Re: Open Debate: The American Way
 

I dont believe that the point was to belittle the DEBATE going on in the threads. However, not all of these posts are debates. When it gets to the point where people opposed don't want to state their side for fear of being blacklisted in a community that they respect, where is the DEBATE in that? If people want to have a rational debate about this whole issue, not I or anybody else have a problem with it. However the bashing of teams that I have seen by veterans and rookies, mentors and students alike has saddened and at times even sickened me, not because they might not have a valid point, but because I very much feel we have degressed towards the grade school tactics of pointing and saying "you're wrong and I'm right" This debate didnt need to have the specific teams mocked and hurt to prove a point. The purpose of debate is to convince people to at least look at their opinions and be open to change. Open debate is often structured and measured by somebody or something. On here however that structure isnt so present. There really isnt anybody but your own peers to say "umm that might have been a little bit off topic". In debate, you refute your opponent's opinions by adding more valid points of your own, or you provide substance and backing for your own points in the manner of specific cases. Simply disagreeing, name calling, and adding no solid evidence to back up your assertions is no form of debate. Frankly some of what has been going on in these four threads isnt a "debate". Its argumentation for the sake of arguing, or statements in order to protect yourself from being blacklisted. I'd be the first to agree that a healthy debate never hurt anything but possibly some of the debaters egos. However, I dont see the whole of what has been occuring as a healthy debate.

Ashlee,

I agree fully that a lot of the things said (Name calling, personal attacks, threats of "black lists" and the like) have no place in this
or any other Debate.

I see the threads have been locked, temporarily I hope,
For censorship would be Far worse then any of the above.

Remember Ashlee...... Sean, Ken, yourself, and others like you
Are The Moderators in this debate.

Geo.

I apologize if my posts over the issue of fixing matches have come off in an unappropriate and offensive manner... I guess I just got lost in the heat of things.

They are locked temporarily of course. Just want to give people a few days to cool their head, think about it, read the pages of threads. Then we ask Brandon and others to unlock these threads, and figure out something that most teams can agree on, as a constructive thing to do at the competition about this.

Most people going to this weekend's competition is probably gone already, so maybe we can open it sometime this weekend, or until they are back from the comp and tell us what happened.

Actually, they are posters just like you. They do not exist to make sure you don't go overboard and start a flame war.

Remember that it is YOU and YOUR team that you represent here, and no one else on these boards is to blame for your actions.

It is no ones "job" to regulate the content of YOUR posts - Brandon and very few others are kind enough to moderate this board, but rarely do they step into arguements - they mainly just lock threads.

Personally, I'd prefer the threads to remain locked - there is little else to say, and the threads in question will quickly run wild again, probably.

Maybe if Brandon creates a new thread after this weekend, but not a revival of the old ones.

George I apologize but I really dont have time right now to be moderating that thread. I am in finals week at my college, and my life is stressful enough. Plus oftentimes people moderators arent HALF as effective as people thinking before they post, really looking at the question, and moderating their responses themselves. EVERYBODY on this board is intellegent enough to think about what they are writing before they are writing it, and it would be one of the most enjoyable things for me to see a thread that actually had a rational reasoned debate, without sean, ken, brandon, david, or any moderator or poster on this board having to slap hands and say Im not sure that this should be digressing. I already moderate a chat room and that gets bad enough sometimes, I dont need the additional duty or worry of watching over every controversial thread.

The job of us moderators is to make sure posters follow the rules, and don't get out of line insulting people or messing around. That is it. There is no need to do any more than that, especially since this is a free-for-all forum, a place for everyone to express their opinions to teach, learn, inspire, and connect.


The "moderators" George is talking about, are more like people participating in the chat who could lead the discussion into a more organized, productive chat. (At least I think that's what he mean) That can be ANYONE who can keep themselves cool, and ANYONE who listen and understand everything going on in the thread. Those people can act as leaders in the discussions get the group to put their energy into something more productive.

It's like an actual forum, you cannot have a good discussion if everyone yell out their opinion all at once without listening to what others have to say. I suggest to the few of you who feel strongly about this issue of "fixing" to read all the threads, and wait till they are opened, and start a better discussion. I think the few of you know who you are.

The rest of us... We only observed that there's something not quite right going on, and felt that taking a break would be benefical to everyone. No need to call us "moderators". We are just some casual posters who care deeply about what goes on in here.

I think what you are saying is that they are the ones expected to keep a level head and not go over board


What you fail to realize is that this is not a subject that anyone should go overboard over, no one should go overboard on anything for that matter

Everyone must realize that FIRST while fun, it is just that FUN, it is a GAME!!!, Not everyone is going to win, and now i fear for the winners that they are going to be closly looked at. Anyone who is in this competition to win should just turn back and leave, apperently you dont understand that winning isnt everything I can as an alumni,tell you that this is probobly the worst state i have seen FIRST in many years, i have said in an early post, everyone has lost faith in each other, I chanllenge everyone to keep a level head, and do not attack everyone for their beliefs. This is a problem that will not be solved this season, but as you all realize, this is somthing that has be avalible in the past to teams that feel the need to do this, so I wonder if its FIRST's faulty game desgin, or people that just cannot see the good in people and must Look at the Game Like a Lawyer(thank you dave for that) to find loop holes in the rules

THat is my $1.50 anyone wanna give me change for a 5?

I'll probably start a new one on Monday. Someone send me an e-mail or PM or something to remind me.

For now, theres a Poll in the general forum. Go contribute there if you need to do something regarding the 'fixing' topic ;)