why not use tank treads?
the difficulty with steering could be solved (at least) 3 ways:

[how old tanks solved it] the seperate treads on each side could be hooked up to seperatea clutches and brakes, and you could use these to power and de-power(is that a word?) the treads independantly

[how new tanks solved it] the engine could feed turn a generator that would power an electric motor for each tread

finally what if you where to use two smaller engines instead of a large one?

i think for simplicity and weight, the first is the most suitable idea (that i know of)

anyways, just figured i'd fling some ideas at ya'll...

<edit> what if instead of clutches you did something with CVT's...</edit>

Hi again,

I think everyone needs to thank Brandon M. & Delphi for
Letting Us use these forums.
Please don't forget them in your next posts.

Dan L.(247) has an interesting point about declines/inclines
(something I missed) add to that holes, (how deep?)
washes, (How deep/steep/wide and whats the other side look
like?) Water (how deep/wide/whats the bottom look like?)
Rocks (how big/high/whats behind it?)
these are the type of Questions We (and the Truck) have to ask.
AND ANSWER!
The sooner the better for the Team

With in Seconds/ at the most, Minutes for the Truck!
( Plus "where am I??", "where do I have to go?", And how do I get there?")

Paul Mentioned ultrasonic sensors, Banner Engineering makes
line of measurement sensors with a 10' range could we gang a bank of these to "draw" a picture of the area?
Something On this line would go a ways in answering some of the questions.

Dose anyone have any experience in this field?
How about a Mentor or (gasp!) parent?
Come-on someone knows about SONAR ARRAYS
Lets Pick some BRAINS!

One of our biggest ADVANTAGES over other teams is the network
that we can create thou our participation in FIRST!

if you notice I keep referring to the vehicle as a "Truck"
all thou other forms may be advantageous(custom chassis,tank treads etc.) the most practical thing is a Truck,
Being out in the dessert, there is a lot of time spent building
sand rails, rock hoppers, trucks, bikes, and other toys.
I will post some pictures of TWO recently completed projects soon.
I am under no delusions about how much work a project like this is.
or how much money it takes.
(a Good rail is about $35,000 from the ground up.)

And for this contest we will in all likelihood build 2 trucks
One just for testing (it will get Hammered!)
and one for the race.
I am hopping to get the trucks donated, But we have to show the Sponsors Something!
(See earlier posts)

Please visit this web site to get an idea of the machine shop backing we have available, Please go to http://www.laron.com
(sorry, I don't know how to make a link)

Please keep adding your IDEAS
Please keep posting
Please ask people that might like to help this program
please recruit

Geo.

P.S.
As for meetings, how about FIRST events?
If we spend the time (WISELY) from now to the first race getting organized,
we could meet at nationals, I will try to bring a vi-do of the run,
And this gives us about a year to build & test for 2005.

THINK, and have FUN!

Truck, eh?
For those of you who read Wired there was an article in the last issue (Stopping Loose Nukes) there was an article about Robert Full and his research into legged robots. He is a professor at Berkley (good location for helping build this) and might be willing to join us on this team (this is also a shout-out to any members of team 225 to recruit his help). I believe that a walking robot would be much more agile than a truck, but it may not be as fast or as able to take a beating and keep going. We need to get an idea as to whether or not something that agile would be able to make up for the lost time by being able to pass through rough areas with no loss of maximun speed. I've never had a chance to hold a good scientific investigation on the geography of the rougher areas in California and Nevada.
Any insights into this dilemma?

Yeah, use a truck.:D No, seriously - a Jeep.

Truck
 

I still think Truck over Jeep
1) Longer wheel base / more stability
2) More cargo area
3) I might have sponsor (if you have someone willing to donate,
I have no objections to Jeep other than short wheel base, I
have had a Toyota LC (FJ40) for 23 years and if your not careful
your rubber side up with in no time.
You want a longer wheel base, much more forgiving!

Geo.

How about something like this:

http://atvracing1.com/tazcar.htm

Its just an example, there are lots of companies that make sand rail and dune buggy kits. Its less expensive than a late model truck and less complicated to work on.

b That is true but a truck is more prone to becoming high centered. Who said we need a late model truck? All it's got to have is 4x4, automatic, and fuel injection and we'll be set. The sandrails are much less complicated to work on but all sandrails are only two wheel drive. And they can be fairly expensive. It depends on how it's equipped.

I agree, an old beater truck that has a mechanically sound drive train is probably the best value. I'd add power steering and brakes to the list.

As for the body we really don't care. Since it's only function would be to protect the "driver" ,we may be best off to strip it to the frame and fabricate a custom enclosure for the electronics.

BTW did anybody but me notice the reqjuirement for a parking brake operated manually from OUTSIDE the vehicle? Not that I think it will be difficult, just one more thing that needs doing.

Has anybody started a requirements list? We need one soon!

I noticed that also. I guess its just another item to think about. In looking at the whole project that will be one of the easier things to design, once you get an idea of how.

Hi everyone,

Chris,
I did not see the "out side parking brake" but I did see they wanted "E" Stops mounted at 4 or more points, (to be designated
later...) although I do not see any problems in doing any of this.
Time to review the rules again.

I think we maybe should leave the cab on, if nothing more than to cut down on work, there should be a drivers compartment with a manual override. Doing this makes sense when you think about moving the truck around, (I don't want to PUSH it UP Hill to the starting line, or to get it unstuck ) it just makes life easier.
As for the roof or the bed,
Form Fallows Function,
but it should look Quality .....
Nobody wants to Sponsor JUNK!

As to high centering the Dutch had a military truck (called a DAFT
if I remember right) that had 2 spair tires mounted in the center of the wheel base, on free wheeling axles.
When you high center, you just roll off!
If high centering becomes a problems maybe we could do something like this?

Has anyone been following the DARPA forum ?

We missed getting in on the magazine story,
I tried, but we haven't got enough "weight" (names,sponsors,etc.--
we don't even have a team yet!)

Chris made the right call in not publishing peoples names that
have not given their approval or permission.

Please take the time to e mail me with this permission and a short resume,
When I get enough "weight" I will go after getting us registered
And pursuing Sponsors

Geo.

Why would anyone post a good idea in the DARPA forum if it is what they are using to potentially win? This challenge is not about sharing like FIRST is.

Another thought came to mind about the vehicle platform. A Mercedes Unimog could work very well and I believe they came in diesel too. However, I don't know what types of transmissions they had and the vehicles are usually expensive and hard to find. A Jeep or truck would probably be just as good.

For front suspension, would you go with solid axle or IFS. Solid axle is more rugged and has more articulation but IFS responds and performs quicker at speed. IFS is much more complicated and more prone to breakage though. We'd have to get some advice/help form a place such as ORU if we went with an IFS setup.

hey everyone,
THE Las Vegas FIRST team 987! well since we are frankly the most active FIRST team in Las Vegas (and possibly the state of Nevada), our team was interviewed on the local ABC station (Channel 13) about the grand challenge. it seems very interesting, lots of money, but we dont have the rescources or the man power to do it on our own, im sure we would be interested though! we hope to soon digitize our interviews (we were also on the same station a year ago for placing 5th in Einstein at nationals). check out our website in the meantime. Anyone at all interested in a possible Las Vegas FIRST Regional or off season event? contact me, our team as early as next season could host an off season event.

AIM - joeassman22

email - see below

later
dave

Hey, remember us from Phoeinix? How you doin'? Anyway, I think you left out your sig by mistake for the e-mail and website.

I agree, especially with the manual override. It would be a lot easier to just drive the thing to a start point than to have to haul it there. But at the same time we should not hold onto a cab or any other bodywork too tightly. If there is a good reason to do things some other way then we should discard the cab. We won't know about good reasons one way or the other for a while yet. We need to get the system a little better defined first.

That's what I was thinking of. but if we do the navigation package right it shouldn't be an issue. As always we'll solve it in software ;)

I agree Chris, I am not "Locked" in to keeping the cab at all
form fallows function and all that...
If we get a "big 4" sponsor we might have to make some "product recognition" allowance

Greg, are you going to the "Sensor Expo"?(see other Delphi thread of this name)
Is anyone in our group? any one we know?

Geo.

How about "learning programs"?

Ooh.. this sounds like an interesting project.. some ideas that came to me about navigation:

People are talking about lil sensors to detect hazards.. no. Not gonna work at speeds of 30mph+. What we need is some kind of small radar.. or something with some decent range (100 ft or so). You can have those lil sensors for immediate stuff the radar wont detect.. but yeah.

Run the central command system off a computer (thinking athlon, P4.. ) running linux, it has support for GPS stuff I think in the newer kernels and it isn't going to crash over the 10 hour ride :-). The central system recieves input from several embedded systems providing input (sensors, radar, GPS, temperature, etc..). I think having seperate systems controlling everything would make it easier to debug and etc..

Ok, just my two cents worth.. I had more ideas, but i gotta run for now..

[edit] Another plus about using a Linux system as the central command system would be that you can do the navigational programming in practically any language (perl, C/C++, python, basic, asm, sh, etc.. ), thus opening up our project to many more programmers.. since it appears the programming is going to be key. Anyone can build a truck that will drive 250 miles through the desert.. the key is in the electronics [/edit]

I would argue to have a redundant computer system because it's one thing if your driveshaft breaks but it would look really bad if it failed because a wire melted or a fan got stuck or something like that.

I don't believe anyone could do it, honestly.

Granted, a lot of today's technology relies on computers and things to function. A lot of advances in technology have come as a result of breakthroughs in computing. However, it's a bit near-sighted to make it seem like all mechanical challenges have been solved.

The mechanical component of making a car drive itself isn't a walk in the park, by any stretch. It's certainly not impossible, but it's going to require as much effort and ingenuity as programming any computer, GPS, or artificial intelligence.

Sorry, but I tire of the prevalence of this attitude that suggests mechanical design is monkey's work and all success is a miracle of computer programming. Let's show a bit of respect to mechanical design for a change.

I completley agree with you M. We could produce the most amazing navigation system in the history of mankind, but that would get us nowhere without a vehicle of the same quality!

And visa versa I'm sure.

Hmm.. a redefinition of what I (and others) have said seems to be in order:

Obviously, you cannot do without either component. Each component in of itself would be useless.

However, it seems that building a truck.. car.. buggy.. etc that can drive is rather simple (simply because of the existance of millions of cars and etc), although I confess 250 miles is a stretch. It's just there are so many people who build/repair/make/design/etc cars so that those of us who aren't mechanical engineers don't see how hard it is.

I know that while I can do many different things with computers, I would never dream to even make a simple.. umm.. mechanical thingie :) because its not my specialty. So my apologies for making you mechanical guys seem small or whatever.


And yes, redundant systems.. very good idea :)

Ok, I did something obnoxious and started a few new threads.. this thread is so cluttered.. and long.. and etc. We should probably post in seperate thread so we can have some more organization to this project. You know, so you don't have to search through 10 or so pages to find out what you want to know or whats been said or etc.

Postings 6-2-03
 

Programing
Money/Sponsors
Navigation
Mechanical

Well...just make sure that if we implement software controls we also have a hardware backup in case those fail

Also, its not just building the vehicle, because a standard truck can navigate the terrain...but intergrating an efficent and effective navigation system with a vehicle capable of navigating the terrain at the speeds required

Hmm.. these posts seem to have been dead for a few days.. anyone got any new stuff? My internet has been down for a week so...

hello all fellow first members who are involved


im sorrry i have been meaning to get to writing this earlier....

you probably need someone good in cadd
i can help in that aspect, i have pro-e, and inventor i can make drawings for whoever is doing the machining.

let me know because this is for a great cause, please, this is such a great idea!!



Greg

When is this whole thing going to take off, or is it no more? :confused: I haven't heard anything in quite a while. The summer is here and a lot of us are getting bored so, what's up with the project?

HELLO? Is there any one out there?

I have not been posting lately, But i did not expect a dead stop.
I passed up a 85 TOYOTA Truck the other day, the price was right
but , Did every one take the summer off and forget to tell me?

I am still Game for this Challenge but not sure I want to put
out CASH if nobody is going to play.
DARAP forum had a posting about using worm drive stepper
motors for steering, and some talk about speed/turn rate.
Any comments?

This is why I thought it was early to apply for the contest.

The last thing I want to do is tie up resources and then have it all
bottom out.

I REALLY WANT TO PLAY, but WE can't do it alone!

PLEASE POST!

Geo.

I'M POSTING!!! I've been wanting to help with this thing since the start. I found a 1990 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 auto for $2900. It's all in good condition. About that Toyota truck, it's one of my favorite vehicles. I'm just curious as to what the price was.

$500, 2WD Auto, Running, Lic, Fair/good body (ugly gray..Paint fix)
fair tires, Good first test platform

One advantage of buying AZ is no smog / low ins.
maybe you can buy something in CA Cheep the dose not pass?
Just as long as it has clean title

Geo.

Well then...let us begin...we certainly have used enough time for that...

Its Alive!?!???
 

Life???? I was wondering.......
Lots to post but no time right now
We have backing from INNOVATION FIRST and MICROCHIP
Details to fallow,
Geo.

I'm still reading this thread and willing to help with anything I can do from here in Georgia (like find a place to hold and organize a meeting for The Grand FIRST Team at Championships here in Atlanta next spring). I don't believe I can supply any monetary support because I'm too busy getting money for my FRC team, but I'd be glad to help with any planning.

Dan from team 710 i'm willing to help in anyway I can.. I read about that competition about a year ago and thought it was amazing

I believe however also reading that no one has ever finished the race under the specified rules

Just remember that there will have to be an extreme amount of financial backing and slim chance at winning the million

but I'm still up for this if I can help in ne way

Dan

ditto. I'm still willing to help with anything mechaincal or mechanical design.

As for no one ever having won it, I believe this is the first year they are holding it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

481's car
 

Hello,
If you look at the recent uploads you should see some pics of our car!

Progress...

481 is at it again, we have our DARPA car remote controlled!

Re: The Grand Challenge
 

At RIT I am one of the leads on the team and since people have been posing updates I will do the same. We decided back in September that we were going to undergo this project as a conglomeration between 2 of the special interest houses at RIT (Engineering house, and computer science house) as progress was moving along it seemed impossible to get the whole project done for this year so we decided to scale everything down. We are working with a golf cart using real-time vision recognition, gps, and something I can't talk about because of patent restrictions. Our overall goal is to have something that can accurately move cross campus on its own power and intelligence. We moved out of planning stages and have acquired many of our sensors/mechanical devices for assembly start in January. if you would like to check our website for updates the address is darpa.rit.edu can’t say there is much on it right now for the public to see but i have a feeling going the way we are there will be quite an RIT vehicle for next years competition.