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Project Lead The Way!
As the name states this thread is about PLTW the Pre-Engineering course for highschool, located out of Clifton Park, N.Y.
The questions i have are: -whos heard of it? -who has it in their school? -what classes have you taken (if any)? -also what experiance have you gotten from it? -What would you say to others thinking about taking any of the classes? Heres the website for PLTW http://www.pltw.org ~Mike |
It's offered in our school.
I thought about taking it and then realized that it wasn't a really good use of time. I mean, first year, they teach you technical drawing on Autocad Inventor... Well, that program isn't really worthy of 1 year to teach (along with some basic lessons in drawing style and technique) especially when you can just grab the robotics' teams copy and learn it. 2nd year is digital electronics and that's something I competed in and knew enough about. I wes thinking about taking Computer Integrated Manufacturing (CIM) in 11th grade this fall but then I just got a copy of mastercam and have started learning to use it... I get PLTW is a good course for people with little engineering background and who want to learn the basics. However, for someone who is pursuing a technical engineering field, the course is probably not too useful if you can do robotics instead :) ... Or motivate yourself to do it at home. |
We have it at our school. This was our first year in the program. I did not take any of the classes because of scheduleing conflicts. This program changed our electronics classes to digital electronics, our CAD classes used both AutoCAD and Inventor ( i think). Thats all that I can contribute.
Eric |
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~Mike |
Don't let monsiercoffee let you down about PLTW, Dez... it is a great program.
Kokomo HS adopted the program about 3 years ago and it was the first school in Indiana to do so. No, there are over 50 Indiana schools with PLTW. As you know, it is not a dumbed-down alternative to a robotics team, as implied above. It is a foundation of basics for many types of engineering, and students need that. PLTW provides students with courses similar to the "intro to engineering" courses that many colleges have. For our team, the students in the Inventor class get through their projects pretty quickly, and then they start working on FIRST stuff (heh... the teacher is on the team, and he has read these Forums for 4-5 years now). So even the motivated students can take the course, get ahead, and work on FIRST-team related stuff in their class time. Heck, if people can take home a master-cam program and learn it on their own, I suppose that they can also take home a Calculus book and memorize it too. It dosen't necessarily mean that they know how to use what they are learning. They should still take the class. PLTW is one of the best technical, curriculum-based programs that has come along for high schoolers. I have attended many PLTW recruiting sessions and see that teachers are as excited about this program as the students are. Kudos to Shenendoah HS and others for making this nation-wide program a success. Andy B. |
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I'm a "Shen" alum, so I should probably correct you Andy. I took the PLTW tech curriculum (at the original school) and it was great. It certainly gives you a taste of engineering, and teaches you some practical skills to help you out as you progress through engineering. I've worked for 3 summers as a CAD draftsman, due in part to my PLTW experience. |
PLTW is a new thing to Northwest Indiana. Gavit High in Hammond Indiana, have adopted the program. This coming up school year will be the first year for the program in our school system. I received a letter today that I was accepted. Myself and another member of our robotics team were the only present high schoolers that were accepted. PLTW which is a four year program is meant to be a pre-engineering course. Our school in partnership with Purdue University Calumet have raised the millions of dollars to cover the expense of this program. Our school (Gavit) is the first school out of the district that have adopted this program, and have covered the expenses.
What our school has done is take resume's off all incoming freshman and reviewed their records to see who would be most applicable for this type of program. The PLTW program in my mind are for people that are looking to be in the engineering field. What our school has done is partnership with Purdue University Calumet to offer a advanced curriculum, along with state of the art lab settings. In addition we have had one of our teachers at Gavit go through the training to become a PLTW teacher. Our Gavit teacher along with many professors at Purdue will work together in an in-lighting lab to better benefit the selected students. What was interesting was the outpouring of people who wanted to become part of this program. The program which was offered only to advanced students. I have met with all of the people involved in our local PLTW program, and it is truly a great addition to any school system. From what I have talked about with many of the mentors and professors at Purdue Calumet, it appears to be a great program for those looking to further their learning in the field of engineering. Another great addition to our program is that since it begins before regular school hours, you can get the credit without missing out on any other school credits. We have also worked out in the partnership that PLTW in Hammond will also count as a college credit. This way if you attend college at Purdue you will have many of you're intro classes out of the way. I would recommend PLTW to every school district that sponsors FIRST teams. The program takes FIRST one step further, right into the classroom. |
I think this upcoming school year will be the first time PLTW has been offered at Perry Meridian. I will be taking the class along with a few of my teammates.
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We just started an engineering charter school in the tech department of my high school this last year. The curriculum was a home brew but things went well. We know what works- and what does not. Our teachers will be attending a training session this summer for the Project Lead the Way. The program will be in effect this school year. I got the chance to look through some of the brochures and saw the video at one of our board meetings. Looks interesting, I am intrigued and looking forward to being a part of it.
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As Greg said, the School City of Hammond is integrating Project Lead the Way in their curriculum this school year. I believe 50 kids from the entire city were admitted based on previous experience, skills, and interest. Purdue University is working with the school city to help these kids acquire basic skills while still in high school.
My brother, Andrew, and Greg - both members of 71 - have been admitted to this program. My brother is very excited about what he will learn throughout this school year and is eager for the next school year to begin. I think it is very exciting for a kid his age - taking off from school every morning to go to Purdue University, learn about things that you think are fun, and applying that knowledge during the next build season of FIRST. Although I do not take to the technical side of FIRST, it makes me happy to see someone his age being offered this program. I hope many students benefit from PLTW. |
Our school is currently in the process of adopting the PLTW curriculum, starting with my class(class of 2005). I really enjoy the classes so far, but since we’re the guinea pigs we’ve encountered some problems with the teachers adjusting to the curriculum and not quite understanding what they needed to cover and what we already knew from other classes. We’re going through the classes in a slightly weird order though. We did IED in 9th grade, CIM and POE in 10th, then DE for 11th and EDD for 12th. Its not all that different though since we take Physics as sophomores.
And to monsieurcoffee, there’s a LOT more to CIM than MasterCAM. That program is pure evil, we only spent a week or two on it before our teacher decided there were better things to do in class. |
Heh, I took the DDP course this year for my fine art credit.. like Yan said above, it was def NOT worth a year.. or even half a year.. I seriously learned nothing in that class that I didn't easily teach myself. And most of the people in my class played games..
I'm taking Digital Electronics next year. I'm, um, not quite sure why... I'm even giving up half a year of lunch to take it :D |
i guess its just your teacher yan and Kristen... I have heard only praise from Ithaca but i guess the ddp teacher isn't at par, well all i can say is wait for DE and take the class... I took it and learned allot (even from Abrham Michalins labs) though thats all another story... Keep all your response coming, I'm hoping to have enough responses after some time here, that i will forward to a pltw official and show them the praise and/or the constructive criticism from here...
~Mike |
Andy Baker: I stated my experience with the class and also the experience of my many friends who have taken it and asked themselves the question, "wtf did I just do that for?". In no way did I mean to imply (did I?) that the PLTW situation in our high school is what all PLTW courses are like in other schools. However, the curriculum is the same and looking through it, I found that I either knew it or could experiment with it during some free time rather than devoting a year-long course to it. The analogy of taking up a calculus book and memorizing it seems somewhat harsh. One does not become smart by memorizing and I don't learn the PLTW curriculum by reading the huge textbooks which are never finished by the class. In my free time, I will have fun working with electronics, machining, or as I mentioned, looking at how mastercam works and then taking the time to go and do it for myself. Without doing anything, those memorized facts dissipate as fast as the sunshine here in Ithaca :)
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My opinion still stands that the course is not a worthwhile pursuit for anyone doing robotics (considering how motivated and dedicated you have to be to work hard for 6 weeks) but may be for some people who have no engineering experience. However, even those people without any experience also seem to find the courses easy. I spend many of my free periods in the tech rooms (to work on robotics) and I note that people are rarely at work, and if they are yelled at enough to actually do some work, they do it quickly. I think PLTW would be a much better course if it required more out of the students. Otherwise, as Kristen mentioned, the students just play games, talk, and listen to music. Now, that may suggest to you that the teachers can't control the class and to a certain extent, I find that true. But even when work is handed out, the people in the course whisper or put on their headphones. The situation of PLTW at our school is as mentioned, and that is what dez250 seems to be asking about. I cannot tell dez250 whether he'll have a wonderful experience at his school with PLTW or whether he'll be bored like us. But in any case, that is my experience and Kristen's (I won't vouch for anyone else's but I can track down more people if you'd like further testimonies of class experiences) and it is not a worthy one. |
i want to state one thing before furthering with this thread, that is that i have been through all but on PLTW course, and that is the EDD course which i will be taking next year. What it sounds like is your class(es) are not properly thought, i am not saying its a bad class or a bad teacher or a bad school, but the pltw courses have thought everyone i know who took them allot, even i will go to say that we have had our professional engineers work with the students after school sometimes during robotics with POE problems and they said that they remember stuff like that from after college and in the real world. i may be going out on a long shot here but it sounds like you (yan) ha vent taken any class other then DDP through PLTW.
~Mike Please i don't want this a bickering thread, as i just want some reply as to how you have all come across PLTW and also what you think of it, positive or negative. |
No, in fact, I didn't take any PLTW courses officially after interviewing some of the people who had taken them when I was in 8th grade. I sat in on the DDP course the first year during lunch and sat in on the electronics and also ddp during my free period this year. The course is taught fine, but I don't think it moves fast enough. But that's my opinion. For CIM next year, I've pretty much covered most of the stuff. The previous CIM guy (GregT) will be going off to RIT and not too many people next year will actually know how to use it (though quite a few will be taking the course). So w/e the course may teach, it's not a challenge. I decided to take two AP sciences next year rather than fitting CIM in.
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I do believe that PLTW wasn't meant to cater to everyone's engineering education, but rather to clue others into this field. While it appears that this program wasn't exactly the type that would help you personally, your comments really make it seem as though the class is a waste of time for everyone. I really think a lot of FIRSTers could benefit, but what you've said almost makes it look bad simply because it was below your skill level and for no other reason. Quote:
I wish you would reconsider that statement - apparently there are more people involved in FIRST than you happen to realize that haven't previously had any kind of experience with actual engineering yet (or maybe they choose to have it that way). I don't know if your class was taught within your high school by high school teachers, etc., or how different it will be from the program here taught by Purdue University. Considering what you've mentioned about your program, including playing games in the classroom and other such activities, it seems as though your program is a gross outcast from the norm. Everything that I've heard or seen about PLTW has been successful, and it sounds as though yours was a failure - a failure to inspire the students by using the curriculum. |
like that of amandas post i would like to state that this course is not a program that should be looked at as just another class for joe teacher to come along and teach. PLTW is that of skills of college and it may not be fair for all schools because you may not have college professors teaching some of the classes or as in my case an nuclear engineer. it seems in your some cases the classes may be dumbed down due to a teachers lack of skills in that field. now coffee, i just want to ask if i was to give you a simple 3 throw lamp, could you draw a correct full schematic for that, because auto-cad itself and the DDP course is an introduction to schematics and multi-view and 3d drawings. now you may say PLTW is a waist of your time but as myself going to be a mechanical engineer i think that learning the correct way to measure stress and strain and moments of a bridge and also the basics and equations of thermodynamics may be useful in my future of college and also it gives me a large head start at NO cost (or in some schools a very low cost) of learning college material from a person that is qualified in his field, beyond that of a normal high school or prehigh school teacher , even that of a college professor.
~Mike just my ranting for now. |
any teachers out there?
Our school is looking to adopt PLTW in the next year but we simply cannot find a teacher capable of teaching it. Our current tech teacher/leader retired this year. There are simply no candidates out there to fill his place.
If anyone has a lead on a PLTW capable teacher in the central NJ area please let me know. And for those who have these programs- treasure what you have. WC |
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This program has spread like wildfire across the nation over the past 3-4 years. This is no mistake. It may not be optimal for all students, but it is an excellent program for many, many students who are interested in engineering and/or on robotics teams. Andy B. |
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I can't really speak for the experience of the students who have taken it.. since I come from depths of 'rural Ameirca'. However, some of my fellow teammates come in from a shool in New York State, and they aren't necissarily a significant contribution, however it is noticeable that they tend to grasp engineering concepts a bit better than the students without the classes from PLTW.
For me, I would be more than greatful to have ANY type of technical/technology class even offered to me. The extent that my school offers is a general introduction to Physics applications, and an introductory drafting course. (NOT CAD, drafting.. with paper and a pencil) |
PLTW
Well i've never heard of it. In me school (west islip n.y.) they offer many tech course our newest (starting this year) is called principle of engnieering or POE. POE is going to be the beginners look at all different types of engineering. Which is run by the lead robotics teacher. Our other tech courses consist of Autodesk inventor (CAD) Cisco1,2,3,and 4. Design, Drawing, and production (DDP). There are a whole bunch more but this is all i can think about right now. :cool:
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Lets see: CAD DDP Technical Drawing Electronics Communcation Systems There is a lot more but that is all I can think of. |
lol POE is actually a PLTW class, it was started in the early 90's (pretty sure then) at Shen in Clifton Park. And NYS has tried to start a tech cerriculum but really hasnt, they mainly have adopted the PLTW courses and used them cause they started in the capital region of NYS.
~Mike |
Like Chelly said, our Tesla Engineering Charter School (TECS) will be adopting the PLTW curriculum for the 2003-2004 school year. Even though we will only get the first year of the course, we are still taking it as it seems a worthwhile program. Chelly and I are the student representatives on the TECS board and because of that, we have had a good look at videos, brochures, etc. Everyone involved in TECS, (students, teachers and otherwise) is looking forward to using PLTW! :) We'll let you know how it goes for us after this next school year.
- Katie |
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Don't listen to yan. I find his attitude towards teaching him self funny, expecially since he took a java course.
His perception is of a program with a serious lack of teachers and administrative support. One teacher can not (and should not be expected to) teach 5 completely unique courses. This program is important. There are a large number of people who enter a engineering field thinking it sounds interesting only to find that it's nothing like they expected. They then soon realize that their 5 ap math credits didn't properly prepare them for the college ciriculum they now find themselves taking. This leads to the type of Engineer that has machinists try and hurt him/her. A very important thing people interested in Engineering need to realize is that you can't learn everything from a textbook. I've seen yan try and take a half inch pass with a large endmill through aluminum. It consisted of: Force endmill a mm forward. Wait for smoke to stop. Spray with oil. Continue until aluninum is melted to endmill. Clean endmill with centerpunch and hammer. Continue. The point is experience counts. Experience is one of the things that all the PLTW courses give you. If nothing else, they look great on a college (and job) application and sound very impressive in college essays. Learning to operate a CNC mill is something typically done in the third or fourth year in most college ciriculum, I learned how to operate a CNC mill my thrid year in high school. I took all 5 courses and found each very useful. Greg Oh, yan. Really think you know how to use Inventor? I'll send you a part to draw sometime. |
"One teacher can not (and should not be expected to) teach 5 completely unique courses."
Is that in reference to the fact that our teachers can't teach those courses well? Is one example the fact that you have to teach Mr Peters how to use the CNC? Though the course content and purpose is good, the course is not being taught well at our school. You yourself spend half your time in the course doing robotics. The other half consists of helping the teacher and part of it is also doing the required work (which you know takes very little time). I mean, the class gives you access to tools and material, but how much have you actually learned from the teacher? At DeWitt Middle School, the tech program there has gotten better and better. They just came back from the National TSA Competition in Florida and picked up the most trophies of the last 4 years: 3 first places and 7 finalists (our year we had 1 first and 5 finalists and we're just the only little middle school in NYS going)... The tech course at the middle school is a very good intro to engineering/technology and it is REQUIRED. Thus, it gives everyone a better idea of various technical fields and what courses they want to take in the future. I found that to be a better intro to engineering/technology and I think it was a much better course than the PLTW ones at OUR school. Anyhoo, you know what I think about PLTW at our school. Oh yeah, that Java course was very slow, but the teacher is arguably the best in the state at it and it was a good experience and at least I enjoyed it. Plus, you forget my real motive - suck up to her before I have her very hard calc class next year :) Heh, yeah, that milling incident wasn't for any purpose though :) That was just me and Alex having fun when we were bored... And btw, no aluminum got melted onto the endmill and there was no use of a hammer - just pretty smoke and lots of oil. very fun though :) You should see Nick's aluminum block now... schweet stuff. |
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Project Lead The Way is slowly getting bigger every year in our school. This coming year we'll have an Inventor course offered, and I'm sure more courses are coming in the future. PLTW is in no way "worthless". Even if your school's program may not be up to your standards, I guarantee at least a few people will benefit from it.
Thumbs up to PLTW :) |
Sample Principles Of Engineering Homework Problem from PLTW Class
OK well since I'm bored now i pulled my P.O.E. notebook out from this past school year and got out one of the homework sheets we have, this one being on thermodynamics. The following was the second of 8 questions, which get much harder as they go on, this is a simple single equations question, which my brother just went through in his junior year of college for mechanical engineering at Clarkson University in the class, Fundamentals of heat and mass transfer. The problem is copied as follows:
2.) A wall is made of an outer brick (R=0.3ft[^2]*hr*[degree]F/BTU), a piece of plywood (R=1), 6” of insulation (R=25), an air gap (R=4), and drywall (R=0.5). Calculate the coefficient of thermal conductivity. now i am wondering if anyone that says that P.L.T.W. is not worth the time, can answer that question on their own without looking to the web for help. ~Mike P.S.--> Also this problem is expected to be done in a time frame of 3-5 minuets at max. |
Our county is supposed to start that up next year at one of our HS's... though not mine.
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its been great hearing all your comments, keep them coming!
~Mike |
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that is probablly one of the simpelest questions we got for a homework, if im feeling up to it, maybe in a little while ill put the equation and answer to Q.2 and question 3 which uses that answer to find something else...
~Mike P.S.~Resistivity is = to 1/Conductivity LOL |
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good job adam thats how that question would be done... i will add my work, with answer to Q2 later along with q3 which will show how much you do learn from just one day in POE.
~Mike |
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Q2 answewr with Q3
Here is the work and answer for Question 2, along followed by Q3.
Q2 Answer: R=Coefficient of Resistivity U=Coefficient of Conductivity R=1/U R(total)=R1+R2+R3.... R(total)=(0.3ft[^2]*hr*[degree]F/BTU)+1+25+4+0.5 R(total)=30.8ft[^2]*hr*[degree]F/BTU U(total)=1/30.8ft[^2]*hr*[degree]F/BTU U(total)=.032 BTU/ ft[^2]*hr*[degree]F Question #3 3.) Use the answer to problem 2 to find the heat load on an air conditioner if a house is built of walls like these. The house is 20 feet by 40 feet with 8 foot tall walls, and you may consider the roof has the same construction as the walls (for the purpose of making this problem simpler). Neglect any windows and doors. That question is a 2 part problem, found everyday while trying to find the load on an air conditioner. This type of problem was taught in class over a 3 day span, after learning about thermal conductivity. ~Mike |
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OK lets put this back on track, anyone who has heard of or has interacted with the Project Lead The Way pre-engineering program for high school, please answer the following questions:
The questions i have are: -who's heard of it? -who has it in their school? -what classes have you taken (if any)? -also what experience have you gotten from it? -What would you say to others thinking about taking any of the classes? Anyone can chime in if they want to... ~Mike Project Lead The Way Homepage |
Oops :yikes:
Ment for a nother topic... Musta been the late night time that threw me off :D |
Matt, I think you wanted to reply to another topic...
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our school has had PLTW for 5 years. Im in DE now, and both years have been great. Plus, i get shiny RIT credit :)
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Yes, PLTW is awesome...I just got my report card in the mail from RIT...4 college credits that are transferable in freshman year of hs sounds good to me :)
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Question for this thread - We (476) are looking at proposing the integration of FIRST into a new PLTW group being set up in our VO Tech system here in Oklahoma. We are looking for ideas of what has worked and how this is done.
And also how well do the two integrate together. Any information is appreciated. email rather than posting if you prefer. Ken |
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But ya.. a few things i thought of that you can do are to 1) integrate FIRST material into the regular class schedule. in IED for example, instead of modeling, assembling, and driving a model train.. try a gearbox. 2) in the programable logic array section of DE, get into PIC's and how they work, and how to program them. If you do not know, the RC in the FIRST kit uses a PIC to run the user program and control the robot. Test the programs on the actual RC. Also, you can use the RC for a variety of projects the kids are working on. 3) CNC stuff for the robot in the CIM class. 4) Parallel path things that are being worked on in both programs. just basic stuff like that. For anyone whos PLTW program has been around for 4 years and has had seniors who have been through the whole program and have made their full year senior projects, you know that FIRST is very like pltw. The teachers always tell us how the senior project is very beneficial becuase you go through the whole design process.. from idea concepts to research to prototyping to final product. FIRST does the same thing. I think FIRST is a much better experience tho. But both of them together is great. Oh well i'll stop rambling. |
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My school does fallow the PLTW program, but some of the teachers dont explain things very well. It took about 2 weeks for my teacher to explain forces in POE, but my math teacher 20 minutes. FIRST explained everything that we did. It was alot easier to fallow everything in FIRST.
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in my opinion pltw is great but may of the softwares so hard to use they often times put my computer life in danger
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Our school (High Tech High - San Diego) uses the PTLW curriculum. They offer POE for Juniors and EDD (Engineering Design and Development) for Seniors. Every student at our school must take a semester of POE in order to graduate.
As for the question of how to integrate FIRST and PLTW: Every Senior member of Team 1538 that takes EDD (which at our school is a two-hour long class after lunch) works on FIRST or something that can be FIRST related. During the pre-season students work on prototyping parts and up keeping tools and machinery. For example, one student developed a custom 2-Speed Transmission and gear box. During the build season students work on designing and building our robot. Everything on our robot this year is custom except for the motors and wheels and it was all designed, machined/fabricated and built by students. During the post-season students work on designing and prototyping parts and building the field for Battle at the Border. |
Re: Project Lead The Way!
[quote=dez250]As the name states this thread is about PLTW the Pre-Engineering course for highschool, located out of Clifton Park, N.Y.
The questions i have are: -whos heard of it? -who has it in their school? -what classes have you taken (if any)? -also what experiance have you gotten from it? -What would you say to others thinking about taking any of the classes? Heres the website for PLTW http://www.pltw.org ~Mike[/QUOT we have pltw at my high school(perry meridian high school) i have taken the first course but i am going to take courses next year too it has helped me alot and it does help in robotics because some of the team members has no experience with it so we who have taken the class can help also during robotic season at night when i have freetime i mess around with autodesk and it helps me work faster or understand better the next day when i have the class i recommend this course especiall for future enigineers my teacher says college students are using the same software now so if you have this class now if will definitally help you when you get to college |
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-Principals of Engineering -Was going to take Computer Integrated Manufacturing but they canceled it on us -3D Modeling (dont remember if that was PLTW) -Technical Drafting From taking these classes (especially IED), i learned the Autodesk Inventor program and was able to complete an entry for this year's competition. From 3D modeling, i learned the 3D aspect of cad and learned some more visual thing that inventor offers. POE is an awesome class from what i hear (im taking it next year). They have made Rube Goldberg devices, mousetrap cars, and lots of cool interesting things. Technical Drafting really introduced me into drafting and taught me AutoCAD. |
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I teach PLTW DDP and next year will be teaching Civil Eng. And Arch class...
I love teaching DDP, it is a great class and can give you valueable experience.. The point of the class is not to train you on a CAD program.. The point is to train you mind to problem solve, brainstorm, and use you imagination. (think outside the box) Like any class the course can depend on how good a job the teacher does at inspiring the students. Also Many of my students did not select the course and were just placed in the class, but now I have a number of students really interested in a tech ed. and want to persue further options. If they never had the chance then who knows what they would have ended up doing. I also have students that arnt your typical PLTW students. Students with 3rd and 4th grade reading levels who excel with CAD and have now found something that they can do which puts them on a level with their peers. |
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It is offered in my school. I've taken DDP, and currently POE. It is pretty fun, the only thing that i would like to see better is more hands on in POE. Although it may just be the fact that the Tech Dept. only has a budget of $5 per class :p .
I can see were DDP/IED can be a little boring for those who already know Autodesk, sketching and designing. Thats why it is designed to be a four year course and to start as a freshman. |
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Took DDP as freshman ( and was 1 of 3 to get college credit for it).
Taking POE and Digital Electronics now Signed up for CIM next year. I learned alot about drafting and elctronics in my DDP class and Digital class. Some of that really help our team this year because I was the major 3D drafting person on the team. I would recommend everyone who has the chance to take it because it saves alot of money from college. |
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Hopefully POE and Digital in senior year b/c of a full sch. next year I would recommend getting into the PLTW Courses, its a great experience for the most part, although Ive heard different from people in other areas.......but anyways, definitely check into it. And for those that dont have it, go to the tech dept and administration at your school and see what can be done to get involved.... |
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