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DCaldwell05BCP 13-04-2003 23:58

FIRST On A Disturbing Path
 
*The following post is my opinion only, not that of Team 991 as a whole.*

This year was my second year participating in FIRST and I must say that I have never had more fun in my entire life. The competetion was fun and I enjoyed to the many different people I met at the competetion. I hope to enjoy many more years participating in FIRST as a student and maybe even as a mentor.

However, I noticed a very disturbing trend taking place in FIRST this year, something that I don't notice last year. It all began at the Arizona Regional. Mr. Sanghi (who I thank for helping bring FIRST to Arizona) was announcing various scholarships. There were several scholarships totalling a few thousand dollars each. However, there was one scholarship that was larger then the rest. Forty thousand dollars if my memory serves me right, ten times larger then the ones mentioned before..... and it was only avalible to those of Hispanic heritage. That means no people of European, African, or Asian descent could apply for this scholarship. I did not believe that FIRST would offer (or advertise) a scholarship like this. I thought FIRST would be above segregating and excluding students because of their heritage. This would not be the end however. Going on to San Jose, this trend continued. FIRST seemed to be overly concerned with their image and with diversity. At the Nationals in the opening video, the majority of people speaking in the video were minorities. I believe that diversity will come naturally and that you can't force it, but FIRST obviously doesn't agree with me. FIRST obviously wants to be seen as Politically Correct and seems to be less concerned with educating and inspiring all students and just interested in educating and inspiring students with a certain skin color.

The most disturbing event was the appearance of Jesse Jackson at the Nationals. Jesse Jackson is pure scum and there is no doubt it about. Jackson uses extortion to rob corporations of billions under the guise of using the funds to help minorities when most of the money ends up in the hands of his friends and himself. Jackson has been under the investigation of the IRS and has openly admitted to having affairs with other women and has fathered an illegimate child. Jackson paid the mother of this child to keep the story quiet.

When I saw Mr. Jackson, I was worried about FIRST. Jesse Jackson is not above showing up at events with media uninvited and unannounced. I would not be surprised if FIRST had no idea that Jackson was coming. However, a question arose in my mind: Is Jesse Jackson extorting FIRST for money by threatening to defame FIRST and accuse them of being rascist? If Jackson is extorting FIRST (just like he has extorted many of FIRST's sponsors) for money in the name of minorities? These are serious questions that we FIRST teams must answer. FIRST cannot be associated with people like Jesee Jackson. FIRST is in danger of becoming a political special interest group on the same level with Jackson's Rainbow Coalition.

FIRST can change its path and reject these policies. FIRST can embrace all students, regardless of race, and FIRST can be about Robots, not about politics.

Madison 14-04-2003 00:07

Re: FIRST On A Disturbing Path
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DCaldwell05BCP
FIRST seemed to be overly concerned with their image and with diversity. At the Nationals in the opening video, the majority of people speaking in the video were minorities. I believe that diversity will come naturally and that you can't force it, but FIRST obviously doesn't agree with me. FIRST obviously wants to be seen as Politically Correct and seems to be less concerned with educating and inspiring all students and just interested in educating and inspiring students with a certain skin color.

Be aware that to some, this sounds a lot like you don't believe those minorities were qualified to be doing whatever it is they were doing.

I know that's probably not your intent, but your message can be interpreted that way. I don't know that FIRST has gone to any special length to appear politically correct, except that part of its mission to provide new opportunities to people who wouldn't otherwise have them. That's what being a minority often means, right? Being in a minority gives the plurality an excuse to deny you opportunity. FIRST tries to change that.

Quote:

Jesse Jackson is not above showing up at events with media uninvited and unannounced. I would not be surprised if FIRST had no idea that Jackson was coming.
Jesse Jackson visited the pit of the team I'd been working with and they were aware he'd be doing so in advance. (They being the team.)

They were aware he was coming. Beyond that, I can't speak with any authority.

EDIT: Parenthesis added for clarity.

Chris Nowak 14-04-2003 00:15

Political debates arent really a specialty of mine, or of FIRST. What you have stated their is your own political view of the situation. I really have no firm opinion on this issue, but I think you may be being a bit close minded about this. Wouldnt it be a waste for FIRST to reject $40,000 for a student, no matter who it is, just to prevent it from going to waste? Last I checked, FIRST didnt control who offers these things.

This is like the debate on affirmative action. Isnt it just another form of racism. If you look at minorities as a whole, I think that Affirmative action is right, the same goes for this. Right now, the minorities do have people working against them, subconciously or conciously. Average incomes of minorties and proabilities for them to go to college are lower than for white americans. So why shouldnt we give them a boost? That is the reasoning behing these types of things. I know I was pretty pissed when a kid I knew was admitted to U of M and I wasnt, he was half peruvian but had a lower GPA and ACT than me, and I didnt get in. However, the system is probably necessary if Minorities are ever going to get ahead in america.

Now, to look on the flip side, and look at the individual members of a minority, it becomes a little more blurry. That kid I knew, he wasnt ever being discriminated against in the slightest way. Most people didnt even know he was half peruvian, he looks like he just got a tan....and financially, his family is paying for his whole tuition. He doesnt need stuff like this, even though its easy for him to get. Also, taking this from the individual standpoint, in America, we preach equality, so shouldnt we practice it in everything we do?

I personally think that this is OK, FIRST is not the ones behind the scholarships, but without FIRST there would be no scholarships, and no 40 grand at all. I dont think its a move by FIRST to appear more diverse.

[edit] and Jesse Jackson? So what if he wants to come, its his freedom. Its not like first is endorsing him and all he does. IMO, FIRST invites everyone to come, they dont charge admission. I dont think thisis a big issue.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 00:16

Re: FIRST On A Disturbing Path
 
Quote:

Be aware that to some, this sounds a lot like you don't believe those minorities were qualified to be doing whatever it is they were doing.
THAT IS NOT MY INTENTION. I am confident that it will not be interrupted that way because I know that those who participate in FIRST are above that. You all know what I am trying to say.

Quote:

Jesse Jackson visited the pit of the team I'd been working with and they were aware he'd be doing so in advance.
I hope that FIRST does not invite Al Sharpton and David Duke next.

Like I said before, Jackson is not someone that FIRST should be associating with.

ngreen 14-04-2003 00:20

Don't worry so much. Everything is politics these days. You can't expect to keep a organization like this running without politics. You did see both the texas governor and speaker of the house at the event. The world we live in is much more political than you like to think and for the FIRST to make the changes they wish to they have to embrace the politics that go along. As to the minority thing, have you looked into the engineering field. It is dominated by white males. FIRST is meant to inspire people who would not normally enter the engineering field aka minorities and women. That does not however leave us WASP behind the pack. We have already made it in the engineering world and their are many awards based on your merit. I'm going to Kansas State on free tuition, books, and fees just on that. The experience of FIRST is way more thrilling than any scholarship money could be. Again, you can't forget that FIRST is all about inspiring the people that have not considered a technology field. Feel great that you have personally found a interest that you are able to pursue in college and will even without scholarship money.

Jesse Jackson's personal life has nothing to do with the inspiration he has given many people. If you saw the change in the pits when he walked through them, you would know what I mean as to inspiration.

And FIRST is not about robots, it is politics. Through competition I have seen every part of the political process. The most obvious is the continual lobbying that takes play throughout the pit area. By noon on saturday we could not see our table because of all the teams handouts. This is what FIRST is. It could be better but I haven't heard anyone complain about all the handouts.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 00:23

Quote:

Wouldnt it be a waste for FIRST to reject $40,000 for a student, no matter who it is, just to prevent it from going to waste? Last I checked, FIRST didnt control who offers these things.
I remember after 9/11 that Rudy Guiliani rejected a 10 million dollar check from a Saudi prince to the 9/11 victims fund after the prince blamed the 9/11 attacks after on Israel. God knows that New York could of used that money, but Guiliani knew that you can't just accept money from everybody.

I pose this question: What if someone got to together and offered a scholarship for white students only? What would happen? FIRST wouldn't advertise it because it is wrong to offer someone money just because they were born into a certain racial group. That is rascism.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 00:29

Quote:

Don't worry so much. Everything is politics these days. You can't expect to keep a organization like this running without politics. You did see both the texas governor and speaker of the house at the event. The world we live in is much more political than you like to think and for the FIRST to make the changes they wish to they have to embrace the politics that go along. As to the minority thing, have you looked into the engineering field. It is dominated by white males. FIRST is meant to inspire people who would not normally enter the engineering field aka minorities and women. That does not however leave us WASP behind the pack. We have already made it in the engineering world and their are many awards based on your merit. I'm going to Kansas State on free tuition, books, and fees just on that. The experience of FIRST is way more thrilling than any scholarship money could be. Again, you can't forget that FIRST is all about inspiring the people that have not considered a technology field. Feel great that you have personally found a interest that you are able to pursue in college and will even without scholarship money.
The governor of Texas and Speaker of the House were there as elected representatives of the people of Texas. They were representing the people of Texas at that FIRST event.

When many people saw Jackson, they were revolted. I saw many different reactions when he showed and I saw no reason for him to be there. He was there for himself and his own image.

Now, nobody wants FIRST to be the subject of the next O'Reilly Factor! lol.

Chris Nowak 14-04-2003 00:31

Quote:

Originally posted by DCaldwell05BCP
I remember after 9/11 that Rudy Guiliani rejected a 10 million dollar check from a Saudi prince to the 9/11 victims fund after the prince blamed the 9/11 attacks after on Israel. God knows that New York could of used that money, but Guiliani knew that you can't just accept money from everybody.

I pose this question: What if someone got to together and offered a scholarship for white students only? What would happen? FIRST wouldn't advertise it because it is wrong to offer someone money just because they were born into a certain racial group. That is rascism.


but what the heck is your motivation offering a scholarship for white students? White students are not underpriveleged on the whole. They are the dominating class in american society. I dont think they need more help.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 00:32

Jesse Jackson really has no place at Nats, IMO...

Historically, he's nothing more than a troublemaker (in the BAD, non "Martin Luther King, Jr." way)...

sevisehda 14-04-2003 00:36

You seem surprised by the fact there were scholarships that targeted specific people. As a white, middle class, male looking for college 2 years ago I did a little research. At a certain website i di a search for myself for scholarships i got 27 results. After changing myself to a minority I got 71 results. And as a female minority 94. Needless to say I complained about it, and once I got to college joked about it with all my other white middle class male classmates. We plan on starting a white middle class male scholarship fund in a few years(j/k).

There is currently a case in supreme court in which some people are sueing michigan state for giving favor to minorities. If they rule in favor of the people more than likely there will be a domino effect to these scholarships.

I've been very happy to see the number of scholarships increase alot over the past few years. Maybe with all these colleges getting teams there will be active recruiting like there are for football and basketball.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 00:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Nowak
but what the heck is your motivation offering a scholarship for white students? White students are not underpriveleged on the whole. They are the dominating class in american society. I dont think they need more help.
Just because your white doesn't mean your rich. Scholarships for the underpriveleged are what we need, not scholarships for a certain race.

tenfour 14-04-2003 00:37

I agre with the first post here. I hope that FIRST doesn't turn out to be a flaming liberal stinkhole like so many educational organizations have. I am white. Does that mean that I? don't get money for college?

I seems to me that racial specific scolarships like the one offered (now supported by "civil rights" leaders) is what was fought so hard to abolish in the south just a few decades ago, just reversed.

FIRST is great organization.....but its not political.

At FIRST, our only colors are red or blue. And we are only those for two minutes!

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 00:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
Jesse Jackson really has no place at Nats, IMO...

Historically, he's nothing more than a troublemaker (in the BAD, non "Martin Luther King, Jr." way)...

Amen to that.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 00:38

Quote:

but what the heck is your motivation offering a scholarship for white students? White students are not underpriveleged on the whole. They are the dominating class in american society. I dont think they need more help.
Are you saying that all white students have middle-income, 2 parent families with no problems? Please tell me that you don't honestly believe what you just said...

It's should not be a race issue at all, despite what the "reverend" Jessie Jackson would have you believe. Scholarship money of this type should go to students of low-income, broken, or challenged families--of ANY race.




I'm actually revolted that JJ showed up, knowing his history when it comes to using race to gain leverage in political/financial schemes that get their power from short-sighted, overly-emotional, idealist people. The best thing to do in this situation, in my opinion, would be to ignore him...

sanddrag 14-04-2003 00:38

Let's all remember that when the minorities begin to get overpriviledged, the majorities begin to become the minorities. I don't mean to say this in any racist, discriminant or unfair way. I like to be as fair and equal as possible. However, who's to say that one race should get a bigger scholarship just because there are fewer of their kind? To me, that is going against the majority.

Oh, why does it all go back to the issue of money?

Madison 14-04-2003 00:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Nowak
Average incomes of minorties and proabilities for them to go to college are lower than for white americans. So why shouldnt we give them a boost? That is the reasoning behing these types of things.
Well, it wouldn't hurt for the white folks to stop creating conditions that make such a dichotomy exist, either.

Some folks think affirmative action type programs are reverse discrimination. Some think they're good at providing opportunities to people who don't get them by circumstance. Or, it could be that the white folks are trying to make everyone forget the oppression they created in the first place by throwing minorities a bone and implementing affirmative action. It's certainly the best way to maintain the status quo without saying, "Hey, we deserve this more than you, but we don't want you to make a fuss about it."

It's all a matter of perspective and interpretation, I guess. It gets messy when the thoughts and feelings of entire groups are in question.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 00:41

I am white, and I am a minority in my school (~65% African-American, 35% other), but I won't get any minority scholarships.

Joe Matt 14-04-2003 00:41

I feel that this is more of an opinion thread on current politics than FIRST. Saying that JJ is 'scum' and then saying FIRST is responsable for it is sad.

Your comments boarderline racest. They remind me of the southern Republican ads of the early 90s where they said that minorities didn't deserve jobs that they were given high up.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 00:45

Quote:

Some folks think affirmative action type programs are reverse discrimination. Some think they're good at providing opportunities to people who don't get them by circumstance. Or, it could be that the white folks are trying to make everyone forget the oppression they created in the first place by throwing minorities a bone and implementing affirmative action. It's certainly the best way to maintain the status quo without saying, "Hey, we deserve this more than you, but we don't want you to make a fuss about it."
History has proven that throwing money at people who complain will not solve problems. It's socially equivalent to treating the symptoms, not the cause. One's life does not begin when they go to college; the "opportunity" with which minorities should be endowed should come at earlier stages in their life. If they are not qualified by the time they get to college to, in fact, attend college without a preference because of their race, they should not be admitted. This is not to say, however, that programs during the FIRST (get it?) stages of their education would be out of line or innefective.

It comes down to this: Racism is not about money anymore unless you are someone like Jessie Jackson; it is about a deep-seeded social divide that is perpetuated by those who seek to CONTINUE to derive power from its propagation (Jessie Jackson).

Chris Nowak 14-04-2003 00:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
Are you saying that all white students have middle-income, 2 parent families with no problems? Please tell me that you don't honestly believe what you just said...


No, all white families do not have middle income, two parent families. They do have problens. But they are not discriminated against at all as a whole. Minorities as a whole do have it worse off than Whites, because we are dominant, and we do discriminate, whether it be consciously or subconciously. If we want equality for the groups on a whole we need to bring the minorities forward in some way, cuz its not happening right now. This is one of those ways.

I'm certainly not saying you restrict all scholarships to being racialy biased toward minoritys.

Arent there a lot of scholarships for the underpriveleged as well?

Chris Nowak 14-04-2003 00:50

Quote:

Originally posted by M. Krass
Well, it wouldn't hurt for the white folks to stop creating conditions that make such a dichotomy exist, either.

Some folks think affirmative action type programs are reverse discrimination. Some think they're good at providing opportunities to people who don't get them by circumstance. Or, it could be that the white folks are trying to make everyone forget the oppression they created in the first place by throwing minorities a bone and implementing affirmative action. It's certainly the best way to maintain the status quo without saying, "Hey, we deserve this more than you, but we don't want you to make a fuss about it."

It's all a matter of perspective and interpretation, I guess. It gets messy when the thoughts and feelings of entire groups are in question.

Good point. This issue isnt black and white, in fact, it may be one of the most grey issues of this time. We are, in a way, negatively affecting the minorities because we are paying so much attention to this dichotomy(with scholarships and the like).

I gotta go to sleep now. This is gonna be a huge topic by morning. Post count went from 8 to 20 in a couple of minutes.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 00:57

Quote:

. This issue isnt black and white, in fact, it may be one of the most grey issues of this time. We are, in a way, negatively affecting the minorities because we are paying so much attention to this dichotomy(with scholarships and the like).
Exactly...

All I'm saying is that this will not solve the problem. Sure, it will help a few "minorities" get a job, but will their peers have jobs? Will they have a better shot as a whole to actually SUCCEED instead of getting paid to ALMOST succeed?

From what I can see, FIRST does not have an underrepresentation of minorities at all. I also see that it is a much better way to CREATE SUCCESS than by compensating failure when it comes to the progressing of minorities nationwide. If Jessie Jackson really cared about the plight of African Americans, he would be throwing money at predominantly black high schools in order to encourage their participation in FIRST Robotics competitions and the like.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 01:03

Quote:

Originally posted by JosephM
I feel that this is more of an opinion thread on current politics than FIRST. Saying that JJ is 'scum' and then saying FIRST is responsable for it is sad.

Your comments boarderline racest. They remind me of the southern Republican ads of the early 90s where they said that minorities didn't deserve jobs that they were given high up.

Your comments are ignorant and misinformed. They are also very poorly stated. I did not say FIRST is responsible for JJ's reputation. JJ is responsible for JJ.

This thread is about FIRST and I hope that it stays that way.

sanddrag 14-04-2003 01:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
I am white, and I am a minority in my school (~65% African-American, 35% other), but I won't get any minority scholarships.
I believe there is more white staff in my school than students. I think only about 20 of 1100 students are white like me. The rest are about 60% Armenian, 30% Asian, and 10% other.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 01:08

I'd like to see these kinds of quotas in the NBA: 12% black, 80% white, 8% other.

Yeah...That's what I thought :(

I'd also like to know why my middle-eastern friends cannot get minority scholarships. And my Asian friends as well...Aren't they minorities?

sanddrag 14-04-2003 01:13

I think what this all boils down to is that the topic of minorities is all about relativity.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 01:16

Well...classifying someone as being either a "minority" or not a "minority" is racism plain and simple. Don't try to call it something else. If you want to defend it, you must defend the racist aspects of it as if they were not a bad thing--which you have the complete right to do.

To me, racism (in all of its forms) serves one purpose: gaining political or economic power. We do not need such things gumming up FIRST's gears....

MikeDubreuil 14-04-2003 01:32

I have to congradulate the poster for starting this controversial topic without a flame war blowing back at himself. That's very difficult in this extreme liberal crowd. Anywho...

I think it's great that Jesse Jackson was at nationals. As much as I hate every view that he has, he is a very respected man. FIRST needs as much publicity it can possible get. Jesse Jackson is a very publicized figure and as such should be welcomed with open arms to the FIRST community.

Would you think the Pope coming to see FIRST would be bad if you were not Roman Catholic?

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 01:45

Quote:

Would you think the Pope coming to see FIRST would be bad if you were not Roman Catholic?
I'm not saying JJ shouldn't be allowed to come...

However, he shouldn't be allowed to bribe FIRST into doing whatever he wants them to...

sevisehda 14-04-2003 03:06

This has gotten to politcal. If you noted I ended my white middle class male scholarship line with "j/k" which means joke. The point is if there were a scholarship for only people of european descent jessi jackson would be the first to protest. In my view its the same as a scholarship for a minority.

If the purpose is to help someone who is "underprivelaged" then make the requirement the parents income is less than X amount. I know plently on people at school who worked very hard in High School and could of used a few extra bucks but they weren't even able to apply to alot because they were white.

But in truth isn't anyone who doesn't participate in FIRST underprivelaged.(my attempt at lightning the mood in here).

tenfour 14-04-2003 03:39

Thanks!

As I said, at FIRST, we are two colors: red and blue.

WakeZero 14-04-2003 04:14

Can everyone just become colorblind so we can continue having some fun competing robots?

Just wondering, because I thought FIRST was bigger than all this :confused:

Koko Ed 14-04-2003 07:59

Jesse Jackson, to me, is more of a politician than a freedom fighter like my grandfather the reverend Patterson down in Savannah, GA.
Jesse tries to keep himself in the spotlight as much as possible because he seeks political clout. Most of the battles he seek have already been fought and seem like repeated efforts. He needs to take the next step so African Americans can take the next step as well.
The NAACP seems unable to understand that African Americans need to brought into the loop of this technology savvy society or be in danger of being left behind. That would be required to do something that they would dread to do: bring accountability to the African American people themselves. We African Americans have to take up the reins and control our own destiny instead of waiting for others to save us.
FIRST is a big part of those opportunities. It opens up the real possibilities that science and technology are a real career path to take. Scholarships are just a part of that. The kids learn to work in a diverse environment ( I dare say the X-Cats are the most diverse team in FIRST) in a true business model and are given accountability for their actions to make responsible descions that affect the whole team. Much is learned from this and provides invaluble experience that they can take with them to college and when they enter the work force.

Mike Martus 14-04-2003 09:31

This thread
 
At this point reading the threads I would request that this thread be ended. I am requesting of the posters instead of just closing or deleting it.

I would like to see these boards do a little self governing. Here is the opportunity.

The path of this thread while important to free speech and opinions can cause many hard feelings and be disrespectful.

It has often been said " If you have nothing good to say about someone, say nothing".

Here is not the venue to discuss Mr. Jesse Jackson or other politicians that you may or may not like. All of us do some good and some bad in life. What is "Good" or "Bad" is dependent on where you are in life and your personal views as related to society.

In conclusion...

Please refrain from discussions that can cause more harm than good on these forums.

We ARE about the Community of FIRST lets make this idea of FIRST move to even higher levels in growth and organization.

KenWittlief 14-04-2003 09:49

A couple points on this:

scholarships: I dont see any problem with a person or organization giving a scholarship that is open only to one group of people. The key word here is GIVING!

the scholarship is a gift - its not something you earned, not something you competed for - its something that was freely given based on the desires of the giver.

We do this all the time. I am paying for my own childrens college out of my pocket - isnt that my form of giving them a scholarship? If I want to pay for my nephews tuition, or to give a scholarship to someone from my high school (Hutch Tech in Bflo, NY) is there something wrong with that? absolutely not!

FIRST itself IS discrimantory! FIRST is a program intended to inspire students to pursue careers in science and technology.

Who needs that inspiration the most? think about this for a minute before you answer. I live in Fairport, NY - a suburb of Rochester. This year I volunteered to be the sparkie engineer for the Fairport team because they had no EEs.

98% of the graduating students from Fairport HS go to college every year. Many students here ARE the children of engineers, business men, doctors, dentists, teachers, professors...

Do these kids from the suburbs NEED to be inspired?

Well yes - it does help and encourage them to be a part of the FIRST program - it does push then further than they might have gone on their own.

Last year I was on the X-cats team - A city magnet school in Rochester, NY. Many of the kids on the Xcats had never even MET an engineer before they joined the team. The difference in the level of impact that the Xcats has on the students lives is like night and day.

The REAL impact of FIRST is to reach students who would NOT goto college otherwise - who dont have the motivation, the self confidence, the resources to make it on their own. That is what FIRST is all about - not a robot building contest - its a life changing, career building endevour!

Who is Jesses Jackson? what does he have to do with FIRST?! What does Will Smith have to do with FIRST? Who is this Woody Flowers guy I see walking around all the time? What are his political motivations?

There is a biblical saying: those who are not against us, are with us. If someone comes to a FIRST event, and encourages and uplifts some or all of the students, then God bless him - I hope he comes back next year, and anyone else who has positive and encouraging things to say to us.

FIRST: playing with robots -> altering the future!

note to moderator: I was writing this while you posted your request to end the thread - sorry - didnt see it until I posted.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 11:44

I am glad that this has not turned into a flamefest. This is a testament the quality of people that post on Chief Delphi.

I feel that this is an issue that needs to be discussed and yes it is controversial. I wish we didn't need to discuss this, but it is something we can't ignore.

FIRST will attract controversy and will disenfranchise many if they allow more people like Jesse Jackson to attend their events and if they continue to push programs and scholarships that are availible only to people of a certain race.

This is important to us because we love FIRST so much. We do not want a media circus surrounding FIRST. We do not want talking-heads trashing FIRST. This is what will happen if FIRST allows people like Jesse Jackson to attend events.

DarkRedDragon 14-04-2003 12:16

what ever happened to just giving it to the most deserving people? a good student who has financial problems. My dad works, my mom cant, and i have 2 older siblings in college, i am in 9th grade, and i have a little sis in 4th grade. I work hard in school and yet politics effects everything now. The color blind idea seems good right about now. It seems that we should ignore this stuff and just try to live out our lives, becuase if you do your best, the chances are that someone will help you out.

indieFan 14-04-2003 13:06

Re: FIRST On A Disturbing Path
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DCaldwell05BCP

There were several scholarships totalling a few thousand dollars each. However, there was one scholarship that was larger then the rest. Forty thousand dollars if my memory serves me right, ten times larger then the ones mentioned before..... and it was only avalible to those of Hispanic heritage.

I'm rather curious who was offering this "Hispanic Heritage" scholarship. Was it offered by a specific college, or was it offered by a professional society targeting Hispanics, such as SHPE? If it was the latter, then it makes perfect sense that they would limit the qualifications for winning to someone of the target group.

I know that I would personally be annoyed if, as a member of SWE (Society of Women Engineers), SWE offered a scholarship and allowed men to apply for it. I have no problem with men being a part of SWE as it serves, in part, as a networking tool. However, since SWE is targeting women, the scholarship should remain within the target group.

Also, as a college student going for a second bachelor's degree, finding scholarships that apply to my situation is next to impossible. I am not an undergraduate student by the college's definition, but I am not a student working towards a specific master's or PhD degree. Therefore, if I read the fine print of all scholarships, I am not eligible. Do I see this as unfair? Sure. From a graduate/continuing education student, what makes me different from those working towards a specific degree that's a master's or PhD? In my mind, nothing other than the fact that my next degree will say Bachelor of Science. But the people that offer these scholarships have their requirements, and I don't meet them. Knowing this is the reality, however, I have instead looked into other options, such as Work Study programs and loans.

Just my thoughts,
indieFan

LizJJury 14-04-2003 13:20

All I know is that scholarships tend to be created by a group of people or a person. that person decides what they want their scholarship's requirements to be. so that one person makes lots of people gripe.......
personnally i would take each person on a case by case basis and look at money need, academics, classes, other students at that school, and all the basics. i would pretend that there was no such thing as different races or skin tones. if you look at everything but that persons race then you will be fair to everyone. the person who best desrves it will get it....whether it be a white, african american, native american, indian, chinese, ect.

i guess what i am trying to say is that a person who is intelligent, tries hard, gets pretty good grades....B and better, and is in need of that money should get it. NO ONE ELSE! if there are several than you should choose the person who needs it the most.

it is really hard to type out what i am thinking but i think that i am getting the basis of my message and feelings out.

KenWittlief 14-04-2003 13:29

Does it bother anyone that all of these scholarships we are talking about, are ONLY available to students who are active members of a FIRST team?!

is that fair to the other students in your high school?

if you follow the logic that is becoming prevelant in this thread, then these 'FIRST only' scholarships are not fair to non-FIRST students, and they should ALL be opened up a all high school students at all schools - Im sure there are many students at your high school who need these scholarships more than you do

and who did not have the time or energy to be on a FIRST team - maybe they had to spend more time on their studies - maybe they have jobs after school to earn money for college

they desirve to considered too -

Right?

[a scholarship is NOT a right or a prividedge - it is A GIFT! understand?]

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 14:02

Quote:

Does it bother anyone that all of these scholarships we are talking about, are ONLY available to students who are active members of a FIRST team?!
With all due respect, that is a moot point; one can choose to be on the robotics team, but one cannot choose his skin color...

Koko Ed 14-04-2003 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
With all due respect, that is a moot point; one can choose to be on the robotics team, but one cannot choose his skin color...
Believe you me, if I had the choice to change my skin color to get a job you'd bet I'd turn white to improve my chances.

KenWittlief 14-04-2003 14:16

how can you chose to be on a FIRST team - if your school doenst have one?

or if you need to spend all your time studying to keep your grades up?

or if you MUST have a job after school because you need the money?

'Choose' is a poor choice of words here. PLEASE PEOPLE - if someone wants to give away a scholarship [FREE MONEY] that is a good thing, no ANDs IFs XORS BUTs

people are free to give GIFTS to whomever they chose, for whatever reason they choose - what is the point in complaining about it?

Make the most of what you have and when you are rich and successful then YOU can give out scholarships to whoever YOU deem most worthy

OK?

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 14:26

Yes, people are free to do whatever they want with their money, but governments are not, and schools that use government funding for race-based scholarships are not just "giving of their own free will." It is also wrong for people like Jessie Jackson to threaten business and organizations if they don't do his bidding--whatever his cause may be.

KenWittlief 14-04-2003 14:31

Can someone please post the video of Jesse Jackson makeing threats against FIRST?

I wasnt at the Championship - I mustof missed one heck of an opening ceremony! %(

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 14:34

Knowing his history, why else would he be there?

Chris Nowak 14-04-2003 14:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
Knowing his history, why else would he be there?
perhaps to have fun and support what is all around a good program?

Wetzel 14-04-2003 14:38

Re: This thread
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Martus
At this point reading the threads I would request that this thread be ended. I am requesting of the posters instead of just closing or deleting it.

I would like to see these boards do a little self governing. Here is the opportunity.

The path of this thread while important to free speech and opinions can cause many hard feelings and be disrespectful.

It has often been said " If you have nothing good to say about someone, say nothing".

Here is not the venue to discuss Mr. Jesse Jackson or other politicians that you may or may not like. All of us do some good and some bad in life. What is "Good" or "Bad" is dependent on where you are in life and your personal views as related to society.

In conclusion...

Please refrain from discussions that can cause more harm than good on these forums.

We ARE about the Community of FIRST lets make this idea of FIRST move to even higher levels in growth and organization.

AIM and IRC are both available.
The first time around.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 14:46

Right now, FIRST is about robotics and Jessie Jackson is about racism....All that I'm saying is that they do not mix.

Koko Ed 14-04-2003 14:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
Right now, FIRST is about robotics and Jessie Jackson is about racism....All that I'm saying is that they do not mix.
Racism?
Do you even know what it is to be discriminated against?
Denying Jesse Jackson the right to come to an event is discrimination. This is America people are free to do as they please. If David Duke shows up on his own accord unfortunately he has the right to be there. It's a public event.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 14:54

He has every right to come, but he does not have the right to get his fingers into the inner workings of FIRST as an organization in order to promote his agenda. He's done it before to other organizations, and I'd hate to see it happen to FIRST.

Adam Y. 14-04-2003 14:54

Quote:

Racism?
Bleh this is starting to turn ugly. This is more about politics than robotics.

ComBBAT_Albrot 14-04-2003 14:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
He has every right to come, but he does not have the right to get his fingers into the inner workings of FIRST as an organization in order to promote his agenda. He's done it before to other organizations, and I'd hate to see it happen to FIRST.
Has he gotten involved with the inner workings? No.

Let's just leave it at that and listen to Mike. No more.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 15:00

That's what I'm trying to avoid!!!

If I ever said that JJ should not be allowed to come, I apologize. I won't apologize, however, or back down on the idea that JJ should not get away with repeating his historical practices against FIRST. It would just be awful!

Redhead Jokes 14-04-2003 15:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
That's what I'm trying to avoid!!!
*chuckle*


Adam Y. 14-04-2003 15:09

Quote:

If I ever said that JJ should not be allowed to come, I apologize. I won't apologize, however, or back down on the idea that JJ should not get away with repeating his historical practices against FIRST.
One last question what did he do to FIRST?? Then I am never looking at this topic again.

Caleb Fulton 14-04-2003 15:12

He hasn't done anything, yet, but neither had the guy walking into the bank while he pulls out a ski mask and a colt .45....

I'm not comparing JJ to a bank robber. I'm comparing him to his past practices.

Etbitmydog 14-04-2003 15:34

*my opinion

It is a statistic that 28% of white Americans have a college degree, 21% of black American's have a college degree, 11% of Hispanic American's have a college degree. Found this in my college newspaper. Do you notice the inequality?

I think that at some point, maybe in the near future that such things as Affirmative action should be taken away, and even scholarships for minorities should be gone, but RIGHT NOW? 7 more white American's go to college than blacks, 17 more than Hispanics.

I hope you see a reason why somebody would want to give this scholarship away. Especially to a Hispanic group. This scholarship was probably given targeting this issue. My GUESS is that you're saying that this person did not deserve this scholarship: you don't know this do you? MANY of these scholarships target FINANCIAL NEED in minority groups. I'd know because I've applied. Financial need that may have something to do with the fact that that culture was HISTORICALLY discriminated against. Because somebody's parents, parent's couldn't go to college could affect today's students.

Granted that giving a scholarship to a minority probably isn't fair, but it's a means of accelerating the equality amunst all groups. Until that time comes, to me it won't be disturbing. If it happens after that day comes, it will be disturbing.

This argument does seem to be a lot more about politics than FIRST. ]

On the last note

Quote:

Your comments are ignorant and misinformed. They are also very poorly stated. I did not say FIRST is responsible for JJ's reputation. JJ is responsible for JJ.
After I read your argument, I thought the same thing you said. Please read what you write before you publish it to make sure it's not on a borderline note. the only ignorant person here is you for saying that.

Brandon Martus 14-04-2003 16:09

Re: This thread
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Martus
I would like to see these boards do a little self governing. Here is the opportunity.
me too.

DCaldwell05BCP 14-04-2003 22:23

Re: Re: FIRST On A Disturbing Path
 
Quote:

Originally posted by indieFan
I'm rather curious who was offering this "Hispanic Heritage" scholarship. Was it offered by a specific college, or was it offered by a professional society targeting Hispanics, such as SHPE? If it was the latter, then it makes perfect sense that they would limit the qualifications for winning to someone of the target group.

I know that I would personally be annoyed if, as a member of SWE (Society of Women Engineers), SWE offered a scholarship and allowed men to apply for it. I have no problem with men being a part of SWE as it serves, in part, as a networking tool. However, since SWE is targeting women, the scholarship should remain within the target group.

Also, as a college student going for a second bachelor's degree, finding scholarships that apply to my situation is next to impossible. I am not an undergraduate student by the college's definition, but I am not a student working towards a specific master's or PhD degree. Therefore, if I read the fine print of all scholarships, I am not eligible. Do I see this as unfair? Sure. From a graduate/continuing education student, what makes me different from those working towards a specific degree that's a master's or PhD? In my mind, nothing other than the fact that my next degree will say Bachelor of Science. But the people that offer these scholarships have their requirements, and I don't meet them. Knowing this is the reality, however, I have instead looked into other options, such as Work Study programs and loans.

Just my thoughts,
indieFan

The organization was a Chicano group similar to the NAACP. I am sorry I do not remember the name off hand, but anybody at Phoenix who saw the opening ceremonies can testify to the fact that this scholarship was offered. It was made very clear by Mr. Sanghi that the scholarship was for those only of Hispanic Heritage.

I am glad to hear that the SWE also offers scholarships to men. That does not show race/gender bias on their part.

Amanda Morrison 14-04-2003 23:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb Fulton
He has every right to come, but he does not have the right to get his fingers into the inner workings of FIRST as an organization in order to promote his agenda. He's done it before to other organizations, and I'd hate to see it happen to FIRST.
Should we worry about this when the time comes?

FIRST has long encouraged public figures, corporate heads, and even members of the government to events. This is no different. Every person has a right to be there! This is our future we're talking about! Racism, prejudice, and injustice have nothing to do with FIRST events. So let's let this be - he was there, showing his support for the FIRST community... and let's leave it at that.

rbayer 15-04-2003 00:06

People have been complaining a lot about the degredation of the quality of both FIRST and CD for a while now. As Mike Martus pointed out earlier, this thread could be an excellent place for CD users to show that they do value the quality of CD and have the ability to self-govern. However, that doesn't seem to be happening, even after Brandon, whose word you all should take as Gospel when it comes to CD, made the same request, it was ignored as quickly as the original request.

As Wetzel said earlier, there is nothing preventing you from continuing this debate outside of CD. There are plenty of options out there for discussion.

Please people, don't force this thread to be closed forcefully. Do it yourselves.

AlbertW 15-04-2003 00:26

I think this thread has shown alot of restraint, especially for such a controversial topic. If you would like to see the boards do some self-governing, fine, but having every other post be someone saying that nobody else should post here seems a bit... counterproductive.

That being said, i'll chime in on the discussion. ;)

People that know me will recall this statement i'm about to make. I often make it in most discussions on stereotypes, and discrimination in general.

Humans evolved with the innate ability to discern between "its gonna eat me" and "yummy" - that is, its in our nature to categorize things.

Race is no different. We naturally categorize "us" and "them." As long as there is no bigger threat, the "them" will always be among humans, and discrimination/stereotypes cannot be prevented. Hell, I admit, I stereotype alot - asians are bad drivers (guilty as charged,) people you run into in a dark alley at 0300 hours are not to be trusted, etc. It's a human instinct - we use it to protect ourselves. If you're robbed 5 times in a row by a monkey, next time you meet a monkey, you're going to be a bit cautious. Likewise if you hear about people getting robbed by monkeys on the radio.

Anyway, I guess the whole point of this schpleel is that humans are naturally segregationist. There will always be people who are more advantaged, and people who are less advantaged. It's up to us to overcome that natural instinct and help eachother as much as possible.

I recently recieved a $100 scholarship from a society of chinese engineers in the bay area. (not too much money, but it looks good on my college application :D) Was the scholarship racist? Hell yeah. Not only that, it only looked at children of the members of the organization. This was a bad example, but what i'm saying is that scholarships have nothing to do with equality. It's about giving away free money.

And about Jesse Jackson. Who cares? A democratic senator came to SVR, and not only that, she SPOKE at it. Does that mean all the republicans in FIRST go off spouting about how FIRST is a liberal organization and for the sake of the country we should all stop doing it? No.

Alright. I'm done. Just wanted to get a post in before they ACTUALLY closed the thread. ;)

DCaldwell05BCP 15-04-2003 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Aonic
I think this thread has shown alot of restraint, especially for such a controversial topic. If you would like to see the boards do some self-governing, fine, but having every other post be someone saying that nobody else should post here seems a bit... counterproductive.

That being said, i'll chime in on the discussion. ;)

People that know me will recall this statement i'm about to make. I often make it in most discussions on stereotypes, and discrimination in general.

Humans evolved with the innate ability to discern between "its gonna eat me" and "yummy" - that is, its in our nature to categorize things.

Race is no different. We naturally categorize "us" and "them." As long as there is no bigger threat, the "them" will always be among humans, and discrimination/stereotypes cannot be prevented. Hell, I admit, I stereotype alot - asians are bad drivers (guilty as charged,) people you run into in a dark alley at 0300 hours are not to be trusted, etc. It's a human instinct - we use it to protect ourselves. If you're robbed 5 times in a row by a monkey, next time you meet a monkey, you're going to be a bit cautious. Likewise if you hear about people getting robbed by monkeys on the radio.

Anyway, I guess the whole point of this schpleel is that humans are naturally segregationist. There will always be people who are more advantaged, and people who are less advantaged. It's up to us to overcome that natural instinct and help eachother as much as possible.

I recently recieved a $100 scholarship from a society of chinese engineers in the bay area. (not too much money, but it looks good on my college application :D) Was the scholarship racist? Hell yeah. Not only that, it only looked at children of the members of the organization. This was a bad example, but what i'm saying is that scholarships have nothing to do with equality. It's about giving away free money.

And about Jesse Jackson. Who cares? A democratic senator came to SVR, and not only that, she SPOKE at it. Does that mean all the republicans in FIRST go off spouting about how FIRST is a liberal organization and for the sake of the country we should all stop doing it? No.

Alright. I'm done. Just wanted to get a post in before they ACTUALLY closed the thread. ;)

There is a difference between an elected representative of a state and government and Jesse Jackson, I believe I made that point already. The Representative in question was elected by the people in that region to represent them and she did.

Being a Libertarian, I don't necessarily agree with her ideas, but I do not mind the fact that she was there.

I believe that most people understood that and I have not seen anything about it.

volleygrrl234 15-04-2003 09:22

First of all, after reading only the first page of posts, i am extremely appaled to hear the "poor white kid" rant going on. I am middle class and am going to college next year, and have had to find the scholarships that will enable me to do that. To say that giving minorities scholarships is the only way they will succeed in life is to stereotype them in a very unfair way. If you deserve it, then you deserve it. Maybe the sponsoring companies have certain affiliations that require them to reach out to minority groups. And on the Jesse Jackson subject... to call him scum is extreme.. and to say that he was unneeded there is to deny him of a right we give in this country. I happen to be white and I have an extreme amount of respect for the man. I would much rather listen to him speak passionately and charismatically about something than to get a sermon from president Bush. Last year at Nationals Jeb Bush showed up. I wasn't too happy, but I didn't complain. I think that people need to give it up and realize that not everything will go their way and not everyone is a conservative Republican. We have rights in this country and no one should be denied of those.

Wetzel 15-04-2003 11:12

Everyone is talking about 'rights'.
I suggest you read this before you talk about what rights a person has or does not have.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"all Men are created equal"

AlbertW 15-04-2003 13:06

By FIRST rules, it is his right to be there.

By law, it is FIRST's right to kick him off.

Joe Matt 15-04-2003 14:13

There goes the whole 'self-moderating' idea Mr. Martus had.

Just to throw my last opinion into the fry here, it is up to the instatution offering the scolarship, not FIRST, who gets it. If they want more hispanics, then sure, give them to hispanics. It's their money and it's up to them. If you wanted to give it to white WASPs, then go ahead. And if you are complaning here, then you should be greatful. Less that 2% of the world has acess to the internet.

Your already very privaledged. I see this topic as more of a 'why can't I have it' then FIRST acually going down the drain.

Geez, the sky really isn't falling.

Koko Ed 15-04-2003 14:19

DIE! EVIL THREAD! DIE!!!!

Brandon Martus 15-04-2003 14:58

As you (and many others) wish.
Everybody has made themselves heard.
Thanks.


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