2004 FIRST Scouting Network
 

Hey All,

I’m Andrew Schenk (aka. Jack) with Team 201. For those of you who already know me and what I want to do, then you already have a good idea of what this post is about. For those of you who don’t you’ll find out soon. Anywho… Some of you may have visited/used http://fbi.feds201.com as a scouting portal this year. I’m the maker of that. However, 99% of the data there didn’t come from me, but rather others. It was a site that acted as a portal to other scouting sites.

Now, I know that during the middle of the off-season, Scouting is the last thing many of you think of. However, in order to truly create a system that will allow teams to share data, we must begin this project now. I know nothing about this project except a few things:

1) The entire project will be developed in the open. This will allow the most input and feedback from the users who will actually be using it. The more people that are involved with the system in the beginning, the more who will use it later
2) I’d like to see a format similar to how I set FBI Scouting up. If you had one “portal” site which directed you to other sub-sites. Each sub-site would be devoted to one data collection method. (Palm OS, MS Access, C++ App, Pocket PC, Paper, File Maker, …)
3) The system will belong to FIRST. There will be no “owner.” Neither I nor Team 201 are going to “own” the system. It will be shaped and evolve based on its users. Its success will also depend on its users. All I’m going to do in the beginning it start the project off; once it begins to take, I’ll let go.
4) The system must be “data-friendly” What does this mean? Well… there are quite a few teams out there who will still want to design their own system. So, there must be a way of accepting data/fields that is in any format, even if it isn’t searchable. (Ex: A comments field) Also, each system must be able to adjust its fields on the fly. This means that to add/delete/change a data field, it can be done very quickly and with out lots of problems.
5) Teams must be able to select how much of the data they can submit. I know that many teams (Including 201) will always want some type of ‘comment’ field that would never be made public. Even if teams choose to submit all data, I think the lack of this type of a field would turn many away.

There are just a few of my thoughts. I want to stress that this system is NOT FBI Scouting. I don’t even have a name for this new “scouting network”. Also, I’ve talked to Brandon Martus, the webmaster of www.chiefdelphi.com. He said that he would be willing to add anything (within reason) to make the network part of CD. I believe that CD integration will be a key to this systems success. Systems already in place (such as SOAP Video’s) should continue to happen, and an effort to integrate them into the system should be made.

Now, I want your feed-back:

Would you be willing to assist in this system’s design/development?
Would you/your team be willing to share even some of its data?
Do you think that a system like this would work (If you think it really won’t please tell me… I don’t want to start something that no one will use)?
In the end, how much better/how valuable would a system like this be?


Thanks all & Please Reply,

Jack, Team 201, The Average FIRST Scouter

PS: If you’d like to contact me you may do so:
CD PM: User- Jack
AIM: knehcsa
Email: webmaster@feds201.com

Wow.... no responses yet. Don't you guys think this is a great idea? I think if we can combine the scouting resources of teams all over, we can make it a lot easier on everyone. Wouldn't you like to see this happen? If you do, say something!

Yes! I like it! Happy Jack? LoL. no really I do, because scouting on paper sheets is <b>really</b> useless..sometimes. Anywayz, I like the idea of everyone being able to see basic information.

Would you be willing to assist in this system’s design/development?

I would be willing to help with any kind of cosmetic work you need (coming up with the data that is relavant and graphics and that sorta thing).

Would you/your team be willing to share even some of its data?

We would love to. We submited a ton of soap profiles and a few to other scouting systems (we did a few ubergeeks and i think we did some in your database). We were really thinking how nice it would be to have a system that would tie together everyones systems to make a good database. Especialy for the championships where we only had data for the teams from our area in our database. Its really just being graciously professional to share your data. We had our system open to all the teams in cleveland and once teams found out alot of teams started coming to our pit and looking through it to check out aliances and oponent before matches.

Do you think that a system like this would work (If you think it really won’t please tell me… I don’t want to start something that no one will use)?
I think it would if enough people got involved and if it worked well.

In the end, how much better/how valuable would a system like this be?
If it was set up properly and easy to use, and had valuable information i think the value to teams that already have a scouting system set up and know how to use it would be great. But also for rookie teams or teams that just haven't yet really gotten into scouting the benefits would be huge. A system that encompased all the regionals would be a great asset to the FIRST community.

oneangrydwarf...

I'm glad you like my idea so much. However, it seems that i really don't have much other support.

Am I correct FIRST Community?

Should I wait another year and try again?

Thanks all,

Jack

PS: This really is my last post about it :)

I'll be more specific this time...

Yes I'd be willing to help with design and such, but I don't really know how to program so I'd need specific instructions and what not.

Yes I think our team would be willing to share data, and I think this system would work with all the right support and teams contributing.

I think I basically just restated everything oneangrydwarf said..

Maybe you should send an email out to all the teams?? Because it's posisble no one just stumbled into the thread... not as many people would be reading off season

I'll provide any help I can.

In NYC team 481 put all off our data in an excel type format, photocopied it and distributed it to all the teams saturday morning. I dont see any reason that we cant share this information, and i will be more than willing to if we do end up scouting next year.

I think that some time during the build season, or at least after the game has been released but well before any competitions a scouting formshould be put on the site. Something that is the samebetween all teams, same rating scales, same questions.

Would all this scouting be pit scouting or watching match scouting or both?

Pit scouting will give you details like stacking or not, but watching their matches will tell what really happens.

Lastly, what about oppinion questions, such as driver ability? That is important to know, but oppinion is oppinion.

I would say this is worthwhile to try, and i will try and get me team to submit our data and use the available data.

Well, the key at this point is not what data is going to be collected, but if there's even support for such a system. Jack may spend his life doing robotics, but if the system won't be used, I can think of a lot of other stuff he could be doing.

This could be a great idea. What I'd recommend is getting other teams to help. Jack doesn't need to do all of the work - there are enough teams in Michigan (and in the area around Rochester) that you might be able to find someone else to help you out. If you can get support, go for it.

I would be willing to help.

HMmmMMMMmm, i think will be really usefull, so i say we get started, I dont know where to start, whether it be starting on the website or what. I have a domain www.xpalendocious.com that would be willing to loan out. I also have a webserver with 40 gigs of room, and a reasonble connection. I offer it all to you. Im willing to take raw data and put it out on a site.

Hey Brandon, can you do a mass PMing?

I think that iff we PMed everybody we might get more publicity.

Well... we have a domain, and space, and all, but what we really want to know is: is there support for this venture? If only half the teams will half-heartedly support such a scouting network, there's no point in doing it.

Many teams, such as mine, cannot afford to submit such info right now. Not only would it be time consuming, but we just can't afford to do it. We are a smaller team who has about 100000 things going on right now. Submitting info to a scouting network that might be completed is not high on our list.

I would love to see this completed. But the fact is that many teams such as mine don't have the time a efforts to keep up-to-date info using the above listed needs. The FBI database is about as much as we can do right now.

Our team was having its end of the year wrap up discussions last night and someone mentioned how nice it would be to have a scouting database where we could compare others views on a robot to what we observed. And how nice it would be if there was a more dependable system where teams would submit information about their robot following shipment.

I told them about this idea being discussed here and they sounded interested.

Our team is going to possibly have a 'software developement' subteam next year for developing applications to help our team out with scouting and writing custom dashboards and such, they may be able to help.

This is a question for IF we got this started...but if we did, could we also have scores that result from matches and regional results and such on the database? This system could really make scouting easier if there was support...
I think when scout teams realize how much easier this makes their job they'll want to help...

If you look at http://fbi.feds201.com , you’ll see that the match results for the teams are there. (Minus Nats) That data comes directly from usfirst.org. I just have a php script that parses the data. I’m glad that more people like this idea. I think I may directly contact a few key teams to get their support. Also, I may go to the programming forum and ask if anyone there is interested. I’ll post more later… I’m in school and gotta go.

Jack

Ah thanks. Our team hasn't been having meetings or anything lately, but I'll let them know at the party. Hmm... I can try to see if they'll talk to friends on other teams too to see if there'd be support from them.

I think doing this in the style of an open source type system would be the most efficent way of doing it. Having all of the source code open so that anyone can develope a new front end for the database would be great. And different teams could have the database running on their sites but it would all be the same data so for example is team a and team b are using the standard scouting system and team A is at the silicon valley regional and team b is at great lakes then when they both get to the big event they can download each others data and they will have the same stuff... or we could just go with having some central database that holds it all.

If in addition there was some way to incorperate the WASH system or come up with a system like WASH for match scouting that would add tremendous capabilities to the system. Once again if the whole thing was somehow open sourced and made so that even if someone wrote a program in Access you could somehow import it into the master database just as easily as if someone was using a big web based database system.

I think this is the idea that jack envisioned and i had also been thinking of a similar system.


If it was all open sourced teams could customize it for their needs as well as having what everyone else is using as the standard stuff. Allowing each team to use the system to its full potentional or as little as they need.

Granted i know almost nothing about databases so i dont know much about the technical aspects of all of this but i am thinking that by using something that is standard like XML or something along those lines it could be achieved in some manner or form.

Along the lines of the open source type idea i also feel it shouldn't nessacarily be associated or run by any one team but rather by the greater FIRST community. That would enable more people to freely give as much or as little input as they wanted and it could be developed and used by everyone equaly. This might be hard due to money issues and storage/server space but i'm sure if we try hard enough we could accomplish it.

I will help in whatever way needed :-)

oneangrydwarf hit it on the head pretty well. The idea is to draw in data from various sources, then compile it into one easily searchable database that will let people view data from multiple sources all at once. That way, you'll be able to see data from all the big online databases, but all in one easily accessible place. Each database would output pre-defined data fields in a standard format, then they would be integrated into a unified viewing system. A pre-made "client" of sorts could be made available, but any system (FMPro, Access, or whatever) could be used, so long as it could export a file of the proper type (XML or something else).

The real key, though, is getting everybody on board. One team will likely have to take the lead, simply from an organizational standpoint, but the FIRST community will have to assist and support this venture, or it will never go anywhere.

This is a great idea, I can't speak for my whole team but I'm willing to help in any way I can.

There is only one problem I can think of, how to combine data from different programs. I think this is one of the most important features of this network. I think other previous attempts (SOAP etc.) have not done well because they require a specific program or the Internet.

(I'm going to think positively and say when )
When this network is created I think it should contain every possible feature so no team is turned away by the lack of something.

I can't wait to help, I'm most interested in helping develop the different categories and creating an MS Access version.

Jack has the right idea getting started early and trying to get as much done ahead of time. It would be great if the project was up and running in a basic version so come kick-off all that has to be done is customize it to the game.

Lindsey

I know that a lot of teams (like mine) don't have a way to store it electronically at the competitions - I think 818 had a total of two laptops, neither of which were supposed to be used by students. We didn't have any computer access while we were at the WestMI Regional. If the database does come into existence, do you need help developing a paper version? It would be great for teams with limited resources, and if we have a standardized form, teams could print off extras and hand them out to those who need them.

Believe it or not, I'm serious...

ok... I hate vB & the img limit. :)

I had a great post, but i put too many :) in my last post, so it didn't get posted and then IE didn't save it. Oh well....

Summery:

A) Open source - a must :)
B) Different collections - a must
C) Use a common format for export/import - Yup... XML


I'm going to make another thread where people can throw up their ideas... no idea is wrong & all will be included in the beginning. These might also be called "goals" of this project. I'll take all the ideas here and put them in my first post. Then as more ideas get added, i edit my first post to keep a running list. Also, ideas may be mutually exclusive, but that's ok for now. :)

Lastly, this forum is only named the FIRST Scouting Network for now until we "name" this. Once we do, I'll have it changed.

So.. Start the juices flowing... This system will only be as good as we make it.

Jack & The Average FIRST Scouter