Whats your honest opinion?
 

*To start this off I believe I took my time to step back and form a very honest and true opinion of the format that FIRST follows and the general problems they seem to have. This post does not represent the views of team 151 but of a concerned participant in a competition with issues to resolve*

This year has been a change of pace for me. My FIRST year I was very supportive and almost a cult follower of FIRST and Dean Kamen. After starting to compete in other robotic competitions there has been a severe wake up call to me with everything associated with FIRST. This is my second year in the program. I believe that there is a number of things that FIRST should change and must change in order to be a truly educational program that rewards those who excel. (This is not saying my team deserved more than they got). Looking at the teams who made it to the Finals at Nationals the robots themselves were not impressive. (nothing against those who won) If FIRST wants to be a more popular program (im talking televised) they have to design the tournements to lend torwards more impressive robots. I was not impressed with the robots and I have talked to many other people who share the same sentiment. When its the stuff that falls under questionable areas rules wise (ie robots getting flipped over and robots just generally getting beat) that sparks the most interest the rules are obviously focusing on the wrong aspects. I agree with what Chuck Yager (sp?) said at the closing ceremonies, "I wish you guys could stap bombs on these guys and blow each other up" Now, I dont think it should be bombs, but I do think that combative strategies against other robots should not be as big of an issue.

In February I was happy to participate in a smaller form of battlebots in Pennsylvania. (not associated with Battlebots) This competition has several different weight classes ranging from 1 pound to 60 pounds. The event was held during the Motorama event. The event was held by NERC. After the event going to the FIRST regional was much of a shock. The amount of rules and regulations that FIRST has on the building of the robot is extreme and in some case out of hand. One of the more prevalent examples was the 10 gauge wire to the Globe motors that come prewired with a smaller gauge. Another issue with the regional included misinformed judging staff. During the inspection I was told that we needed a pressure gauge after the 60 psi regulator. At first I assumed that FIRST just didn't want teams "altering" the regulator or they didn't trust the manufacturers specifications. At nationals I was surprised to learn that this gauge was not required. The FIRST staff needs to realize that the manufacturers have tested their design and know its limits (IE the manufacturers will supply the wire the motor needs) Also the FIRST judges should be better informed about the rules and regulations.

Returning back to the fighting robots, they all run at least at 12 volts, and this is for robots that are a fraction of the weight of a FIRST robot. The 30 pounder (named JB Johson) that my group brought to Motorama used the Atwood mobile motors that are the same type as those that came with the 2002 kit. (usually refereed to Chipuahuas or CIMs) it ran 24v Victors (from Innovation FIRST) and it ran at 18 volts. All this for a 30 pounder. FIRST should realize that in order for robots to be more impressive they should bump the voltage up a bit and also improve the motors that are in the Kit. The motors do not lend themselves to a 130 pound robot. (On our next version of JB will probably run off 4 Atwoods all this on a 30 pounder!!!) First should realize the motor needs that a 130 pounder can have and supply us with motors that fulfill that need. IFI already carries 24 volt victors so a change from 12 volts to 24 would not be extremly hard. Plus it would expand the opportunities for Innovation FIRST.

If any of you haven't read Gearheads I suggest you go get yourselves a copy.
But in the book it talks about what Kamen had of a first impression of Battlebots. I was uneased by his view of Battlebots. As a whole i believe that the fighting robots comunity represents a group of closely knit friends that come together and have a great time fighting robots. (by the way if any of you saw the battlebots episode of CSI the portrayal of builders was completely wrong)

After the FIRST regional I decided that I was going to work harder trying to promote fighting robots. This led to the Formation of NHCRC, a club I founded at my high school to hold public robot events and feature a variety of robotic projects, ranging from 1 to 12 pounds (eventually larger). On a closing note after my experience in Houston, Texas for the FIRST Nationals, I plan on taking my group from NHCRC and competing in battlebots IQ, as well as participating in FIRST next year. (Battlebots IQ is a program designed as BATTLEBOTS version of FIRST. Check out Battlebots.com for more information)

Also, as a reminder, anything I have stated here is simply my own opinion and does not reflect the views of my team(s).

For more information on small Fighting robots you can vist
www.poundofpain.com
www.sozbots.com
www.robotconflict.com
For information on battlebots IQ you can visit
www.battlebots.com

Re: Whats your honest opinion?
 

I saw it!


*rhetorical question* Doesn't tv always use the angle that will most suit dramatic purposes?

Wow. I was just thinking the exact same thing yesterday. So many teams were using only drill motors or Atwoods for drive, and I was commenting on how the drill setup would be pushing it even for a lightweight combat robot and how my 12 pounder could outpush many of the FIRST robots out there. The drill motors/transmissions are nice, but are not suited for 130 pound robots. And then, to top that off, everything is running off of 12v. Upping the voltage and not using the hefty SLAs would be a huge improvement in my mind. Although most FIRST robots are severely underpowered, you have to keep in mind that we're driving on carpet here. And the ruleset is much longer than it needs to be. I don't think teams really need a set wire gauge or circuit breakers or anything like that.

I have to disagree with you on one of your comments, though. The robots in the finals were all pretty amazing.

Another awesome robotic combat club is MURC (Mid U.S. Robotics Club).

just a reminder
 

First off- the motors
The motors are donated by companies that FIRST has asked to donate. In order to keep the costs of the kit low, the motors that are used are the ones that have been donated. Unless First gets more generosity from the suppliers these are the motors that you will get.
As for the robot's weight- Your robot does not have to be 130 lbs. That is a max, your robot could very well be thirty pounds. FIRST used to have a featherweight in the finals award. Maybe it would be a good idea for that to return.

On the 24 volt system- A lot of people have been throwing that around lately and it would require a major changeover in the kit of parts. Most of the motors that we receive are designed to run off of 12 volts. Over volting the motors will make them put out more power but it will also wear out the motors much faster. Also, a 24 V system could be very intimidating for rookies. After seeing some of the wiring schematics this year, I am not sure that moving up to 24 V would be a wise thing.

The reason that the rules are there is to keep a team from hurting themselves. Yes it does have a lot more rules than battle bots or other robotics competitions. However, all other competitions that I have seen require a pretty extensive knowledge of Engineering to begin undertaking the building of the bot. If you follow the FIRST rules, it is somewhat difficult;lt to make a robot that will turn into a fire hazard. It is possible, but I believe FIRST wrote the rules with a good margin of safety built in. Also, remember that resistance increases as length increase in terms of wire. With some of the motors pulling the juice they do, 10 gauge is not really a bad idea.

In my opinion, FIRST is more about unique design rather than brute strength. FIRST seems to prefer a mechanism that accomplishes a task in a different manner. While brute strength is always nice, it is not a necessity in FIRST competition.

Re: just a reminder
 

*To start this off I believe I took my time to step back and form a very honest and true opinion of the format that FIRST follows and the general problems they seem to have. This post does not represent the views of team 151 but of a concerned participant in a competition with issues to resolve*


Bill Clinton was quoted to say that Dean Kamens energy and enthusiam about the FIRST program was the single most inexhuastable energy source this nation has. If Dean Kamen asked for more fore the FIRST program and really put his best efforts into improving the motors (while keeping the cost low)
The biggest issue with this is that your pushing power is relative to your coefficeint of Friction and your mass IE less mass = less pushing power

In most other common robot applications not overvolting motors is unheard of. A motor can usually handle at least 1.5 times the voltage. Also Dewalt has 18 volt drills so Kamen could get 18 volt drill motors that can easily handle 24 volts. Also IFI already makes 24 volt products so it would be a simple change of type in the next kit.

As far as it being intimidating the entire thing competition can be intimidating for rookie teams. Simply changing voltage to 24 would not have a significant effect on any "intimidation" factor.



When i was refering to the 10 gauge wire it was just using that to the globe motors which have a very much smaller gauge wire that it comes with (this wire stays there and you hook the 10 gauge to it)

My suggestions lend more torwards a more marketable program that lends itself to higher comercial value and a faster overall growth rate. FIRST tried to get a television deal wth Viacom in like '96 (i believe that was the year) Viacom even made a pilot but decided the robots were not impressive enough and it didn't make good television. Making some of these changes would lend more torwards a comercial product which would help the over all growth of FIRST. More comercial equals more media equals more participants which is exactlly what Kamen wants.

Also, as a reminder, anything I have stated here is simply my own opinion and does not reflect the views of my team(s).

Safety a Limiter
 

Remember that the field that we play in is not completely enclosed, and there are people standing to the sides. Effectively doubling the voltage would be doubling the power available to the robots. (If any of you saw what happened the the field barriers after a strong robot this year hit it, you can imagine what would happen if a robot twice as strong hit it)

Remember that the Field is carpetted, can you imagine the damage that large robot would do to anything else?

Remember that in FIRST, I have not seen a real out of control fire, usually letting out the magic smoke is as bad as it gets. Yes the wiring builds in a lot of saftey margin, but remember that a fire can easily take a robot out of commision and may cause damage to the playing field or worse other people.

The damage that robots took this year was bad enough as it is. We don't want to regress to the point where 99% of the weight of the robot needs to be spent on armor to keep it in one piece after a round is over.

There are much more creative tasks, stacking one of them that are far more interesting to watch. (I remember the loud and universal cheer the first time people saw someone that ACUTUALLY worked with a stack) that is impressive, not robots slamming into each other the whole time.

This is my 4th year with FIRST and see clearly that what makes FIRST different and more sustaining than any other robotics program (even Battlebots is out without a sponsor right now) is that new and fresh things are added and changed each year.

Think of the real world, there is no use for a robot that drives and slams into a wall repeatedly, but there is definately a use for a robotic surgeon.

window dressing and razor blades...
 

I agree that FIRST has many rules compared to various fighting robot competitions. I would like it if the rules could be simplified, but I will understand if they are not.

Most of the rule complications fall under either safety or fairness heading.

As to the safety, I would prefer that FIRST had some general principles they put forward along with some recommended guidelines. I think we would be farther ahead in this case because many unsafe practices are not covered by the legalistic rule book and also many good ideas that can be safely implemented are forbidden. Yet, in our lawsuit happy world, it will be very difficult to relax many of these rules.

As to fairness, there are no completely fair rules or completely fair and consistant set of rules. This year's change to a more open material list was a step in the right direction. I would argue for even more openness in this area. I would especially like to see more open rules on motors (perhaps allowing teams to buy more or to use a wider variety of motors from a given list) and more open rules on pneumatics (perhaps allowing for larger storage tanks, more valves, more types of valves, more actuators and more types of actuators).

But, largely these issues are window dressing. The MAIN issue before us (which I believe is one of the keys to the ultimate success of FIRST, specifically, changing the culture by GETTING ON TV) will not be addressed by changing the robot construction rules but by getting a better game.

I know that FIRST really tried this year to make an exciting, TV friendly game. Let's not sugar coat it: they failed.

Bottom line: Stacking is hard. Knocking down is easy. King-of-the-Hill was the Name-of-the-Game (or should have been). This year's game rewarded pushing too much, rewarded building stacks too little and then wrapped it all in an Elimation Round Format that all but ensured anti-climactic endings.

I repeat what I have said many times: FIRST is running down a razor blade. It is a very close thing whether we will grow fast enough catch the eye of mass media in order to make the difference we all want before we will crash and burn, imploding on ourselves before we make a lasting impact.

This season was another lost opportunity.

Perhaps next year.

Joe J.

Re: Safety a Limiter
 

But is there any reason we have to play in an unenclosed field? I don't see any, other than possibly making the HP aspect a bit more difficult to implement.

We don't need carpet, there's no reason to stick with that, the metal grating and HDPE were excellent surfaces to play on. I know at DotD there was some other kind of flooring that held up extremely well and had great traction.

While FIRST tried to get a more spectator friendly game, Joe Johnson is right, they failed. I still can't explain the game very quickly, and you can't just watch it and instantly understand. BattleBots is like that, that's the reason they are on TV and we are not. You can turn BattleBots on and you have instant action and understanding. I know FIRST doesn't and shouldn't go to strictly fighting, but we have to come up with something, so no more complaining, that doesn't solve anything, we are the smartest group of people on the face of the planet, I know we can come up with something.

Good things from this year's competition:
Multiple and interesting surfaces, playing field, and scoring elements.
Game with lots of action; i.e. shoving, flipping, etc.
Something that looks cool when you see it, i.e. a KotH taking the ramp, a robot making a giant stack. That kind of stuff pulls you in, we need more of that.

Bad Things:
Dead Time, between matches, often at points in the match where people settle into places, i.e. someones at the top, 1 robot in each zone, and someone is flipped over. You need conflict.
Game too hard to understand, I think this is obvious, it's easier to explain than before but not easy enough.

I see lots of solutions:
Enclosed Field
Something other than carpet (can you say water? :D)
Different shape field, why not, something brand new, how bout a field shaped like pi?
And somehow, we have to get on TV, on some larger station, not the NASA channel.

Less Complaining! More Solutions!

This was posted in another thread - i'm paraphrasing from memory:

The high-gauge wires coming from the motors are a more expensive wire that are designed to let out more heat (or something) and that work well with the motor. If you want to use cheap wire, you'll hafta use a lower gauge.

It's a fine line to walk between action and destruction. Why do more people watch wrestling over golf? Football over tennis? Battlebots over FIRST?

From my 4 years of involvement with FIRST, I've noticed they tend to be geared more towards creation, both on the physical robot end, and mentally by fostering an interest in math, science, and engineering. Battlebots, on the other hand, seems geared at simple destruction, made for TV, "because it's cool."

I think FIRST is doing a fine job as per growth rate: I've seen and learned from many experiences that too high a rate of growth is not a good thing for any company... i.e. growth beyond what it's capable of handling. True, it would grow more if on network TV, but there is no more powerful growth medium than word of mouth.

That aside, I'd like to see FIRST maintain the intellectual integrity in competition. Anyone can drive a battlebot, given the parameters of the controls necessary to implement destruction, but with FIRST, strategy, as well as a capable bot, is necessary to succeed. The scoring may not be friendly to spectators intially, but after watching a few matches, it's not so difficult to pick up, especially given the many willing participants in the audience who can explain the game with their eyes closed. Personally, I enjoy the friendly competition atmosphere over "I want to rip your robot's electronics out while toasting it over an open fire." Whoever says matches like this aren't exciting weren't watching the divisional elimination matches, or even the championship finals. The carpet serves a number of purposes, from sound dampening, to alliance identification, to scoring zones, to robot protection, to venue protection. Imagine the sound of aluminum scraping concrete every match. Think of the scratches in the concrete left by pushing and shoving robots, and how much damage FIRST would have to pay to each venue as a result.

Overall, I enjoy FIRST the way it is. It would be nice to see continuing, steady growth, overcoming the population with friendly competition that supports the changes FIRST is trying to make, rather than mindless destruction that can be seen with battlebots. It's been said Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was society. Society has been established over the course of decades and centuries, and won't be changed by a mere 10-11 years. However, the changes it has made over the course of such a short time are phenomenol. Thousands of students who would have never considered it are now persueing engineering degrees. To change a society overnight is impossible. To change society over a year is impossible. The only sure way to invoke change is to use time as an ally. While media coverage would invoke the changes faster, if we stoop to a level where violence is necessary to grab that attention, would that not defeat the purpose of what FIRST is trying to teach?

Sorry for the long rant, but I feel I must defend the program that's changed my life.

Re: Re: Safety a Limiter
 

I think this year's game was a step in the right direction for FIRST in both of these categories.

The past 6 years, i've tried to explain this game to my dad. This was the first year he was able to understand it easily, and we were able to talk strategy. I consider my dad as our target demographic. 25-55 male. Consumer. Homeowner. This was the first game that has appealed to him. I say the games are getting better.

As far as dead time, that's just a part of competition. For every Duke vs North Carolina, there's a bunch of Wake Forest vs Texas Tech. Also, if the score is 10-2 in the bottom of the 9th, you're probably gonna change the channel, unless you're a diehard fan of one of the teams.

My point here is that we don't need to worry about down time. We just need to air the competition tape delayed. Do you think every Battle Bots match is as entertaining as Disector vs Biohazard? Heck no! They edit down days of competition to get a couple hours of quality footage that they can show over a whole season. This is the kind of thing I envision for FIRST:

Excuse my dream sequence here, but you can see what I mean. Robots hitting eachother over the head *does* get boring after a while. FIRST's games are way more interesting than that. With some great personalities and some good editing, even this year's game would work great for TV.

First to Sean,
Interesting start, but here is my take on things. I am proud of the robots we build because they are not battlebots. Our robots could easily be modified to run and maim other devices but what do you learn from that. Between regionals, nationals, post season, practice and demonstrations our robots will easily run 70-100 competitions. Many of them with little or no maintenance during that season. We still use our old robots to test our new ones two or three years later. After the time invested in this program I happy to know that someone out there is not trying to turn our robot into scrap.
As to the motors and materials...One of the biggest life lessons you can learn from this competition is there are real world restrictions on anything you do. Learning those restrictions and how to design and build something within those restrictions is invaluable. Anyone who has gone to nationals can tell you that 300 robots, all designed to do the same thing, rarely even come close to looking alike. That variety is a tribute to the creative process within us all. Use it to your advantage. No matter what you do, you cannot modify the real world restrictions to suit yourself. Learn how to live with that and you will be successful.
As to motors, batteries, etc. There are a number of misconceptions. 24 volts is not better than 12 volts. Power is power, 10 watts at 24 volts or 10 watts at 12 volts is still 10 watts. Our 12 volt SLA battery packs a whale of a punch in terms of power density, they are easy to find, lot's of product out there runs on 12 volts, and insulation is not as critical an issue as at a higher voltage. Yes our suppliers provide us with 12 volt motors but you can walk into any junkyard and get 12 motors to experiment with at home. And you already have the knowledge of integrating a design with them simply from your FIRST experience.
I choose to be involved with this program because it teaches so much. Sure you can learn about robotics from Battlebots, but what else. Do you learn communications by beating another robot, do you learn respect from trying to damage someone's creation, do you absorb any knowledge from mentors, team members or volunteers when they don't exist? This competition gives you all that and more if you take the initiative. Ask any adult and they will tell you how they wish they had any kind of educational experience like this. You have the opportunity to test out a variety of career ideas without anything more than a small time commitment. How invaluable is that? Ask someone who has put in four years of college only to realize it is not what he or she wants to do for the rest of their lives. We succeed even if a student decides engineering or science is not for them. It at least narrows the field.
Finally, I do agree with Joe in a few areas. TV coverage will help expand this program quickly, but it can kill it just as easily. The general viewing public can only take so much of the same thing before it becomes fickle and turns to something else. An easier game with good scoring possibilities and exciting finishes will bring spectators and TV. The hardest thing is to come up with a great game. FIRST has hit a good one every year, some better than others. This is not one of my favorite games but it had some exciting moments. I am glad that thinking up a new game is not my responsibility.

Re: Re: Re: Safety a Limiter
 

Ok, interesting aside, we actually did play match 54, but in Newton. odd... lol

I completely agree that FIRST is headed in the right direction, I was trying to point out that we are not there quite yet. I know it's only going to get better, I'm just trying to point out what needs to be worked on in order to get people to come up with solutions. Just seeing a little too much whining without though ;)

You're right, down time isn't a big issue, the people at competition are so pumped anyways, and you have tons of editing advantages with TV.

Glad to hear that your dad understands this game, obviously we are headed in the right direction. I wonder if we will get another, "Ok, you design this year's game" thread from Dave Lavery again...PLEASE!

And George, are you coming up with this commentary on the fly? If so, we NEED you to do some announcing at events, there's some boring announcing going on, that's another problem, and I know we have good announcers in the community, they just need to step up.

*To start this off I believe I took my time to step back and form a very honest and true opinion of the format that FIRST follows and the general problems they seem to have. This post does not represent the views of team 151 but of a concerned participant in a competition with issues to resolve*

Just one thing that some of the previous posts seemed to think and have a misconstrued opinion on. The Battlebots enviroment is about beating apart the other robot. But that is only for the two or three m,inutes in the match. Imediately after the match yoru back in the pit fixing any major damage on your bot and checking up with your competitor and helping him. There is more cross team work done in battlebots than there is in FIRST (I know this for a fact) In the pits at an event you see more people helping each other and less divisions by team. There are two major times in Combat Robotics that the builders are divided. In the battlebox and on the winners podium. (there are three if you want to include forums ;))
One other thing as far as respect goes you learn to respect each others ability in Combat Robotics. Repect is something people earn. You can earn it in both FIRST and Combat Robotics. Watching a better built /desinged bot kick your bots butt is one time that you learn to respect the other builder.

Come on Jac. OBVIOUSLY this is because it would never end. So, until you can come up with some area that has infinite space willing to host a FIRST event, maybe we should stick with a good approximation like 3.14. Or, how about e^(PI*i) -- you knew I was going to say that, didn't you?

:( You forgot about autonomous sumo. The nonviolent version of battlebots. All the robots do is go around a push with a lot of creativity involved. Personally I would rather see some competition like Trinity Firefighting where the robots actually complete a real world objective like finding a candle and putting it out.

GRACIOUS Professionalism
 

Like the post that started this, I will make the disclaimer that my remarks do not necessarily represent our team's collective opinion, but my own.

First off, the idea of BattleBots is ANTITHETICAL to the ideas behind FIRST. Going around a field beating other robots to bits is not Gracious Professionalism as can be defined by anything. There is nothing gracious nor anything professional about bullying around another robot. I saw several robots at nationals that probably should have been called because they were really nothing more than BattleBots.

Secondly, about the media: We've always known that the television market will go after the bad before the good. Hence why you'll see eleven murders and rapes on TV and nothing about someone who just made valedictorian of his/her class. Or for that matter why we see more football than less violent sports: they're only interested, for the most part, in things that will catch the average American's extremely short attention span, or what will sell advertising.

There is no reason for FIRST to change how it operates to pander to the mass market media. On the contrary, they could line up a media sponsor and/or find an efficient method of getting the media from every FIRST team's town to report on progress as it happens in regionals and in national competitions. FIRST is growing, and growing quickly...now's the time to spread the word farther beyond where it goes now.

The point of FIRST is not only to amuse those observing its product but to further educate students and teach them to INNOVATE. Therefore, teams need to understand how to think outside the proverbial box and leave the box-with-wheels prototype. FIRST is not about more of the same, modifying the previous year's, but INNOVATION. I saw a great many robots out at nationals that really were boxes with wheels. There is nothing innovative about a box with wheels at all. Think outside the box and truly find perhaps the deeper reasoning for why FIRST is what it is.

Okay, that's enough ranting for now...

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891 ... Neverending Chaos...
Your lucky number: 3.14159265358979323846....

Adding a wedge to a robot does not make it a battlebot.

Gracious PROFESSIONALISM, part 2
 

In response to the wedge bit....
When you use a wedge to INTENTIONALLY TIP another robot you have left the world of Gracious Professionalism and entered the realm of BattleBots... intentional damage to another robot, or putting them out of comission is not professional nor is it gracious to anyone other than catering to oneself... not FIRST-like at all.

Renting eyeballs and the vision of FIRST...
 

In my opinion, FIRST is not sustainable as it is now configured.

I do not believe that the generous supporters of FIRST will continue to support it forever or that FIRST can continue to find new sponsors at the rate needed to support its growth rate and to replace the sponsors it looses.

All realize that FIRST has a very important goal, but I believe that FIRST has been sold to its major supporter as something that will eventually survive on its own.

It is possible that FIRST can change its structure to learn to live without support growing at the same rate as the growth in the number of teams, but I am skeptical that this is a likely way to long term viability.

In my opinion, mass media interest and support is the path that allows for FIRST to continue to survive and grow. This idea is not original to me, listen closely to Dean speeches. Almost all of his public comments make references to this or that company being proud sponsors of this or that athletic competition.

It is my understanding that Dean envisions a day when Delphi, Motorola, GM, Baxter, ... .... and Pepsi, and Coke, and McDonalds, are giving money to FIRST for the same reason they sponsor NASCAR, Olympics or the NCAA Final Four -- Because the eyeball watching the event are worth renting, not because of an altruistic impulse on the part of this or that CEO.

THIS is what I mean when I say that FIRST is running down a razor blade. There is a limit to the altuism of its sponsors -- we need capitalism to take over before the we reach the bottom of the pockets of those generous supporters who write huge checks to FIRST year after year.

This is the vision of FIRST that Dean sold me on at the FIRST kickoff in January 1996. It is still my vision several thousand volunteer hours and 8 FIRST seasons later.

This is why I believe it is important that FIRST get it right... ...and soon.

Joe J.

The day FIRST looses sight of it's primary goals in an effort to sustain itself is the day FIRST will loose the respect of it's students. If FIRST needs to "polish up" and resort to savage beatings and destruction to gain ratings and support of the public, what is the purpose of sustaining FIRST, if the messages it is trying to send are blocked by public appeal?

Joe, I don't disagree with you that FIRST needs more support to survive in the future, but I've seen company after company fall due to astronomical growth rates. With a steady trickle of media coverage and students graduating and starting their own teams, FIRST's growth has been steady and relatively constant for the past few years. Aside from that, the supporters FIRST does have, NASA, Disney, Delphi, UTC, Autodesk, etc. support FIRST because it's educational, and prepares students for careers in their respective fields. Pepsi, McDonalds, Coke- look what they do support- NASCAR, various sporting events- huge markets for them and their product. They make more in sales at those events than they invest in the events themselves.

Basically, it's extremely difficult to change a culture while expecting them to support what's changing them. I think the best way to change the world is slowly, one person at a time, as more and more students push all they can for FIRST teams all around the country.

FIRST isn't going anywhere anytime soon (as in leaving). With its current growth rates, of course more money will be needed, meaning more sponsers will be needed, but that's understandable. This is a great competition founded on great ideas and concepts - sponsers aren't going to disregard this due to not having enough media coverage. And if they do, then we don't need em anyways. Graciously Professional companies will continue to sponser - FIRST will remain. At least, this is how I see it... who knows, people can be very cruel. :(

*To start this off I believe I took my time to step back and form a very honest and true opinion of the format that FIRST follows and the general problems they seem to have. This post does not represent the views of team 151 but of a concerned participant in a competition with issues to resolve*

Theres another issue that Dean Kamen and Woodie both preach. The issue with Gracious professionalism is that is largely a Utopian idea. In the real workforce a company is not going to apply tactics like gracious professionalism. They will do whatever they can to win the contract. The real world does not help there competitor. At the real world level the companies goals are money. The FIRST program has an entirely different goal and thats education. Gracious Professionalism works when the goal of a group is education not when the goal of a group is money. The idea of "gracious professionalism" is mis-phrased and sometimes misused. It should be more of a quote like "Good Sportsmanship" which is an attribute that any competition should support. The real world does not have Gracious Professionalism. But real world competitions do usually have good sportsmanship
Also I'm not saying that FIRST should ditch everything and become a Robot Combat Competition. I'm just saying they should be slightly more lenient on the rules. Doing so because of the path or "commercial robot applications" that Battle bots has created.
If you want to say that FIRST can be self sustaining or that it will grow with out media I have to disagree. It will reach a point where there will be few to no new teams joining. If they don't adapt the program they wont survive. The program as it is can and does only entertain a certain niche. If it does not adapt to be a little more "aggressive" First will be slowly downsized by more adaptive science programs. Programs that allow for a similar experience with a smaller rule set and larger robot capabilities. If the competition fails to "entertain" it will fail to be as large a program as it has the possibility for.

Gracious professionalism is not a utopian idea and it's not a bad one either. On the contrary, it's just a way of saying lets have a good time and learn something rather than lets build something to blast the crap outta someone else's creation. There are instances of gracious professionalism in the real world - and there ought to be more. FIRST is trying to change the world's perceptions, not limit itself to the rest of the world's perceptions.

The rules are in place to protect each team's investments of money into their own programs and to make FIRST competitions fun for ALL involved, not just attacker robots...

You fail to account for the number of graduating FIRSTers who will go on to expand the program...as the number of programs grows, so then does the number of graduates who have been in FIRST...

FIRST is obviously not being downsized or anything - it grows at a constant rate, nabs new sponsors every year (even in this crappy economy we have right now, FIRST is growing), and FIRST allows for lots of robot capabilities... much more so than BattleBots could because it allows for lots of INNOVATIVE ideas to come out and be tested in a safer environment for experimentation. FIRST as it is serves to entertain the audience and educate it as well....and of course show off what High School Students can do.

Enough ranting and raving on this, if you have questions about what I wrote PM me.

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891
http://first891.topcities.com

Intentionally damaging/destroying robots is never going to play a role in FIRST for the following reasons:

1. Safety: some of these bots (mine included) ARE actually completely student built. We like to say that we did a damned good job, but sticking a radial saw on a classroom robot cannot be considered good practice, never. Also, an enclosed field will not happen; it is too expensive and separates the robots from the spectators - that isn't a good thing.

2. FIRST has enough problems procuring replacement parts as it is. In a game whose objective it is to maim other robots, the repair expenses would be astronomical.

3. If they did it now, everyone would call FIRST BattleBots imitators. And they would be right.

Also, saying that FIRST should be more lax on rules is just nonsensical. If anything, they need to come up with a strict set of rules and ENFORCE them rather than changing them weekly. That whole rotating light affair set my team back for critical days, before finding out at our first regional that it was just fine upside down. Moreover, my team came up with designs that utilized wedges early in the season, but we dismissed them as illegal and immoral. We were ultimately beaten by one - all because of inconsistent rulings and gray areas.

Is that the message we want to send? Every other successful sport has a clearly defined set of rules that are followed. And as it is I consider FIRST much more successful than BattleBots - it has touched far more lives already than BB ever will.

Lastly, gracious professionalism does exist - if you cannot find it in your sponsor or workplace, then find a new one. You hear about the Enrons and Worldcoms in the news every day, but you don't hear about the thousands of honorable, respectable businesses that keep our economy running. Believe me, they exist.

If you want to crash robots, then go get involved with BattleBots and stop complaining about FIRST. If not, stop complaining anyway.

*wondering how much real world work experience you base that on*

In my experience there were two companies who practiced gracious professionalism - Nordstrom and Oasis Residential in Vegas. Both companies practiced amazing customer service which brought to them the success they deserved acting with gp. Oasis was sold, and the founders started a new business, our team's corporate sponsor rent.com - a win-win for renters and landlords.

In the other company I worked for, there were people in the company who practiced gp, altho perhaps the company as a whole didn't practice it - thus I'm not naming it. My favorite mentor there modeled for me GP.

I don't think gp has the narrow definition you give it. On a personal level imo it means "taking care of yourself" and "caring for the other person" - like giving yourself oxygen on a plane in trouble so you can help the person next to you. On a business level I'd say it's "taking care of business" and caring about customers, employees, environment, world issues...

and our corporate sponsor obviously cares about education.


I think sportsmanship is only one facet of the gp diamond.

I agree with Redhead Jokes, and add in this-

FIRST's goal is to inspire students about science and technology... If those students become inspired with the idea of gracious professionalism, they will graduate, become involved with various companies, leaders, employees, etc. They will use the concepts learned throughout their life and apply it to their business practices, whether it be gear ratios, or gracious professionalism. In addition, they will start their own FIRST teams, become mentors, teach what they know, including gracious professionalism to their students, who will graduate, join companies, and the cycle continues. The idea is, if enough students touched by gracious professionalism graduate and become the leaders of major corporations, the world will become a less cut throat place. Again, as with anything, it takes time. The idea is not to conform to todays standards, but change the standards of tomorrow at their source- today's youth.

Deleted By Sean

Re: Re: Re: Re: Safety a Limiter
 

yes, that was all shooting from the hip... thanks for the compliment. i'd love to volunteer at events if i'm ever without a team. announce, ref, inspect, reset fields... i'm all FIRST's if i'm ever team-less.

as for good announcers at events, Andy and Ron did AWESOME at UCF. they were like Madden and Summerall out there. 2 announcers are the way to go if ya ask me.

Sean,
I don't want to beat you up on this issue but I do want you to understand. I agree with Cheryl and many others that "Gracious professionalism" is real world and it takes place everyday around the country and around the world. You may know it better under different names. NASA for one, ASME, Audio Engineering Society, Society of Broadcast Engineers, etc. Think tanks like Deka, in house research and development divisions, any college undergraduate and post graduate program also follow the same principles. Now there is something I will agree with you on and that at the core, these are all education central. If we don't continue to learn from each other, we will never advance as a civilization. You may have seen this in one of my other posts, my goal in life is to not go to sleep any night until I have learned something new that day. For me it is not a suggestion or a new year's resolution. If nothing else is remembered by the students I work with let that simple daily routine be something they carry for the rest of their lives. I know that things look pretty black and white to you now, but real life is rarely that simple. If you keep your mind open, whole new worlds open to you. You have a wonderful experience ahead of you, it is just around the corner, if you close your eyes, it will pass you by.

Deleted by Sean

If some of the largest collaborative agencies and organizations in science and engineering aren't good examples of groups that have Gracious Professionalism, then what exactly will it take to prove to you that it exists?

(Also, by the way....in one of your previous posts I believe that you indirectly make Science and Engineering fields out not to be in reality....which they definitely are......)

Again, my words, not my team's...

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos....

BattleBot = RC Car
FIRST = Robotic Device

There is a difference between building a big metal car with hammers and wedges vs. a complex machine that plays a game. the software designs this year were outstanding. Using light sensors, data inputs and outputs, complex system processes constrained by control limitations...now that is a robot!

If you want to smash metal and see who can build a stronger RC car, have at it.

If you want to try and draw more people into the world of robotics, science, technology and yes REAL world applications mentor a team or two.

GP is a real wold everyday thing. If you want to see it in action come to Silicon Valley and spend a day with me. I'll point out to you how companies get started and GP is rule #1.

Steve Bronstein
Advisor
MVRT 115

I have to say that lots of robots this year were nothing more than large RC cars. Even if they did have something to operate, rarely was it used, most of the game was pushing matches and moving boxes, with conveniently shaped RC cars.

Deleted by Sean

*thinking of that psychological term projection*

I disagree. D'oh! Is that a perversion?

That is exactly the purpose behind Dean and Woodie's philosophies. If students can understand and make use of gracious professionalism on a regular basis, they will become the real world in the very near future, and will not hesitate to apply what they've learned while participating in FIRST. As I've said over and over, it's acknowledged the world has it's problems pertaining to company/market interaction, and at this point it can be quite cuthroat. The idea behind FIRST is to inspire science and technology to the point where people can respect each other, at least on those grounds. Rather than "your robot is better than mine," we see "that's a cool design! can you show me how it works?" There's much more "let me show you how we did this" than "We're better than you." If students maintain this level of integrity when they move into the real world, the real world will change for the better. However, it will not happen overnight. It will take years, even decades for the message to work it's way up the corporate ladder. Once it does, I believe we can expect a much less volitile market, and our civilization will advance even further with companies working together and sharing ideas/technology to better the world as a whole, rather than meet a certain product sales quota, or boost quarterly earnings. Imagine where our technology would be if companies did work together. This is what Gracious Professionalism means to me. That is where I hope the world is heading thanks to FIRST.

You reminded me of the unspoken "quota" required when I was undercover security arresting shoplifters at a major dept store.

Our director wanted to catch the attention of the west coast director, and asked us to start collecting customer service letters from those we arrested (cuz the rest of the store was "run" on customer service).

I was the only one with the chutzpah to do it.

I treated all with GP, unless it required something "more", and once they settled down, I would again treat them with GP.

Deleted By Sean

*puzzled* I don't think FIRST is embarrassed. I don't think the other posters are embarrassed.

re: Perversion to FIRST
 

The only embarrassment I see here is to Sean, perhaps, for his opinion being hounded. FIRST need not be embarrased by any of this.

We can't force Sean to change his mind, and after all, this thread is What is Your Honest Opinion.......

We can only show him the light. I'm not embarrassed by what's been written here.

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos....
Your Lucky Number: 3.141592653589793238964...

Deleted By Sean

Umm, Sean....
Every example here has been a clear thought out example of how GP IS and/or SHOULD BE. These are thoughts that mean something... and these are not by any stretch of the imagination random rantings between people. Cheryl just like you has the right to post things, and not necessarily does she by writing have to be an "awesome representative of her team".

By the way, you asked for our opinions by the name of the thread. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted.

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos....
Your Lucky Number: 3.141592653589793238964...

Guys,
Calm down...

Take 2 deep breaths, and repeat after me:

"Everyone plays the game differently, everyone has different thoughts on how the game plays. Everyone involved in this competition benefits in one way or another. FIRST and Battle bots are different. Differences are okay. Everyone likes different things. No one is right or wrong. No one needs to have his views changed."

I never thought I'd see militant gracious profesionalism...

How about everyone sleeps on this...

Remember folks... It's just a game!

No.

Ok.

see post 36

I thank you and my team thanks you (or could that sound I hear be my team thanking me?)

I asked for you opinion of the changes I proposed Not for a 40 post discussion of what GP means. The main focus prupose of the thread has been perverted and I have been verbaly made fun of by old women and some people who cant formulate ideas with facts to back them up. I want this thread deleted because where it has gone is petty bickering over vocab. Alsmot as if wer were arguing over religion. The forums are not the time or the place. If you want to openly ARGUE vocab then PM me i dont want to resort to that here. Until the last few post I have stayed calm consice and I have backed up all my thoughts with valid reasons. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

You may have nothing to be ashamed of, but neither do we who've argued against your points.

Like I said, we gave you our opinions. They just weren't what you wanted to hear....

Aaron Knight
Webmaster and Videographer
Team 891: Neverending Chaos...
Your Lucky Number: 3.141592653589793238964...

You didnt use valid points are and facts to "argue against my posts' all you said was "GP" GP does not mean that the robots cant have a 24 volt system or better motors in the kit or a more developed ruleset that takes all manufacturer specs into account. All i said in regards to battlebots was that FIRST can learn from the limit comercial sucsess of battlebots and Apply some of what they did to make FIRST better. IE dont DQ a team because they nudge a robot and it falls over (ask 121) FIRST + Experience from more comercial robot competitions = Uber allpowerful mighty education GP great loved program.
My original posts were just thoughts I had on improving the FIRST program.

ADMIN: Please Close
 

Let's put an end to the malitious amaturism displayed by all members in this thread and have an admin close it or remove it.

Thank you

Obviously neither of the sides are going to change the other's side's mind. So, if you please just agree to disagree, and continue the conversation else where.

There is no room in this board for bashing of each other, and calling people names, which by the way, was very uncalled for.

If you don't wish understand other's views, that is fine as long as you don't go all out and tell them they are wrong and that they have to believe something else.

Let us know your opinion, back it up with reasons and evidence, then let the other side do the same thing, then take your time to read all the threads, spend time understanding the other's point of view, and have a meaningful discussion instead of all these yelling at each other. That is, afterall, the reason why we come to these board, no?

I don't believe this thread should be deleted neither, because a lot of post have been well thought, and demonstrate a lot of good arguments. If you fail to see that, just don't visit this thread again. Mean while, others are going to come back in here, and learn a little about themselves and others as well.

This thread can be turned into a very interesting discussion, if you want it to. But obviously that's not what you want, so rather than making all these argument worst, I am just going to say again, "Agree to disagree", and you can yell at each other by e-mail.