Autonomous
 

Well, there is an alternative to carrying all the fuel on the 'bot. If we can manage it, we are allowed by the rules to have autonomous refueling, though I would imagine that it would be substantially more difficult to manage that as well...

tanks!!
 

Why is fuel an issue. Just mount more tanks on the rover. Make it real nice.

Seriously, the real challenge here is not mechanical. I think that we could easily get the controls mounted and designed. We could also easily mount the sensors. The difficult part is in the programming. We need to find a few "cracker-jack" programmers that can program a concrete block.

where do we go from here
 

I think that if this is to be done, a group of the willing has to be assembled quickly to accomplish (or at least explore accomplishing) the goal. There are robotics teams that have the resources (if combined) to at least attempt this challenge.

Just remember. This rover has to go for longer than 15 sec. and it has to do it. You can't just race for the controls.

The thing that bothers me about this competition is that it's for the military.

I much prefer being a geek for geek's sake.

Re: tanks!!
 

Unfortunately, it may not necessarily be as simple as increasing the amount of fuel, though that it the most obvious solution.

To do things efficiently, it's a matter of balancing fuel economy with fuel consumption. You could use one of those small RC Gas engines, but their consider how much fuel you'd have to carry on board to make the entire trip. I doubt that engine is capable of moving the weight of the necessary fuel over that distance, nevermind everything else.

Also, keeping something from breaking itself while operating in harsh conditions over ten hours is a mechanical issue. It's not a cake walk for the design of the vehicle itself, either.

Re: Re: tanks!!
 

An RC engine is capable of propelling an RC at those speeds but not much else. If you are talking about RC Nitro engines nitro fuel is very expensive at about $20 per gallon.

I think the ideal vehicle for this project would be a 1970's Bronco, a K5 Blazer, a 1980's Ford F-250 4x4, or a Jeep Cherokee 4x4. There is one problem I just thought of. The eaisiest way would be to have an automatic tranny however most trucks and SUV's with auto have column shifters.

But, the Jeep Cherokee has a nice center console sliding shifter just like a car. I think this would be the ideal budget vehicle. It is solid axle 4x4, auto, and has a 4.0 I 6. Not to mention it is very easy to work on. Many suspension performance enhancing aftermarket parts are readily available. You could even use a newer one with a car computer to monitor engine systems.

Perhaps even a diesel engine for increased reliability.

Commercially Available Products
 

Remember all that we might be able to find some components for elements of our design already on the market. As we do in FIRST, lets make this project worthy of the Creativity Award, reusing some common parts for uncommon purposes. A Jeep Cherokee 4x4 would probably work as an outer vehicle for our modified components and guidance system, which as M. Krass said, should probably be a combination of global and local (GPS and Radar, perhaps).. :yikes:

Remember, PM me to confirm your team's interest in this competition, so i can get in the entry form soon. Thanks

Our Northrop Robotics Engineer Rick Wagner wants to participate in your coalition.

I think I have an extremely talented alumni of our FIRST team who wants to participate.

Our other mentors hesitate cuz of too busy with FIRST stuff.

Haven't heard back from our students.

I'll help with fundraising and publicity.

Really really really really really really really really really really really big mistake. If they can not even handle usage on our robot without tearing apart in the first practicew round then they shouldn't run in a dessert.

A few of us over here on 1127 are interested in pursuing the project. I can't speak for them all, though, when I say I'd be interested in working with you guys if I can somehow do anything. I live all the way over on the east coast...

Maybe we ought to start an east coast coalition?

Re: tanks!!
 

My father, who is (now retired) a mechanic/fabricator/inventor, installed second/additional gas tanks on several of our family vehicles over the years. When the first tank ran out, all you had to do was flip a switch he had installed on the dashboard to start using the second tank. Most times, he hid it so well, that we were totally unaware that he had added the second tank until he would reach over and flip a switch as the gas gage read "Empty".

Much to my mother's woe, he modified just about every car we ever had. He even installed a drinking fountain, and windshield washing water-jets in the dashboard of a truck one day, just 'cause he felt like it!.
Without fail, every time we got a new car, out came the blow torch. My mother would yell at him to put it away!
(He is not allowed to touch her Ford Windstar unless it is to wash the windows).

Mechanical changes aren't too hard if you find the right (crazy) inventor/mechanic.

Of course you must understand what my father really is to understand where I'mcoming from.

He's just like Dean Kamen. He's an eccentric, inventive genius. He's even the same height, build, and coloring, except that he has blue eyes and straight hair. He even wears the same denim uniform day in and day out.

Now, add fifteen to twenty years on to that, and instead of a gentle, kindly, patient nature, substute a grouchy old fart with a bad temper (If you tell him that to his face, he takes it as a compliment!). Then instead of an attitude that the world can be made a better place with the proper application of technology, imagine a guy who thinks the world can be made a better place with the proper application of explosives. Then you have my father.
The curmudgeonly pessimistic version of Dean Kamen.

Somebody rescue me please!!!!!!!!!!

GPS is now accurate to within a few feet

Im willing to bet you could win this challenge with an automatic tranny jeep, an extra fuel tank

and the stuff that came in the FIRST kit of parts

it would be easy to use the smaller motors in the kit to servo the gas, brakes, steering, shifter on an automatic jeep

all you need to add is a GPS unit, plot your course

and figure out what to do with the $1M prize

obstical avoidance? not required - padded bumpers

cant tell you how many times our bot slammed the wall, railing, operators station during testing and matches - the trick is you have to bounce back far enough to get a good running start again

:c)

What if you're on a curvy road and the waypoints you've been given are a couple of kilometers apart <grin>.

The real solution is very close to what M. Krass described toward the top of this thread (Team Caltech is using this very approach, BTW). This is very much a software problem.

-Kevin

A few feet can mean the difference between being on the cliff and being off the edge of the cliff.... how about we add a human element and put you in that jeep? Not so sure now, are we?


Here's a few things to consider for those who are still serious (my post was bring out the reality and see if you really were intent on doing this):

1. The raw distance between Las Vegas and Las Angeles is 400 miles. This distance could be longer depending on the course. Most SUV's only average 20 mpg, so you'd need lots of fuel.

2. This distance has to be covered in 10 hours, including refill time. The vehicle is going to have to be travelling at 30-40 MPH on average.

3. Vehicles built for off-road are key. Anything that competes is going to have to be built to last. 250 miles of off-roading is not good for an open gearbox (like most FIRST robots). Large vehicles (such as a Jeep/SUV) have a disadvantage on curvy roads where they may need to traverse it slower than smaller, wider vehicles.


Just a few ideas... Obviously whatever system is used will probabaly look much like a dune buggy. A small, lightweight vehicle that has a wide wheelbase so that it can turn through tight corners. You'll want large tires and a suspension. Fuel economy is key. Electric motors won't provide the distance if they're solely powered by batteries. A gas/diesel system would be much more difficult to create, but it would provide a much better energy density for the fuel. Lastly, sensors are a big part. Ultrasonic object detection and avoidance at minimum probabaly. More sophisticated systems would include GPS, topographical course plotting system, or an optical sensing system.




I'm beginning to think it might be easier to break into Columbia/Tristar Studios and steal Johnny Five (Short Circuit).

"Q2. How long is the route?

A2. The exact route has not been determined, but the off-road portion will be approximately 250 miles."
(Quoted from the darpa site http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/faq.htm)

This would mean that you would need about 17 gallons of fuel to go 255 miles if you were averaging 15 mpg. But you would probably use 20 gallons just in case. This is not too much gas, considering most car gas tanks are around at least 15 gallons anyway.

I like the johnny five comment by the way. Those were great movies (short circuit, if you haven't seen it, go rent it)