Houston or EPCOT?
 

I know this has been discussed already in a few threads. At the risk of spreading the topic too thin I want to get a poll on the subject.

For competiton sake, Houston by a mile.
Reliant Stadium is a beautiful facility and it was nice to have somewhere to sit all day and be able to watch the competition while at Epcot you had to make a choice of weather to stay at the tables out of the sun or go walk iver to a field and watch a match, God help you if your team was playing on Einstien.
As for entertainment value I prefer Disney over that crappy theme park. I should have went to the Rockets games instead, last night.

Epcot, hands down

huston is nice and for something FIRST thew together last minute it was pretty damm sweet.

however...
for robotics, it just doesnt have what you need. there are way too many ramps to have to push the robots up and down, the distance between the fields and the pits was absurd.
it just lost alot of the personalized feeling that epcot brings like the ability to sit next to the field and cheer your team on versus being stuck in the bleachers.

the upside is that the dome is in the middle of a regular town, plenty of places to eat (10.99 all you can eat ribs!!) and a radio shack, "wall-mart" and a office depot in walking distance.

~Pyro

First of all, Caroline, it was nice to have met you and Ken down there.


Second, I agree with almost everything stated so far. The space was quite the luxary, considering this is a rapidly growing organization, with an increasing demand to attend the National competition. I think FIRST has outgrown Epcot's tent cities already, and must seek larger venue's to enable the growth of this competition. I remember last year (2002) when people crammed into bleachers to watch matches in boiling hot tents, and suffered miserably when participating on Einstein. Houston proved a large enough space to contain the crowd, the pits, and the spirit of the competition, with room to grow. True, the trek from the pits to the fields were not that great, but for an event of that size the be so well orchestrated in such a short amount of time is nothing short of incredible. If the event were to be held in Houston next year, perhaps some waivers can be signed authorizing the use of the golf carts to move teams and robots from place to place. Or better, as Caroline had suggested, split the pits and fields between the two buildings. As far as spectating goes, there were access stairs at every field. Just like at Epcot, team viewing areas can be fenced in along the field, to provide better views for team participation. Overall, I think it was a great experience for FIRST in general to obtain a taste of what another venue would be like, and now has a sense of what it's options are for future Championship events.

As far as team parties go, I hear mixed reviews from everyone, some say it stunk, others loved it. This is true of any event. I hear mixed things about regional parties, and even last year's party. Everyone will have their own opinion regarding the parties, and not everyone will always be happy. The important thing is that the competition itself is fun, and all enjoy themselves while competing.

Epcot for sure... I only went to Epcot once, but last years competition was much more fun for my team and I. I think that while Reliant Stadium was a good place given the time frame that FIRST had to deal with, it was not the best place to have the competition. It's just too big. I remember last years playoff rounds were so intense, with all the teams inside the tents, and everyone packed together. The atmosphere was amazing. Reliant Stadium was too cavernous, and the noise just wasn't the same. I know for a fact that it wasn't the teams or anything, because the Canadian Regional was just as good for atmosphere as Florida was last year. There also MUST be a better way to deal with the robots than this years set up. We ended up having to rotate pushers because the guys who were doing it in the morning were so exhausted by the afternoon, and the golf carts were deemed a "safety hazard" (how is a controllable golf cart better than a bunch to people running pushing their robot??).

On top of the venue issues, the setup for entertainment was better at Disney. Six Flags wasn't open for much of the competition, which left a lot of people bored on Wednesday and Thursday, and once it was open, the lines were so long that it was almost pointless.

So, Houston did a decent job with what they had, but I think that the Disney setup was better, and more fun.

Being this is my fourth year in FIRST, and having three prior years at EPCOT... I would have to say EPCOT hands down. Here are some of my reasons, sorry to sound so down... but this has really been my least favorite FIRST event EVER.

1. The distance from the pits to the field was horrible, and those ramps were insane.

2. I know this is a budget cut event, but having no screens on the division fields really sucked.

3. I don't even want to go into some of the referee horror stories. This added with some teams blatant hatred for other teams makes me sick.

4. The match pairing hardly seemed random. Some of the teams I talked to had the same robots in almost every single match.

5. Elimination should be 2 out of 3. Enough said.

I am not saying the event was horrible, just nothing I am used to seeing. I was kind of sad that FIRST wasn't the way I described it to my rookie team this year... I wish they could have seen it at its prime last year :(

OK everyone is saying Houston was better and some are saying that epcot is better. well i have to also say epcot. here are my reasons

Negatives:

1. the food pricing in the stadium in Houston was out of this world.

2. the free food sucked and most of it was cold and not enjoyable.

3.the distance between the pits and the fields was insane. i have never in my life been soooo sore from all the walking there.

4. the busses sucked. they need to run more busses.

5. the finals setting sucked. by the time we got there thankfully we found seats cause my team (25) was in the finals. but the others could not find that much seating and i felt really bad for them.

6. the entertainment was horrible. we sat in our hotels for the time playing xbox, and other stuff.

7. Six Flags----don't make me go there. my team was trying to get me to go there but from what i heard from others i wasn't going to waste my time. and when my team (25) went they all told me that it really was sucky.

Positives:

1. THE FIRST FAMILY OF COURSE. all the teams there were great.

2. the space was nice.

3. the closing ceremony was excellent. those fireworks first scared the crap out of me cause i did not expect any this year in a closed arena.

4. the painting that team 103 presented was outstanding and almost brought tears to my eyes listing to the beautiful words that was said.


thats all i have to say about the aspect of the competition.

all in all epcot is still better even though is hot there but i would rather be hot than walk and pay alot of money to eat :)

Mario Azar

advantages to epcot
 

The main advantages to Disney over Houston was the fact that when you are staying in Disney, you are essentially in your own city. I know that my team is so strict with rules we can't even cross the road without a mentor so in Houston everything that we could do in Epcot was impossible. The idea behind Disney was there is a lot to do with transportation provided in a small area. It is just the best place to have it.

Also as a forth-year FIRSTer, I'd have to say epcot for some of the follow reasons, some of which have already been mentioned:

1. Yeah, that walk to the pits from the arena was ridiculous. I feel bad for all the drive teams that had to lug their robot back and forth.

2. Well, unlike the years in Disney, many teams were scattered throughout Houston. Past years, most of the teams attending nationals either staying ON Disney property, or were right near it. The differing numbers of hotels with FIRST people in them was staggering.

3. The last is one I can't really describe but if you went to nat's in previous years, you can sympathize. It just didn't feel like nationals, but I can't pin down why.

I'm not saying Reliant stadium wasn't good. I loved how the fields were set up. I also like how you could watch all four fields as once, due to the massive screens on the top of each wall. That made watching all the division finals matches especially easy, as opposed to having to run from one division to another to find seats for a match.

But to address a few points:

I already mentioned this but I can sympathize.

I don't know. I really didn't mind it. I had a good view of Curie and Einstein for both days of competition. It didn't bother me at all, if I couldn't see what was going on, I just looked over at the wall.

There are horror stories every year. People need to stop complaining about it. The refs have a job to do, and they can call it as they see it. That's all there is to it. Granted, a call may not seem justified to those in the stands, but the refs can only do so much. Cut them so slack please, they're just trying to do what they can to keep the competition fair.

That has nothing to do with the way nats went this year. That happens every year, and yes it is sickening. I can not think of a good reason to form such hatreds. People should be talking and exchanging ideas. Friendly rivalries are okay, because they spur on ideas and fuel more motivation for some teams. But the blatant hatred should stop, I can agree with you. As with the looking down on teams. If someone comes to you pit wanting to ask you about your robot, you should not treat them with arrogance. A certain team, which shall remain nameless, treated me like crap when I was asking them about how their robot worked and how their autonomous mode worked. I know I'm not the only one to experience this and it sickens me. The teams in FIRST should treat each other with respect, not with such insulting words to discourage other teams.

Again, I agree. The randomizer this year didn't work well. I noticed this at the UTC regional too. Oh well, what are you going to do. Smeh.

I don't know. I think this way, it made the matches alot more exciting. But that is up to everyone's individual tastes though

my vote is epcot, hands down. last year the competition seemed more focused on the unity of the teams, and epcot helped facilitate that. This year, everyone was separated. the issue of housing at disney was excellent; most teams stayed in the park or near it, making the opportunity to meet other people better. just knowing that there were hundreds of other FIRSTers right there was nice, and kept me focused on why we were there. Even the pits weren't separated into divisions, making it easier to meet other teams and check out robots that weren't in your division. i know this year i hardly ever left my division's section of the pits and i feel like i missed out on seeing some great robots. another thing i really noticed was that the team party was hardly that. yeah, the rides at six flags were great, but i missed the dancing and socializing that we had in epcot. last year the team party was all about winding down and having a fun time with everybody, because it was our last night there, but this year it just seemed more like a field trip.

Ask Jason M. with FIRST (originally from 254) about how unfair 60 was treated. I really don't want to go into it because its not my place, but when I found out I was appalled.

There were also some instances in both Curie and Galileo playoffs where teams got DQd that should not have. Team 341 got called for an intentional tipping when they were trying to keep 68 off the ramp. It didn't effect them from moving on, but it was just so bogus.

And I agree, the refs work hard. The thing with 60 is just unacceptable though...

Houston had its advantages, but.....
 

Houston had its advantages. It was much better for watching matches, especially the finals, with the field being on the floor and the stands elevated. A non-Houston-related thing I liked was mixing the finals matches with the awards. It was good for the teams in the finals because it allowed them more cool down time and more repair time, if needed. I liked it as a spectator, because it separated the speeches with the excitement of the matches. As has been mentioned by many others, the downside of Houston's competition site was the long walk and steep ramps for the drive teams.

That said, overall, I much prefer Epcot for making the Championship a fun event. It is hard to imagine a better place, anywhere in the world, for 10,000 teenagers to stay entertained and have fun safely, and without getting into trouble. If you stay in All Star Sports/Music/Movies, you have the swimming pools, arcades, etc. right there, and you have transportation to and from all the parks. Disney is just a fun place to spend a few days. It is kind of expensive, but the cost per person wasn't that much higher than at Houston.

Our hotel in Houston, on the other hand, had a pool, but the water was so cold that almost no one used it, and that was about it for "entertainment" at the hotel. Also, I think most people felt that it was not the sort of location where you would want a bunch of kids to take off on their own to have fun. The Six Flags park in Houston seemed ill-prepared for the size of our group at the gate when the awards ceremony ended. It took way too long to get in, and then there was the food...

Still, those who set up the competition venue at Epcot might be able to learn some things from the Houston event, and from the regionals. Maybe I'm missing something, but it would seem that having the Einstein field lower to the ground, and having the bleachers closer to the field and higher would make things much better for watching the matches there. A place like Reliant would always have the advantage of being an indoor facility, though.

There are a number of priorities involved in orgainizing the Championship and selecting a site, and an important one is to make the event FUN. Disney is probably the best place in the world for that to happen.

I was somewhat dissapointed by the FIRST setup in Houston. This was my first year, and it just wasn't like what others had described Epcot as being. There wasn't enough to do in between matches. I got tired just sitting there and watching matches all day, the only other thing to do was walk around and visit the pits. They need to setup something in the parking lot. I enjoyed playing frisbee outside the stadium though. Six Flags was also overcrowded at night and took a LONG time to get into. I had more fun at the hotel sometimes!

I was WIPED out by the end of the day by walking between the stadiums SO MUCH. The ramps are so long! I also didn't like how so many teams were at different hotels!

It was still fun overall.

I liked Houston a lot this year for championships. I do not think that in the later years that Epcot will have the facilities to hold us. Anyway back to the point i had only three complaints....

1)The distance between the pits and fields and the distance between matches. I recall having one set of matches where we had no time to get to the pits, so i ran full speed from the outside of the field area and the pits to get a new drill motor and a new battery just to come back and not have enough time to change the motor.

2)The food. The food was way too overpriced and the quality was less than satisfactory, minus the Papa John's Pizza. I mean common 3.25 for a water. Enough said.

3)The 8in. of concrete with no padding. As being in the pits all three days and on my feet for almost the whole time my feet where killing me by the end of the day. The 8 inches of concrete floor with no give has to be changed.

Besides those three complaints I thought that FIRST did a good job organizing Championships this year. I could be wrong but wasn't there 5 divisions last year? Einstein being the extra division.

Hey, I would take those bathrooms over the small sweltering portable ones at Epcot.

This is my sixth year in FIRST and I can say that I would pick EPCOT over Houston any day. It did not feel like nationals. There were to many things missing. Like everyone else I agree the pits were too far, the food was disgusting, and I did not like the fact that there were not screens at the fields. I also did not like the fact that all the playing fields were so seperated. EPCOT was also much more fun.

Without going into too much detail about reffing (it is a very difficult job), the flipping call in the playoffs on Curie were discussed by all 5 refs. Three (including the two closest to the action) called it as intentional, one called unintentional, and one couldn't see. It was a majority decision based on what the closest refs saw, which was activation of a pneumatic ramp with another robot on top to flip them over. It may not have been called intentional had the alliance not been shouting "flip! flip!" and celebrating when it did. I was the ref on the corner closest to the red alliance, and I know what I heard and saw.

I can also say the refs do actually have the most difficult job during the competition, since no one wants to give penalties, or DQ, but there are rules, and they must be enforced. Of course some calls will look bad to the spectator, especially if a call is made against your team, but keep in mind, the refs are much closer to the action and can see exactly what's going on. It is their best judgment what is fair to all competitors. Great job to all refs out there, and I look forward to working with all of you in the future.


Back to the original topic, I think Houston did a great job, given they really had no idea what they were getting in to (as a city). EPCOT has an advantage because they know what to expect and accommodate for. They have the experience of hosting FIRST championships for countless years. Granted, there were issues (the ramps, bathrooms, etc) but it's nothing that can't be ironed out given more time to plan, and given they know now what to expect. I thought the crowd was a lot more energetic here than in EPCOT last year, especially with each division having a dedicated place, free from the noise pollution of each other, and more than adequate seating. Overall I had a great experience, the people were fantastic, and the competition breathtaking.

There were four divisions, but five playing fields with the teams playing most of their Q matches on their "home" field and one or two on the Einstein field.

Agreed, those bathrooms at the competition site at EPCOT were tiny and they smelled horrible! Ive been going to stadiums for sporting events for years, (so maybe this is just me) but I didnt really notice the bathrooms in the astrodome.


On a second note

I really liked the venue. Yeah bladdy bladdy blah you had to walk for 7 minutes to get from your pit to the field. My thoughts: Whoopie doo! I prefer to call it :ahh: "Excercise"... no matter how much some people try to avoid it....we all need it, and its required to remain healthy :ahh:. Thanks to Houston we all will remain a little healthier because we got our exercise :rolleyes:


We were in a world class facility in one of the newest domes in the world that will be hosting the Super Bowl in 2004. I personally thanked Bob Hammond when I saw him for being one of the people to get the Reliant Center as the Venue and I hope that FIRST returns there next year.


Finally

Who gives a darn if you dont like the rides, we had admission to a six flags that was just opened to teams. You should be greatful and not complain and moan.

Heh now that Ive vented that one off, im going home from school. Ill post my ideas for improvement for next year later....

As a first timer to Championships I really have a hard time saying which is best. Things I know are
1 - the trip to the pits was long but you are younger than me and on 1 morning by 10:30 I had made 6 trips back and forth. Someone kidded that this was FIRSTs way of bring P.Ed into robotics.
2 - I heard a lot of volunteers that thought that it was much nicer in the air conditioning than the humidity and heat at Epcot
3 - visiting other teams in other divisions was a choice you could make. I visited every team in Curie and found it good to have them all together. For team scouting it was also easier than having everybody all spread out.
4 - The Curie division rocked the house. We (I) had soooo much fun. I believe that things are as you make them and the kids at Curie where great. BTW thanks team 48 for the hair.
5 - As time goes on we remember " back when I was younger ". The past times almost always seem best. Think of us rookies and what excitement we saw. The freshness, competition, and friendships.
I may be lecturing and maybe Epcot was better but to those who only know Houston what could be better.

If we return to Houston, I bet ramp-friendliness will be a major consideration in the design of teams' robot carts. To use a slogan from my model airplane experience, "lightness is a virtue."

Epcot, by far. Why? Granted, I though Houston was nice, it just couldn't handle all of the teams.

1.) Food was crappy and the prices for just nachos were in the $6 range! Sodas were $3.75, a dollar more than DISNEY!

2.) RAMPS SUCK. Especially when they are dirty and mundane.

3.) Security boarder-lined questionable. Searches went on constantly at Reliant, but then it was on-and-off at Astrodome.

4.) Dark, dingy, and gray was the name of the game here. No color, no soul to the games. Give me the fake turf at WDW any day.

5.) Bathrooms bordered being shut down for declination at Astrodome.

Now to Six Flags:

1.) DIRTY PARK. It made Astrodome look like Disney.

2.) Food was crap. The chicken I got was FROZEN. Yes, as in COLD AS ICE.

And for the good side, it seems like FIRST has found a new venue for the Champs. And we might go back to Disney...

More details?

Ok this was my first time going to nationals, my team is a mere second year team. Personally the long island regional was far superior a competition to this event. reasons...
1. Distance from the matches to the pits was insane.
2. The judges didn't give a crap about the match simulator program i wrote. It solves each and every problem associated with the match pairings.
3. Very simply, the bathroom trough. eww.
4. Does a segway have enough torque to pull the bot up the ramp?
5. Did i mention the distance between the pits and the field? I had to sprint back to the pit when my team was already in queue because my laptop battery died before I got to upload a program. I run a 60 flat quarter mile, so it was ok in the end.
6. Food was terrible. Everywhere. And my hotel didn't have internet to the rooms. That killed me more than anything.
7. Entertainment sucked. Ok six flags was cool, but it gets old quick.

Of course there were some good things about the event. But one thing that they should do in the future is keep the fields and the pits as close as possible in earshot or sight if possible. We had a awesome bot and almost flawless matches, but never got any recognition so we were out of luck for alliance choosing even though we were a REGIONAL FINALIST. ahem ahem we beat rage and ended hauppauges winning streak at 18 in the semi's at LI. But we love 358.

lol, yep. We went 7 and 0 at the nationals (Undefeated!), seeded 15th out of 73 teams and still didn't get picked. oh well.

Neither could Disney...thats why there was the qualification system put in ;)

Yeah but these were real sodas, unlike that watered down garbage disney calls soda ;)

Would you prefer stairs instead? :D

I dont remember having any security at disney besides a cast worker waving a giant glowing wand

Heh I think many people had more things to worry about then the texture of the floor ;)

It still beats those smelly, tiny little trailers at EPCOT



Now to Six Flags:

I dont think many people noticed and it wasn't that bad...

Heh Disney's party food wasn't anything spectacular either

Houston was very well organized, and had good facilities. I have to give credit to FIRST for whipping such a quality event together on relatively short notice. However, some of the "fun-factor" of EPCOT just wasn't there. I guess its kind of hard to top Disney for fun though.

I totally agree with the team 60 problem, it was unacceptable, after talking with them, hearing that the inspection took well over an hour, then a note left in the pit instead of telling them directly what went on then getting DQ'd before they even started auton in the first match, not what we are trying to promote in the first community. Shame, Shame, Shame on whom ever was the ring leader behind that circus.

I agree, it was missing something. Im not sure what it was.

I missed the publicity of Disney. I remember riding on buses at disney and meeting a couple from Canada who had gone to disney the year before and saw FIRST. When they asked my group why we were at disney i explained to them it was for FIRST. Unfortunately, it was the day after nationals, and they missed it. They told me that they were disappointed that they had missed it. Experiances like that did not occur at Houston. There was no explaining what FIRST was to complete strangers, because there wasn't a lot of people that just saw the event and investigated. At disney, people saw the venue as they were entering the park and stopped to investigate. I really enjoyed that publicity.

Also, i liked how einstein was used last year. You only had 3 matches there so it wasn't like you were in the heat for long. The big stage that was the focal point of the competition was exciting, this was missing at Houston as einstein was only used for finals.

Also, there was no options for food. At least at disney there were multiple places for finding food outside the area where your passes were good. And the FIRST provided food at the arena at Disny wasn't half bad. At houston there were no choices. Several members of my team were vegitarians, and had to have bags of chips because that was the only meatless food their vochers bought. At least at Disney they had cheese pizza.

Speaking about healthier, the Texas air was sooooooooo much cleaner than NJ air, I felt my life expectancy being extended another 5 years. Then I got real sick cause the air was too clean. Once our team returned home from the nationals, good ol' NJ polluted air filled my lungs...then I remembered how much NJ sucked...

Experimental Prototype Community Of Tommarrow is so much better because it's really close and I know the venue well. And because if it was at Epcot this year I woulda got to go. But NOOOOO... FIRST had to go and get all selfish and move it to the fattest city in the US. Do they want us to be a bunch of fat engineers or something? They weren't very gracious to me when they moved it. Shame on you FIRST.

Yet Disney could process those kids in less than 30 mins to their hotels, compare that to Houson....

WTF? You buy Coke at Disney and Reliant. Same size, same brand. Yet magicaly it costs over $1 more at Reliant.



Tell me of one location of stairs from the pits to the fields at Disney. How many? None?

I agree to, Disney had lax security, but when FIRST says they will have major security at Reliant, I shure hope not they didn't expect more.



Like the price of drinks after they just passed out from climbing 4 flights of ramps?



At least those were clean....



Yeah, my father and teams mates just imagined the huge wads of gum stuck to the walls in 'Serial Thriller', or the garbage in the que for Texas Cyclone, or the gum target on Dungeon Drop. :rolleyes:

But they atleast tried to make it special instead of just opening a party pavilion and set out food. Remeber the fireworks? The music? The partys?

amen to that, jersey sucks in many ways

coming out of the airport i had trouble breathing like it was wiered i honestly beleive it was due to the fact that the air was not a s polluted and i wasnt used to it

There is a reason for that... FIRST switched insurance providers this year and they had to have stricter party rules. No music, no dancing, no fireworks...not FIRST's rules, thats from the insurance company. Heh aren't insurance companies great? :p

I didn't go to Houston, but I heard there were fireworks in the closing ceremonies.

Here are my thoughts:

-- The distance from the pits to the stage was rediculous. It easily took 10 minutes to get from the pits to Archemedes, and multiply that by 7 matches, that is 140 minutes of walking. God forbid you forget anything in the pits!

-- Not having a screen at each field was a big mistake. From the stands having to look all the way to the other side of the stadium to find out how much time was remaining meant that I often missed crucial plays. Honestly, how much would four screens and projectors cost? 50k? FIRST can afford that.

-- The seating in the arena was great. Unlike EPCOT, there were never cameramen in the way, and everyone could get a good view. The air-conditioning was nice as well!

-- What was with the eye-level flags in the walkway from the pits to the arena? If you walked through there, you were constantly hit in the face! As Ken Stafford put it, the only reason people walked through there is because they felt guilty about all the trouble that FIRST went to put it up in the first place.

-- Security at the Reliant was a joke. I was asked to open my backpack when I walked in, but once it was open, I couldn't get anyone's attention to actually look in it, so I just walked in. Other times, simply opening a side pocket was enough. I even saw some guards just feeling the outside of bags, and not even looking inside. If someone wanted to get something inside and kill 40,000 high school students, they woudn't have any problem. Either have security or don't, but don't just waste our time and create bottlenecks without being even slightly effective.

-- The food wasn't that bad. The burgers were much larger than anything from McDonalds or Burger King, and considering the sheer quantity they made, they were rather good. Also, I never had to wait more than 30 seconds in line to be served, and many of the farther tables never had a line at all. It wasn't gourmet, but it was filling. Yes, there was the time I missed lunch, and nothing but Krispy Kreme was open in the Reliant, and I didn't feel like walking 10 minutes back to the 'dome, but it was still better than many regionals.

-- The closing ceremony format was very nice from what I saw (although I missed a great deal of it). The finale with the video and fireworks was a perfect wrap-up.

-- The city itself was rather dull. Around our hotel, there was literally nothing open after 8pm except the Hard Rock cafe a couple miles away. No comparison to Disney at all.

-- Six Flags wasn't as bad as I expected, and I was able to do everything there over the course of the two nights -- something that is impossible at EPCOT. My major complaint is that they didn't allow leathermen in, and wouldn't even let me put in in a locker or check it somewhere, so I had to walk all the way back to the Astrodome and convince the security guard to drop mine in our pit (apparently, I was the fifth or sixth person to do this). The funniest thing was leaving the park after it closed and seeing the dozens of kids searching the bushes for the leathermen they hid there.

-- In all, I think that in a few years, Houston could be just as good as EPCOT. Things need to change, but I'm sure that FIRST will listen to our comments and do their best to fix them.

EPCOT For Sure
 

While the arena seating was good. The negatives far outweighed that one positive.
All of the negatives have been outlined in previous posts, so I will not bore you with repetition.
In sort, EPCOT wins by a mile.

Many would complain that EPCOT had a lack of room, seating was often packed on the fields, the fields and the entire competiting tent was quite dark and loud. However I feel that the "openness" of Reliant Stadium, and the pits really took away from the feeling of competition. I had a lot of fun this year, however I didn't have the same feeling of nationals as I usually do. I didn't feel as excited and as "charged" as I usually am.

I would have to say that the Lunches that has been provided by EPCOT in past years was far superior to anything that I found in the Reliant complex or Six Flags. I was looking forward to the same type of lunches we always get, but alas it was nowhere to be found.

In past years at EPCOT we have stayed outside of DISNEY at the Days Inn Suites, and it is always very nice cause there were many things around to do, "Old Towne" and Checkers and thousands of other things. As well the buses would run up to AN HOUR AFTER the park closed. I understand that Disney is setup for the busses and Houston was not, but this is a plus for Disney, this makes Disney better for us.

You know how FIRST isn't just about the Robots? well thats why i liked Disney better than Six Flags, cause Disney isn't just about the rides. I live somewhat near the Best Six Flags in the Country (Six Flags Great Adventure), and I've read many places where Astroworld is the worst one, however I did Enjoy the rides there VERY VERY much. But I missed the enviroment of Disney very much.

As has been said: The bathrooms in the Astrodome were horrible, and though the trailors in EPCOT were hot and smelly, the bathrooms at the Astrodome were smelly and DIRTY. The ones at EPCOT were CLEAN, a big plus.

I never got to go to another team's pit and talk to them. I was always wasting 30 minutes going between the Dome and the Stadium. In past years I have met many teams and still gone between Einstein field and the others and even EPCOT itself. Somehow everyday many many hours got wasted, I believe it was being called to the field 45 minutes early due to having to take 20 minutes just to get there.

I enjoyed Nationals very much. However I think EPCOT is a better place for it. Epcot is setup for us better.

I was waiting for the announcement to evacuate the building.
I thought for sure the ceiling was going to light up. It looked like it was made of paper.

I say just be patient. by next year many things will be different in first and in houston. for one thing, the planning committee will have much more time to make a colorful, festive atmosphere(1 year compared to 4 months). also, many of houstons major projects will be finished. reliant park will be fully completed, and the park between the dome and the stadium wil make for a great team hangout (even better than the giant a/c unit hidden beind the trees for the dome ;) ). the metro light rail will be done, allowing teams to go from the competition to downtown or the mueseum district, which isn't too far from montrose where theres food, clubs, stores a just alot of fun. i know that im biased being from houston, but that just means i know the potential of the city. i think houston really wants first, and can turn this into a huge successful event. look at the rodeo, thats something several times bigger than first and is an event run very smoothly by the city. as for the people complaining about astroworld, the park sint even open to the public this time of year. be greatful. i like my theme parks to have quality rides; i dont need glitz and glamor. first is getting bigger every year, and they need room to grow. lord knows they have it in texas! so do go callin' my home sh**ty cuz you cant take a few ramps and a little walk like a man! sorry, texas pride got outta control there.

on a side note i'd like to say i loved chuck yeager's speech! best in the history of first(thousand times better than any disney exec.). it really is a shame we cant strap some bombs to our robots an blow the other guy up!

We're not calling your home town crap, we're just saying that it isn't suited for 25,000 + kids to roam around. Reliant and Astro just don't offer what we need. You should be glad we went this year.

And mabey you should check the Astroworld website, it's been open for atleast a month.

Are you on crack?

Seriously, that's probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read on these boards.

There was, but it was MINOR compared to the infamous propane tank lightings in 2001 and the massive fireworks that FIRST was able to use with the old provider

first of all the thing with the bombs is just quoting chuck yeager.
This was only my first year of being to the nationals and I have to admit it was fun. Yet, it didn't feel like a championship, it felt more like another regional. The vast emptiness of the dome swallowed any cheer that was started. It just didn't feel as lively as I thought it would be.
Another aspect was the ramps. After 6 sprints up them a day while pushing a 130 lb. robot it really kills your legs. Yet, when the drive team does get tired security wouldn't let anyone else push the robot. The ramps wouldn't be so bad if security would let other members of the team push the robot once in a while and give the drive team a break.
My major problem was the buses. Friday night there only seemed to be 1 blue bus for every 5 red. And when one of the members of my team decided to get on the blue bus that left before we has all gotten in line it took us an hour to find him. And, being the last stop on the way to the dome we would constantly have to get on a later bus because the earlier ones were full. We usually didn't arrive until 8:30 or so.
The medical center where we stayed wasn't so bad. There was a burger king and a pizza hut out in the parking lot, and the pizza hut was open until about 12. we didn't eat around there though. We mainly ended up going to places near the dome.
Finally, my favorite part of Houston was the fair that was going on in reliant park on Saturday. My team was able to ride the mechanical bull there for 3 dollars a ride. It was better than any ride at astroworld.

Okay I believe Houston was horrible if you had ever been to any Nats before. I went in thinkin that it would be diff but feel the same and i was soooooooo wrong. Here is what I felt was wrong w/ it:
1. Food need I say more it was the worst crap I have ever tasted in my life, the only reason i gaged it down was because it was free

2. the seating @ the end sucked cause the teams were separated onto balconies and over into the seating for the other fields

3. The walk to and from the pits, what were they thinking way to far

4. Team Party- i know we can't have dancing but the team party @ the end sucked nobody really socialized w/ other teams unless they went there w/ them, unlike epcot where u could make a few more friends @ the party.

5. Teams- apparently being here meant some teams didnt need to follow FIRST etiquette, really is booing necessary, teams werent nice to eachother unless they had met before. The spirit of FIRST wasnt at Houston

Im not sayin all this stuff cause i hate houston in fact i was born there it just wasnt very good. hopefully next year we'll be able to go back to epcot. maybe people will then go back to having the Spirit of FIRST w/ them.

Not entirely true... I know Saturday we hung out with some of 47's drive team. So, there was at least some inter-team socialization, though I would agree there was not as much as there was at Epcot.

Houston vs Orlando
 

this is my third year with first. I've been to nationals all 3 years. I think that there are both positives and negatives about each location.
starting with orlando:
now the whole orlando scene I may not have much crediblity in becuase the 2 years I was there my team didn't buy the whole package we always did our own thing, which by the way worked out great. there was so much stuff in the area to keep you busy(Fun Spot and Wonderworks are highly recommended)... I also really liked the Einstien field. I read that some of you didn't. I like being able to relax outside and still be able to watch the competition, I mean come on thats the reason we're there in the first place. really the only negative I have about orlando is the prices... which you're going to find at any venue we might end up at.
now Texas being fresh in my mind has a little more likes and dislikes... probably more dislikes.
number one dislike being of course the hike between field and pit...
then the amount of space at the stadium... talk about wasted space... I heard comments from a couple people suggesting that if it is in houston again, then maybe have 3 fields (einstein being one of them) and pits for those fields in the stadium.. and then 2 fields and their pits in the astrodome... only problem with that being (are you ready for this) having to walk the hike just to get goodies from the other pits... might make it seem like 2 separate events...
I didn't like that I had to stay inside to see robots... exspecially with the air conditioning forcing me to keep my sweatshirt on...
I didn't like that the screens weren't at the fields... but then again I did like that I could just look up and watch other matches while my field was resetting...
I didn't like that there was only 2 pay phones in the stadium... as opposed to orlando where they have the 2 carts that have like 8 phones each... (sorry I don't have a cell phone)
I did like that in the pits there was room to test new changes... I also liked that you could go up in the stands and look out over all the pits... that was just an amazing thing to look out and see all those teams working all at the same time...
the list goes on... those are just the small ones

I had a blast at both Nationals but I liked Epcot way better... There was too much walking in Houston between pit and comp... In Epcot you had your bag checked once to get in but in Houston they stop you everywhere you are going... I mean I was in a hurry to run to the pit but I had to stop so they could look at the top of my bag and tap the bottom... They should have fenced the place in and checked the bag once... With Epcot all they would have to do is make it bigger so the teams had more places to sit instead of being tight... I did like Houston competition for the space it had...

Although I have been in FIRST for 3 years, this was my first year attending Nationals. In 2002, my sophomore year, I was recovering from major back surgery and was not able to attend with my team, my team (247) did not qualify for nationals, but this year, nationals proved themselves to be a dissapointment, I had loads of fun, and my team did great, but the venue for the event was just plain bad.

My team was a part of the Newton division, and it just so happened that Newton was at the front of the astrodome, but the exit to the playing fields was at the back of the stadium, and the Newton field itself was the furthest field from the enterance to Reliant stadium. This walk was even longer for the people without operator badges, such as myself. With a fractured shin, the ramps were a killer. What would a person in a wheelchair do about these ramps? They were quite steep, and a big pain to push or pull a robot and cart up and down.

The prices for food at sports venues are almost always expensive, but 6.50 for Nachos? That can simply be defined as extortion, once I used my prepaid "meal" tab for the day, I didn't have anything to drink, so I was forced to buy myself a 3.75 soda, which is simply outrageous. The bathrooms at reliant were just fine, but the facilities at the astrodome were poor enough to make me hold it for the walk to reliant.

On the first day ( thursday ) the individual fields had no label to designate which field was which, that left people confused, and walking unecessary laps around the field, com'on FIRST, that's just downright forgetful.

There was a lot of space in the pits though, and the floors didn't give me a problem, because our sponsor took a PICO rug out of one of it's offices and brought it for us.

I was dissapointed that there was no real place for teams to come down to field level to cheer their team on, at Newton, there was a little area, but that could accomidate 15 people, max.

For next year, if the Nationals are held in Houston, I would advise that the Astrodome's frieght elevator to take the robots and their accompanying drive teams to the ground level, and to cut down the walk to Reliant, open up those front doors to the stadium itself, and do security there.

not trying to be negative but.........
 

This was my first nationals and I thought it was pretty cool (I would like to go to Epcot next year after all I've heard about it) but was I the only one who realized how easy it would have been to do a terrorist thing in the Astrodome. It would have been harder at Reliant, but at the Astrodome, I don't even remember being checked and it would have been easy to smuggle in a big crate of "robot stuff." Just wondering if anybody else noticed this. If this upsets anybody, I can edit it immediately.

On a brighter note, when I got back, my parents were wondering if I lost weight so I checked and I lost five pounds. Guess walking up and down those ramps all day is good for something. But having two divisions in Reliant and two divisions in the Astrodome would have been a much better idea.

Were the food prices any better at Epcot?

Re: not trying to be negative but.........
 

A. -- Well, while it seems to everyone like it's a good idea to split the pits, I don't know if it's something that would really work out too well. Foremost, you're halving students' opportunities to interact with new people. This year, I had enough trouble finding my way out of Curie, but if two of the divisions were in a building entirely separate from where I was competing all day, it'd be as if they didn't even exist.
Further, splitting the pits into two different locations means that FIRST has to double-up on everything, nearly. That could be just another unnecessary strain on FIRST. ...and, think about how announcements would have to be made? Yuck.

2. -- I think food prices at Epcot were comparable, but I didn't eat at the Epcot arena much. The park itself provided more variety and larger portions for a similar price to most students.

Well, at Disney World you EXPECT to pay outrageous prices for food - it's just part of the package. In Houston, on the other hand, I was appalled by the cost of a decent meal since there was little else to make up for it.

Well... what I'm about to say allready has been said more-or-less, but this is going to be another 20 page thread, so oh well...

This is my second year in FIRST, so i've been to disney once and now houston once.

I'm leaveing aside all calls made by refs (who have a really hard job and do the best they can, just as in any other sport) and the game, because they are two different topics.

I'd say that the actual buildings were much better in TX than FL, and FIRST is just too big to hold in tents any more. As said 100 times, the distence between pits & stands was crazy, but hey... they might be able to work something better out next year.

Having AC'ed buildings was very nice, and from a scouting standpoint, not haveing to move from stand-to-stand was a plus.

As for food, nothing is great or cheep at events like these, so i have to stand here.

The security was a total joke. At all three events 201 attended, this happened. (each event searched people) I would have a backpack on my back, and then carry another cloth bag full of stuff in my hands. Every time, I'd open the cloth bag, they'd take a peek inside and let me go. Never took the time to look at my backpack. So, yeah... very useless. Personally, I think they should totally drop it. There is no way you can screen that many people in a timly manner. (Not sure if they can do that though because of legal reasons.) BUT... they shouldn't go to a six flags approch which was totally crazy; makeing everyone go through metal detectors.

However, I would agree with people, it seems to lack something that last year had. It might just be my memory, but I seemed to remember nats as sooo much cooler last year. It may have been the fact that everything was put up on a parking lot, places for teams to come down to watch your team during competiton, the packedness of the fields, or the hugeness of the einstin field... don't really know.

Lastly, face it... houston is not disney. Disney is totally designed for toursits and has endless things to do. While there are cool things in houston, it just doesn't have the "disney magic" to it.

As for next year, well, we'll see what next year brings. I think that from a "fun" standpoint, Disney is better hands-down. But, from an infostructure standpoint, tents won't cut it any more. Unless Epcot is willing to make bigger changes, which is hard for them to do, nats will be some where else.

Jack

Those "small sweltering" bathrooms at EPCOT had Air Conditioning in them!! I found it quite relieving to be able to go in there for a quick cool down.:D

This being my rookie year, can't really compare the two much (although I've been to EPCOT before) I do agree with Jack though because our hotel was in the middle of well...nowhere and there was virtually nothing to do for the longest time. Everywhere around us, there were just small business and such. Not much to do. Disney is designed for tourists and has much more to do...although the space center was kind of cool.

I agree on that.
Last year on my way back to my hotel from one of the parks i met an older guy (probably in his 50's) from South America who had been all over the united states with his wife. He said that all of his life he had dreamed of visiting the united states and he was finally doing it. It was soo sweet. Thats the kind of thing that would probably only happen at. . . . .
THE HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH!:p

As a note of official Walt Disney Company nomenclature, "The Happiest Place on Earth" is used only in referring to Disneyland in Anaheim, California.

Walt Disney World is sometimes referred to as the Vacation Kingdom, but is never known as The Happiest Place on Earth.

:)

Wow! I never knew that...thanx for clearing that up. :p

I really hope its true
 

I just got back from lunch with one of the parents from another team I know. She attended Nationals, as did I. She complained to FIRST about the event (Houston) at the event because she was so let down by it. The person she talked to told her that FIRST and DISNEY already have a 5 year contract signed for nationals.

If i had heard from somebody else from somebody else etce etc, I wouldn't have believed it. But she was the person who complained and was told BY first personell. Next year I shall be (hopefully) adopted by two teams! one for the first two weeks of january in which I have winter break, and another one during the following 4 weeks of the build period, so hopefully I shall be attending the redeemed nationals next year!!

This doesnt necessarily mean that it will be at Epcot. Disney was at Houston this year, believe it or not. At Dean's reception after this year's kickoff he thanked all the people who make FIRST possible, and he did indeed thank the CEO of Disney who was there. He mentioned that even though nationals would not be in Epcot, that Disney is still heavily involved.

So, maybe it is indeed a 5-yr contract for Epcot. But it could also just mean that Disney is committed to help support FIRST. Who knows... we'll just have to wait and see. :p

please!.. please!.. pleeeaaase!!! be at Disney next year!!:D

Overall, I enjoyed Epcot more than Houston mainly because of the atmosphere provided (thanks to Disney) and the attitude's of the people from FIRST Robotics teams. At Epcot, it was a huge party for the three days at competition. There were things to do between matches, it was easier to make friends, and enjoy everyone's company. But at Houston, there were limitations and restrictions to what students could, and could not do at the stadium (this is probably due to the new security protocols to help provide a safe environment for the competitions from 9-11). I guess the main point is that there was not a lot of excitement than what was provided at Epcot from last year.

ummmm yeah whoever said that EPCOTS bathrooms were cool i think not... they were very hot. Also, they did stink everything stank that sat out in the sun festering for hours at a time. Does anyone have a picture of these ramps? I was not there and I am having trouble visualizing them.


Cory

I don't have pictures of the ramps, but they were concrete with a series of "switchbacks" to get between ground level and the below-ground-level floor of the Astrodome. The ramps were steep enough to make moving some teams' robot carts fairly serious work. If FIRST goes back to Houston, I suspect a number of teams will be using lighter weight carts and wagons for moving their robots than they had this year.

Dark, dingy, and gray was the name of the game here.

I agree! In the tents at EPCOT there were colorful signs all over the place. How many vets remember the huge, colorful pit signs?
Definitely no comparison to this year's signs.

I remember the colorful pit signs... I remember taking one, too... Sanjay Newton, our captain from 2001 has a "Newton" sign in his dorm room from then.

I didnt go to houston this year but, security at the central Fl regional was just as bad as houston sounds. At ucf, we were bringing food to our grive team and got stopped at the entrance. So we walked around the back of the building and right into the pits. Also, we had left giant tubs of gum and candy at the security desk and at the end of the day, only a half a tub was left. For next year, i think that security definitaly needs to be addressed. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go back to EPCOT FIRST. There is tons of room for them to move everthing at little so it isn;t as cramped.

Either go back to EPCOT or we should get free Segways and good food to survive Houston...

Simple EH?

I remember the colorful pit signs... I remember taking one, too

Yeah, two years ago when we won our division some guys from our team took one of our division signs. Then last year my friend and I took some signs as souvenirs. It's a tradition!

I agreee with brad

Before I start, here's a disclaimer: a)this is my first year having gone to nationals, b)I am a native of Texas, and c) our team was NOT on the FIRST plan for stuff....

Here's my 2 cents:

a) Come on, guys, a bit of exercise can't be that bad. I made the walk back and forth up from the astrodome pits up to the stands where I was taping oh, about a hundred or so give or take another hundred times and IT AIN'T THAT BAD!

b) About the venue: the stadium is simply like every other monster sports arena in the world- the concessions are and always will be incredibly overpriced. It's a big place and they have to pay for it somehow, and since ya can't bring in outside food and drink (-officially-), they can charge whatever they want. There'r water fountains......

c) There was plenty of stuff within walking distance (within 0.5 mi) of the stadium where those complaining about b could go to get all the fast food they could possibly want, or groceries and other stuff...

d) About being so split up... what did you expect for an event that was thrown together in 4 months, with an economic downturn (our team could not have afforded the FIRST package deal, so we settled for the Motel 6 about four blocks from the stadium - we were the only team there). There's only so much you can do in that amount of time, and many companies etc make their reservations WAY in advance.

e) True, Six Flags Astroworld sucks. Maybe they should hold it in Dallas/Fort Worth, where Six Flags Over Texas is (way cooler). Never been to Great Adventure or whatever that supposed great one is.... But I've been to disney, and it ain't all that great......

f) Houston was a cool and fun venue, all ya needed was to look around. Saw more smiles there than not, so someone was having fun.........

g) The bathrooms at the basement level of the astrodome aren't exactly designed for public high volume use....the public usually doesn't get to go down to the floor level. They were pretty dingy, but so are most public bathrooms in fifty year old stadiums.....

Okay, that's enough. I think it's pretty obvious what my vote is....

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos....
http://first891.topcities.com
CHAMPIONSHIP PIX POSTED!!!!!!!!

Amen brother!


listen to this guy, he is exactly right.

Ive been to FIRST championships at EPCOT twice - there is an aspect to EPCOT that is not obvious, and it really has nothing to do with the competition itself.

For the robotics competition, you get the most FIRST impact at your 1st regional - that is where you find out what your bot can do - that is where you meet the other teams for the FIRST time and see what they have done - the regionals are ALL about FIRST.

The Championship at EPCOT is more like an award for the students and adults on the team - it is an EXTRAVAGENT gesture on behalf of your sponsors to send you to WDW.

you cant overlook the impact this has on students - esp kids who have never been to WDW before - most students work very hard to be on the team - EPCOT is a huge reward for their efforts.

Not to mention teams that come from other countries to the Championship - WDW is a huge incentive to be on the team for them.

I have to say some of the best times Ive had with students and other adults on FIRST teams was at WDW- and it was not at the competitions itself. Hanging out in the parks, catching a meal somewhere when you can unwind for a bit

Sitting by the pool at the Sports Complex on Saturday night with a fellow engineer, talking about the need for more teams in our home town, what it would take to form new teams, could the 2 of us start a new team on our own?

and then going back home and working on those things.

There is something about being at WDW that you cant put your finger on, and you cant put a price tag on - but once you have experienced it you really miss it when its gone.

I hope its not gone for good.

When you have to coordinate scouting for teams and you have to have your scouters in the pits and in the stands, it's a nightmare. What should have taken me 5 mins to set up scouting for people, took me the whole day. The walk to the pits and back along with the scouters having to come back was hell on them. The drivers were lucky. They did it only 4 times a day. I did it on average of 4 times per 2 hours.

b) About the venue: the stadium is simply like every other monster sports arena in the world- the concessions are and always will be incredibly overpriced. It's a big place and they have to pay for it somehow, and since ya can't bring in outside food and drink (-officially-), they can charge whatever they want. There'r water fountains......

c) There was plenty of stuff within walking distance (within 0.5 mi) of the stadium where those complaining about b could go to get all the fast food they could possibly want, or groceries and other stuff...

I agree. In Houston you can't have teams together and have fun. That's why it's not as good as Disney.

You mean that the people weren't nice, they had dirty facilities, bad rides, and bad food at WDW? No? Yeah, that's what I though....

Quote:

f) Houston was a cool and fun venue, all ya needed was to look around. Saw more smiles there than not, so someone was having fun.........

There's a difference between having fun and having an overall great experience, one that I didn't have at Houston.

The guest bathrooms were the same!

I'm holding it against Houston that the Champs were one of the worst. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS THEIR FACILITIES THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS. They couldn't handle us as well as Disney. Period. And they charged us more than Disney ever did. I payed for less at Disney and more at Houston. I have the right to complain about the walk if it hinders my ability to do my work. I have the right to complain about the prices since I had to buy the sub-par food. FIRST has gotten my teams hard earned money and Houston didn't turn out anything but excellent. If I pay for over $5000 in registration for an event, I want the best I can get.

What I don't understand is why some people are willing to spend more at worse facilities while the rest of us don't want to. I'm not frugal, but when I am given the cold shoulder at Six Flags and pay outrageous sums of money for food at Reliant, I have the right to want to change venues.

If there is one positive thing about Houston it is this: It makes all of those who wanted to leave Disney want to go back.

I hope you have the chance to experience a Championship at Epcot. If you you do, it is very likely that you will find, as most of us do, that there is no comparison in the overall experience between an event at Epcot and the one in Houston. The event at Epcot just has an atmosphere and color that would be hard to come up with anywhere else in the world.

I have been to seven Championships at Epcot, and while there was more of a thrill to the non-competition aspects of the first one than the seventh, it continued to be a place where students and adults alike could have good, worry-free fun. If you stay in the "All Star" hotels, there are swimming pools, arcades, snacks, and interteam comraderia available right there. Probably a majority of the teams stay at All Star Sports/Music/Movies which are within walking distance of each other. Having lots of teams together just adds to the FIRST experience, beyond the competition itself.

There is transportation between the parks and hotels any time the parks are open. The food which comes with the team packages, while not great, is certainly ok. You have a number of choices, and get a desert with each lunch. If you have the time, you can use the meal tickets at some of the eateries at Epcot and the other WDW parks.

I am not a Disney emplyee, nor do I own Disney stock. It has just been my experience that WDW is a great place for an event like the FIRST Championship, and it is unlikely that anything can be done with two sports stadiums, hotels scattered around a city, and a substandard amusement park that can provide an experience as good. I do not intend to fault FIRST for the job they did in organizing the recent Championship. They had to put the event together in a short period of time, and under the circumstances, did the best they could.

I think the only thing FIRST could possibly do, that would be better than EPCOT - would be to charter a cruise ship, and have the championship be a 5 day cruise through the Bahamas :c)

Aw Ken.:rolleyes:
The Championship should be about the competition first and a vacation second. That's why I was one of the few people who actually liked Houston. For the sake of the competition.
I thought Epcot was a terrible place for the competition. I can't remember much about the actually competition than I do about the park and the heat and the struggle to find someplace to sit. That's not the way the championship event should be remembered.

Would you like to know if Chuck Yeager is on crack?

Instead of grego's aggressive viewpoint, I believe Chuck was looking at this from the standpoint that American lives would be saved if such technology were employed.

He's a career military man. As such, war and conflict have become permanently embedded into his life. He's seen a lot of his friends die on the battlefield. If he believed the use of robotic weaponry could save the lives of thousands of American soldiers, I can understand why he would advocate the use of such technology in battle.

I am sure his comments in Houston made many of the people in attendance cringe, however, especially Dean, who wants us to use our talents to build up the world's infrastructure, not destroy it.

I personally think Chuck's comments were out of line with the spirit of FIRST, but I can understand where he was coming from.

To make this post on-topic, here's my opinions on both Houston and EPCOT:

Houston:

Great weather! Low humidity - EPCOT is unbearable.

The area around the Galleria mall provided lots of entertainment and eating opportunities for the team

Great venue - good sightlines, comfortable seating. AIR CONDITIONING.

Spacious, well-lit pit area

Better indoor lighting overall - great for picture takers

The ramps were tedious, but the distance between pit and arena never interfered with our pre-match preparations in the pit, although we never had to make any major time consuming repairs to the robot.

Six Flags was dirty and showed its age, but most people on our team enjoyed their time there.

I didn't get the feeling that I was at an international competition. It felt more like a "super regional". I guess I'm just used to the Disney experience.

EPCOT:

The Disney venue had that true "Championship Event" feel that made it stand out above all regional competitions.

Safe - More freedom for kids - We stayed at a Disney hotel, and the adults normally turned the kids loose to experience Disney without chaperones. The great transportation system and safety of the park made this possible. It was difficult to do that in Houston.

Better pit/arena logistics

Einstein Field had its own stadium and spectator area built around it which gave it an aura of mystique and importance. It wasn't just another field in the middle of four identical divisional fields like it was in Houston. Plus the final light show/audiovisual extravaganza on Einstein at EPCOT was always a sight to behold (except for that Mandy Moore thing.....). I missed that in Houston.


Overall, I'd prefer to bear the heat and go back to EPCOT, but only if FIRST provides more and improved lighting/spectator seating/cooling at the playing fields.

It wasn't a nightmare - I was one of the two people coordinating scouting for my team and a 5-minute walk back and forth ain't bad at all. Twice an hour seems a little excessive. I was coordinating scouting the thursday and coordinating three video angles the rest of the time, yet none of it took any longer than was deemed necessary. I'll admit that cell phones helped achieve this (about 1/3 of the team had them), but it was good exercise. It's not like for scouting you have to carry anything heavier than a laptop or notebook, anyhow...

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos....
http://first891.topcities.com

I would really like to see nationals go back to Epcot... They only thing I would say for Epcot was make another playing field and make the stands bigger... I think this year nationals was way to big of an area for that amount of teams... If you want to have nationals in Houston than I say let almost double the teams that were there this year...

If you did, you would have to move back to Kokomo and go back to work at Delphi to make up for the money you would lose :D :p


----

Ok, Ive heard some rumors that if the Championships go back to Houston, they have fixed some of the problems (most of the complaints on here) to make it run smoother....heck we can't expect a place to understand how we FIRSTers work especially the first year. It will improve. Trust me. The only left for you to complain about is Six Flags, but who cares. Having fun and hanging out with your buddies from other teams should cancel all of that out anyway.

i agree with almost everybody here. EPCOT was SO much better than Houston. The food, environment, excitement, atmosphere and entertainment. however, we're all complaing about how bad Houston was, and how we wish that FIRST would go back to Disney World. I was wondering if there was anything we could do to help influence the people deciding where to hold the nationals at? is there anyway to directly contact dean? maybe we can start an online petition? just an idea...

i know what im going to say is going to be basically already on this thread but what the heck.. here we go:

I would have to say that I, at first, thought that Epcot was better. and i mostly thought of that because the walk from the pits to the fields were not desirable at all.. but you kinda get used to it after a while. i do wish there could be a different way to get robots there, but since no one has found a way to get "beamed" to another place in the matter of 2 seconds then the walk is mandatory.
People complained about pricing at houston, but how different was the pricing at Epcot? i know that my team found out that, at epcot, if you just bought your drink, chips, main food item, and dessert all seperately that it was actually cheaper than the meal plan they had going. So i dont think that the price of food is a big deal.. if it means that much then take the team to a grocery and sit in the van.. or go to a fast food restaurant.
I really liked the space that there was at Houston. instead of trying to find a spot in the bleachers at epcot you had your choice of seats. sure it got pretty spread out at finals but again that also happened at epcot.. so now you have the spread out feeling without the sun or rain or whatever weather florida is having at the time.
My team didnt go to six flags but from what i thought, epcot wasnt that great either.. there were the lines and the buses came pretty early and the food was sometimes cold, and again there were people everywhere.
so basically i wouldnt mind if nationals stayed at houston. it was more spacious but yet maybe a little too spread out.. but whatever FIRST decides im sure they will think hard on their decision.

I agree with Koko Ed.

I loved Houston about a million times more than Disney. Plus, it was a larger venue, so potentially, more teams could compete, with more room in the pits, stands, etc. for additional teams.

Disney was cramped, hot, humid, and was boring.

And we did not have to listen to annoying Disney pop stars either.

Besides Disney is educational!!!! (At least EPCOT)

The competition at EPCOT had much more spirit in the air...

I had three great years at EPCOT and would lick to see it return. Houston seemed to shut down well before 10:00, who is done for the night by than? As far as the comp went, it just wasn't as exciting. There didn't seem to be as much enthusiasm in the air. I believe maybe with some work over the years it could be as good as EPCOT, but I'm skeptical of that. If they can't have it at EPCOT next year, I'd like to see Nationals move around a bit. Maybe some day in WI, or not?

If we cant have the championship at EPCOT anymore, can we at least have a regional there? :c)

It depended on which bathrooms you used. There were some near the tents that were porter potties and those sucked! But the 4 stall things they had near the picnic tables and the food lines were indeed nice. Occasionally smelly, but they were a lot cooler than the hot Florida sun...
speaking of that - did anyone notice how not nice the weather was in Houston? Where was the nice southern warmth and sun?

When the competition was at epcot, there was more than one park to visit, so it split up all the people that were there so lines were more tolerable and the disney fast passes helped a lot too! you were able to go on soooo many more rides.
I was able to go on about 4 rides a night at 6 flags. :(
Also the team party was much better because they only allowed FIRST people in to them. The team party this year was a mixture of tourists in Houston and then FIRST people. This was worsened by the fact that it was the first day 6 Flags opened. Lines were horrible! I thought the team party last year stunk, but this year was just plain horrible. At least the food last year didn't make me vomit into one of the park's nasty digusting bathrooms. They were so filthy and dirty!

NOT nice? I thought it was beautiful in Houston.

Humidity is an evil thing.

When you come from frigid NH where every season is winter and you're expecting heat... well, not in Houston.
You can have nice weather without humidity.

I thought it was very hott... But I'm from New England... Coming from a day with 30 degree weather...

I loved with weather in Houston. It was way better than the 30-40 degree temparatures and rain that we were getting in Joy-zee. :D

Epcot rocks, Disney bring us back
 

I believe that Epcot was like ten times better than Houston. Reasons being that:

1. Food was better. :)
2. More to do there, such as the parks and downtown Disney
3. Walking or bus distances to every park.
4. Bus rides were shorter and not as packed because there were so many buses available.
5. The price was better to pay for food down in Epcot than Houston
6. No long distances from pit to arena.
7. Fast food was closer
8. We were there longer so, there was more time to have fun

The list could go on, but these are just some of the basics, that made Epcot alot more interesting and enjoyable.

Now Houston had one thing going for us, as Team 303, the rooms were larger. That was it. The pits were not larger, it just seemed that way, cause of the size of the stadium. Also there was no "real" spot to plug in our batteries during the finals. So we could have fresh batteries for our matches. i believe that reliant park was just to big for our steadily growing organization. Although we filled up a good amount of the space we still need more people for a stadium like that one. But these are my opinions and I just wish that Disney could bring us back to Epcot.

It seems to me as if this thread has turned into an attack on Houston by one person then a counterattack on EPCOT by another, so on, and so on. I may have interpreted the title of the thread wrong, but I thought it to mean which one do you like more, not who can can try to point out the disadvantages of each place, and then argue about it incessantly.

That said, I cant comment on Houston because I wasnt there, however, I liked EPCOT beacuse of its excellent transportation system, hotel packages that are all near each other with lots of activities near by, good after competition entertainment, relatively decent food for a semi reasonable price. The one thing I didnt like too much about EPCOT was the severe lack of seating inside the tents, which made it almost impossible to find a seat if your team wasnt in a match on that field. Also, Einstein was incredibly hot, but theres really not much that can be done about that :D

Cory