Theres no need to close this thread....Rick made the poor choice of venting in the wrong thread in the wrong fashion....I too missed the event because of finals but I dont see the point of this little squabble. The event is over and done with (o and we happened to win to....thanx 131 and 134!!!!!). I heard the food was great and cheap (one of those rare things at FIRST events huh. All in all I missed a great event. I wont miss it next year though, you can be sure of that!!!

Re: MY COMPLAINTS
 

Ricksta121:

It doesn't help your point to have the following in your sig.

"Our first match at BAE; Announcer: "And there goes 138, that was brutal......a brutal flip"

11 Brutal Flips and counting"

If you're going to be proud of your flips, then you're opening yourself and your team up to either being disqualified or not allowed to participate until you change your robot so that it doesn't flip others so easily. As I'm sure you remember, Wildstang had those 2 wedges on their robot, but while competing they tried to do everything possible not to flip other robots when they drove up their ramps (even though they could lift the ramps, or just move forward a little and flip their opponent). They also never bragged about having x numbers of "Brutal Flips." It doesn't matter to observers (and referees, being people who watch mathes, count as observers) that you tried to help them back up in this instance, because people have seen your robot's actions and your (Ricksta121) unprofessional bragging about flipping other robots. If you hadn't been so publicly proud of your flips, and so vociferously complained about refereeing as pertains to your robot you wouldn't have had so many problems. Really quickly let me add that if my robot had been flipped by a team known for flipping robots I would have complained to the referees, and then visited your pit to have a quick chat. I wouldn't have been as animated as the person you described in your post, though. I would have remained professional. You've made a name for yourself and your 2003 robot, you only have yourself to blame. Learn from this and don't repeat these mistakes next year.

Well, Sean, I did ask for all comments. While I would love it if everyone had nothing but good to say about Rally, that isn't the case. There were obvious problems with it, I was hoping people would point them out.

About the refs- They were fill in's and there were only 4 at that. We had several others who for various reasons had to bow out at the last moment, leaving us scrambling for refs. So, most of them were pulled off of 95 and given a quick crash course in reffing and sent out on the field (part of the reason we never worked well- everyone was filling in for others). Some had never been to a FIRST event. It was tough for everyone, the refs espically.

Now, in defense of the refs:

121, a lot of bots ended up flipped when against you. I think we can all agree on that. Something about your robot lends it's self to tipping bots, and some were getting damaged because of it. People were complaining about it and the ref's didn't want to have damaged bots or to have to disable someone (121), because that was to difficult a call to make on the spot. So they had 121 remove the wedge to prevent any damage to other robots and the possibility of making an on the spot DQ.

I'm sorry you guys had a bad experience, The refs did their best to make a fair call and stick to the rules as best as possible. I think given the situation, they did fine. Its not as if they were out to get you guys, they just wanted to avoid DQing you or seeing a bot knocked out of finals because of a flip.

As for someone from another team yelling at you, I'm really sorry about that. We really hate to see our event turned into a controversy, and teams arguing amongst each other just makes it even worse. I'm sorry this stuff happened, I really am. We really feel bad that you were coming all the way up here just for an off season event and you had a sour time.

I do hope you come back next year.

-Andy A.

PS, blame the cables on FIRST, they sent us plenty of 25 pin male to males, but no 15 pin male to males arggg! Not to mention never bothered to give us the password to the scoring database.

edit: silly spelling and such fixed

First all Rick's comments might be a little harsh, but are not discouraging by any means.

1. The control field was really not 95's fault. FIRST send them the field on Friday, so they had very few time to play with it, and give it a couple of test runs. They found out that the scoring systems had a password, and I think that they improvised very nicely, considering the time restraints.

2. The judges are volunteers, they are not paid, and they are taking their own Saturday off to judge. They made a bunch of lousy calls (In and against our favor). However you have to realize that most of them were Hockey Refs, and they try to judge as best as they could.

3. The reason we are most likely not coming back up to Rally, is not because we hate it, but because it is a 3+ hour drive away. Our adult volunteers get tried when they have to drive so long especially so early in the morning. Eventually it gets to you.
My team has had only positive things to say about the event.

4. What I did not like though was that an adult in the denim shirt bashing us in the middle of finals. He made a lot of crude and vulgar remarks, mouthing words to us, and I think gave us the middle finger. At first I thought he was from 501, but I really don't know what team he went on. What I especially didn't like was people talking behind our backs in private rooms telling us about our past (97 era) and saying other negative things. Be in mind though that 95 had nothing to do with it, and wasn't their fault that some people decided to be un-gracious. So you can't really blame the competition. I think Ricks comments was with all the crud we had to put up with at the end. Rally was a very good competition, and I would recommend it to everyone.

Honestly if you don't know what "Graciously Professional" means then you shouldn't be in FIRST... I'm sorry but FIRST isn't about winning... You should look into what it does mean...

I was at the event but unfortenlty missed the event in question. However I talked to a number of people at the event after the fact and most people were very much upset at the device 121 had on the front of their robot. They only saw it as a flipping mechanism and we all know 121 has experience in flipping other robots from years past. I believe the anger was well focused. And everyone knows who yelled at the drive team. If you don't your not a true FIRST-a-holic. Cya all.

Come on rick!
 

Hey rick, I know there were problems with taking off the wedge, which is understood, but really, how can you criticize the refs? there are VOLUNTEERING!! o, to other teams, i know rick brags way too much about all our team's flips, but we built our robot to win, not be "friendly". if everyone built "friendly" robots this competition would be more boring than english class. sometimes the drivers of our team (me, rick sometimes) are a little agressive. In BAE i was warned about going after other robots, so in future matches, i waited for the other teams to come to us. if they want to get on the ramp, they should avoid the wedge (which, i might add, is not powered in any way, and can't actually lift up) and drive around us, if they can't and don't want to get damaged, stay away from us and the ramp when were on it. like rick said, it's designed to elimate a surface for teams to push, and so far it's a simple solution to allow us to control the wedge. much more simple, and less likely to break than complicated suction devices, and arms. if other teams' have effective ramp control methods, than congrats, as for us, the ramp is our simple solution to a problem. i think thats what engineering is all about; finding the most simple/ effective solution to a complex problem

Re: Come on rick!
 

Your team has consistently shown the worst attitude about FIRST I have ever seen.

Congratulations.

Re: Come on rick!
 

Walking the fine line...
 

Hi all,

Being in the middle of the whole ordeal, I have made a few observations. I think that first of all, all sides need to realize that this was a complete no-win situation for the refs. The tipping rule when it comes to wedge robots walks such a fine line, that its impossible to come out of it with everyone being happy at the same time. On one hand, wedges can be viewed as mechanisms that are made to maliciously tip other robots. We saw it happen at various competitions. The second viewpoint would be that viewpoint of the wedge teams (like my own team) who built the wedge as a wall removal device. At the beginning of the year, my team was so nervous about running into the so-called "Beatty play" where the robot takes complete control over the center of the field, restricting movement, and winning the match every time, that we decided it was more important to build a wedge to remove robots who anchored themselves to the top surface of the ramp. Now, the refs have to make a call on this fine line at each and every competition. Different competitions will call it different ways. With that in mind, I want to remind everyone that the referee's job is truely the most difficult job of anyone. They have to make the toughest decisions, and they have to take the brunt of the contraversy that may surround them. In the head ref's mind, he wanted to do what he felt was the best situation for all parties. He felt that it was important to draw the line on tipping at the competition, while at the same time not DQ'ing 121 for something they had been doing all year. In actuality, the decision hardly made anyone happy, but if you really look at it, it was probably the most middle of the road decision you could possibly make, even if it wasn't consistant with the rules FIRST had followed most of the year. What it does come down to, is the biggest rule of them all...the referees decision is final...afterall, it is the toughest position to hold out there. So, try not to blast the refs too much...we have it easy compared to them. As for the wedges, its going to be important for all offseason competition organizers to clarify and draw the line for the robots of that type before any competition starts.

Finally, as for people getting heated as a result of the actions on the field, I think that it is important for everyone to remember that this is just a game afterall...try your best to remember the big picture of everything when things like this come up. In the longrun, its better for everyone that way.

Peace,
Andy Grady

KevK- You are absolutly right... It was a nice dessign but you were more than a little agressive... In most of your matches you ended up chasing your opponent and tried to get the wedge under them... I have video proof too... And when you did get the wedge under them you released their grip but kept driving and pushing them across the field until they flipped...

Ok Ricksta congratulations on once again killing a thread.

First off a read your own sig. You guys take pride in maliciously attacking robots. You have for a while everysince Rumble in the Rock.

Lets take a walk down memory lane shall we....

Rumble at the Rock 1999?
Final 88vs121
You couldn't beat us, you couldn't handle us. So what do you do you come running up at us and tip us over. No regards for safety we were extended fourteen feet in the air. Congratulations on that win really you deserved it.

Battlecry at WPI 3
Finals 237and 173vs. 121 and 190?
Lets see your winning by an obscene amount oh and lets go and tip over RAGE. Fine you do that whatever oh lets DRAG THEM INTO THE SCORING zone too uncalled for.

Season 2003
All year we have been on your hit list. Everytime we are nearing the ramp you come charging up wedge ready to go. Unfortunately for you we haven't tipped yet. All I have to say is bring cuse when you do we got a little surprise coming for you in our arm being buried through your lexan.

121 its simple really your playing battlebots in a game where its unappropriate. If your action continues than teams will react and the game will deteoriate. You are already hated (yes I mean hated) among many teams in FIRST due to your views, conducts, and playing style in FIRST. You value bringing home trophies as your priority where it should be more about the experience. What appauls me further is how you continue to come on Delphi and bash people for telling your team they aren't playing by the rules. You guys break the rules live with them and if you continue you will be lucky to find a place to play in the offseason.

To quote you Ricksta
BUT WHAT REALLY GOT ME ANGRY was some guy from 88. He was an adult who had the nerve to come to me and my drive team and start yelling at us. Now you can say this post isnt gracious, but what that guy did was uncalled for. He said we were purposefully damaging other teams when all we were doing was playing the game.

So even without a wedge we won the whole thing. So just to spite some of you jealous poeple we're adding another wegde on our "piece of blank" (according to what that guy said. Think before you talk next time guy)

you made this post very personal now between your team and my team. That jerk that came over and told your team to take off the wedge was Mr. Morrison or known to the rest of FIRST as Moe. He is one of the leaders of FIRST and has more wisdom and knowledge of FIRST than you can dream or hope for. Now I wasn't at Rally in the Valley due to a personal last minute oblegation but I can tell you one thing Rick I was suppose to be the head ref. And lemme tell you one thing if I say you, GaelForce, or any other team flip over one robot once you get a warning. You do it again that part of your robot is going off I don't care what strategical excuse you come up with to merit its use. I've been in FIRST long enough to know what is malicious and what is acceptable. I've seen the footage of Rally and that is maliciously the stuff done in the past was malicious. Ricksta how about before you come on the boards think how much flak you are going to take before you start talking cuse its seems to be a constant theme. You come on you get yelled at by all of FIRST and then the thread closes. I'm so angry right now I'm going to stop typing and I apologize for going off but the things said but 121 openly warrant a post like this. Brandon if you want to close this thread go ahead

HEY!
 

Todd,(and any other poster) you need to watch what you say on these forums. If you want to vent DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. This is not Jerry Springer where you can say what you want. We are suppose representing a great organization (FIRST)...and your teams. Please just calm down before you post. Take if from someone who has made that mistake before. Good Luck to all teams attending off season comps. Let the competition do the talking.

Volunteer refs....
 

So, we all agree...leave the refs alone...there is NO place to hide once the day starts. Let us turn this thread back to something positive..( I think all sides have been heard).

Any of the teams putting on events would love to have a LIST of refs to call upon. Let us start the list of qualifications....

1. You must have first hand knowledge of the game that year (if you were on a team back in '97 and you want to jump back in, reffing without knowing the game is not a help to anyone

2. Be able to say and believe that yesterday is gone...I do not care if a team ran over your grandmother's toe with its robot last year. A ref or umpire or other game official must never enter a game with the intent of getting even with a team or teaching them the "real rules' of FIRST.

3. Love FIRST and the things that it stands for.

I would be willing to keep a list of volunteer refs in the New England area and share the list with all interested teams.

If you know of other qualifications, post them. If you are interested in joining the Ref team, email me at dkelso@attbi.com.
I had fun last weekend, and I would have had fun if we did not win. MY greatest concern is that there are more events and we need not drag this on.

Thanks...