they probably should have been nicer, but maybe you misinterpreted their response. Some people don't have good control over the tone and mode of their voice. In any case, turn the other cheek.
</edit>

We'll probably be regarded as odd, but we're a rookie and didn't have one single argument. It was probably one of the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had.

One of the stragnest phenomenon I've seen though is when a team bickers amongest itself, argues continually over how to fix a problem, and never gets anything accomplished, but can be so nice, gentiel, and "perfect" looking to another team. I know a few times I would walk by a team's pit and the engineers/mentors would be yelling at a student, but later on you could come up and ask for a part or about a problem and that same person would be more than glad to help you out. I'm sure this was relevant to the situation they were in at that time, but still I don't think losing your temper is a very good way to promote professionalism within your team.

Changing the world starts with changing yourself. So, if you feel you personally don't express professionalism, try to change that before you criticize or try to point it out to others. By this, I don't mean that someone who has posted here doesn't express professtionalism, or that I am the epitome of professionalism (because anyone who knows me knows I'm not...); I am merely saying let's make sure that we project the same image we're trying to impose.

*jeremy

When new teams come into FIRST it's mostly because of the competition and the Robots. Which meansmany of them see a high school Battlebots (Flame me all you want but the general public is pretty ignorant about hwat FIRST stands for and thinks they're battlebots first and I'm sure many of them could give a $@#$@#$@#$@# about the Chairman's award or gracious professionalism and see just an opportunity to put a bunch of trophys on their mantle)and think the whole point of this is to win at all costs.
Before money so heavily saturated it into the monstosity it has become sports used to be about giving your all and being a good sport. Not anymore. Theres a new scandal every week. Some other athlete doing something to bring shame to their profession. Coaches who cheat and are rewarded with a job at aother struggling program or team. You got parents who lose their mind at their kids baseball, hockey and football games and turn into soccer hooligans.
One has to wonder if FIRST is heading down this road with their need to rapidly expand and if it is it need to stop and turn back right now!

There's a quote in the Talmud that when you save yourself it's as tho you've saved an entire world.

We "save" FIRST one world at a time, one team at a time, one forum message at a time, one forum at a time, one regional at a time...

You ever notice most of the horror stories are about "adults" on the teams? Every team seems to have one at one time or another and it's basically needs to weed those misguided individuals.

That is why when I was inspecting, a team had to either turn the robot on with the battery used for weigh in, or remove the battery and weigh it separately.

Doing such a thing is a very poor example. Hopefully we can arrainge consequences that hurt now but drive the lesson home so the students don't get hurt much worse later. I doubt there's much that can be done for the mentors though.:(

lol, not necessarily.

I know on our team there were people others thought were wonderful and turned out to be difficult. There were people others thought were way too difficult, and turned out to be wonderful. There were people who carried grudges and disappeared for months and are back again. We've generally worked things out and have had our best year ever.

wanna hear about gracious professionalism, well i guess its kinda like that....lol....

well my teams advisor has no faith in anyone on the team...she basically has no faith in the team...

last weekend at BAE regional...she told the team on thursday, "who cares if you don't cheer, the robot is bad anyway..."
-first off....WHO CARES HOW BAD THE ROBOT IS, CHEER...HAVE A GOOD TIME....whatever....its about having fun....
-second off....the robot wasn't that bad...

so after that all the kids thought we sucked and could of cared less about being there....

but it gets better....she picked the drivers due to the amount of work their parents put in helping the team....
-ummmmm....THE DRIVERS ARE AWFUL
-you don't pick drivers that way...
-she only picked like her favorite students too....who are also awful

these kids are going to houston and they all hate each other due to the advisor....my bro trys to tell her stuff (cause hes the pres) and she could care less about anything he says....so hes like had enough, half the team has quit....its horrible....

You have to wonder: did the students know about the hollow battery? If my team does something like that and I find out, I'd have to turn us in. Everyone would hate me for it, but I couldn't let it happen. In any case, that's just a terrible thing to do and it seems like it's completely contradictory to the spirit of F.I.R.S.T.

I want to hear how the students reacted when the inspector caught it.

Reminds me of a favorite quote of mine.
Time heals all wounds.
Time wounds all heels.

Even if a team gets away with doing something unethical, eventually it'll catch up to them.

That is awful that your mentors dont care about spirit. The team I was with didn't have it any at least on Friday. One of the matches I sat with their team and when they were called, I screamed with my spirit thing. 4 members of the team looked at me with this stare like "what are you doing, our robot sucks, there is no reason to scream" One kid moved b/c he didn't want to hear it.
The team killed MOE in one of the rounds, One kid joined in with me yelling...

I know how you feel though. Teams need spirit no matter what. It shouldn't just be whether or not your team is winning or not, but more so juts part of the comp. as a whole

Spirit is based on the administration of the team. If they see coaches and team heads doing it, then they will have some.

no i totally agree...because i was there along with 2 other alumni....and we had more spirit than the team combined....like at one point we were winning a match like 80 to 10...and they all just stood there...while we screamed our heads off...they just looked at us like we were idiots...

There has been a definite loss of Gracious Professionalism among the FIRST teams.

Ever since I began FIRST (granted, not long ago, Sept. of 2001), it's never been about the robot. The robot has no meaning in FIRST, save for the fact that it's the medium in which SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY, the important things, are conveyed. Sure, you could do it tons of other ways, but having a robotics competition makes it exciting, and therefore makes people who would not normally do something with science join. What does this mean? Simply, if your robot doesn't work, it doesn't matter, because the robot is really meaningless, in the long run.

What is the important thing, the reason we're all in FIRST then? To better our understanding of Science and Technology, and hopefully make the world a better place. Yes, it's a very lofty goal. Even more so than my team's robot design this year. Guess what though, that's the reason we're in FIRST, all trying to get the Chairman's Award every year. The Chairman's Award, not winning a regional or Championships, is what is important. If this idea is lost, then FIRST becomes nothing more than Battle Bots. A cool thing to do, but no real values are learned from it. I know I don't want that to happen, nor do many of you who are reading this. I love participating in FIRST, but I don't do it so I can win. I do it because I love programming, I love designing the control system, and hell, I love driving the robot. To be honest, this is what I'd love to do for a living. I would never have found that out if not for FIRST. Now, tell me what's more important. Having a working robot, or picking a lifetime career? I think that answer is very simple to get.

I honestly don't care about making a robot that works. Yes, I love it when it does work, and I cringe when it gets destroyed by bins or other robots in a match. I try to fix it if I can, but if it doesn't work, oh well, I'll bring it back out on the field and do what I can with what's working. If I can alter the score in my alliance's favor by just one point, I've succeeded. Last weekend at Annapolis, my team had major problems with our design, due to a lack of time during the six weeks. We were competing with a minimal system, basically a drive train, that weighed in at about 100 lbs. Nothing else worked. By Sat. afternoon, 5 minutes before we shipped our robot, we had everything working. It was not without a price though.

The team referred to in Melissa's post is my team, Team 810, The Mechanical Bulls, of Smithtown, NY. I am truly sorry for anything my team has done to you. I know that I personally appreciated you being there, as you did help with the Human Player position, as can be seen by several students that did an amazing job as Human Player, and would have not if not for your help. You also were able to help out here and there with the robot, definitely doing much more than several members of the team, who, sadly, knew next to nothing about the robot. Once again, I appreciate you for being there to try to help them learn more about their own robot, even if they choose to ignore you and still are in the dark as to how Minotaur functions.

soezgg, I'm sorry you were turned down by my team. I don't know what you look like, so I don't remember seeing you, but I do know that if you had asked and I was in the pit, I would have accepted your help. As it is, I don't know why you were turned down, as we definitely needed as much help as we could get. Once again, I'm sorry at my team's treatment toward you're offer of help.

To the rest of the members of this Bulletin Board:
If you have ever been disrespected by my team, or in any other way appalled by us, I apologize. If you are ever disrespected by my team in the future, please come to the pits and ask for me, and I will apologize in person. I don't think I can ever apologize enough for the actions of my team, but I will try as hard as I can do to so. I know that many things that were done weren't done by me, but as said before, FIRST is composed of TEAMS, not MEs.

Once again, I apologize for this, but I cannot control the actions of my team. I can try to, but it ends up just making the screaming worse. I'll be the first to say that yes, we were fighting, screaming, yelling, etc at each other. I know that gets nothing done. I've been able to trace tension to two people, who I don't feel at liberty to reveal. They know who they are, and if they choose to reveal themselves, all the power to them. If not, well, I believe the problem will continue. If that becomes the case, I would sadly say, I can't wait to graduate and go to another team, besides 810. I wish I didn't have to say that, especially on Chief Delphi of all places, but I guess that this is the place to tell, if anything else.

I know this turned into a rather long rant about my own team, and well, it's a sad day when something like this happens. If you have any more questions, I feel it would be better to contact me though a PM, email, or through AIM. If you wish to continue discussion here too, that's fine with me, I just don't want this turning into a flame fest on my team, ok? :)

In all fairness people, I think we are over reacting here. Some people get stressed out here and then we go off. I think GP is fine and safe.

And not cheering isn't a sign of lessening GP.

I've only been involved with FIRST for three years but I don't think there's been a loss of gracious professionalism. There's a lot of pressure and sometimes people don't handle it well, but given the circumstances, every team I met was kind, friendly and helpful. "Gracious Professionalism" is so common that we assume that every team will behave brilliantly and we only really notice when they don't. (Last year a couple of guys from another team just walked into our pit and started using our drill press because they assumed, correctly, that everyone would go out of their way to help another team) The only time at UTC-New England (2003) that I encountered
"un-FIRST-like" behavior was when we were paired with another high-seeded team against a weaker alliance. The mentor of that team decided to announce to the drive teams that this would be a "crapshoot" and that we had nothing to lose, privately, I told him that this could be a dangerous attitude, and he responded by telling me to "let the professionals handle this." He seemed like a nice guy under a lot of pressure so I didn't take it personally. Sometimes some of the mentors need to be reminded that its only a game, but in general I think "gracious professionalism" is alive and well.

now for a short post
 

Gabriel,

Very well put. I think you have summed things up very well.

JM

No team is perfect, nor will they ever be. Every team has its struggles, whether those are internal or brought out into the open.

Although I will agree that gracious professionalism seems to be heading on the downward spiral, I urge you to rethink your opinions. How many teams are dedicated to helping rookies, or creating forums for public awareness and communication, or lend a hand to a team in need?

For every team in FIRST that seems to have lost their grip on what this whole competition is about, there are one hundred more teams who come to FIRST not to win, but to learn and succeed.

Who says that we should rant about teams that are losing hold of the FIRST ideals? I've got a better idea- let's help them to remember what FIRST is all about - helping create our students' futures.

I agree 100% that there is a loss of gracious professionalism. It saddens me. I hope there is enough gracious professionalism to change this around. I mean not only at the competitions but even on threads in these forums people fight all the time. I know I have only been on a team for 2 years but I have been involved and seen gracious professionalism in FIRST since 1996.

Still there
 

GP is still in tact.

As we were elbow deep in our robot during every hour of Friday and Saturday in Pittsburgh, not 1 hour went by when there was a team who would come by and ask if they could help.

Almost all of the time, we would say "thanks, but no". Sometimes we would say "no, but wish us luck"... toward the end of the competition, I would just say "pray for us". heh. The help came when we would scramble for a part of a tool that we did not have... and so many people and teams would offer.

To all of the teams who offered this help, thank you. To all of the teams in Pittsburgh who were left high and dry during a Q match with us without a robot on the carpet, thank you for understanding. No one gave us crap about that and we appreciate it.

Sure there are a few well-publicized examples which are void of GP. These few are overshadowed by the vast majority of good people doing good things in FIRST. Don't dwell on the bad vibes, people... let's celebrate the good.

Let's give examples of good GP... another thread should be started.

Andy B.

Gracious Professionalism is embodied by purity of thought and deed.

It means treating people with respect and equality even if you they're your competitor. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be involved.

It means working toward achieving the goals of FIRST by providing students and mentors alike with every opportunity to learn from one another. It means getting students to see that there are more important things than winning a trophy or making a lot of money. It's about showing them how rewarding it can be to overcome challenges without fanfare and without recognition, but overcoming them nonetheless. It's about reinvigorating a generation of adults who may have forgotten what it means to see opportunity and promise in every problem.

It means appreciating the effort and commitment that people make toward the team and the program. It means realizing that we give of ourselves and it's a privilege to have our involvement.

It means standing by your word and acting with dignity and respect and conviction. It means challenging convention without getting media attention or awards. It means being part of a movement, not an individual. But, it means focusing on the individual and getting them to join the movement. It means changing the world.

Overall, I am concerned that many new teams in FIRST haven't yet grasped these concepts, but I don't doubt that many of them will grow wise in their years and begin to understand and appreciate the genius of these ideas.

810, however, has shown this weekend that it is a great disservice to gracious professionalism. We did what we could to help other teams, certainly. Where we had parts or tools that another team needed, we tried to share them.

We invited Melissa up from Florida to be our guest. I am appalled with how she was treated by my team's students and advisors. One day, our advisors solicited her help with the team's human player coaching, while the next, she was told that she's not a real member of our team, and her input was not valued. She tried to offer suggestions to get our robot running and was insulted by another student. She was promised an opportunity to practice her own human player strategies before her team competes next weekend, but had the offer rescinded by our team's advisor.

At a team meeting on Friday evening, other team mentors and students vocally insulted me and my efforts (outside of my presence) to bring innovation, acclaim and success to the team. I have given every effort toward supporting the team and making the robot work as designed, despite the immense prejudice I have experienced. I have spent the past 9 months tolerating off-color remarks about me, my life, and family from both the students and advisors because I was dedicating to helping the good, appreciative students. I was asked for my input regarding who our drivers and human players should be, and I was told that my input would be implemented. When it became convenient however, that immediately changed and my effort and my input became worthless. I, like Melissa, was used.

The few students on our team who truly put in time and energy on the team watched as their accomplishments were compromised and their meaning destroyed as the team's advisors handed the controls over to students who's involvement didn't approach half of what they'd done -- all because the other students' parents were present.

Gracious professionalism is not about taking advantage of those who offer you help, and it's not about saying one thing while doing something entirely different. It's not about letting personal prejudice in the way of inspiring your students. It's not about attending events only if and when you're certain you'll take home some trophies.

The only way things will change is if people know what's going on. Awareness leads to action. Team 810's behavior, with a few exceptions (Ian W. and SuperDanman, of note to CD posters since they each post here often) has been nothing short of disgraceful and disgusting this season. The way the administrators have treated their sponsors and benefactors is deplorable, and the example they've set for their students is damaging. The efforts of the students have been lacking, to say the least, and their propensity for passing the buck and shirking their responsibilities is disheartening. I stayed on to try to steer this team in the correct direction, but I have failed spectacularly. Their only concern is winning and appearing to be fulfilling the mission of FIRST. It's nothing but a clever deception, but now we've opened up the curtain for the whole world to see.

Please, everyone, whenever you deal with 810, know what you're dealing with.

Wow.

that is so not cool....i would not stand for that at all....

I'm sorry 810 was like that for you this year, I wish there was some help I could offer, but it sounds like I'd be shirked at, I wish you could do something to allow FIRST to actually see whats going on in the team

however just remember everyone has their disagreements, tentions get high and things get overbarring.. This year Team 710 tentions were getting very high, and I was getting pressure as the Teams chairman to quwell it.. the main threat was coming from the mentors who seemed to become overbearing ( we have more mentors this year than ever, which is a good thing, just its hard to get working on the same page )

We had been told that it was our bot this year and when they started to try to make everything their way.. all it took was the threat of the team leaving and they backed off some, it was a minor episode that created an extreme ackwardness for a few days, but we are the better for it, we all see where everyone else is coming from

IT seems to me a lot of teams need revamping, and a lot of times tentions do arise from overbearing mentors on kids

The way I theorize it is if we all wanted the tention that a football gives breathing down your back when you miss a block or a tackle, if that was all our nature, then most all of first would be playing football

FIRST is more laid back than that, and needs to be seen as such, don't get me wrong hard work needs to be done Trust me I know those 9am- 1am days will haunt FIRST forever, but just be down right jovial about it, and try to use GP to stay off eachothers backs so everyone can enjoy the learning process, I think thats why FIRST is growing so fast, because it is so exciting and an innovative way of learning and its just fun to be around the FIRST people, I think every year there is a slip in GP due to high tensions, but I think if GP was not there ne more, or was declining as rapidly as some believe then FIRST would not be growing so quickly

Just remember to stay light hearted and have a good time with what your doing try not to take things that are said under pressure wrong, just know they were said under pressure shirk the comment off and forgive the person for it

FIRST isn't about holding grudges its about taking those grudges and crushing a box with them :-) hehe

Dan

i can't believe this..... My team does have it's weaknesses and there are a few people who have brought down the teams spirit but i am sure that all teams go thorough times and lows like this.... What i can;t understand is why it has to be blown out of proportion, beat on, and broadcasted all over chiefdellphi..... Our mentor M. Krass had been the heart of our team for our rookie year and a good half of this year..... But there are things that he has failed to mention.....The fact that he left us high and dry for a week and a half in the middle of the build season with a very very unfinished design. So we ditched it and had to start from scratch to design and build a robot with no mentors, engineers or technical help whatsoever. All we had was a wasted 2 weeks of build season on a spectacular design which our mentor was unfolding and one year of experience in FIRST. I worked very hard on designing a robot by myself for a good week, and i think that it was coming along wonderfully and it was definitly a do-able project. At this point, our mentor comes bursting in out of nowhere with an almost fully-completed spectacular design (yes it had many kinks that us students helped figure out)...but almost flawless....we had no choice but to scrap our design, and go back to his because we were out of time.................The incredible amount of time that we put into the robot during the build, taking as much effort as possible to fabricate and assemble various components was tremendous, and very restraining. We only have one teacher planning all that happens (because of financial reasons) and she has no technical knowledge whatsoever. The only person who did commit time is an electrical engineer from our sponsor. M is no mentor to our team, never drove us in any direction whatsoever! If there were things happening on the team that were non-FIRST spirit or that needed to be simply fixed and moved on with, they were never ever brought to our attention. How dare he bash our team, with regards to direction, there was nobody who has had any experience guiding us along our FIRST path. Everything that our team is is from a rookie year, and us students (who # fairly few).
Meli W.- i am sorry if there were people who treated you unfairly (i might of been one of them, and if i was i am sorry) but you don;t seem to realize that we had no idea what was going on. If there were people mistreating you, u, M or anybody else really should of brought them to our attention. I was stunned after reading the posts by u and M, i had no idea that M had known that we were veering off course for some time now...because our supposable mentor had never even come out and say it----4get showing us a way to correct it. We didn't have a mentor, what we had was a wonderfully genius technical mind to design a spectacular misconception of our reasons for being in FIRST. But you have no right to bash our team, hey man, we havn't had a mentor for some time, at the point that this team is at we don;t need one either.
I know what GP is and i exercise it to the best of my ability, i don;t bash other teams, and i will not bash mine.....Though i know that we have our problems, thats simply what they are...problems.....and we are definitely able to reverse them. Keep in mind, the tension that M and Meli W witnessed was due to biting off more than we could chew during the build season. our "Mentor" gave a radical, complicated design to a second year team, and gave it late in the build, and we needed to finish it in a very short amount of time. On top of the blizzard, we didn;t finish it, and thorough Annapolis we had to be cheery and excited with a lot of pressure us. We had a huge amount of pressure because we had to compete AND finish a robot at the same time in three scattered, strewn days. On top of that, since our limping barely operable, unfinished, complicated robot has been doing terribly, it had a huge affect on our hyped up team. Somehow though, we pulled together in the end, on Saturday. We finally finished the robot, and now it is working like a charm for our next two regionals.
I am really sorry that Meli was caught up in this tension, i hate to say it but it was very bad timing for us to be trying to present ourselves to a guest.
I hope there are some people reading these posts and not feeding into these people ganging up and bashing our team on Chiefdelphi. Don;t forget, they really are ganging up, because not all believe this about my team, or atleast i don;t.:(

I don't know why a bad robot would inhibit cheering. Just think: the less your robot works, the more spectacular small feats are. I remember all the times we got excited because our robot moved. Woohooo! It's moving!

Also, DaBruteForceGuy, "engineer" is not spelled with a "j".

Thank you Dan.

This is exactly what I feel my team needs to do. I've been trying, since the beginning of this season, to get them to see that FIRST isn't about winning and being the best. It's about changing the world, and well, having the best time you can while you do it.

If I could have my team realize that one simple thing, we would be better off. The problem is not just in making the students realize that, but the mentors too. One mentor, he sees this. He'd love for everything to work, but if it doesn't, oh well, we tried, and had a damned good time doing it. The other mentors though, well, as far as I can tell, need to win to feel that we accomplished something. If the robot you build changes the point outcome for your alliance in just one match, you are successful. My team just doesn't see that simple "rule" no matter how hard I try. When I try to explain this, I'm silenced, when I try to talk to the mentor who silences me, I get no help, and wind up fustrated and worse off than I was before. I wish it wasn't so, but that's how it seems to be.

The problem with 810 is that we had an amazing rookie year. Now the team thinks a robot will pop out of nothing, and work. I'm trying to change that, and there are several students who see that, and have realized that they've been shooting for the wrong goal. The mentor however, is telling students that all must be fair, everyone must be happy, and to be happy we must win. This is the wrong message, and I don't like hearing it. The world isn't fair, don't hide that fact. The kids who work on the robot should be the ones that have fun with it, driving, human player, mentor, etc. Just because a kid's parent comes, well, no, there's no reason for that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, my team has disappointed me, and destroyed my view of FIRST. Luckily, I know plenty of other people in FIRST, in part due to this message board. Due to that, my view of FIRST has not been destroyed beyond repair. In a way, I've made it my task to try and help the team come around. Can I do it? Probably not by myself. In the spirit of FIRST though, I'll try as hard as I can. If no one cooperates with me though, I can't do much.

Steve,

I'm sorry to read that you believe I've failed you as a mentor and that my effort was unappreciated. I'll try harder in the future.

You'll be happy to know that I won't be returning to 810.

I hope that, in the future, you'll show the least bit of respect to those who dedicate their time to trying to give you a good experience.

It's the least that they deserve.

You are a student. Respect that you do not know even the slightest amount about what I have been through this season at the hands of your team and your advisor. Respect that I did the best damned job that I possibly could under those circumstances.

Don't take that away from me. You don't have the right. You should be ashamed of your behavior this weekend.

M, another friend of mine had a problem like that on his team. It was a simple problem: a hissy fit. M, if your good intentions are that good at heart, then the group will set aside the problem one and work with the right one.

Also to add, I have fully read and re-read the posts and can say this, there is something more that lies beneith this. Something personal that M has gone through. Guys, be nice, this is FIRST.

mikey mikey mikey......Last year you were great...incredable even, u displayed the characteristics of a leader beyond what us as a rookie team needed. But this year (from a students point of veiw) i seen it diminish and u fade away. I was wondering why, i had no idea it was the mentors and whoever on my team. All i knew was that the driving spirit and force of our team was going away, and our team is loosing it's foundation....believe it or not, our foundation was you, and by u going away we had slowly lost our bonds, now that you have totaly been kicked and booted away by idiot mentors who are narrow simpleminded, poeple who don;t like anybody who doesn;t resemble them.....well we have to try to restore ourselves, and if it means having a bad regional and some unsettlement.....well so be it.........I just don;t think this is something that should be posted all over on cd, i think that it is our internal matters and the fact that you are broadcasting it to all confuses me. Why can;t u let use heal after we loose the foundation which is u. we need to repair, and this rlyt isn;t helping-so epople out there, stop bashing our team and concentrate on your own.......we have some work to do.......But i guarantee that you will see a new, refreshed Mechanical Bulls at the upcoming regionals...i promnise it!!!!:yikes:

Then lets drop it (publically). I'd rather any further 810 talk should be via PM, rather than for all of us to see. This is obviously something you guys need to work out, probably not in public for everybody to see.

First off I would like to apoligize...I did not mean for this thread to take the aim it did. My intentions were for the team not to be name, but rather a discussion about loss of GP among other teams. It took a turn for the worse, something I did not want.
I know 810 will recieve a lot of unfriendly welcomes for this, and for that I apolgize now...

and I apoligize to CD for creating a thread that went off from where it should have...

If you care to discuss this with me my AIM address is Yearbook50 or PM me

First:

It is not, by any means OK for someone to say a volunteer for their team gave them nothing. You should be grateful that there are people out there who are willing to give their time to your team, and to stick with the team through the entire season. I know many people who would have just given up and left the team halfway through the build. M. Krass stuck with the team the entire way through. Staying up late, trying to think of ways to make the team better ... thinking of ways to make things work. Ian was right. 810 had a great rookie year.

Second:

Usually when a team has a great year, they expect that the following year will go just as smoothly. Nine times out of ten, this is not the case. It's disappointing, but it is something that a lot of teams deal with - mine included.

Third:

By bashing a volunteer on your team, you are practicing the reciprocal of Gracious Professionalism. Think about that word for a second. "Volunteer". A person who is willingly giving up their personal time. Time that could be spent doing something for themselves. Any adult who is willing to give their time to an organization dedicated to inspiring students about science and technology... that, is awesome. Any of the volunteers for FIRST - whether they be professionals, teachers, parents, college students, or just adults willing to help out - deserve nothing but the utmost respect from the students on their team. It doesn't matter if they show up or help out once or one-hundred times. They are there to help you and to better your FIRST experience.

Because of the actions of certain people on a team, the team has lost on of their key mentors. That sucks for both sides.

- Katie

[edit]Sorry, this was being written while people were still posting some things. If anyone would like to discuss this with me further, feel free to PM or IM me. Thanks. [/edit]

From my life, I know that one's expierience depends entirely on the people involved in that expierience. If one surrounds oneself with people who know how to have a good time, one has a good time. The past four summers, I've kept going back to a summer program (JHU's CTY, if anyone is familiar with it - you guys know what I mean) for one reason only: the people. It's the group that makes the atmosphere, and it's the group that defines your expierience.

The question is how does one have a good expierience when the group doesn't work?

What does a team do when two prominent members' personalities completely clash? How does one resolve the tension without having to resort to explusion? How does one 'fix' personalities in general? When certain people just can't get along, how can this be remedied? I've talked before about how if FIRST is expanded to "every high school in the nation," the bad are going to come in as well as the good. Call me idealistic, but isn't the point of FIRST to expand its message to both types; expulsion of the problematic isn't the solution.

I've talked about students, but how about mentors. What happens when one doesn't agree with the way mentors act? It's a lot easier to fix students' behavior than mentors' behavior. Mentors have the advantage of expierience, but students have the advantage of not yet having developed strong biases. What one mentor might think is for the benefit or success of the team, a student may think they are not given the right opportunity. How does one determine who is right in a particular situation?

I guess I am aiming at changing people's personalities. Convincing a person to act one way or another is easy; changing their personality - their thought-process - the way they think - that is the challenge. How does one go about changing a person? The problem I see is who's to say that you have the authority to make one person behave one way as opposed to another way.

Someone I deeply respect said about my team,
The potential on 810 is there, just there are obstacles; lack of opportunity to get involved, personality clashes, social tensions, mentor conflicts, etc. How does one address these issues?

So where am I going? I'm asking for advice on how does one change. Change tensions, change hatred, change a person, change a team, change a nation, change the world - it doesn't matter, it's all the same answer. It's just not easy to describe a clear method to acheive that reform.

Contention
 

I fully understand the effort, emotion and concern of all that have posted to this thread.

To Team 810 and all concerned, it sounds like you need to do some soul-searching and heal some wounds. You apparently have some very concerned and dedicated individuals (you are lucky) and perhaps a few "loose-cannons" and/or misunderstandings and it is not working out too well. Be kind, be considerate and remember "purity of thought and deed". Talk it out, even if you have to do it here. Maybe it is primarily a lack of communication.

For what it's worth, there were several times this season and last that I felt like I was underappreciated and treated inconsiderately, despite great effort and concern for the team. However, I realize that people have different styles and temperments and they don't always appreciate the consequences of their immediate behavior. At minimum, you do your best, learn from it and move on. Even better if you can hang in there and make a difference.

From what I've seen, this year...lots of people are only involved because they want to win. When it gets brought up on these forums, all it does is lead to fights, bickering, finger pointing, and insulting "anonymous teams"...it's times like these when we should all stop whining, and look back to the acronym: F.I.R.S.T. For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology, not "let's win!" or "it's your fault!" and the occasional "this is what you did wrong, we are better than you because..."...let us all get along! Enjoy your experience with FIRST while you still have it. Don't try to tell others what to do. Instead, focus your efforts on exemplifying the values of gracious professionalism in yourself!

Last year my daughter worked at the machine shop on the robot, co-drove at all the competitions, and this year became captain.

However amidst her excellent experience there were awful fights and tension.

One family from each rival school met and resolved to keep the team going and change our team for the better.

You are only in control of yourself. You may or not make a difference in the people around you. There aren't guarantees. We couldn't know in advance that what we were doing would work. It's a process, not a destination. Life's a risk, and there aren't easy final answers.

Just to let everyone know, 810 isn't ready to kill Meli W., or anyone else here :p. In fact, I'd like to thank Melissa for kicking the student leaders of 810 into gear, for the first time in 2 years. If anything, this thread was the best thing to happen to 810, ever.

So, once again, thank you Melissa, because I think you just finally made 810 work. It took two years, but I believe now we can finally go and have some fun :D.

Bleh. I hate internal strife and that is what went on at 564 toward the end of the build. It is such a long story. Basically the mentor wanting to get the robot done yelled at the only person who really did pneumatics to get the cylinder mounted and attached. Of course she wanted to mount it the way she wanted to but we only had two days left and he really wanted to get the thing done. Now we have that to do at the regional and she is annoyed that he yelled at her to hurry up and get that thing done.

thnk u ian w.
 

thank u ian. that is sooo tru. this tread has brought the team to gether. now i think that the team can actually have fun together in the pits.
this made me(and i hope the rest of my team)relize the fact that FIRST isnt about winng but about making freinds and learnig.
now, lets go and get bak to wat FIRST is all about...having fun
joe bennett

SuperDanman...Wow!
 

Ahh, Dan, you bring up a number of sticky points. When it comes to student effort and mentor behavior, I have mixed opinions. Being a mentor, I have sometimes see an almost total lack of concern on the part of the student members. I have also seen mentors behaving like B-heads. So it goes both ways. This is natural, unfortunately. I suppose I am am infected with this on occasion. Ask my sons.

All I have to say is, "If you are a mentor, back off and lead by example. Ask yourself, "Why would anyone want to be like me?" Then be honest. These young people are capable. If you are a student team member, ask yourself "What did I learn or do to help the team out, today?". Are you really doing what you are capable of? These are pretty simple questions. They sometimes have rather complicated answers, unfortunately.

BTW, expulsion doesn't work because the more reasonable people usually beg off before the crazies do. It's just the nature of the beast. Don't fret. Just hang in there and learn. We are here for you.

Re: SuperDanman...Wow!
 

Ain't that the truth.

A peer years ago taught me to continue to behave appropriately and the difficult person WILL escalate their behavior to continue to attempt to throw you off. If you can continue to behave appropriately, the difficult person will eventually either leave or change their behavior.

I hope that the FIRST community will see this and not hold grudges or revenge against this team. They don't deserve it... On the contrary, they need all the helping hands, smiles, and pats on the back that they can get. Please do not let past events be your basis to judge them - they deserve just as much gracious professionalism as any other team.

Team #810 - Although you cannot change the past, you sure can change the future. I am happy to hear that you are reformed and I am sure you will be great role models later on for FIRST. Hold your heads up high, rethink your ways, and show all of us what your team can do. Good luck.

Re: Re: SuperDanman...Wow!
 

I had to deal with a corporate executive at a company I worked at years ago. The guy was totally unreasonable (I mean REALLY). At one point, I decided he wasn't worth worrying about, if I wanted to keep my sanity. At every meeting and encounter, I pretended that he was a ghost. An image. I was polite, respected authority and all that. He just did not exist as far as I was concerned. It drove him nuts, and he realized that he no longer had any power over me. The moral of the story is to be your own person. Integrity will take you far.

(I also had a professor at Va Tech years ago who had this same type of experience with a professor when she was a grad student - she told the guy in no uncertain terms what he could do with his attitude and he respected her thereafter...hmmm)

Re: Re: Re: SuperDanman...Wow!
 

*chuckle* I had two similar experiences that I agonized over at the time, that taught me how to deal with difficult people and circumstances since then with more equanimity.

I created several very successful programs. A woman was so jealous she tried and tried to destroy them. I agonized and chose not to do anything about her. My programs continued to be successful, and she eventually went away.

2nd incident I was working analyzing records and indexing them for Yucca Mountain Project in Vegas. A new boss was best friends with a co-worker who always hated me for some unknown reason. When the new boss came on, they did an assessment of the dept and discovered I was always doing triple the quota, and that difficult woman was doing 1/4th of the quota. It made her hate me more. For three years she tried and tried to get me in trouble. It never worked. I remember the last time. I was marched into the office, the boss said, "She says you're talking about her!" Truly confused I looked around and saw the woman cowering in the corner. I asked, "What are you talking about?"

That boss eventually had a reluctant respect for me. Frankly I never had any for her. I did always treat her cordially however. She too was eventually gone.

omg guys named dan rule mayb?

Well instead of studying for my art history final I decided to read this entire thread (wow that was long) and send a few PMs here and there and maybe I'll feel resolved once I post so I can go back to work.

I definitely do not think there is a downward spiral of loss of gracious professionalism among first times. If you think about it, FIRST almost puts students in a corporation setting where we fundraise, think up ideas, design, build, compete, and so much more. Even adults have a really hard doing all of this without conflict. Now we have teenagers who already have a hard enough time coping with the drama of high school, friends, getting into college, hormones, etc etc. Yet, we still manage to cope and work with a team on a goal. I really don't think we give ourselves enough credit or appreciate how fortunate we are. It's definitely a mixed blessing having to grow up faster when we are faced with dilemmas but think about how good it is in the long run. Before we even enter into the workforce we'll know better communication, leadership, and teamwork skills because of FIRST if we keep the right attitude.

There lies the little fact in our society that we tend to harp on the negative. Look at the news, all we see are the horrible things going on instead of all of the accomplishments. Therefore, simply because we only hear about the times when people did not exude gracious professionalism does not mean that it is the dominating attitude around the country. My own personal mantra when I was dealing with hardships has always been focus on the positive but don't forget to learn from the negative and then move on.

I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason so I think that not only can the people involved in 810 can a learn a lot from this thread but we can all get a perspective check too.

This is getting wierder by the minute...
 

Yeah, people are strange.... Some don't know when to back off, some are reluctant to jump in. I just hope we can somewhat self-sustaining and keep the community intact. After all, we do have to keep all of us geeks together! Where else are we gonna go?

Have a good night and a better tomorrow.

Gracious professionalism is like a smile. You can have big smiles, little smiles and some smiles that are so bright, it brings joy to anyone who appreciates them. No matter how big a smile is though, there are some out there who know nothing but frowns. Although we can't force these people to smile, maybe one day they will look around at all the smiles that surround them... and smile too.

You can't worry too much about it, just do you part and smile as wide as you can :D

Wow...
 

I just want to say that when I left 810 (to go to RIT) I never thought they would get to this point. Sure, every team has their problems, we had some last year, but this seemed to get out of hand. I really hope that you guys are back on the right track now. I know that when I left last year there was a lot of team spirit and by the end of your rookie year, 810 was truly a <i>team</i>. I like to think that Michael and I had something to do with that. It saddens me to see how things have evolved since my departure but I sincerely hope that this will just be a "lesson in FIRST" and that you can all learn from this experience. I had faith in 810 when I left and I still have it now. I know that you guys can pull together, especially with the student leaders that you have. I saw great potential in all of you last year, please use it to improve yourselves. Ian and Dan, I knew you two could lead this team, I know you can lead this team out of whatever pickle you're in.

I wish you guys luck, as an old mentor and a friend.

Just a scenario to put this in perspective: If I'm invited to someone's house as a guest, and the host family gets into a disagreement in front of me, I do not take it upon myself to critique their lifestyle and the way they run their family, especially in a public forum.

I don't think it's very gracious or professional to argue over the "gracious professionalism" of another team.

And Mel - where have you been? Don't you remember last year when Dave and I got into that fight in the pits? We nearly maimed each other! People do crazy things when they are in the heat of competition.

Love that!

Katie, with all due respect, several members of our team were appalled at the way Melissa was treated. Her concerns and complaints are valid. She not only comments on what she observed, but what she experienced.

She was horribly mistreated and I cannot apologize enough to her for that.

Of course her concerns are entirely valid! She spoke with me soon after she returned home and I could tell that she wasn't happy with the way things happened -- but I just wanted to put things in perspective.

It's hard to see things from the outside when you're so emotionally involved. Thus the analogy :)

Is this true??? Because in all honesty, a different person on my team has said that every year in joking, I repeat IN JOKING, but we would never stoop to such a low as to actually do that. That is just wrong....

I mean we all have the weight issue to deal with and we have come up with some real wacky ideas to cut weight, such as, of course the above mentioned action, drilling holes in the air tank, putting helium in the tires, and all kinds of other dumb, but logical things of reducing weight. But the logical approach is not always the most legal thing to do.

Is and/or should flipping the power switch to prove that everything is in working condition a part of the inspection checklist?? Is that how they were caught?

I want to know what penalty they faced (if any) for doing such a disturbing thing...

Mr. Krass,
 

I'm not too sure if you know me by name or anything yet, but I was one of the 1 1/2 year-ers on 810 this year. I wasn't too involved in a lot of the building, but watching you work was definately a pleasure.

I'm going to go outright to say that from what I've heard in Annapolis, to what's going on right now on this message board, and how you're treated by other "team" members is simply unacceptable.

I, and many others who contributed (or attempted to keep up!) to the team, do not hold any hostility towards you, and truly, honestly, with full respect as a human being, and not something to be toyed around with, extend our thanks.

I definately respect your decision to leave the team, I would do the same in your spot. But thanks for all your donations, allocations and perspirations, and most of all, putting up with a lot of the irrevelant banter about you, which shouldn't even play a role in FIRST as is.

Although our San Jose competition is cancelled and I won't be able to see much action for the bot, I do appreciate your help along with that of all the others who have contributed, unlike some, who continue to be as a detrimental ivy on a still growing sapling.

Titles are irrevelant, actions are what make the person.

Thanks, Michael.

Last year, I toiled endlessly in the lab trying to make electrons lighter, but alas I had no success. Everyone said I was crazy b/c electrons weight almost nothing, but I was quick to point out that there are like 10^million of them in the bot. It was very annoying to charge the bot to -10,000V before every weigh-in.:yikes: I can still taste the peanut butter from that last shock at nats. Curse that Florida humidity.

On a serious note, the weigh-in is a very important part of gracious professionalism. Last year, teams called us on weight several times when we changed wings, but we had already weighed in under 130 before every match in question. If we had violated gracious professionalism so blatantly, we would have no choice but to give back the Regional Chairman's Award at Drexel.

Well, I think we all understand the importance of gracious proffessionalism.

I think it is a waste of time to focus on the teams that dont have it. It is a serious oversight not to note how many great teams are out there, how many awesome and spirited teams at the competitions.

Just about every team at all competitions are polite and helpful to everyone. A few bad apples dont ruin the harvest.

It is in the spirit of FIRST to celebrate the best of everything, not get hung up on the worst.

brute force guys bashing of M.krass
 

im on team 263 and dont know brute force guy or M.krass but i read the posts by the 2 of them and i dont think that if all the actions that M.krass described were true that he was unfair in his opinion of his team. so my opinion from the posts is that brute force guy was unfair and premeture in his opinion bout his mentors actions. so 810 if M.krass is anything like his bro (1 of my teamates) then u are lucky to have him as a mentor and that he ment nothing had the best intensions in his attempt to help ur team as a mentor :eek:

Re: brute force guys bashing of M.krass
 

Just as a reminder from Brandon on an earlier page....

Don't start jumping on him, it was a show of support, you can't very well support someone without gett ing a message to them. Seeing as how he doesn't communictae with my brother at all, this was his only method. Perhaps a PM would've worekd, but I feel this shows even more support. On a more personal note, Mike you know I've always got your back.

See-ya

I apologize for this post. Somehow, somebody got a hold of my password, or I left a computer on or someone in the school found a computer open with me logged in, but this post was not made by me, and does NOT reflect any of the values of team 74. I apologize for having this appear because it does show ungracious professionalism that was not to be associated with me or my team. Thank you for understanding.

We stand by the fact that we will not make agreements under any circumstances.


quote by TEAM_74

"let me say this....agreements wouldn't be unfair to me....but they'll be unfair to anyone that makes one with us. ANY team that approaches me or my team and asks for an agreement...will pay. We will screw your score up so bad....the match will likely turn out to be close to 0-0. Agreements suck!

Look at any porfessional sport...teams don't agree to let other teams win...they go for the kill. Sooooooo....here's an idea....if someone approaches you on an agreement....agree to it. Then show them what gracious professionalism is all about, and do the oposite of what they agreed to .....after all, what can they complain about, the fact that they're trying to cheat?"

Ok to respond to the first part. A few years ago there was an interesting situation in college basketball. A player from the UCONN womans team was about to break a points record and she twisted or broke her ankle (something like that) There was one game to go before she graduated. The next team they were up against made an agreement that basically let her hoble down the field and score her two baskets to beat this record, and in turn the other team was given the open ungaurded oppurtunity to score 4 points as well. Now I don't know how you all fell about that agreement, but I believe that was done in good faith and gracious professionalism if I have ever seen it.

Now for the second part, if you make an agreement, then go back upon it no matter how wrong it is, you either are making the agreement knowing that you are going to defy it (neither gracious or professional) or, are making the agreement on good faith, and then breaking it on even better faith which basically leads us to a pandoras box where two rights make a wrong??

That is the kicker.

Just deny it to begin with if you think it's wrong and let it go.. But be aware to see if it is being used against you in the future, and defend accordingly.

These agreements are a horrible thing. Yes it is "legal", but not inline with FIRST's goals and ambitions. What Enron did was "legal" also, but that is because no one ever imagined something like that would be done therefore there was no law against it. If this was 2001 I could understand, but it is not. This is the 2003 game and it is 2 vs 2 nothing other than that. I know I speak for my team when I say we will not participate in any kind of agreement proposed to us. I can only hope that FIRST addresses this issue before the Championship. It is an appalling practice that undermines the ideals of FIRST. I am really disturbed that some teams want to teach students how to be the next Enron or WorldCom. People like to say that is strategy or whatever, but really just a workaround of the rules to cheat the system.

example of ungracious professionalism at NYC
 

I'm reminded of an ungracious professionalism incident that happened this pass eekend at the NYC Regional.
A parent/mentor of a powerhouse and wonderful "team" decided to give the Head Inspector, who came directly from FIRST, a hard time about the inspector's weigh-in scale. In the pass this TEAM always gets multiple awards.
The parent instead that our scale is off by 5 lbs because their robot is overweight by 5 lbs and that can't be. To prove it to us that the scale is inaccurate, he and his friend got on the scale and show us that they "can't be that heav." He also claimed that he must be right because "he's an engineer (and we're not)." He didn't give up and asked to speak with the Regional Directors. He instead on us showing him prove that the sclae has been calibrated. What do we do to make this man happy?

Several of the inspectors run to another building where there is a weight room and picked up 70 lbs of dumbbells. We brough the weights back to the scale and show that at 70 lbs the reading was off 1 lbs which can be the weight themselves.
Well, this parent and team mentor was still not satisfied but the Head Inspector over ruled and falsed the teams robot.
Boy, was this man unhappy, so he started a complainting to everyone about what "dummies" the inspectors were. Word travel fast among the volunteers and every incident about the teams get funnel back to the FIRST judges (especially when the Thursday Inspectors are also the Friday Judges).
In conclusion, this team received very little votes for any FIRST awards that requires judging. This one miss guided parent/mentor who is clueless about FIRST and gracious professionalism really brought down a great team this year.
There is a lesson here for everyone.

:(

Team 810
 

This is for team 810. I cant believe you guys are going to let a hard worked season end like this. All this bashing is quite disturbing. I found out about the latest posts at work today. And decided to set the record true. First off, I dont care about winning. I just wanted to see the team be happy about a functional robot that they have made work and do its job at the competition. Yes, Maryland was a tough time for everyone because there were a lot of tweaks to do. And yes I did get upset about certain situations when knowone would help me get something done that needed to be done right away. And to those people I am sorry. Stress does weird things to peoples emotions. Understand it, deal with it cause thats what happens in the work world and real world. But it takes a bigger man to get over that obstacle and proceed towards the goal. And I was very happy to see students doing that because of the stressful circumstances.

Mike Krass- You put a ton of effort into the design of the robot. Some errors, but overall it looked sharp. People forget that our daily lives inhibit us from doing certain things. And by that I mean you were the one running around to the machine shops getting parts and materials, doing drawings. I on the other hand can't do as much as you did because I work 50 hours a week. The students should be grateful for what you have done. The only rebuttles I have is that you should have brought the students more into this projects. We brought some kids into the design phase when we could have brought more. And you never taught the kids how you achieved your gear ratios calculations, which in my mind is a vidal piece of information. Also i think you messed up your van door motor gear calculations. When you break teeth on a gear thats not a good thing. And thats what I was addressing in the bus when your friend Michelle was there. I just stated something was wrong and had to be looked at.

Our Teacher Advisor is a biology teacher. Shes not biotech. So yes she depended on her engineering staff for help. If it wasnt for her, you wouldnt have a team. Because no other teachers stepped up to the plate to take on this task and she did. She did help in raising funds for the team to be able to participate in these events and pay for the robot. A task I would not like to have. So knowbody forget her role in this project.

In conclusion, I thought we did an awesome job on the robot, especially since it was a difficult design to manufacture. I give props to all the people involved. I am a manufacturing engineer, not a mechanical, I only learned about the theories of pneumatics and gears, but never practiced it. I was to busy learning about tools, assemblies, fixture design and manufacturing processes. And do you know why I wanted to join FIRST and help the team. So i can learn all those things and more and have the students teaching it to me. And I believe thats what FIRST is all about. To be able to teach something to someone is one of the greatest learning tools of them all. Because it displays that you fundamentally know what your talking about.

So enough of this bashing crap, and let's celebrate our achievement of the award.

See you next year Team 810

Peter Liao
Manufacturing Engineer
Anorad Corporation

They are lucky to have someone like you.
 

Boy, are they lucky to have some like you.

Most mentors would not come back.

(everyone take a deep breath)

:)

You have to remeber, we are only human. Arguing is something that we have the tendancy to use. In some cases, when monitored and controlled, it can be productive. My team argues in the designing phase, obviously, but we get things done by a vote, the teams should be an absoluto democracy! But yelling at someone is not the way to go, you should help them as much as you can. Untill then, be on the lookout to help when you can and to stay calm, getting mad gets the better of you.

You know, I can vouch for this. My team, in the past, has been very bad at gracious professionalism.

We usually have a pretty good robot, but a bad team. We know this. At one regional last year everyone was fighting and crying and everything. It was pretty bad. Even the levels of student involvement were down.

This year, though, our team has recovered 100%. We have a pretty cool robot and an even better team. We are all happy and get along great!

You could say that we are a perfect recovery story. It's great! Of course, we have a long way to go to make amends to all of the people that knew us before we got better.

Sorry for everything! ^-^' (Might as well do it as I got your attention!)

-Amanda

Even though I'm only a sophomore I have seen so much fighting amonst other teams... Too much fighting and a lot less enjoying the comp. is what has been happening... I hope this can change soon...

That's absolutely great Amanda! I think we had a few issues every once in a while with gracious professionalism (we always joked around that the award we would never win was the Sportsmanship Award). With two very competitive teams, we had some scuffs last year, but that's all resolved now which I am so happy about. I think our team morale also went up this year so I'm glad to see other teams change for the positive too! Can't wait to compete with/against you guys in LA.

Well, I'll be lookin' for you! haha!

And it's funny that you say that! Our team has REALLY gone through a transformation, cause we actually won the Sportsmanship Award at Phoenix! A first EVER for our team! Congratulations to you guys too! Hopefully we'll see you there!

-Amanda