While a lot of the stuff that eminem says is really controversial... he's TALENTED. How can anyone disagree with that?!

It's like modern art :D His lyrics and style are different

Yes, he is talented.

He's lyrical meanings is not something that should be praised upon though.

The miracle of the Constitution gives us the right to speak our mind. If killing people or abusing people is on his mind, he has every right to express himself.

That he's been given an opportunity to spread his message of intolerance speaks volumes of his talent. Do you think that someone far less talented with the same views would get the same recognition and airplay as Eminem does? They wouldn't, and they haven't. Eminem is unique -- not because of his message, but because he has the intelligence and talent to express it through his rhymes. If that's not worthy of recognition, I'm really not sure what is.

People preach hate all day, every day. Ultimately, we're the ones that choose to access that information, either by listening to Eminem's records, visiting the Westboro Baptist Church website, or attending a KKK meeting. Even when we're exposed without consent, the decision to act upon that information rests upon us.

Where I sit, it's much better to prove an idea wrong than it is to push it under the rug, unseen and unchallenged. Just as much as awarding Eminem such a prize would be controversial and, in your opinion, would perpetuate his message, it would also result in a vocal outcry against it. Look at what's happened here! Sometimes, it takes bringing injustice to light to make it go away. Sometimes, it means that we have to face the truth that people are listening to this music, they're making it a hit, and they're wanting more. That is the danger. Eminem is not.

Again, because Eminem's message. . . his information, if you will, may be unpopular isn't reason to discount his skill and it's certainly not reason to deny him recognition for that skill. That, fundamentally, seems to be our point of disagreement.

Maybe it's the Nobel Prize Committee's intention to only award their prize to people who forward their views, opinions and ideas. Maybe they're not at all interested in talent, technical execution of an artform, or skill. I don't know, honestly. But, the point is, if the award is based upon technical execution of a craft, Eminem should be just as eligible and considered equally as any other skilled poet. His message and his talents are two different animals. Don't confuse the two. Don't pretend the issue doesn't exist by trying to deny Eminem's existence -- or talent.

When did I ever say he can't talk/preach hate and killing? Never....I just said we shouldn't praise people for doing that.

You're right, it's our fault for listening to it. And if we don't like something, we don't have to listen/hear/see/smell/taste/feel that thing again.

What about Egar Allan Poe? He was an excellent writer, but yet, he didn't get an award, and he talked about depression and suicide. Same with Emily Dickenson (but she didn't talk about depression and suicide).

E.E. Cummings also is a great writer.

Linkin Park writes great lyrics in my opinion, does that mean that they should get the Nobel Prize also?

Why should he deserve recognition of his skill?

Well, because he writes lyrics that are vastly superior in content and presentation than many other similarly popular rap artists. His writing transcends typical hip-pop culture and standards by examining real issues that exist in the real world. My real world.

Okay, I don't know anything about life in the ghetto, but I can relate to that struggle far more than I can relate to songs about Corvousier and the bling-bling.

Consider this comparison of Eminem's lyrics to another popular hip-hop song.

source: here

vs.

source: here

While some may disagree, I think the quality of writing for Eminem's "Stan" is vastly superior. It was "Stan," not the pop-friendly "The Real Slim Shady," or "My Name Is," that made me take a moment to investigate what Eminem was doing. It shows the depth of his writing better than many other songs and is probably indicative of his best work to date.

Regardless of genre, Eminem presents well-written lyrics that exemplify the artists experiences better than most other popular acts.

That they didn't win an award isn't representative of their talent. I'd be interested to learn, however, if they were as appreciated during their lifetime as they are now as Eminem is. Both Poe and Dickinson have the benefit of time where Eminem has not. I would imagine that most people could recite a verse of Eminem before they could Poe or Dickinson. Time has also given Eminem the benefit of technology that Poe nor Dickinson had access to.

So, really, who's to say they're any better or worse? They're heralded, sure, and they're dead, but I don't think that means that they were any more or less talented than Eminem is. The basis of comparison is practically nonexistant.

Should we wait until Poe is reincarnated before we award another prize to another excellent writer?

I'm not sure I understand the thrust of your point here. At least, unless one operates under your implication that both Dickinson and Poe were better than Eminem. I don't agree.

If you're trying to suggest that they were each overlooked because of their personal and moral shortcomings, again, I'm not sure that I'd agree. Poe practically invented a genre. That, coupled with limited access to his work during his lifetime probably has a lot to do with why he wasn't recognized.

In the past, we've done a lot to make sure the message doesn't get out, but we've never succeeded. The message always gets out; from behind the parental advisory warning, through the airwaves despite the Clearchannel owned stations, and in our libraries despite the book burnings and bannings. Then, ultimately, the message is accepted in mainstream culture or it's not.

Here, we have an opportunity to skip the first step entirely as we do with every controversy. We can try to quelch those that do not share our views, or we can let them run their course.

What exactly are you afraid of in Eminem's music? Are you afraid someone may do harm unto you because of Eminen's lyrics? Misogyny? Homophobia?

Or are you afraid of being wrong? Of becoming a member of the minority?

For me, the latter experience is far more damaging and far more frightening than any misogynistic lyrics, cat-calls, threats, or dirty looks.

People aren't murdered because they are GLBT or because they're women or because they're autistic. They're murdered because they don't fit in.

I think you're afraid of not fitting in and you're trying to justify that fear by speaking against Eminem's message.

Providing the counterpoint to Eminem's point is an amazing, intelligent, wonderful service to society. Silencing his voice is not. Silencing his voice and denying his talent only makes people more interested. Wouldn't you want to know what's so dangerous about this guy if you were denied the chance to hear what he has to say? I sure would.

I know you're not suggesting that we silence him completely and that we simply not award him for his message. But, where I'm concerned, censorship exists or it doesn't. Once the floodgate has opened, there is no chance at all of ever closing it. Eminem's not worth the risk you're taking by denying him recognition because of his message.

Just sayin'.

Linkin Park has some good songs but they aren't worthy of any Nobel Prize :)

Eminem can considered a poet because rap is LYRCIAL POETRY (yeah, I just came off the poetry unit when school ended) to music.

As Maddie has pointed out, the lyrics are quite controversial but hey, that's your opinion and the one that you grew up with; other people are different and you cannot judge. Now, when you don't consider the vulgarity of the lyrics but instead how it is presented, it becomes clear that Eminem could be considered a great poet. One does not easily write as well as he does.

From the Nobel Foundation description of the Literature prizes:
It would be difficult to argue his talent for synchronizing words to beats and making it flow, but it would be even more difficult to argue that many of his works are in an "ideal direction" or that his works "conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."

Like I said before, he has talent, but what he stands for does not exactly fit the criteria of a Nobel Prize.

I know, I was just making the same point Krass is.

Yea, Stan is a song about a crazied (sp?) fan who kills his wife (like no one knew that would come up in the song), and himself. You're basically saying in my opinion that if I wrote a song about killing everyone, everything, and whatever else, that I should get an award for telling people "Hey! I'm new-age-Hitler! I'm gonna kill you all!!!!!"

Silencing eminem is not what I'm saying. I'm glad he's got a job, making himself something, and doing what he loves doing. But, what I am saying is that, talking about killing gays, his wife, girls, anyone is not something that should be shrunk into our brains....it's like marijuana. I can "relate" to the ghetto-part of the songs.

If he gets the award, then why not Papa Roach for the song, "Last Resort", or Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osborne, and all the "goths" in the world? NOTE: I'm not calling eminem goth.....

Egar Allan Poe got basically nothing, until "The Raven", which gave him popularity. And AFTER his death, he finally got recognized as the first science-fiction writer (stated in one of my books of him).

Emily got nothing, until her death. She tried numerous times to get her poetry out, but she didn't get popular til she bit the dust.

I'm not saying "Let's take Eminem off the air-waves, shelves, and everything else so that no one hears him [censored]!", I'm saying that if the message he wants to send out is that he wants to be like Hitler, doing genocide, then what was the point of us going to WWII?

IMHO, Mieh Kumph (Hitler's book he wrote in jail) is like the building of Eminem's songs also.........

P.S.: Better example, if Eminem gets it, why not Evanescence? They only talk about death.....

Funny you should mention that, as I quoted a very specific part of the song for just that reason. You'll note that in Eminem's reply, he states, "maybe you should treat her better."

The point is clear. Eminem's just writing about his thoughts, not about his actions. We all have darker tendencies that we know better than to act upon. Eminem isn't any different in that respect. We release our frustration in different methods than he may, but we can all sympathize with having frustration; even if it's not about the same topic.

Eminem makes it clear through "Stan" that he doesn't want people to act upon his lyrics. He only wants to be heard, not followed. See?

What I am saying is that if you write a song with such an unpopular message and you still manage to get it played on the radio, and on MTV, and in the CD player of millions of people, that says something about the quality of your work. When people are willing to listen, even if they don't agree, that's the true hallmark of a talented individual. If you could ever manage to be as successful while being as controversial as Eminem has, I'd be impressed, and I think it's something you'd deserve to be proud of. While the ideas there may not be acceptable or likeable, the skill it takes to present them is enviable.

....again, I'm not sure I understand the relevance? Many artists, genre and lifestyle aside, have written about death. The subject is irrelevant. The delivery of that subject is what delineates the true difference between an artist and a performer; between Eminem and Vanilla Ice.

The comparison to Adolph Hitler is almost laughable. When Eminem kills or hurts someone, or when someone else does in kind at Eminem's word, we'll revisit this idea. Until then, I can't draw a parallel between expressing frustration through something inoccuous like song and killing millions under the guise of racial superiority.

The difference is action versus expression. The difference is key.

Hitler was an effective and persuasive speaker, manipulating and taking advantage of the people of Germany's military as well as its civilian population. Among the first things Hitler did upon coming to power was to ensure that opposition would go unseen and unheard. Then, after a period where the population had been exposed to nothing but Hitler's ideas, he called upon them to commit grave crimes against humanity.

If anything, I'd draw a comparison between Hitler and the people who're now trying to get people like Eminem silenced -- in whole or in part -- by disqualifying his opinion, work and accomplishments and labeling him as damaging or unpopular. Using emotionally charged language (such as comparing Eminem to Hitler) only further makes inroads into silencing Eminem's voice. It's a worthwhile, effective technique at times, but I think you'll note that many decisions made through the power of emotion or often short-lived and regrettable.

Hitler won over Germany with emotion, but had a short-lived grip upon that nation. Logic won. Elvis triggered an emotional response in prudent, sexually repressed parents during the 1950's. Logic won.

Emotional decisions, declarations and calls to arm can be inspirational, but the energy they require cannot last forever. Logic stands the test of time.

If Eminem's ideas and lyrics are taken seriously, despite his own plea that they not be, and if they do seep into the culture, which stands a better chance at stopping them?

A triggered, emotional response? Maybe. For a short time.

A logical examination of his motivations and experiences coupled with an appreciation of every person's right to express themselves? Probably. And, if I had to guess, for a much longer period.

Yea, and look at what he did to Kim....even though she cheated on him (as far as i know), he was gonna kill her (based upon the lyrics of Superman i think the song is). You should also note that eminem says stuff about slitin' wrists, and cuttin' throats in his song(s).

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The point is clear. Eminem's just writing about his thoughts, not about his actions. We all have darker tendencies that we know better than to act upon. Eminem isn't any different in that respect. We release our frustration in different methods than he may, but we can all sympathize with having frustration; even if it's not about the same topic.

Yea, probably everyone does also. I do it (I don't talk about killing anyone though). Frustration is life, and life is frustration.

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Eminem makes it clear through "Stan" that he doesn't want people to act upon his lyrics. He only wants to be heard, not followed. See?

Yea, but he also makes it clear in "Kim" that he wants to kill his wife. And another one w/ Dr. Dre where Eminem says "Cut this b****'s head off!" What does that send out to kids? That we should all live in a world w/o outragous actions? No. Everyone is responsible for their actions, yes, but our actions reflect 90% of the time of what we hear, see, read, etc...

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What I am saying is that if you write a song with such an unpopular message and you still manage to get it played on the radio, and on MTV, and in the CD player of millions of people, that says something about the quality of your work. When people are willing to listen, even if they don't agree, that's the true hallmark of a talented individual. If you could ever manage to be as successful while being as controversial as Eminem has, I'd be impressed, and I think it's something you'd deserve to be proud of. While the ideas there may not be acceptable or likeable, the skill it takes to present them is enviable.

If people don't agree, but listen, then that's really weird. Usually if you hear lies, you don't listen to them after a while (or when they're first told). Anyone can really write what they think, feel, etc... I'm not against it, but what I'm against is that he's basically saying "It's ok to kill someone, or talk about it....look at me!"

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....again, I'm not sure I understand the relevance? Many artists, genre and lifestyle aside, have written about death. The subject is irrelevant. The delivery of that subject is what delineates the true difference between an artist and a performer; between Eminem and Vanilla Ice.

Metallica, Evanescence, Linkin Park, and others that I don't know off the top of my head has, yes....so have I. The delievery of Eminem's type is that he's saying that if you talk about/do kill someone, then you'll get famous and rich. Vanilla Ice was a fake really. I don't even know how you can compare them two, I feel sorry for Eminem for that comment........

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The comparison to Adolph Hitler is almost laughable. When Eminem kills or hurts someone, or when someone else does in kind at Eminem's word, we'll revisit this idea. Until then, I can't draw a parallel between expressing frustration through something inoccuous like song and killing millions under the guise of racial superiority.

How do you know people haven't? What about Colobine (sp?)? Even though no one said it, they could've over his lyrics.

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The difference is action versus expression. The difference is key.

Ok, but each lead's to the other.

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Hitler was an effective and persuasive speaker, manipulating and taking advantage of the people of Germany's military as well as its civilian population. Among the first things Hitler did upon coming to power was to ensure that opposition would go unseen and unheard. Then, after a period where the population had been exposed to nothing but Hitler's ideas, he called upon them to commit grave crimes against humanity.

Actually, Hitler didn't manipulate the Army and Government, he forced the government to sign a paper that he has total authority of the army, government, and everything else (but he soon got arrested for treason). He never told the German people to kill Jews, he forced them.

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If anything, I'd draw a comparison between Hitler and the people who're now trying to get people like Eminem silenced -- in whole or in part -- by disqualifying their opinion, work and accomplishments and labeling them as damaging or unpopular. Using emotionally charged language (such as comparing Eminem to Hitler) only further makes inroads into silencing Eminem's voice. It's a worthwhile, effective technique at times, but I think you'll note that many decisions made through the power of emotion or often short-lived and regrettable.

Ok, draw it in part.

BTW: This part really makes no sense. Everyone who's against him is expressing how his lyrics are telling our kids to do something stupid, like suicide and stuff.

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Hitler won over Germany with emotion, but had a short-lived grip upon that nation. Logic won. Elvis triggered an emotional response in prudent, sexually repressed parents during the 1950's. Logic won. Emotional decisions, declarations and calls to arm can be inspirational, but the energy they require cannot last forever. Logic stands the test of time. If Eminem's ideas and lyrics are taken seriously, despite his own plea that they not be, and if they do seep into the culture, which stands a better chance at stopping them? A triggered, emotional response? Maybe. For a short time. A logical examination of his motivations and experiences coupled with an appreciation of ever person's right to express themselves? Probably. And, if I had to guess, for a much longer period.

He had a grip for about 10 years....Eminem - about 5. Logic isn't key, it's strategy. Elvis was also like P. Diddy back then. Except Elvis created a new genre, and no one liked it. Eminem is doing rap, no creativity, and no one likes him.

He didn't make any plea that he wants no one take them seriously, he just doesn't give a care if you do or not.

You're doing an excellent job of dodging the point entirely.

Have you ever seen The David Letterman show? Y'know how he loves to quote Dr. Phil out of context? That's exactly what you're managing to do in your argument.

If you list to all of Eminem's work (i.e., don't write him off because of what he says immediately,) you'll note that, in songs such as "Stan," he cautions his listeners, "I say that **** just clownin' dawg, c'mon, how ****** up is you?"

"Stan" is particularly poignant because it directly addresses Eminem's relationship with his fans. He's addressing Stan and, by proxy, all of us listening to his record and he's saying to us that we need to understand that his songs, his lyrics, and his messages aren't meant to be taken seriously. He may threaten to kill people in songs like "Kim" and he may be irreverant in songs like "The Real Slim Shady," but the lesson is that he's being a performer by expressing himself. He is not trying to be a leader for any person's cause and he does not want to be credited as such.

You're trying to hold him responsible for things he's already made clear he is not responsible for.

It's odd that you should quote, "Guilty Conscience," because that entire song is about a point / counterpoint relationship. While, in the end, Eminem wins the battle of good and evil, the title's use of "Guilty" suggests that he isn't happy about that. In fact, it suggest quite the contrary -- that he had considered making a better choice but didn't and now regrets that decision. That's not a positive message?

Please, in the future, examine the context of the entire song from which you are quoting while remembering work such as "Stan" that cautions us to remember that Eminem is just performing and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Honestly, I can't think of many other performers that have presented such disturbing ideas and imagery and have had the bravery to step outside that persona to let on to us that it isn't real. It's odd then, that you'd fault Eminem for it.

So, you've never said in exasperation and exaggeration, "I'm going to kill you," I take it? I wouldn't believe you if you said you hadn't.

When Eminem raps about raping a girl or killing his ex-girlfriend or defames gays, I'm not sitting there shaking my head in agreement, but I do listen to and enjoy his work immeasurably. Particularly, I enjoy it because the message and the implication of that work is far deeper than you and most people ever seem willing to give him credit for. Instead, you're intent on reducing the scope and meaning of what he writes to a few, simple, phrases that are contextually misappropriated and content with the cursory judgement one might make based on those lyrics. Because you listen without context, you make judgements without context, and make accusations without base.


That was the point.

This is practically an entire debate unto itself, but I'll address it briefly. Eminem, nor any other artist, have, to my knowledge, contacted high schools directly and asked them to commit murder. If Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris had been found to have eaten copious amounts of Pez instead of listening to certain genres of music before the Colombine Massacre, would we then persecute the makers of that candy?

To persecute someone for sharing an idea is the first step to a world of Big Brother and the Thought Police. Read Orwell's "1984" if you haven't yet and note that it, too, was once banned by many schools and libraries for its unpopular content.

There is a step that occurs between expression and action. It is called decision.

While I am not intent on being dismissive, your knowledge of pre-World War II Germany is lacking. Hitler eliminated nearly every high-ranking military official and replaced them with people who're more in line with his system of political beliefs and ideologies.

The German people, too, were faced with that same intermediary process of decision. While, by the time of the genocide against non-aryans, there were strict, powerful institutions in place that made the consequences for dissention terrifying, the decision to rebel still existed. Hitler wasn't a stupid man and the way he manipulated Germany and the rest of Europe was practically genius, even if his purpose was sinister.

And again, we have another example of appreciating the execution without agreeing with the message or purpose.

Everyone I've encountered who has a distaste for Eminem hasn't examined his lyrics in their entirety -- you included. That's not to suggest that there aren't intelligent arguments against his work that take it all into account, but only that I haven't yet read one.

Elvis did not create a genre. He adapted a traditionally african-american style of music for caucasian audiences. Cleveland's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a fascinating series of films that chronical the earliest roots of rock and roll and do an excellent point at illustrating Elvis contribution without depriving his influences of their due recognition.

He wasn't popular? The RIAA would like to disagree, as they've calculated Elvis Presley to be number four among performers based upon album sales. He's beat only by Garth Brooks, Led Zeppelin, and the Beatles; and it's probably keen to note that neither The Beatles nor Led Zeppelin could've existed without Elvis Presley's contributions.

Your subjective judgement of Eminem's creativity is meaningless. People often malign rap artists for the "sampling" they do behind their rhymes, but I've learned about some incredible music through that sampling and believe that it has its merits. Rap artists also present fresh, unique metaphors and patterns of speech.

For example, in Cannibal Ox's "Real Earth," we find the lyrics,
with its clever double-entendre. Hardly uncreative, in my mind and further notable because it harkens back to rap's roots with a message that's all about the rhymes.

No one likes Eminem? Again, I think you'll find upon some more in depth research that you're wrong. His three albums have each soared to number one in sales in their debut week with his album, "The Eminem Show," doing so after a single day's release. He also holds the record for most albums sold in a week by a solo artist.

Where I'm concerned, you've failed to make a convincing argument that suggests Eminem's lyrics are directly responsible for any harm done to anyone such that he should be dismissed as a talent worthy of recognition.

Have I ever said "I'm gonna kill you", yes, in a sarcastic meaning. Eminem stresses it like it's his relief to kill someone.

About the Pez thing, I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. I never said they blamed music for it either, they only linked it to the computer game "DOOM". But probably.

Actually, Hitler overthrew the ruler of Germany, thus he had control over everything Germany owned, Army, Navy, and etc... after he got out of jail, he seized control again.

I never said no one liked Elvis, I was referring to his music. If you also notice, there are many more teenagers who listen to Eminem than adults.

If you're going for poetic awards, I believe Metallica should get the award, not Eminem. Metallica has very deep, lyrical poetry, a heart-felt meaning that almost (if not all) can relate to, and they are popular.

I still haven't read any facts at all for why eminem should get the award.

Eminem represents the downfall of modern music... You can't even call it music cause anyone can talk while there is a loud bass behind him...

I think you need to go back and reread a lot of what I've written if you're ever going to see the point. I'm not going to reiterate it. You want to assign differing intensity to what Eminem says over what you say, but there is not. Your desire to paint a bad picture is overcoming your ability to do the same.

Your knowledge of pre-World War II Germany under Hitler's rule is rudimentary at best. One cannot own an army, navy or nonexistant air force in any useful sense. I'll save the history lesson for another day.

So then what you meant to say was that people liked Elvis, but not his music? There's no distinction between the person and the music where history is concerned. The demographic of who likes who is utterly irrelevant to the discussion, unless you're trying to suggest that teenagers are somehow less valuable than adults?

There are entire industries that exist because of teenagers -- with entertainment and music being one of them.

I'm not debating contenders. I'm debating your desire to automatically disqualify Eminem from contention because you misinterpret his messages and then disagree with what you interpret.

I've said it, yes. But I didn't scream it like [removed by moderator. please describe your example, rather than bypassing the censor].

Ok, so Navy didn't exist when Hitler took over, big woop, there was after he took over, with the submerines and all. Also, my History is "correct", is that a crime?

Yes, like you said, he sang a new style that parents didn't like (or something like that). Person = sings music....I never brought history into it, I brought in facts. Teenagers are not less valuable than adults. I never said that, nor hid it in my words. All I'm saying is that more teenagers listen to him than adults.

Ok, so you're saying, that the movie industry is struggling because it has many adults in it? Also, I dunno how many shows have more adults than teenagers on them. Old and new. So that statement is wrong.....thank you.

Ok, so then why are you saying I've got no real proof on why he shouldn't get it? You're debating contenders. I'm not the only one automatically disqualifing him from it. No, I don't misinterpret and disagree w/ what I do interpret. Everyone interprets everything differently. And I don't disagree w/ it.