Note: This post was written by Christina Alzona and Joe Ross, because it takes both of our brains to be able to understand and respond to the above post


Like Ken said, it's great to be able to hold discussions on chiefdelphi without arguments.

First off, it sounds like you've discovered one of the great truths (or is it dirty secrets) about human beings, that we are lazy. You've also discovered that we are set in our ways. When you look at the world with those realizations, you get a much better understanding of why the world is the way that it is. You also realize that the world will never be Utopia. You can always work to make it better, closer to Utopia, but until every human on the planet isn't lazy and stubborn, we won't make it.

It also sounds like we have different interpretations of what Dean, Woody, and Dave Lavery mean when they say they want to change the culture. We take it as a limited goal. They want to make sure that every student will have the chance to be exposed to engineers and engineering practices. Only then can someone decide if engineering is the right career goal for them. This still causes a change in the culture, because currently, there are many people who don't have any idea what an engineer really does. This is what breaks down stereotypes about engineers. When you say that you want to change the culture, it seems that you want to break down all stereotypes, all barriers, and all inequality. This is most certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but not what we believe to be the goal of FIRST.

You're right, starting a team at college isn't easy and it isn't for everyone. We chose to go to college. It was not required, unlike high school. Because of this, grades are important. The question becomes, do you go to college for FIRST or to become an engineer? We chose to go to RIT because it's a good school, with good programs, and because the coop program it hosts can be a wonderful opportunity. We felt that these allow us to become better engineers. When we went to RIT, the fact that they had a FIRST team was a motivator, but it is most importantly an extra-curricular activity. We pay tuition to get a good education and that is why we follow their class schedule. FIRST is a wonderful program and doing it in college is a wonderful experience. School comes before robotics. When you pay a private school's tuition for your education (even though RIT is relatively low), you better believe we're going to try to get good grades and get everything we can out of our classes. Our tuition goes towards our classes not towards robotics. By choosing to put our classes before FIRST, you might argue, we are limiting our potential to change the world. That may be so, but by choosing to put FIRST before our education, we are also limiting our potential. FIRST as itself should change the world without hurting our engineers...and by having people believe FIRST is more important their education, it's going to hurt our future engineers.

What makes a college run team different then a corporate run team (at the same high school)? It gives the college students an experience that they probably won't get elsewhere. So why then should college students start new teams? To benefit themselves (add greedy to the list of human characteristics). If someone chooses not to start a team, should they be berated? No, rather they should be thanked for putting in whatever time they do. Do you tell someone who volunteers one night a week at a soup kitchen that they should be volunteering every night a week, and complain to the world that they don't?

The Robot Chicks Union is very important in FIRST. You said yourself, "FIRST is aimed at those girls on your team. They don't know anything about mechanics, or electricity, or programming, or machining. They have no interest in it, either. They're perfect candidates for FIRST." This is why we need the RCU. The RCU isn't there to scream out "girls are inferior!" They are there because it is easier for a girl to join a robotics team when they don't feel so out of place. You can not deny that there are generally less girls on a FIRST team. They're not trying to alienate people but trying to show the minority that it's okay to do something new. The RCU doesn't bring up the new idea that robotics is generally a guy related activity, this is already known. They are there to say it's okay to want to do this if you're a girl. The RCU is there for the girls that are afraid of going into a male oriented club or organization. And there will always be the people that believe girls are inferior to guys when it comes to engineering and robotics and that's also why the RCU is here. The RCU was an incredibly good idea, like a miniature version of SWE.

If you want to change the culture in the way that I believe that you do, why chose FIRST? NOW, NAACP, ACLU, and LGBTA (and hundreds more) all have significant cultural barriers to overcome. If you were to choose another organization (say a model railroad group) you would find similar resistance to changing cultural principals. If you want to make the world more tolerant, you might have better luck working with one of the above organizations. If you want to make the world more tolerant of engineers, then FIRST is the right place.

Christina Alzona / Joe Ross

Yeah we will become non lazy. We just need something to light a fire underneath our pants. I have a theory but.... It is kind of grim.

First of all I would like say I am proud to have M. Krass and Ken L. speaking out and representing us college students so eloquently. As a relative unknown on CD I have been reading this thread and have been debating whether to add my piece. So much has been said already that echoes many of my own thoughts and feelings. I guess the first place to start so you have a better idea where I am coming from is to tell you a bit about my FIRST experience. (I know this thread is a lot of reading so you may skip the next 2 paragraphs if you wish. They give some quick insight into my FIRST experience so far. Bear with me on this; I’ll keep it short)

I started my FIRST journey in 1998 at Ely High School in Pompano Beach, FL on Team 132. The first year our team consisted of approximately 15 students and one teacher and a perpetually drunk machinist sponsor. During build period we worked night and day building our robot for the competition, but not much else. There was a team structure and the team’s spirit was great however all the other elements that make FIRST what it is were missing for me in high school. With literally no engineering mentorship I now find that, and believe, that it is a must have for any team. Now don’t get me wrong, a team can be student run and student built and still be successful, however I know looking back I would have liked more mentorship and guidance when I was in high school. (Oh by the way, we did eventually drop him as a sponsor after incidents involving alcohol at the competition.)

That said, I still enjoyed the program so much that I and another student from my high school went to Georgia Tech and began the process of starting what was then to be the only team in the state. I must admit that a large part of my reason initially for starting a team was to try to give to those students an opportunity I thought I had missed out on. This as you can probably guess is not the right mentality. A small team was formed in 2001 at a local, predominantly minority, school consisting of a handful of high school student a teacher and a small group of eager college mentors. In short, the first year was a failure and a success wrapped in one. We had pushed so hard to start a team (got the funding and everything through Tech) that even though early on when we realized that the teacher did not want to put the time in to help run the team we continued to pushed forward. The team did not make it passed its first year and my and a couple other dedicated FIRSTers grades suffered for that semester. This really discouraged me and I spent many months thereafter wondering how a teacher, someone who has the job of inspiring and teaching young minds, could be so blatantly uncaring about the future of their students. So, how could this have been a good thing? The silver lining to this story is that this team and its robot gave us the stepping stone we needed to encourage more participation and involvement from the college itself.

From that experience I learned that no matter how much you want someone to see and feel FIRST the way you do, you cannot force them. All you can do is be a positive influence and let others see the way FIRST can change a person’s life though you.

Fast forwarding to the present day we are up to 15 teams in Georgia and all over the nation and internationally FIRST is growing at an accelerated rate. I believe this growth is indicative of the culture change that M. Krass spoke about even though, I believe, the change is still mostly contained within FIRST circles (teams and their sponsors). Groups such as WRRF are slowly but surely instigating this culture change around their area. All we can do as individuals, teams, or college organizations is to work on making the change in our area, even if that is only reaching out and changing the life of 1 student, parent or mentor who in turn will hopefully continue the cycle.

On the flip side there are some that see this growth and push for more and more teams as a bad thing that will eventually create in essence a watered-down FIRST. This combined with Dean’s push to create a more TV friendly and flashy FIRST has many people worried about where FIRST might be heading. On this I agree with Ken when he made the statement, “One of the more effective ways of accomplishing that is to work with the system, not change the system right away.” Dean is walking a tightrope with FIRST. On one side he is trying to get the public more aware of its existence while at the same time maintaining the essence of what FIRST really about. I think so far he is doing a good job.

Well, I have rambled on enough and I’m not sure I added anything new, but I just thought I’d say hi and add a couple of my thoughts to the pot.

How could we change the culture? I think the question here is what part of the culture you want to change? It is true, that FIRST has not had a profound impact on all areas of our culture as of yet, but there has been some definite change. Let’s look to another area other than gender/educational one talked about earlier.
It is no big secret that society today glorifies violence. Especially in the inner city areas, violence is commonplace and the music, movies, and literature reflects it. (Also, just to clarify things, I am not picking on the inner city. I work as an EMT in the inner city in Los Angeles, and am speaking from personal experience.) FIRST has a growing number of teams from inner city schools now. The students on these teams have a great chance to do something positive despite all the negative opportunities they have around them every day. FIRST always stresses we are to have a higher standard than the society around us and, that "gracious professionalism" should be our guide. Instead of idealizing violence and getting caught in the endless cycle of violence that occurs there every day, the students on the inner city teams learn to strive for something better, something positive, something wholesome. Time and time again, I have heard stories of gang members, teenage mothers, and poor students in inner city areas turning their lives around, going to college, and being on their way to being productive citizens. Their lives have been changed, and, as a result, in a small way the society around them has been changed too. In EMT school our teacher told us "If you save a life, you save the world" I think FIRST is much the same way, "if you change a life, you change the world"

I ususally hate to rain on parades - wait, nevermind, I kind of like it - but it seems like this topic is incredibly redundant.

I mean, its not like people can really do anything at all by making uneducated speculations on FIRST's impact in the world unless they can experience it first hand for every single individual.

Untill one can do that, they will make vague comments on how FIRST changes the culture based on what they personally see and hear. Cool.

Sure, its nice for people to think about these things, I mean to really THINK about it in their spare time. But really the brain power could be used for something much more valuable.

So while we brainstorm a more valuable waste of time I have a question: How many gigabytes of archived posts relating to this topic are on CD? My guess: at least one.

Anyway, yeah word up FIRST is the shiznit and whatever, changed my life, Ill be back next season to mix this boring old forum up.

STeeeeve

“Changing The World” in a wonderful Glittering Generality like “Truth” and “What is Right.” Due to a few million years of awesome evolution, every one of us humans has a different view of what the world is and how it should be changed and what is causes the changes we see. Even if I can't “experience it first hand for every individual,” I'm going to take a shot at sharing my experience and opinions so that maybe someone out there can make an educated decision.

Last year through the help of a few wonderful teachers I joined a team of nerds who had a lot of thoughts and concepts but no idea how to do anything with them from my rival high school (rivals in everything except robotics now) and through the mentoring of Georgia Tech and skyman9000 (we're the team that happened in between the unsuccessful first year and this year”s 15 teams), we learned ACTION and were introduced to FIRST and formed our own opinions on what it was. As a 15-year-old sophomore I started a team at my own high school this year and led another group of nerds with ideas into the realm of action. I can”t find any fun stereotypes that we fall under because we're not in an area with any dearth of engineers or money (my favourite real estate sign: “From the low $1 millions”) but we still couldn't find anyone who would give us money (I know, we didn't try hard enough) and we only found one mentor who taught us more about life than about robots (which is really a good thing, because he was there to be the mentor and I was there to be the teacher.) We didn't make a robot that was all that great; instead we joined a new culture that was not the bored disinterest we have lived with through our childhood, but was rather the truth and drive to make things happen.

The concept of A Culture or The Real World is flawed in today's society because we have enough freedom and resources to support the numerous cultures that co-exist not so peacefully. Many of you have been talking about FIRST at the prime mover for an engineering based culture, but today's cultures are not as much about activities like building robots or playing sports, they are about attitudes and how we go about doing these activities. The “cultures” that many people believe in that are based on such stupid trivial things as the activities we take part in are merely Granfalloons, meaningless restrictions we have placed on ourselves because we think we want or need them. The culture some of you like M. Krass see as the true FIRST which has become tainted is actually self-motivation and moral integrity. The cultures that are being corrupted with are laziness and greed.
Selfish companies trying to use FIRST to further themselves are tainting the teams they use by parading themselves under the ideal that FIRST has become by its creating so many outstanding citizens. Greed on a more personal level is using FIRST and we see it through those who are too worried about winning the competitions for personal glory or by eliminating other mentors as though they were competition.
The culture of sloths is infecting FIRST and creating these teams where the students have no drive to even help with their robot, they just want to see a finished product to put their name on. Through this, some teams face the build as a fun thing to watch rather than a chance to take action and learn by this action.

These two cultures are killing off the strong culture FIRST is by hijacking its altruistic ideas and using it as a vessel for their own filthy ways. What we need to do is not to try to protect the literal parts of FIRST that have created this culture of honor and action and focus on finding other ways to bring gracious professionalism into a position of prominence in our society. FIRST has done what the Boy Scouts once did; it is an institution that trains children who have potential but no direction to be strong adults who can not only figure out how to solve the problems they are faced with, but have the motivation to put these ideas into action.

Through forcing me to teach myself how I want to live my life, FIRST has changed my world and brought me into a culture that I am proud to be a part of will try my hardest to keep honorable. FIRST will continue to change the world through the culture that all of us in this organization are part of so long as we preserve the integrity that we know and spread it to others.

Paul Luffel


P.S: Jeremy, I don't think I got to tell you in person, but you and Anne changed my life.
P.P.S: Through all of the ideas and concepts on this forum, one of you English nerds could probably put together and entire book on the FIRST Philosophies.

Steve, or should I call you STeeeeve?
Listen buddy, and listen good, because I'm only going to say this once. I try really hard not to post things like this, but you have genuinely pushed me over my limit.

Whenever you hear a veteran of this program, talking about how "things are changing". They are talking about YOU. Whenever you hear a mentor complaining about too much negativity on ChiefDelphi, they are talking about YOU. Whenever you hear someone say things like "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" they are talking to YOU.

I strongly believe, that we'd all be much better off, if people like you would just shut up, and listen. This forum is filled with a lot of brilliant engineers, and all kinds of people enthusiastic about teaching. Just imagine if for one second, you'd LISTEN to them. Imagine what you could learn! I mean, how old are you? 15, 16? You might think you know everything there is to know... but YOUR FREAKING WRONG! I'll share something with you, that my father taught me from an early age: "You listen with your ears, not with your mouth".

What makes you think WE want YOU to "mix this boring old forum up"? Why would WE want YOU to come in here, and stir up trouble, start pointless debates, and fill this forum with mindless negativity?

Why would you EVER chime into a discussion, to say you think the discussion is pointless?

Ask yourself this...
What happens when you sit down at a job interview one day, and sitting across the table from you is some engineer who's parade you enjoyed raining on?

Who are you to judge the rest of us?
If you don't like the discussions that are going on... STAY OUT OF THEM!

I will not delete this post, or edit it. I will not apologize for my harsh words. I'm sick and tired of seeing things like this go on.
ChiefDelphi IS changing... and if people like Steve here are the future, I'm not sure I like it.


John

Brandon - do as you will.

STeeeeve-

Like John said, maybe you should read a little before you post negatively. There are a plethora of good, knowledgeable people out there willing to help, but they are all turned away by negativity like yours.

I won't go on a long rant here, i'll just request that you and anyone else who thinks about posting think about what they are saying, and if they would say something like that to their grandparents, or their boss... treat everyone as if they are very important people, since many of the people who read these forums are just that.

Tom

I stand behind John and Tom on this matter.

I am the first to speak up for all views to be heard - when they bring something worthwile to the conversation. That's not to say they have to agree with everyone's comments, but be of substance on their own. You came charging into this thread like a bull in a china shop.

Granted, I've not been around this forum in an awfuly long time now, but there are reasons why. And you are one of the most glaring examples of a reason to stay away I've seen in a good while.

I imagine a few more years and a dose of life will show you exactly where John and I come from on this end.

Brandon, do what you will, but I implore you not to delete John's comment. From what I've seen lurking around, it's more than time for someone to say something in situations like this.

~ lora

I'd just like to say, Bravo, John!! You're always good at saying what needs to be said. I won't go on and on, but I agree with what you said. No editing is in order, in my mind. It's what I've thought all along, just phrased a little better than I would've put it.

This thread is doing a wonderful job of showing some of the changes FIRST has undergone. We have the example of the student who does not see a goal to be obtained, just a fun journey. After that we have the strong mentor who chastises him and realizes what they are doing through this and merely put forth their ideas and don"t consider themselves the ultimate view of what is right. Once this strong view is presented, several people show up not to go further and explain goal or ideals to the misguided student who has just been reprimanded, but rather to yell at them more and then go even further and say that John is exactly right, which even he acknowledges is not true. As he stated at the end of his post "Brandon - Do as you will." he knows that what he says is not proper in a conversation of peers, but is necessary to show the student the error of his ways. John"s post pleases me greatly that someone I respect and look up to would take action, but the people after him who just chime in to say "yay!" and not add anything to the discussion are nearly as guilty as Steve at tainted the idea of FIRST. In a discussion about how FIRST has fallen from the path of righteousness and how that should be changed, a perfect example springs up as to how it has fallen and also a perfect chance to help rectify this has come up. By continuing what John has started, those of you who believe he has done the right thing in correcting Steve could have gone on to teach Steve what is right rather than just commending John on his initial confrontation.
We students may do foolish things, but that"s why people under he age of 18 are minors with limited rights. When ever we mess up, we need you mentors to tell us that what we did is wrong, just like John did, but we also need the others of you to teach us what is right, rather than just telling us not to do it again. Just like the anti-drug campaign, people don"t need to be told once more that drugs are bad, rather they need something to do [i]instead/I] of drugs.
Any suggestions as to what we can do to be better FIRSTlings?

Some things just need saying. Thank you, John.

If ignorance is bliss, STeeeeve here must be in seventh heaven.
As always, we appreciate your opinion, we (being the assumed collective of FIRST individuals) don't agree.

You are what I'm working against, you are what I fear that FIRST will turn to without guidance or work, and you are the exact type of uninformed person that places like CD dread.

in respond to STeeeve's message
 

You are right, STeeeeve, we will never experience what FIRST does to every single individual first hand. But uneducated speculation? That’s a little over the line, don’t you think? I suppose since your human body limit you to experience everything first hand only in your body, you should never believe what anyone ever tell you. After all, they are just “uneducated speculations”, right?

Now, if you cannot believe anything non-first-hand, I guess you never listen to your parents, teachers, friends, neighbors, cousins, relatives, and robotics teammates. Cool.

Sure, it’s nice that you take such an interesting position in your life, and take your precious time off your tight schedule of intellectual exploration and truth finding. But why are you wasting your time posting to educate us when you can spend every second you used typing that message to go experience the world first hand?

So while I brainstorm a more valuable waste of time trying to reply to your message, I have a question of my own: Why would a person as intelligent as you could come in here and done nothing worthy of that description?

But I doubt you are around anymore to see what we have to say about your message, since you will “be back next season to mix this boring old forum up”. Such a brave thing to do: just come in here, post a message undermining everyone’s effort to share a part of themselves, and run away.

You see, STeeeeve, through out my years in FIRST, I’ve experienced many phases a FIRSTer would go through in first person. That include joining a high school team, graduating high school, going to college, doing FIRST during college, volunteering at events, teaching workshops, running off season competition, etc etc etc. Every year I see high school students graduating, inspired and motivated about going to college, wanting to do more with their lives then they’ve ever been. And that’s as close as you can be to experiencing FIRST first hand.

I can tell you the above messages are far from uneducated speculations. All of us have poured our heart and soul into this program, and everyone of us is worthy of writing a book worth of material about FIRST. But since you can NEVER experience what we’ve been through in first hand, I suppose you will never understand. But that doesn’t really matter, does it? I don’t know about others, but I do FIRST because I think it’s the right thing to do. I never do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don’t do it to impress you.

Everyone in here is trying to share what they think about something important to them, and trying to learn what others have to say about it. It’s a truly stimulating intellectual experience. But you have to come in here, interrupt the discussion with your observations, and make people waste time to respond to your unconstructive message…

I thought every human being is capable of showing a little respect to others... I guess I am wrong.

STeeeeve, I thank you for showing people what not to do, and hope your journey in life is as satisfying and stimulating as ours are.


I apologize for sinking to Steeeeve’s level when I write this. But I said what have to be said, in my opinion, just like John, Tom, Lora, Jeff, Paul, and Amanda.

I think it’s time we all step back a little bit, think about what’s being said, and try not to disrupt this discussion any further. This forum provides a friendlier, meaningful, and focused conduit for participants in FIRST to connect and communicate on the internet. This board is for discussion, fact finding, and encouragement for the FIRST community. Let’s keep it that way, and nothing more.

I was really enjoying this posting...
 

I was really, really enjoying the exchanges and ideas of this posting until post#19 by Steeeeve.

Steeeeve, in a couple of years I think you may change your view about alot of things.

:(

This is one of the best postings I've ever read.
:)

I have watched the program with a reverence and respect since my first nationals experience while traveling with my sister's team. Sure the competition was great, amazing machines, huge flashy teams, can't beat the X-Cats banner ;) The overwhelming mixed feelings of need and amazement towards technology in the world and technology adapted by the students could not have been experience by just me. And then I got to the awards ceremony... Wow, I had never been so moved in my life. I wasn't even on a team and I was already ready to go out and build bridges, build robots, build a new world. 5 years later, 5 years of personal and team problems and I'm still here. Why am I coming back next year? The same reason many weathered firsters do, for the future. My 14-year old brother. I have been bringing him in to FIRST during the build sporadically. I'll show him the robot, show him whatever I'm working on, show him how to square up on part on the mill. My brother has an amazing mind despite the fact that he is labeled LD because of problems he has with reading. He needs to know what he can do with his mind. He is a whiz with math, observant, a quick learner. All he needs is someone to show him that he *can* do it. He *can* become an engineer no matter how many labels are put on him. That's why we keep on coming back. To help make a better tomorrow,to prevent out mistakes from happening again, to help our youth feel the same inspiration as we did. Isn't that worth the work? Next time you're disappointed with the program, people, even society- Think of my brother, a rookie on your team, an amazing kid without a team in his/her area. Thank you to all of the mentors, You ARE changing the future.