FIRST becomes incompetent...
 

I was very excited going into alliance pickings Saturday. After Friday we were seeded 24th and after seeding rounds were over Saturday we worked our way down to 16th place. Our record was 6 wins and 3 losses; seeds 14 through 16 were tied with a 100 average quarter points and our highest match was a respectable 152. We were pumped and couldn’t wait for the alliance pickings; unfortunately for us our world was turned upside down by the end of the day.

At the Philadelphia regional it appeared as though the referees did not fully understand the rules of the game. Almost as if they did not read all the rules or FIRST failed to properly brief them before the game.

During match 25 we were tipped onto our back in our opponents’ zone. Our opponent team 816 was just feet away from us. They decided that they would finish the job and hit us to fully turn us onto our top. This was the first time we had ever flipped over. They had the opportunity to drive around us, but instead they preferred to not allow us to right ourselves and take us out of the match completely. This is a violation of GM 28, “Tip over another robot.” Team 816 never apologized for flipping us. On a more humorous note, 816 gave out flyers Saturday morning thanking us for our sportsmanship.

During match 50 our opponent team 87 competed in the whole match playing with the incorrect lens color on. This made the match very confusing for our operators and coach. Due to us winning the match, we did not take the matter up with FIRST. Their shenanigans continued in the finals when Team 87 played with the incorrect lens once again. Their opponents ended up winning the match and did not dispute the lens issue.

It was time for the alliance picking to start. In Manchester we were pulled from the 32nd to compete with the great alliance partners of teams 95 and 501. We were almost certain that we were going to the finals…

It was the first round and the 6th pick and team 204 picked 1218 the Cha Bots. Suddenly the video wall showed that we were the 8th seed. It was mathematically impossible for us to be the 8th seed; we went into the picking ranked 16th.

Unfortunately due to an error by FIRST either software or human we were erroneously placed on the video wall as a top seeded team.

During the course of picking two seeded teams picked two other seeded teams. Instead of immediately shifting a new 7th and 8th seed as it occurred, FIRST waited until the 6th seed selected to tell the crowd who the real 7th and 8th seed was.

Unfortunately our team remained on the video wall during the second round of alliance picking. Obviously, during the second round a seeded team can not pick another seeded team. Throughout the vast majority of this round it would have appeared to alliance captains that we were ineligible to be selected.

FIRST realized their error after the 6th seed of the second round selected. The announcer simply said, “Alliance captains please disregard the video wall, it’s not correct”. Unfortunately, our chance to play in the finals never came.

I was left dumbfounded- due to an error by FIRST our opportunity to compete in the finals was jeopardized. We knew that the finals couldn’t be changed now, we just wanted an apology. Several of my team mates and I talked to a very compassionate head pit administrator. He offered to talk with the two people from FIRST who were at the competition while they were on their lunch break.

Our team waited, the finals passed, and then the awards ceremony passed with no apology. FIRST never owned up to the error and we never received an apology, public or private.

The very same organization that taught me Gracious Professionalism also taught me that they don’t practice what they preach. All we wanted was an apology and we would have felt extremely better about the situation.

It was because of the finals issue and the fact that the FIRST field crew was unable to properly conduct the competition to a level that made it fair for all competitors that I call FIRST incompetent. With out serious intervention we will see more and more veteran teams drop into other competitions or stop mentoring high school students completely.

I can not speak for the team, but I can see that this competition seriously ate at team morale. We will have a lot of explaining to do to our sponsors as to just why we were not in the finals. When you explain to an executive that FIRST dropped the ball and most likely caused our issues he or she may not be thrilled at the idea of funding the team for an additional year. FIRST must consider this in their operation or face the unfortunate death of major corporate or university team sponsorship.

Re: FIRST becomes incompetent...
 

If your sponsor wont fund you because you didnt make the finals, thats pretty sad...You probably dont want someone as your sponsor if thats the criteria they have for you to receive their money. They should care about what the team is taking out of the experience, not what place you are getting. They are gettin g the same coverage whether you win, or lose, so why not sponsor you because you missed the finals?

Cory

No, we are not in jeopardy of losing our sponsorship. I was just using that as an example of what could happen to a team. Although we will still have a lot of explaining to do.

Re: FIRST becomes incompetent...
 

If you were already tipped then how can it be a violation of the rule?

Team 87 was warned both times. Minor penalties do not carry over from match to match, so nothing could be done. I did tell them that if it happened again they would be DQ'd.

I think several of you are missing the point...
The main topic of that post was what happened to us in the finals.


Tipping-
We were on our back, not our top. When you watch the video, their action looks very deliberate. If it was ACCIDENTAL they would have APOLOGIZED.


Team 87's light-
I don't care about warnings... A FIRST official should have realised the wrong light and made them change it. In the finals it had more to do with their laziness, they had one lens on top of the other and the correct lens popped off revealing the incorrect one.

Re: FIRST becomes incompetent...
 

Here's what happened, I think. . . and keep in mind that I wasn't there and this is just speculation based on what I know about how events are run.

Clearly, there was an error that caused your team to appear as the 8th seed.

FIRST can freeze any frame to the large display using the A/V equipment provided by the venue. They do this often, but particularly when the scoring computer is being used to input scores from the referees. It makes for a cleaner show by hiding all of the 'behind-the-scenes' stuff from the audience. When the score has been input, the screen is unfrozen and the new display shows the match score. You've seen this happen dozens of times.

What I suspect happened is that FIRST froze the last safe frame, displaying your team as the 8th seed alliance, while they worked on fixing the problem. They were probably aware of their 'error' all along, and they were doing everything they could to fix it.

Beyond that, I would give teams a little more credit, at least, and expect that they could figure out what was going on. I don't think it's fair to blame FIRST entirely, if at all, because you weren't picked as an alliance partner. It happens, and I think it's pretty clear that FIRST did everything they could to give the best show possible.

This frame wasn't frozen for a minute- it was frozen like that for almost 10. FIRST should have made an anouncement earlier. They also should have said, "Allaince captains for you information Team 125 is not the 8th seed as the video wall suggests and are able to be picked."

I don't think that they would have said anything at all if we weren't screaming "look at the screen." It wasn't until our coach ran up to the judge panel and screamed out to the announcer, "the screen is wrong," that the announcer said anything.

My biggest issue is that FIRST never aplogized for their error.

It appears there were many small problems during your day that made you upset. The tipping thing sounds ungracious from your POV but I won't judge without actually seeing it.

As for finals, I've watches dozens of selections and been part of a few as well. The problem with selection is most teams have a list of only a few teams. This list is almost entirely used up by the end of the first round of selection. Then its more of a "price is right" shouting match. Often the second round teams end up getting called because someone on the team reps shouted them the number or he just heard the crowd yelling a number. The second round is normally chaos especially for the lower alliances. Getting chosen is not necessarily a mark of not being good its because you were forgetten.

Teams have to stand out in competition through team spirit or a crazy/amazing bot. An average bot with average scores can easily be forgotten by selection time. Sorry about your experience and good luck in finals.

They are just volunteers, and people make mistakes....

Hate to burst your bubble man, but life is not perfect. I'm sorry to hear you all could lose your sponsership, but it is part of FIRST. In 97 we lost our sponsor and sure it upset us, but we figured a way to keep going and found a new sponsor. People at UCF had their robots rained on, and FIRST did not apologize for that. Did they throw up their hands and give up? no they figure a way to get through it. People are allowed to volunteer, and if you saw it as being so wrong why weren't you up there VOLUNTEERING, and trying to correct it?

Sorry to hear you had such a bad time and all, but part of this competition is to give life experience (both good and bad). I hope you realize this (as I had to) that sometimes everything just doesn't go your way. Some teams don't even get to go to nationals this year, which isn't fair but that is part of this program. Hopefully you will win big in Houston and everything will be great.

So, the error took 10 minutes to sort out, not 1.

Please guys... we're not losing our sponsorship.

I appreciate th kind words but I think you are missing the gracious professionalism. We asked FIRST for an apology, and they denied us that. I feel more hurt that we didn't get an apology then anything else.

I just don't understand why they couldn't say the simple words, "We're sorry about the video issue, and we apologize if that may have jeopardized your chances in the finals."

If they said that I would be fine; but they did not. They showed me that they don't have any gracious professionalism at all.

You see, when a team flips another team, even a not-their-fault accidental situation, they go to that other team and say, "Hey I'm sorry man, I didn't do it on purpose." That member of that team has gracious professionalism.

When FIRST commits a major error they never take responsibility for it. Some of you may already know the murky situation that happened at kick off. Apparently during the human demonstration of the game the stacks were counted incorrectly, or not how they said they were in the rules. When asked to admit that the kickoff showed the incorrect method of scoring FIRST had no responce.

Anyway, all we wanted was for FIRST to gracious and professionally say that they apologize and we would have been fine. No apology means that they don't really care if this 5 year veteran team competes at all. It's just a very sad situation.

Approximately, Yes.

The error started after the 6th pick of the first round and they admited the screen was incorrect after the 6th pick of round two.

Needless Slander
 

Mike,
I saw you guys at BAE, and I like your robot, but did you ever think that maybe you just didn't get chosen?

I mean... you and I both know that 125 should have had a place in the finals, but things don't always (often) happen the way they should. Weird things occur during picking. It seems that sometimes teams are just... bad at picking. Your seeded number often does not affect whether you got picked. I wasn't there, I can't possibly understand what happened... however, I dont think your not getting picked is something FIRST should appolagize for.

What should they have said? "Pick 125... no one has yet picked 125... someone please pick 125"

How can you completely blame this on FIRST?

I can't understand how... just because you appeared on the big screen, this would cause other teams to pass you by. FIRST made an error yes. It happens.

As for your complaints about the reffing...
It is difficult to call an intentional flip. In general, most flips are considered legal, unless a team goes out of their way to maliciously lift up on another robot.

Another note:
It was made very clear to me (at the BAE ref meeting) that once a robot is on it's back... or side... or whatever (incapacitated). That robot is fair game. Other robots can push you around, move you out of the way, whatever. It's all legal.
If you were already down... the additional hit was completely in the right. From what you described I can't see anything malicious that occurred. Team 816 appears completely in the right. The referee calls made during the event are FINAL.

Was it that difficult for your driver to remember which robot was on which alliance, just because of a light color? Again, this seems like a simple harmless mistake. Would it be better to hold up matches for 5 minutes while they go back to their pit and switch lights? Maybe their other cover was broken? There are a thousand reasons for what happened. Having the wrong color on isn't a terrible offense.

I find it disturbing that you would come to a public forum, and slander several other teams, and FIRST itself. None of the charges you have made seem particularly dire, or even noteworthy.

This stuff happens. FIRST does it's best to provide everyone with a positive, fair experience. It does not always succeed. There have been mistakes made in the past, there will be mistakes made in the future, but FIRST is trying it's best to fix things. Slandering the refferees for bad calls, and not knowing the rules (which is something you have not elaborated on... I've heard nothing but praise for the Philly refs) is not necessary. These refs are volunteers who are putting in their time to make this a good experience for YOU. If you disagreed with a call made, or the way a rule was being called, you should have approached the head-ref and let him know of your concerns. This is the way things are done. Not by complaining in a public forum, where the head-ref from the event is unable to defend him/herself.

If you have a problem with something at competition, you approach the other team/ref AT COMPETITON and talk things out. This is how it is, and has been done.

I sympathize with what happened to you, but not with the way it was presented here.

Bagh, lately there are too many threads like this one.

No, we won our first three matches on Saturday putting on a very good show. There is also an unconfirmed rumor that if an alliance captian didn't see us on the video wall he would have chosen us. Maybe people will come out of the wood work stating this, I don't know.
Because during the entire second round it would have appeared to an alliance captain that we were inelligible to be selected.

To be honest, it's not about the refs. I really don't care that 816 wasn't DQed for hitting us. Am I slandering 816 and 87? Maybe (it was a second time for 87 though, at least the third time would have been a DQ). However, my main issue is not with the refs or another team.

I'm going to re-iterate again- the main issue was with FIRST. Where was the apology?

We had a problem at the Canadian regional too. One match, our robot light turned on in auto/human control but nothing responded. We flipped switches and tried driving but nothing responded. The OI flashed that it had a valid signal and was not diabled, but nothing happened. After the match, we immediately tested out the robot. Nothing was wrong with it or programming. Next match, with nothing changed, the robot ran fine. Next match, the robot ran fine. Nothing was messed up. The only conclusion we had was that FIRST had a problem and failed to find it.

What would it sound like?

"We're sorry we provided you with this amazing experience, and organized this incredible competition, and this incredible event for you to participate in. We apologize for providing you an opportunity you cannot find anywhere else. We're sorry we only have a small staff, and are a not for profit organization. We're sorry we only have volunteers working for us, and not paid proffesionals. We're sorry mistakes were made, that we did our best to fix, and we'll try better next time."

Maybe your just looking for that last part... but I think you should take the other parts into consideration before you DEMAND an apology.

I'm not going to dignify this with a responce. Just read the whole thread and try to put yourself into our position.

Read the rest of MY post, and put yourself into FIRST's position.

Believe me... I sympathize with you and what happened. I understand your position. I believe I said so above... but I still don't agree with much of what you said. I'm just trying to make a point, which apparently isn't working.

I agree, FIRST is a great experience. However, I have beein doing this for 4 years and two teams and have never seen FIRST make an error such as this. The experience goes sour when an error FIRST caused may have jeopardized your chances in the final.

Then think of the irony, the same people that taught us gracious professionalism can't apologize for their own mistakes.

You just did.

You don't deserve an apology. You're a victim of circumstance and you'll just need to learn to deal with that.

What's particularly disheartening is to see that you're a college student -- someone who should be setting an example to their students by acting and reacting with professionalism and respect. Your job is to provide your students with the same amazing experience that you probably experienced while you were in high school. This isn't about you or your robot. It's about your students.

You're complaining about something that's so far removed from being even remotely important that you sound childish. Being picked by an alliance is an honor, not a privilege, and it's not even terribly important. Your emphasis on this -- and worse, your emphasis on receiving an apology for this is as good an example as any of all the perceived problems with gracious professionalism you listed previously.

You didn't get an apology at Philadelphia and you're not going to get one here, or from FIRST. Step outside the situation and re-examine what is really important. Was your students' experience any less valuable because of this error? Was it a waste of your time?

I hope not.

It seems to me like your "position" is that you are upset because you weren't picked and want somebody to blame. From my experience with FIRST (3 years), seeding means almost nothing when it comes to alliance picking and what is displayed on the big video screen means even less. During UCF, I didn't see a single Alliance Captain consult the screen for information as they all had team numbers written down on a piece of paper. Also at UCF, my team (6) was picked in the first pick of the second round despite the fact that we had been seeded 40th out of 41 for most of the competition.

Other things that go into picking: how well your robot complements theirs, how easy your team is to get along with, how reliable your 'bot is, etc. These are the types of things that teams use Scouts to find and not merely your ranking at the end of the day.

Also, you guys are already registered for the Championship, so why not just work towards being picked/winning there? If you're worried about sponsorship (which I know you say you aren't), wouldn't winning nats look a whole lot better than just a regional?

Finally, give FIRST a little slack. We've all heard about the issues their scoring software has had this year, especially in the elims, and I'm sure they're doing everything they can to fix it. As has been stated previously, events are under-staffed, and those that they do have working for them are volunteers that are willing to spend an entire weekend working their butts off so you can have a good time.

I was working as a volunteer during the allience picking, I was actually sitting behind the scoring table, and I noticed how frantically FIRST was trying to correct the mistake.

When I first saw my team up on the scoreboard as 8th seed... I did doubt that it could have been true (because I did know we were 16th). But if it was a reality, my real concern was "oh crap! does my team know who to pick?!?"

I only wish that when FIRST told us to "disregard what is on the board" that they told us specifically who to disregard, or take the board down completely my shutting it off or going to another screen. I have a feeling that teams were still using it as a tool because they knew it was "half true."

I agree that there is no proof that my team would have been picked otherwise. I believe that the big reason we seeded so high was because we were allied with decent teams during most of our matches. Also, out of the teams that WERE picked to play Saturday afternoon... I didn't think that any of them didn't diserve to be there, they all had good robots as well.

Neither my views nor Mike's represent the views of our entire team, and I apologize if any of you are misunderstanding our arguement. I know on a first-hand basis that FIRST is trying to be as fair as possible to everyone but that they are only human and mistakes do happen. An apology is always appreciated, but demanding an apology almost makes recieving one pointless. No doubt that the FIRST staff are also trying to live up to the "gracious professionalism" ideal, and although there is too much going on for them to express their apologies individually, they do still intend to make everything as fair as possible.

I only hope that this incident will be prevented in next weekend's regionals and at nationals so that other teams may have a fair chance. As well with the "light color" problem and the "purosely tipping other teams" rule. Actually... I do know that FIRST staff will try to correct these problems. Refs have a lot to think about during the matches and sometimes things slip, and after working a long day on the field, sometimes things just become unnoticed. It is unfortunate, but it is only human error. But I do believe that if something is mentioned to them... they will take action (aka: light color thing)

By the way, congragulations to the teams who did win Philadelphia... it was a very fun event.

ByE

erin

John -- some good statements -- I agree with you 100%.

FIRST does not owe anyone an apology for anything I have read in this thread.

1) The tipping issue was legal based on the fact that the referees did not call it. Thats the way it works -- it is their opinion at the moment it happens that counts -- not yours days later. Even if you produce a videotape "proving" your point that you were flipped, it doesn't matter -- the refs made their call from what they saw at the moment -- suck it up and move on.

2) The light issue warranted a minor match penalty, which the team was probably given. You may not like the rule, but it has been the rule since Jan 4th. Suggest a change for next year.

3) The video selection board is more for the audience than for the alliance captains. You make it sound like picking an alliance partner is like throwing a dart at the list of eligible teams and taking whatever you get. In reality, 2 1/2 days go into the alliance partner picking process. An hour before the end of qualification rounds, any top-16 team that doesn't have an ordered list of 24 potential alliance partners is putting themselves in jeopardy -- many teams do not prepare such a list, which means they do their picking based on their impressions of who is "good". It is you're responsibility to have your team in their heads as one of the desirable teams. Also, each alliance captain should keep track of the picks themselves as they happen -- this is not the first time there has been a problem with the selection screen, and it will not be the last.

If you are so hell bent on an apology being made, perhaps your team should apologize to itself for not doing a much better job at selling yourself to your competitors Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Or, perhaps, as a team mentor, you should apologize to your students for setting such a bad example of Gracious Professionalism yourself. It is your duty as a mentor to teach and show your students the true meanings of FIRST, including sportsmanship, humility and positive attitude. It is very disappointing to lose or not be selected when you feel you should be -- there is a word for that though: life -- and, as Dean explained to you, it is not fair.

Lastly, I think you have the direction of the apology backwards. I think that you as an individual owe FIRST an apology for publicly slandering them with your claim of incompetence. The claim is so ludicrous that it didn't even deserve a response here. The reason I responded is in an attempt to reverse the negative energy that is winding its way through this year's competition.

FIRST is changing as it grows. Many feel that it is losing the awesomeness of the experience. This seems to be somewhat true. However, the reason for that has nothing to do with the handful of people running the organization in Manchester. It has
everything to due with the attitudes of 20,000 participants across the country.

Well thats my 45 cents -- and Mike -- before you respond, if you respond, take a deep breath, think about why we all do this, take a step back, and go re-read your original post.

Aidan
:)

I agree with this, thank you for posting Aidan. I think it is important for all of us to "reverse the negative energy" as you so eloquently put it. I've been trying to do so more and more lately. Thanks again for helping.

Philadelphia Regional Referees
 

I appreciate all of your thoughts about the competition including the referees. OGRE has already responded to several posts about our calls throughout the day but I thought I'd take a quick moment to let you know what we did in Philadelphia to prepare for this past weekend. I have never posted before and registered today for this opportunity to share with you.

It is true that we are all volunteers. Some of us gave up time from work to be there, others took time away from their spring breaks or schoolwork and others had to arrange for their children to be cared for. Just like you, we have busy lives but believe that FIRST is an organization that is worth it. We did all have one thing in common. Each of us has been involved with FIRST in some capacity for more than one season. No one that came to Philadelphia to referee was new to the whole idea of FIRST. We had volunteered in various capacities before, been on teams, etc.

We met each other officially on Wednesday night and immediately began discussing the game. Most of us also spent the entire day on Thursday, watching the practice matches, going through the rule book, reading all of the updates and highlighting potential "hot buttons". We set up practice scenarios and discussed among ourselves how we interpreted the rules. We didn't end the discussion until we all agreed on a consistent way in which to rule. That included but wasn't limited to the type of paper we would use to measure whether a robot was on or off of the ramp! :) We felt that it was most important that we have concensus among ourselves to provide consistent rulings. There is no official training course that we could take so we did the very best that we could and know that many of you realize that.

OGRE kept a duplicate set of scoring sheets throughout the competition which came in very handy for that scoring error that was detected. It was simply a human error that was quickly and professionally corrected.

There are few if any sporting events in which everyone agrees with a referee's call. This past weekend's competition was a true testimony to the fact that you all understand the meaning of the words gracious professionalism. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot come and question a call or ask for clarification about a ruling. It's HOW you do it that's important. The referees would have been more than happy to explain how/why we made a call.

As FIRST continues to grow, it will experience growing pains and all of you share in its success or failure by the way in which you support the organization and offer it constructive feedback or destroy it by tearing it down. You can be part of the problem or be part of the solution.

My congratulations to all that participated in Philadelphia. I had a wonderful time watching the competition and cannot wait for next year's season.

Good luck to everyone that is participating in Houston!

I'm not ready to respond quite yet to the other posts but would like to respond to MOEWidow.

Perhaps my judgement that the officiating was bad and was off the collar. I was still angry about the allaince picking session and just threw the refs in for good measure. For that reason I would like to apologize to you and all the other refs. To be honest, I think you made the correct call during every match I watched. I think I can speak for everyone when I say we trully appreciate you volunteering for that extremely tough position.

I have volunteered to be a referee at the Championship this year, and while it will be my first time as a referee, I can say this. I will do my very best to make the correct decisions, but I can't guarantee that I won't make a mistake or make a call that some people might question. There are a number of situations, tipped robots being one of them, where it is not easy to say if something was intentional. There are no instant replays in FIRST, even for counting scores, and scores have been counted incorrectly a few times over the years. The people working as referees and most other positions do not get paid, but we will be spending two long days with few breaks, and will have a training session on Thursday. We will do the best we can. I have been on FIRST teams for eight years and have enjoyed it and think it worthwhile. Otherwise I wouldn't be spending my own money to go to Houston and wouldn't volunteer several hours of my time to help with the event when I could go on a cruise and take it easy for less money.

Have a good Championship, everyone, and rest assured the people running the event will be doing their best.

I was one of the scoring system volunteers at the Philadelphia Regional. Most of the time, including during the entire alliance selection process and the elimination rounds, the head scorekeeper (another volunteer, not me) did everything except the real-time scoring display. When he went on breaks, I took over operation of the scoring system. Allow me to describe the complexity of the job.

During Practice Rounds on Thursday, all we had to do was to depress the space bar when the announcer said "GO!" to start the match. Did we get that right 100% of the time? With a task so simple, you might think the answer would be yes, but everyone who was there the full day knows better.

Prior to the Elimination Rounds on Friday the true complexity of this year's official FIRST scoring system were revealed as the head scorekeeper went over the process with the rest of the scoring volunteers. On Friday afternoon, he needed a break and turned over operation of the scoring system to me. I was glad my son was by my side to call out each instruction to me. To say it is not a simple process would be the understatement of the year. Even so, it involved entering instructions into only one computer.

During the Alliance Selection process, I watched from the side as the head scorekeeper frantically tried to correct the errors on the display (125 was not the only team listed in error, and one of the other teams that was listed in error WAS subsequently picked). To correct the erroneous listings that were automatically introduced by the FIRST software, the head scorekeeper had to enter data on one computer and then enter instructions on another computer. He was totally focused on correcting the errors and getting the correct information displayed on the big screen. I really don't think that the full ramifications of what the incorrect display of a team number would or would not have on the alliance selection process was in the forefront of his mind. He just knew that displaying incorrect information was not what we wanted to do.

Members of my team who work closely with me know that I am a consummate perfectionist. I have worked with computers my entire 30 year career and know from first-hand experience that the old adage "computers don't make mistakes -- people do!" is absolutely true.

Did FIRST write the software for the scoring and alliance selection system? No. A FIRST volunteer did. A volunteer who could not start writing the software until after the game was announced. In writing this software, did this volunteer do everything they could to make sure you had the best possible experience as a participant or spectator at a FIRST Regional Event or The Championship Event? Yes. Is this software completely error free? No. Can this software ever be completely error free? No, not even if a paid professional were contracted to write it.

FIRST has very few paid professionals. One of them is Michael Robbins, hired just three weeks ago as their Director of Operations. He and I discussed the problems inherent in the complexity of this year's scoring system on Friday afternoon. He already was aware of these problems and we both agreed that there was not much that could be done about them at this point. But to his credit, he pledged to find a better way to run the scoring system for next year.

I believe that Mr Robbins is a man of his word, and here's why. When I subsequently told him of the simple but effective scoring system that I wrote for last year's Duel on the Delaware invitational tournament, he was very interested and asked me to send a copy to him. Even though I protested that it was only a simple PowerPoint presentation linked to a set of linked Excel spreadsheets, he still was very interested in seeing it. I believe that he will make sure that next year's scoring and alliance selection software and display system will be much simpler than this year's.

So, what is the point of all my rambling? Just this. There were mistakes made, both before and during the Philadelphia Regional. These mistakes were made by volunteers, of which I was one.

I am disappointed that some members of team 125 felt that the incorrect display of their team number during the alliance selection process cost them the chance to be picked by one of the alliances. The Philadelphia Regional was run by a lot of volunteers who did their best to make sure that everyone had the best experience possible. I think they should be thanked, not criticized.

Wow...
 

That is the worst thing i have heard in a long time and i believe that should of been called. Sorry about your sponsor though that is just sad.

I appreciate the volunteers responding to this thread. It really helps me to put things into perspective when the people behind the event respond.

I apologize for calling FIRST incompetent, as we all know is clearly not the case. However, I still believe that the error by FIRST jeopardized our chances in the finals. I also am disheartened that a FIRST official did not stop by our pit and inform us about the situation, the same way as the volunteers responded to this thread did.

The FIRST organization is growing by leaps and bounds, but I don’t think the infrastructure has kept up with the growth.

It is for this reason that I would like to volunteer and assist in writing and or debugging of the FIRST software in the 2004 competition. I’m sure all of you appreciated the new real time scoring. Obviously the FIRST software team is being stretched to its limits by all the new features.

PS: Great job with the new real time software feature. For those who didn’t see it, when a human player returns to his or her mat a check appears next to their team number on the video wall. White if they got back in time, yellow if they did not and your autonomous will not be starting.

Mike, I also am planning to volunteer to write the scoring and display software for 2004. Perhaps we could combine our efforts and collaborate on creating and debugging it?

I was present.. and do see a fault in the system- but as Bill Enslen said, the team that was mistakenly ranked 7th (LUnatecs) were picked in the second round..

I do remember how in the second round team 56 tried to pick 433, who were ranked 8th. This might prove that the teams did not know who was really # 7/8. However, Diablo (87) was ranked 7th, and as they won the imagery award at both Philly and Chesapeake thanks to their fire theme, and as their representative was dressed in a cape and flames, I'm pretty sure most of the captains knew something was wrong.

I don't really want to dwell on this subject, but for what it's worth I believe they were removed from the video wall first. I'm not sure at what point it was. That is neither here nore there, the important part is that the event was successful and that recruits are on their way to volunteer next year.

That sounds great.
- Mike

As a volunteer at the Canadian regional I would like to add a few things. You are asking for a representative of FIRST to say they are sorry for what happened. You say that you spoke to the pit announcer who said he would talk to someone from FIRST. I know first hand how much work goes on behind the scenes and how many task one person gets involved with. More than once I promised something and a couple of hours later remembered what I had done. I did follow up and say I was sorry but I also question myself on what else did I forget. I arrived every day by 6:45 and was one of the last to leave every night. When I arrived the FIRST people where already in full swing and always were working when I left. I have worked with these people at 2 Canadian Regions and1 in Pittsburg. Believe me when I say that they try their very best to make everything work out without any errors. We are all human however and we do make mistakes. I wonder if the pit announcer forgot or in their few minutes of break( if they were lucky enough to get one ) did not get a chance to see someone. I am sorry that you were not picked but sometimes those things happen. At the Canadian Regional the 10th seeded team was not chosen and I am sure they felt that they should have been. Remember that the choosers where students. I saw a 2nd round choice of a team that was ranked 4th and was already a chooser. All I can say now is good luck for the rest of this year and I hope that next year brings you closer to winning.

I have only read the first post in this thread and this is what I think:

Sure its pretty hard to deal with malfunctions and stuff during a COMPETITION in which the rules should be right every time.

However, winning is not the point. Even though it is much more fun to win than to lose. Our team got shafted many times. But Im not $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#ing.

Why dont you get past your self for a minute and think about gracious professionalism. Think about the mission of FIRST and how we are changing the world.

Why dont you get off your soap box and help out a struggling team get into finals. Only then will you understand what this program is all about.

Philadelphia Regional Comments
 

I posted this in the Philadelphia Regional thread and it is appropriate here also:
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Congrats to all Philly Teams

This was the fourth Philly Regional I have attended, and by far it was the most competetive. I have never attended any regional (7 total) where the final eight alliances were so strong and so evenly matched. The top 4 alliances were eliminated by the bottom 4, yet the quality of gameplay never diminished. There were no weaknesses in any of these alliances, and all teams in the playoffs deserve a loud CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

It's interesting to see how all the local teams in this regional are improving and developing together. These past few years as we've met at one or two regionals, and also at the many off-season competitions in this area, a very strong core of good teams have developed, and it showed these past three days.

Here's looking forward to Nationals. Good Luck to all the teams making the trip, and look for more excitement as we "Stack Attack" during the upcoming off-season.
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With all eight alliances being so strong, I'm not sure which team should have been replaced. That is one of the perils of attending such a strong regional; we only had three rookie teams, and two of them won their way into the playoffs. I'm sure other teams with good robots were disappointed at not being selected. Philadelphia did not have robots breaking down and sitting idly during the playoff matches, as I have observed in other regionals. I thoroughly enjoyed the gameplay of the playoffs, even after we were eliminated. Though there were glitches and calls we may have disagreed with, the Philadelphia Regional was a success, and it was indicative of the great competitions we will see here in the future.

So, we've all seen these posts and from what I read, most people are tired of them. I think they serve a purpose beyond the gratification of the poster. I really don't know the inner workings of FIRST, but I'd bet they dislike making mistakes as much as teams dislike it. I see these threads as bringing attention to real problems that FIRST has. Hey, I've whined before, and it felt good :D but seriously, if FIRST makes a mistake that just ruins an event for a team (or perhaps more than one) they might not know it, and it might be within their ability to prevent said mistake from happening in subsequent events. Perhaps these boards need a ATTN: FIRST section.

I'm getting a little sick of defending myself but there seems to be a large perception that I'm just a jerk.

At the Philly regional we gave whatever extra parts we had. A team would ask me and I would ask around our pit until we found what the person was asking for. Team 204, who did not pass inspection, came over and I showed them how you wire in the 40 amp breaker. I do feel slightly bad now that I didn't say, if you need any help over there just ask. They ended up going to the finals and wining everything, so I guess they didn't need too much help. In previous years I have helped re-program countless robots.

So before everyone goes throwing more stones, and telling me that I'm childish, just realise that I may in fact be a nicer guy than you think.

Mike, you should be thrilled that a robot you helped fix was able to be that successful... that obviously proves that you know how to wire robots correctly, and it shows good sportsmanship.

If you feel that you do not need to defend yourself, then don't. The topics of this thread have already been thoroughly discussed and further comment is unecessary.

Lets all look forward to the last two weekends of competition. Lets keep thanking the volunteers for their hard work, and thank FIRST for being able to organize such a fantastic program.

ByE

erin

graceous professionalism is only necessary WHEN something goes wrong, when someone makes a mistake, when someone screws up.

BUT HERES THE THING: its not up to the person who screwed up to make it all better by apologizing, fixing the problem, un-doing the mistake

the GRACE in GP comes from the people who got the short end of the stick, the shaft, the raw deal - you are graceous when YOU understand that the other person is doing the best they can - you know and EXPECT that mistakes will be made

you ACCEPT this as part of the whole FIRST experiece

and YOU continue to act in a professional, graceous manner - you keep functioning, you continue to be nice

knowing that without GP on YOUR part, FIRST could not possibly exist!

(and remember there is 0% value in teaching students how to stack containers or drive robots onto ramps.

Thats not what we are here for.)