A question about Eminem
 

I was just wondering if it is true that Eminem might win a Nobel Prize in Poetry. Does anyone know?

Re: A question about Eminem
 

Nominees for the Nobel Prize never learn of their nomination - unless they win, of course.

So, given that, I'd argue that's about as likely as me winning the Peace Prize :)

I saw something about it on CNN.

I wouldn't be surprised if he did win... There's skill there.

I agree. He is a genius, to be able to come up with all that stuff off the top of his head. There is no way I could do it.

I would hate to see him get it... There are many other better people that deserve it...

he sucks, imho

I merely find him psychotic.

I think that if someone could come up with lines that rhyme like that, they should get an award for it, whether it is rap or written poetry, because you could take any great poet and have them battle with Eminem and they would never win. Eminem can just come up with that stuff so easily. He is a genius. Even if people don't like the things he talks about, they still have to agree that he is a great poet.

Poetry is not just about rhyme.

I agree w/ all four of these people.

I really don't like what Eminem stands for nor for the message that he sends out. However, he does have skill with words - I must give him that. If you were to look at the lyrics to Lose Yourself, there's no denying his skill in poetry.

Regardless, despite how much talent as he has in terms of rhyme and poetry, I would be very disappointed if he were to win the Nobel Prize - what he represents and the message that he sends out should exclude him from such a prestigious award.

Such as?

Like people who don't hate against many many people.....not trying to be a "meany" to say the least, but come'on, he talks about killing his mom, how he hates gays, etc...

So, in other words, someone's work is only worthy of attention and recognition when it is popular, uncontroversial, and saccharine?

So, again, such as? Maybe *NSync is a better choice. . . or, whoever it is that writes their lyrics? They sure are popular and happy and sweet.

The majority is often the worst judge of what is good, right, or fair.

Ok, assume for a moment that Eminem is a good poet. Even so, rewarding hate will only promote more of the same. Sure, he can speak his mind, but if it's offensive, why expect everyone to applaud him for it?

While you may find it offensive, you are not representative of everyone.

Because you may feel that misogyny and homophobia are bad things doesn't mean that they are.

Everything is relative. You're writing from a perspective that assumes Eminem is not talented because he chooses to express ideas and opinions that you may not agree with. You're discounting and confusing talent with expression, I think.

I don't know that Eminem is the best candidate for such an award as I'm not really aware of what's happening in poetry. However, I wouldn't argue that he's among the most skilled rappers I've ever seen where both lyrics and pacing are concerned -- message aside.

Ok, this is just strange for the least.....rap and poetry is not the same. Rap has music, beats, etc... poetry is like free-write. No music, beats, etc...

Poetry is defined by dictionary.com as;

• A piece of literature written in meter; verse.
• The art of apprehending and interpreting ideas by the faculty of imagination; the art of idealizing in thought and in expression.
• Imaginative language or composition, whether expressed rhythmically or in prose. Specifically: Metrical composition; verse; rhyme; poems collectively; as, heroic poetry; dramatic poetry; lyric or Pindaric poetry.

etc.

Again, I'm not clear on the distinction that makes the lyrics of a song different from the words of a poem? Does reading them to music disqualify them? It doesn't seem to me like it would. Really, that seems akin to saying that things don't rhyme aren't really poetry, either. That's not true, is it?

"Does reading them to music disqualify them?" I don't know, it depends on everyone's views. It's like potato and pototo. All I know is that if you write poetry, and then do it to music, then it's a song.

No one ever said poetry has to rhyme, and there are many poems that don't, and many that do.

The lyrics of a song can have a poetic flow.. no doubt about that. There is an obvious difference between a song and a poem, yes. However, the words of a song can be a poem... I dunno how else to say it.

Oh, for you dictionary people:

\Song\ (?; 115), n. [AS. song, sang, fr. singan to sing; akin to D. zang, G. sang, Icel. s["o]ngr, Goeth. sagws. See Sing.] 1. That which is sung or uttered with musical modulations of the voice, whether of a human being or of a bird, insect, etc. ``That most ethereal of all sounds, the song of crickets.'' --Hawthorne.
2. A lyrical poem adapted to vocal music; a ballad.
3. More generally, any poetical strain; a poem.
The bard that first adorned our native tongue Tuned to his British lyre this ancient song. --Dryden.
4. Poetical composition; poetry; verse.

Another definition that appears to be necessary:

\Con"verse\, n.
A proposition in which, after a conclusion from something supposed has been drawn, the order is inverted, making the conclusion the supposition or premises, what was first supposed becoming now the conclusion or inference.

Note that it is not necessarily true, and that the original statement often does not imply the converse.

I didn't say that Eminem's views in any way affected my impression of the skill level displayed by his work. To the contrary, his work disqualifies him (in my opinion) for a completely different reason. (Reminds me somewhat of the affirmative action thing...) Even if his skill with words did qualify him for the prize (I'm not saying it does, I'm not saying it doesn't) awarding such an icon of hate sends quite a message to the rest of the world that most likely is not a good thing.

srjjs is right...it's basically saying that hate is welcomed into the world, and you can get an award for it if you preach it long enough. I like his writing in a low-form way, but the hate he expresses against everyone shouldn't be rewarded.

It's like rewarding a dog for attacking everyone.

No, I don't think that's what it is saying at all. Not even close.

What it is saying, as far as I'm concerned, is that Eminem expresses his opinions and ideas in a poetic, impressive manner. That his ideas are unpopular is irrelevant. The delivery is what's being considered, and I think that Eminem's delivery is superb.

Then it becomes a question of agenda, right? What's the purpose of such a prize? Is it to reward someone for the technical execution of a craft -- such as rap or poetry -- or is to award the expression of a certain message that best fits with the ideals and concerns of those giving the award?

Personally, I'd prefer to reward someone for doing something well even if I don't agree with that they're doing than I would to give someone less skilled my attention solely because they don't challenge my ideas.

Personally, I think he is great at writing, but the message of hate, discrimanation (sp?), killing, and others is not what we should reward. That message would be that if you talk and/or kill someone you won't get introuble.

Whether or not he is considered a poet or not he does NOT deserve it...

This thread should've been made a poll...........

I still haven't seen any other recommendations, nor any reasons why he doesn't deserve it.

Nor have I seen any other recommendations, nor any reasons why he should deserve it.........

While a lot of the stuff that eminem says is really controversial... he's TALENTED. How can anyone disagree with that?!

It's like modern art :D His lyrics and style are different

Yes, he is talented.

He's lyrical meanings is not something that should be praised upon though.

The miracle of the Constitution gives us the right to speak our mind. If killing people or abusing people is on his mind, he has every right to express himself.

That he's been given an opportunity to spread his message of intolerance speaks volumes of his talent. Do you think that someone far less talented with the same views would get the same recognition and airplay as Eminem does? They wouldn't, and they haven't. Eminem is unique -- not because of his message, but because he has the intelligence and talent to express it through his rhymes. If that's not worthy of recognition, I'm really not sure what is.

People preach hate all day, every day. Ultimately, we're the ones that choose to access that information, either by listening to Eminem's records, visiting the Westboro Baptist Church website, or attending a KKK meeting. Even when we're exposed without consent, the decision to act upon that information rests upon us.

Where I sit, it's much better to prove an idea wrong than it is to push it under the rug, unseen and unchallenged. Just as much as awarding Eminem such a prize would be controversial and, in your opinion, would perpetuate his message, it would also result in a vocal outcry against it. Look at what's happened here! Sometimes, it takes bringing injustice to light to make it go away. Sometimes, it means that we have to face the truth that people are listening to this music, they're making it a hit, and they're wanting more. That is the danger. Eminem is not.

Again, because Eminem's message. . . his information, if you will, may be unpopular isn't reason to discount his skill and it's certainly not reason to deny him recognition for that skill. That, fundamentally, seems to be our point of disagreement.

Maybe it's the Nobel Prize Committee's intention to only award their prize to people who forward their views, opinions and ideas. Maybe they're not at all interested in talent, technical execution of an artform, or skill. I don't know, honestly. But, the point is, if the award is based upon technical execution of a craft, Eminem should be just as eligible and considered equally as any other skilled poet. His message and his talents are two different animals. Don't confuse the two. Don't pretend the issue doesn't exist by trying to deny Eminem's existence -- or talent.

When did I ever say he can't talk/preach hate and killing? Never....I just said we shouldn't praise people for doing that.

You're right, it's our fault for listening to it. And if we don't like something, we don't have to listen/hear/see/smell/taste/feel that thing again.

What about Egar Allan Poe? He was an excellent writer, but yet, he didn't get an award, and he talked about depression and suicide. Same with Emily Dickenson (but she didn't talk about depression and suicide).

E.E. Cummings also is a great writer.

Linkin Park writes great lyrics in my opinion, does that mean that they should get the Nobel Prize also?

Why should he deserve recognition of his skill?

Well, because he writes lyrics that are vastly superior in content and presentation than many other similarly popular rap artists. His writing transcends typical hip-pop culture and standards by examining real issues that exist in the real world. My real world.

Okay, I don't know anything about life in the ghetto, but I can relate to that struggle far more than I can relate to songs about Corvousier and the bling-bling.

Consider this comparison of Eminem's lyrics to another popular hip-hop song.

source: here

vs.

source: here

While some may disagree, I think the quality of writing for Eminem's "Stan" is vastly superior. It was "Stan," not the pop-friendly "The Real Slim Shady," or "My Name Is," that made me take a moment to investigate what Eminem was doing. It shows the depth of his writing better than many other songs and is probably indicative of his best work to date.

Regardless of genre, Eminem presents well-written lyrics that exemplify the artists experiences better than most other popular acts.

That they didn't win an award isn't representative of their talent. I'd be interested to learn, however, if they were as appreciated during their lifetime as they are now as Eminem is. Both Poe and Dickinson have the benefit of time where Eminem has not. I would imagine that most people could recite a verse of Eminem before they could Poe or Dickinson. Time has also given Eminem the benefit of technology that Poe nor Dickinson had access to.

So, really, who's to say they're any better or worse? They're heralded, sure, and they're dead, but I don't think that means that they were any more or less talented than Eminem is. The basis of comparison is practically nonexistant.

Should we wait until Poe is reincarnated before we award another prize to another excellent writer?

I'm not sure I understand the thrust of your point here. At least, unless one operates under your implication that both Dickinson and Poe were better than Eminem. I don't agree.

If you're trying to suggest that they were each overlooked because of their personal and moral shortcomings, again, I'm not sure that I'd agree. Poe practically invented a genre. That, coupled with limited access to his work during his lifetime probably has a lot to do with why he wasn't recognized.

In the past, we've done a lot to make sure the message doesn't get out, but we've never succeeded. The message always gets out; from behind the parental advisory warning, through the airwaves despite the Clearchannel owned stations, and in our libraries despite the book burnings and bannings. Then, ultimately, the message is accepted in mainstream culture or it's not.

Here, we have an opportunity to skip the first step entirely as we do with every controversy. We can try to quelch those that do not share our views, or we can let them run their course.

What exactly are you afraid of in Eminem's music? Are you afraid someone may do harm unto you because of Eminen's lyrics? Misogyny? Homophobia?

Or are you afraid of being wrong? Of becoming a member of the minority?

For me, the latter experience is far more damaging and far more frightening than any misogynistic lyrics, cat-calls, threats, or dirty looks.

People aren't murdered because they are GLBT or because they're women or because they're autistic. They're murdered because they don't fit in.

I think you're afraid of not fitting in and you're trying to justify that fear by speaking against Eminem's message.

Providing the counterpoint to Eminem's point is an amazing, intelligent, wonderful service to society. Silencing his voice is not. Silencing his voice and denying his talent only makes people more interested. Wouldn't you want to know what's so dangerous about this guy if you were denied the chance to hear what he has to say? I sure would.

I know you're not suggesting that we silence him completely and that we simply not award him for his message. But, where I'm concerned, censorship exists or it doesn't. Once the floodgate has opened, there is no chance at all of ever closing it. Eminem's not worth the risk you're taking by denying him recognition because of his message.

Just sayin'.

Linkin Park has some good songs but they aren't worthy of any Nobel Prize :)

Eminem can considered a poet because rap is LYRCIAL POETRY (yeah, I just came off the poetry unit when school ended) to music.

As Maddie has pointed out, the lyrics are quite controversial but hey, that's your opinion and the one that you grew up with; other people are different and you cannot judge. Now, when you don't consider the vulgarity of the lyrics but instead how it is presented, it becomes clear that Eminem could be considered a great poet. One does not easily write as well as he does.

From the Nobel Foundation description of the Literature prizes:
It would be difficult to argue his talent for synchronizing words to beats and making it flow, but it would be even more difficult to argue that many of his works are in an "ideal direction" or that his works "conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."

Like I said before, he has talent, but what he stands for does not exactly fit the criteria of a Nobel Prize.

I know, I was just making the same point Krass is.

Yea, Stan is a song about a crazied (sp?) fan who kills his wife (like no one knew that would come up in the song), and himself. You're basically saying in my opinion that if I wrote a song about killing everyone, everything, and whatever else, that I should get an award for telling people "Hey! I'm new-age-Hitler! I'm gonna kill you all!!!!!"

Silencing eminem is not what I'm saying. I'm glad he's got a job, making himself something, and doing what he loves doing. But, what I am saying is that, talking about killing gays, his wife, girls, anyone is not something that should be shrunk into our brains....it's like marijuana. I can "relate" to the ghetto-part of the songs.

If he gets the award, then why not Papa Roach for the song, "Last Resort", or Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osborne, and all the "goths" in the world? NOTE: I'm not calling eminem goth.....

Egar Allan Poe got basically nothing, until "The Raven", which gave him popularity. And AFTER his death, he finally got recognized as the first science-fiction writer (stated in one of my books of him).

Emily got nothing, until her death. She tried numerous times to get her poetry out, but she didn't get popular til she bit the dust.

I'm not saying "Let's take Eminem off the air-waves, shelves, and everything else so that no one hears him [censored]!", I'm saying that if the message he wants to send out is that he wants to be like Hitler, doing genocide, then what was the point of us going to WWII?

IMHO, Mieh Kumph (Hitler's book he wrote in jail) is like the building of Eminem's songs also.........

P.S.: Better example, if Eminem gets it, why not Evanescence? They only talk about death.....

Funny you should mention that, as I quoted a very specific part of the song for just that reason. You'll note that in Eminem's reply, he states, "maybe you should treat her better."

The point is clear. Eminem's just writing about his thoughts, not about his actions. We all have darker tendencies that we know better than to act upon. Eminem isn't any different in that respect. We release our frustration in different methods than he may, but we can all sympathize with having frustration; even if it's not about the same topic.

Eminem makes it clear through "Stan" that he doesn't want people to act upon his lyrics. He only wants to be heard, not followed. See?

What I am saying is that if you write a song with such an unpopular message and you still manage to get it played on the radio, and on MTV, and in the CD player of millions of people, that says something about the quality of your work. When people are willing to listen, even if they don't agree, that's the true hallmark of a talented individual. If you could ever manage to be as successful while being as controversial as Eminem has, I'd be impressed, and I think it's something you'd deserve to be proud of. While the ideas there may not be acceptable or likeable, the skill it takes to present them is enviable.

....again, I'm not sure I understand the relevance? Many artists, genre and lifestyle aside, have written about death. The subject is irrelevant. The delivery of that subject is what delineates the true difference between an artist and a performer; between Eminem and Vanilla Ice.

The comparison to Adolph Hitler is almost laughable. When Eminem kills or hurts someone, or when someone else does in kind at Eminem's word, we'll revisit this idea. Until then, I can't draw a parallel between expressing frustration through something inoccuous like song and killing millions under the guise of racial superiority.

The difference is action versus expression. The difference is key.

Hitler was an effective and persuasive speaker, manipulating and taking advantage of the people of Germany's military as well as its civilian population. Among the first things Hitler did upon coming to power was to ensure that opposition would go unseen and unheard. Then, after a period where the population had been exposed to nothing but Hitler's ideas, he called upon them to commit grave crimes against humanity.

If anything, I'd draw a comparison between Hitler and the people who're now trying to get people like Eminem silenced -- in whole or in part -- by disqualifying his opinion, work and accomplishments and labeling him as damaging or unpopular. Using emotionally charged language (such as comparing Eminem to Hitler) only further makes inroads into silencing Eminem's voice. It's a worthwhile, effective technique at times, but I think you'll note that many decisions made through the power of emotion or often short-lived and regrettable.

Hitler won over Germany with emotion, but had a short-lived grip upon that nation. Logic won. Elvis triggered an emotional response in prudent, sexually repressed parents during the 1950's. Logic won.

Emotional decisions, declarations and calls to arm can be inspirational, but the energy they require cannot last forever. Logic stands the test of time.

If Eminem's ideas and lyrics are taken seriously, despite his own plea that they not be, and if they do seep into the culture, which stands a better chance at stopping them?

A triggered, emotional response? Maybe. For a short time.

A logical examination of his motivations and experiences coupled with an appreciation of every person's right to express themselves? Probably. And, if I had to guess, for a much longer period.

Yea, and look at what he did to Kim....even though she cheated on him (as far as i know), he was gonna kill her (based upon the lyrics of Superman i think the song is). You should also note that eminem says stuff about slitin' wrists, and cuttin' throats in his song(s).

Quote:

The point is clear. Eminem's just writing about his thoughts, not about his actions. We all have darker tendencies that we know better than to act upon. Eminem isn't any different in that respect. We release our frustration in different methods than he may, but we can all sympathize with having frustration; even if it's not about the same topic.

Yea, probably everyone does also. I do it (I don't talk about killing anyone though). Frustration is life, and life is frustration.

Quote:

Eminem makes it clear through "Stan" that he doesn't want people to act upon his lyrics. He only wants to be heard, not followed. See?

Yea, but he also makes it clear in "Kim" that he wants to kill his wife. And another one w/ Dr. Dre where Eminem says "Cut this b****'s head off!" What does that send out to kids? That we should all live in a world w/o outragous actions? No. Everyone is responsible for their actions, yes, but our actions reflect 90% of the time of what we hear, see, read, etc...

Quote:

What I am saying is that if you write a song with such an unpopular message and you still manage to get it played on the radio, and on MTV, and in the CD player of millions of people, that says something about the quality of your work. When people are willing to listen, even if they don't agree, that's the true hallmark of a talented individual. If you could ever manage to be as successful while being as controversial as Eminem has, I'd be impressed, and I think it's something you'd deserve to be proud of. While the ideas there may not be acceptable or likeable, the skill it takes to present them is enviable.

If people don't agree, but listen, then that's really weird. Usually if you hear lies, you don't listen to them after a while (or when they're first told). Anyone can really write what they think, feel, etc... I'm not against it, but what I'm against is that he's basically saying "It's ok to kill someone, or talk about it....look at me!"

Quote:

....again, I'm not sure I understand the relevance? Many artists, genre and lifestyle aside, have written about death. The subject is irrelevant. The delivery of that subject is what delineates the true difference between an artist and a performer; between Eminem and Vanilla Ice.

Metallica, Evanescence, Linkin Park, and others that I don't know off the top of my head has, yes....so have I. The delievery of Eminem's type is that he's saying that if you talk about/do kill someone, then you'll get famous and rich. Vanilla Ice was a fake really. I don't even know how you can compare them two, I feel sorry for Eminem for that comment........

Quote:

The comparison to Adolph Hitler is almost laughable. When Eminem kills or hurts someone, or when someone else does in kind at Eminem's word, we'll revisit this idea. Until then, I can't draw a parallel between expressing frustration through something inoccuous like song and killing millions under the guise of racial superiority.

How do you know people haven't? What about Colobine (sp?)? Even though no one said it, they could've over his lyrics.

Quote:

The difference is action versus expression. The difference is key.

Ok, but each lead's to the other.

Quote:

Hitler was an effective and persuasive speaker, manipulating and taking advantage of the people of Germany's military as well as its civilian population. Among the first things Hitler did upon coming to power was to ensure that opposition would go unseen and unheard. Then, after a period where the population had been exposed to nothing but Hitler's ideas, he called upon them to commit grave crimes against humanity.

Actually, Hitler didn't manipulate the Army and Government, he forced the government to sign a paper that he has total authority of the army, government, and everything else (but he soon got arrested for treason). He never told the German people to kill Jews, he forced them.

Quote:

If anything, I'd draw a comparison between Hitler and the people who're now trying to get people like Eminem silenced -- in whole or in part -- by disqualifying their opinion, work and accomplishments and labeling them as damaging or unpopular. Using emotionally charged language (such as comparing Eminem to Hitler) only further makes inroads into silencing Eminem's voice. It's a worthwhile, effective technique at times, but I think you'll note that many decisions made through the power of emotion or often short-lived and regrettable.

Ok, draw it in part.

BTW: This part really makes no sense. Everyone who's against him is expressing how his lyrics are telling our kids to do something stupid, like suicide and stuff.

Quote:

Hitler won over Germany with emotion, but had a short-lived grip upon that nation. Logic won. Elvis triggered an emotional response in prudent, sexually repressed parents during the 1950's. Logic won. Emotional decisions, declarations and calls to arm can be inspirational, but the energy they require cannot last forever. Logic stands the test of time. If Eminem's ideas and lyrics are taken seriously, despite his own plea that they not be, and if they do seep into the culture, which stands a better chance at stopping them? A triggered, emotional response? Maybe. For a short time. A logical examination of his motivations and experiences coupled with an appreciation of ever person's right to express themselves? Probably. And, if I had to guess, for a much longer period.

He had a grip for about 10 years....Eminem - about 5. Logic isn't key, it's strategy. Elvis was also like P. Diddy back then. Except Elvis created a new genre, and no one liked it. Eminem is doing rap, no creativity, and no one likes him.

He didn't make any plea that he wants no one take them seriously, he just doesn't give a care if you do or not.

You're doing an excellent job of dodging the point entirely.

Have you ever seen The David Letterman show? Y'know how he loves to quote Dr. Phil out of context? That's exactly what you're managing to do in your argument.

If you list to all of Eminem's work (i.e., don't write him off because of what he says immediately,) you'll note that, in songs such as "Stan," he cautions his listeners, "I say that **** just clownin' dawg, c'mon, how ****** up is you?"

"Stan" is particularly poignant because it directly addresses Eminem's relationship with his fans. He's addressing Stan and, by proxy, all of us listening to his record and he's saying to us that we need to understand that his songs, his lyrics, and his messages aren't meant to be taken seriously. He may threaten to kill people in songs like "Kim" and he may be irreverant in songs like "The Real Slim Shady," but the lesson is that he's being a performer by expressing himself. He is not trying to be a leader for any person's cause and he does not want to be credited as such.

You're trying to hold him responsible for things he's already made clear he is not responsible for.

It's odd that you should quote, "Guilty Conscience," because that entire song is about a point / counterpoint relationship. While, in the end, Eminem wins the battle of good and evil, the title's use of "Guilty" suggests that he isn't happy about that. In fact, it suggest quite the contrary -- that he had considered making a better choice but didn't and now regrets that decision. That's not a positive message?

Please, in the future, examine the context of the entire song from which you are quoting while remembering work such as "Stan" that cautions us to remember that Eminem is just performing and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Honestly, I can't think of many other performers that have presented such disturbing ideas and imagery and have had the bravery to step outside that persona to let on to us that it isn't real. It's odd then, that you'd fault Eminem for it.

So, you've never said in exasperation and exaggeration, "I'm going to kill you," I take it? I wouldn't believe you if you said you hadn't.

When Eminem raps about raping a girl or killing his ex-girlfriend or defames gays, I'm not sitting there shaking my head in agreement, but I do listen to and enjoy his work immeasurably. Particularly, I enjoy it because the message and the implication of that work is far deeper than you and most people ever seem willing to give him credit for. Instead, you're intent on reducing the scope and meaning of what he writes to a few, simple, phrases that are contextually misappropriated and content with the cursory judgement one might make based on those lyrics. Because you listen without context, you make judgements without context, and make accusations without base.


That was the point.

This is practically an entire debate unto itself, but I'll address it briefly. Eminem, nor any other artist, have, to my knowledge, contacted high schools directly and asked them to commit murder. If Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris had been found to have eaten copious amounts of Pez instead of listening to certain genres of music before the Colombine Massacre, would we then persecute the makers of that candy?

To persecute someone for sharing an idea is the first step to a world of Big Brother and the Thought Police. Read Orwell's "1984" if you haven't yet and note that it, too, was once banned by many schools and libraries for its unpopular content.

There is a step that occurs between expression and action. It is called decision.

While I am not intent on being dismissive, your knowledge of pre-World War II Germany is lacking. Hitler eliminated nearly every high-ranking military official and replaced them with people who're more in line with his system of political beliefs and ideologies.

The German people, too, were faced with that same intermediary process of decision. While, by the time of the genocide against non-aryans, there were strict, powerful institutions in place that made the consequences for dissention terrifying, the decision to rebel still existed. Hitler wasn't a stupid man and the way he manipulated Germany and the rest of Europe was practically genius, even if his purpose was sinister.

And again, we have another example of appreciating the execution without agreeing with the message or purpose.

Everyone I've encountered who has a distaste for Eminem hasn't examined his lyrics in their entirety -- you included. That's not to suggest that there aren't intelligent arguments against his work that take it all into account, but only that I haven't yet read one.

Elvis did not create a genre. He adapted a traditionally african-american style of music for caucasian audiences. Cleveland's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a fascinating series of films that chronical the earliest roots of rock and roll and do an excellent point at illustrating Elvis contribution without depriving his influences of their due recognition.

He wasn't popular? The RIAA would like to disagree, as they've calculated Elvis Presley to be number four among performers based upon album sales. He's beat only by Garth Brooks, Led Zeppelin, and the Beatles; and it's probably keen to note that neither The Beatles nor Led Zeppelin could've existed without Elvis Presley's contributions.

Your subjective judgement of Eminem's creativity is meaningless. People often malign rap artists for the "sampling" they do behind their rhymes, but I've learned about some incredible music through that sampling and believe that it has its merits. Rap artists also present fresh, unique metaphors and patterns of speech.

For example, in Cannibal Ox's "Real Earth," we find the lyrics,
with its clever double-entendre. Hardly uncreative, in my mind and further notable because it harkens back to rap's roots with a message that's all about the rhymes.

No one likes Eminem? Again, I think you'll find upon some more in depth research that you're wrong. His three albums have each soared to number one in sales in their debut week with his album, "The Eminem Show," doing so after a single day's release. He also holds the record for most albums sold in a week by a solo artist.

Where I'm concerned, you've failed to make a convincing argument that suggests Eminem's lyrics are directly responsible for any harm done to anyone such that he should be dismissed as a talent worthy of recognition.

Have I ever said "I'm gonna kill you", yes, in a sarcastic meaning. Eminem stresses it like it's his relief to kill someone.

About the Pez thing, I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. I never said they blamed music for it either, they only linked it to the computer game "DOOM". But probably.

Actually, Hitler overthrew the ruler of Germany, thus he had control over everything Germany owned, Army, Navy, and etc... after he got out of jail, he seized control again.

I never said no one liked Elvis, I was referring to his music. If you also notice, there are many more teenagers who listen to Eminem than adults.

If you're going for poetic awards, I believe Metallica should get the award, not Eminem. Metallica has very deep, lyrical poetry, a heart-felt meaning that almost (if not all) can relate to, and they are popular.

I still haven't read any facts at all for why eminem should get the award.

Eminem represents the downfall of modern music... You can't even call it music cause anyone can talk while there is a loud bass behind him...

I think you need to go back and reread a lot of what I've written if you're ever going to see the point. I'm not going to reiterate it. You want to assign differing intensity to what Eminem says over what you say, but there is not. Your desire to paint a bad picture is overcoming your ability to do the same.

Your knowledge of pre-World War II Germany under Hitler's rule is rudimentary at best. One cannot own an army, navy or nonexistant air force in any useful sense. I'll save the history lesson for another day.

So then what you meant to say was that people liked Elvis, but not his music? There's no distinction between the person and the music where history is concerned. The demographic of who likes who is utterly irrelevant to the discussion, unless you're trying to suggest that teenagers are somehow less valuable than adults?

There are entire industries that exist because of teenagers -- with entertainment and music being one of them.

I'm not debating contenders. I'm debating your desire to automatically disqualify Eminem from contention because you misinterpret his messages and then disagree with what you interpret.

I've said it, yes. But I didn't scream it like [removed by moderator. please describe your example, rather than bypassing the censor].

Ok, so Navy didn't exist when Hitler took over, big woop, there was after he took over, with the submerines and all. Also, my History is "correct", is that a crime?

Yes, like you said, he sang a new style that parents didn't like (or something like that). Person = sings music....I never brought history into it, I brought in facts. Teenagers are not less valuable than adults. I never said that, nor hid it in my words. All I'm saying is that more teenagers listen to him than adults.

Ok, so you're saying, that the movie industry is struggling because it has many adults in it? Also, I dunno how many shows have more adults than teenagers on them. Old and new. So that statement is wrong.....thank you.

Ok, so then why are you saying I've got no real proof on why he shouldn't get it? You're debating contenders. I'm not the only one automatically disqualifing him from it. No, I don't misinterpret and disagree w/ what I do interpret. Everyone interprets everything differently. And I don't disagree w/ it.

** points to both of your signatures. AIM please.

Sorry brandon

*knew he should've done it sooner*

I disagree with all of the assertions in your post.

In my eyes, Eminem represents, and is at the forefront of, an invigoration of modern popular music. He dares to say things that many disagree with. He stays true to himself and his methods of self-expression. He doesn't give up, and he doesn't back down (that I know of). He's one of the few remaining pockets of disruption and dissonance in this endless sea of conformist drivel that we're hearing on Top40 radio and MTV.

Second, you don't have any basis to say that what Eminem produces is not music. He might not be able to play the guitar or the bass or drums or sitar or whatever else you may think of, but hey, neither could The Ramones, and look what they accomplished. :p What he does is no less worthy of recognition.

And last, I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that "anyone can talk while there is a loud bass behind him." The complexity of the lyrics that Eminem has been known to produce off the top of his head astounds most people, including myself. His ability to think on his feet (freestyle) can probably only be matched by very few. The bass may provide a rhythm, but it doesn't automatically infer an ability to rap.

I've done the "thoughts-or-words-off-the-top-of-my-head" many, many, many times while I just sit in the car, computer, try to write, and anything else I might be doing. He grant him on the rhyming, I don't on the message. It's just my opinion (which turned into a 2-1/2 page argument).

So, what you're suggesting, then, is that the delivery can be more important than the message? That seems quite like what I've been suggesting the entire time, oddly.

This has become totally unrelated to this thread, but your knowledge of Hitler's rise to power is rudimentary and obviously so. It's a long lecture to give, so I'm not doing it here. You are oversimplifying many things or are simply incorrect. Hitler's rule in Germany and the road he took to get there has filled books.



Beyond that what you've written makes no sense, allow me to elaborate further.

Teenagers in the United States have the highest percentage of expendable income when compared to other demographic groups. That is, teenagers can often afford to spend 70 or 80% of what they earn on leisure activities where adults have to worry about things like insurance, bills, taxes, and the mortgage.

It is that expendable income that is the bread and butter of the entertainment industry. CD sales and movie receipts are driven by the teenage demographic. It's for that reason that artists such as Eminem and *NSync sell millions and millions of records, but adult contemporary favorites such as, say, Rod Stewart, are hardly a blip on the radar. Ignoring teens is the first step toward making sure a business or industry fails.

I've written here just once more to clea up those final misconceptions. I'm done with this debate because it's clear its hit a dead end. I'll let the discussion speak for itself when others read it. I think I've gone far enough to sufficiently prove my points -- about Eminem, about censorship, and about the unrelated topics of WWII and teenaged spending habits. If anyone wants to take this up with me in private, feel free, but please don't bother unless you're going to take the time to verify your claims first. I research what I write and I expect the same courtesy in return.

Thanks.

Actually he's is not freestyling because he thinks this CRAP up before he produces it... I don't know why you are draggin the Ramones into this because they are not rap and don't just dance around like an idiot saying they are going to kill themselves and how tough life is even though they are living in million dollar homes and have 20 different cars... So don't even try to bring them in... It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't even write that crap like all some of the other pop bands(well you can't call them bands if its just one person singing other peoples stuff)... The fact is is that he is not a poet he just talks about howtough life is even though he has a great life and he talks about how he beats his wife (ex. (i forget the name of the song but it goes like this) "I'm gonna kill you b****")... To me my friend that is not music or poetry that is unexceptable CRAP... If you want real poetry/music listen to a little song called No Surprises by Radiohead... Now that is a work of art...

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's completely worthless crap. I don't like Eminem's music... not one bit. I still think he's got talent, though. People obviously like Eminem's work, or else most of us wouldn't have heard of him. The record sales back that up, without a doubt.

As for the nobel prize thing [you know, the original topic of this thread], I agree with what SuperDanman said above. The Nobel Peace Prize is given to the person that has "..conferred the greatest benefit on mankind". I don't know what benefit Eminem has given other than entertainment. I'm sure something else has happened in the past year somewhere in the world that had a greater benefit to mankind than just entertainment.

I agree that he doesn't deserve it... Also I respect your opinion but to me he does have no talent but thats my opinion and I'll leave it at that...

It is funny that I go like two days without going onto Chiefdelphi and this thread goes from like five posts to four full pages. I am finally popular...just joking.

Looks like I came a little late, but anyways:

At the uppermost levels, there's little difference between candidates. The average person is definitely able to recognize quality work, but is far less likely to be able to weigh one outstanding choice against another. That's why special committees to grant such awards exist.
That's also why these awards carry so much significance with them. The skill is there whether it's rewarded or not, but the respect that comes with such a presitigious award is extremely important. The recipient, for a large portion of the world, becomes the pinnacle of what that field represents and the role model for many enthusiasts with dreams of someday winning the prize as well.
In addition, the Nobel Prize is something that is typically only given attention to by adults. You'd be hard-pressed to find a teenager that knows who the last few nobel prize winners in any one category were.
(Note that it is not so much the work itself that matters, but what people think of the work.)
These people typically regard Eminem as conveying a message of hate and instability (which, to be fair, he does). By bestowing the highest award in the field on such a person, a significant message is sent. A person with such a negative reputation as Eminem is not a good choice for this award.

Actually I agree that there are quite a few similarities between Eminem and Elvis. The only thing different between them is the amount of things they both had to do to create controversy. All Elvis had to do was shake his hips and he would scare a lot of parents with that. In fact television shows would show him from the waist up because of the controversy.

To all of you people against eminem, think about this -
part of music is conveying a message to other people, and eminem does a great job of this. you all know the exact message that he is giving out, but maybe its deeper. maybe he would have killed somebody by now if he hadnt let all his anger out. Admitting is always the first step to recovery, right?

I personally like his music to a point. I wont listen to it repeatedly, but its a good reality check every once in a while.

Maybe im crazy

Maybe he would've...but ever thought about this -
If he didn't do his writing, their maybe less hate in the world?

I never said their would be, I said their might be.

Yes, Eminem has an amazing talent to spit out rhymes faster and with more meaning and complexity than anyone else. And quite frankly, when I listen to it (the non-offensive stuff), I get a bit of an energy boost. BUT this whole controversy would probably not be going on if he hadn't started off with such nasty lyrics...who wants to listen to him talk about killing, maiming, tapings anf so forth, his mother? Now, I don't particularly like my mother, but I have no reason for that other stuff.

I can understand him being nominated and winning a nice little prize for his talent (he has ALOT of it, don't think I'm saying he doesn't, I just think he chooses to use it in the wrong way most of the time), but the Nobel prize? Come on. That's too much.

/me looks at watch and is angry that I spent half my lunch break reading this dribble....

L

Re: A question about Eminem
 

Such as Dean Kamen

Re: A question about Eminem
 

I would like to make an honorable mention to Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park; especially when he off-shooted to form Fort Minor. There is a song from "The Rising Tied" called "Kenji", and it's a truly masterpiece that will never be a single. Quite sad really...however, the song is a look back at his grandparents lives, and very very good.

If anybody deserves a nobel prize for wording, I believe this far outweighs Eminem.

Re: A question about Eminem
 

Seconded.

Re: A question about Eminem
 

*Insert Imus Comment Here...*

Seriously though, in my opinion, Mathers (Eminem) has every right to write and sing about whatever he want. People can choose to listen to this. Is it poetry? I don't know. I'm not an english major. I do believe that he should have a shot at the prize, as far as being nominated. Then a council of people will decide as to weather or not he deserves it. I'm not sure that the content of the poetry (if it is even classified as that) as far as political correctness neutrality would detract from his work and the quality of poetry. But again, thats not for me to decide. It just seems that as I look back at great works of literature, I can imagine how controversial and *bad* some of these works must have seemed at the time (example: The Bible). I'm in no way saying that Mathers' work compares to the bible on any level, but I'm simply saying that the level of controversy of great works of literature may have been high at the time they were written. But again, not something for me, or not really anyone who isn't on the council of the Nobel Prize Choosing to decide (again, an opinion.)

This thread is probably dead (2003?), but I just saw it in the portal tonight and read the whole thing, and decided to share my thoughts. Oh well.

98 cents short of a dollar,
Jacob

Re: A question about Eminem
 

Wow... I wish I would have been involved in this conversation back in '03. I would have been very outspoken against Eminem. He's got poetic talent, but it's used for shameful work. I have everything against nearly all rap artists, especially gangster rap. I do acknowledge that most have lyrical talent, just bad words.

Peace.