FIRST Nationals on "Regular" TV
 

I dunno about you but only a hand-full of people I know actually get NASA TV.

I think we should work hard this year along with FIRST to get The Championship Event broadcast on "regular" TV. A station that would come in someone's basic cable package.

Does anyone have any ideas?

It would be kinda weird but kinda cool if we could get MTV to do something. Middle and High Schoolers are their largest (target) audience.

We could get like some clean rapper to do a rap about FIRST... maybe someone like Will Smith. JK, the guy is okay in movies (MIB) but I really dont like his music. :D

Well, the problem with "regular" tv... is they make lots of money from their normal shows. I mean, it's hard enough just to get a real blurb on a news station, last year CNN did all of about what, a 2 minute interview basically saying "so you built a robot, and won with it... good job" As for the MTV thing... eh... a typical music video changes scenes every 1 second... the viewers of that station wouldn't be able to tolerate watching a robotics event, and especially not for multiple days, at most they might get like a highlights, and that would only be like robots being broken and stuff, cause most people have come to expect battlebots, and wouldn't understand. I think we should aim for news stations, and just getting blurbs on some things, and maybe even some type of mention from things like MTV, but that would be hard, like I said they'd probably only do a short highlights thing, and wouldn't go for the game, but the damage done to robots and such.

i got Us at our car wash on our local news WPBF25 They interviered me for 5 minutes, anierviewrd Chet for 5 minutes, took a lot of footage AND we were the Last blurb on Less than 30 seconds

Well, its better than nothing

the problem with regular tv is advertising you need an audience and a sponsor(Comertals) that want to sell somthing to that audience, and anyone else who dosent(the infnante logos on robots and team shirts) will have to be blured out

Our best Bet is PBS

Hmmm C-SPAN has that book-tv thing. Maybe they would cover us. Its a station that most people get, yet is willing to let people give 2 hour speeches to book publishers.

Rap is music now?
 

While the demographic is right for MTV, and it certainly would be a great thing for them, I doubt they'd be able to deliver a viewer satisfying version of FIRST. And if they did, I'd doubt it'd look like FIRST.

What FIRST needs is a TLC or Discovery channel special, dedicated to follow teams throughout the season. But not a simple documentary, something more personal than some of us are willing to allow ourselves to be recorded.

Then again there is no such thing as bad press.

I know I'm back and forth in my post but it is late and it's a touchy subject. I suppose it's a good idea, but I'd aim for the tech channels first. (And yes I know that tech TV had specials about FIRST before which I unfortunately missed. If anyone has a copy of it let me know, I missed it!)

But the problem is how to convince these broadcasting networks to take time and money, and thus risk, into looking into our endeavors? Certainly once they experience FIRST for what it is there will be no need of convincing anymore, but it takes more than just a well written letter to convince them to take this risk. A large open community letter with mass signatures may be one way to approach it, but doubtful.

The best way to tackle this problem is to create a demo tape. Take as much footage from previous years, and take out the most creative and spirited examples. Step away from your position as a team and pick out the most creative or outrageous (ie creative: RoboKong or Cradle Robber of 25, us, in 2001, or Beatty's (71's) 2002 bot. ie of outrageous: Rocky's (Sorry, I forget the team #!) awesome soup can design in 2002, or 118's Masssive hand machine in 2001 [only saw videos of this, was a machine to remember!)

After taking the robot design footage, pick out exciting moments in matches. But beware- while FIRST is not about flipping opponents or bashing through another robot, it may be ebst to include a few of these clips simply to show that these are REAL machines, dangerous as well as engineering marvels. however, overdo it on the flips, crashes, and bashings, and it sahll not be the FIRST we know. There is no need to send that in.

Follow this by footage of the throngs of oddly dressed crazy people screaming not just for their own teams, but for their opponents as well. Who wouldn't have their curiosity peaked by seeing a team of ugly yellow Hawiian shirts or a team of bright green shirted people clapping sticks as loud as possible to an unforgettable chant?

Of course this footage simply put to music means absolutely nothing to anyone who doesn't know what FIRST is already. Which is why it needs to be approached by storytellers. Match strong voiced narrators telling the background of each story, both the game, the happenings of the game, and the creativeness of say, the robot design displayed. It is only with this accompanying narration will the video work.

(For you Phillip Roth fans: )

Or at least that's one man's opinion. First name Smitty, last name Word.


Note: I began replying when the thread first started. Now it seems my long post kept me from being first so I didn't get to read other posts before finishing this.

Re: Rap is music now?
 

You are right, we do need to be put on some channel like discovery. It would actually seem to fit into their line-up really well.

They have monster garage, American Choppers... the list goes on with those kind of shows.

I think we should approach a station like if you where to approach a sponsor. If a company like BAE is willing to give out millions to FIRST why cant a TV station (who will also make $$$ back on it)

well thinking about mtv. They have that show real life. We can get them to follow like a couple of teams from jan 4 to the championship. They go with the teams to regionals and then to the big show. they can call it REal life i am a robotics fanatic

Certainly it's a good idea but it's been done in a documentary I've seen on TV before- 3 2001 teams were followed throughout the season. But it does not begin to do justice to the sport itself.

Perhaps a series would be better? But once again, a series means money, time, and thus risk for television companies. Though a FIRST series certainly would be the only show I'll tune in to watch every week, save West Wing.

ya true look at fox they do alot of stupid reality shows why dont they acutally take a serious that will do better then "paradise hotedl"

Don't get me started on FOX.


Any other ideas on how to adequately represent FIRST in the video medium?

hey sorry i am just trying to give ideas here

We have video around the site of the Championship being shown on ESPN.

One of the sports channels I get show parts of nationals... Like the last day... i believe it's ESPN...

This past season a video crew came in and video taped my team. Supposedly they were gathering footage to put on a 1 hour special about FIRST for the Discovery Channel. Team 67, my team, was not chosen to be followed for the whole season, but I heard that Team 254, the Cheezy Poofs, was chosen, and was taped for most of the season. I don't know the other teams that were taped, but there will be three total.

I think i heard someone say the show would air sometime in the fall on Discovery. It sounds like it will be a great show with great publicity for FIRST!

Well, just so we have this in one place and the status of them:
Suggested Mediums:
NASA TV (Too small viewer base to be effective)
FOX (Mostly Disagreed, except for short blurbs)
FOX family and other divisions of FOX (see above)
MTV (Divided No)
MTV2 (Only plays Music and Commercials)
CNN (Mostly Disagreed, except for short blurbs)
NBC (Mostly Disagreed, except for short blurbs)
MSNBC and other divisions of NBC (See above)
CBS (Mostly Disagreed, except for short blurbs)
ABC (Mostly Disagreed, except for short blurbs)
ABC family and other divisions of ABC (See above)
Discovery (Not Discussed in Detail)
Discovery Health (No, wrong subject)
Discovery Wings (No, wrong subject)
Discovery Science and other Tech. based (Not discussed)
ESPN/ESPN2 (Not Discussed in Detail)
C-SPAN/C-SPAN2 (Not discussed in Detail)
TLC (Added Aug 11, 2003; Not Discussed in Detail)

Why:
NASA TV, as stated not enough people watch it (I don't even get it)
FOX, ABC, CBS, NBC, these can all be lumped as they have similar viewer bases and therefore similar demands for programming. In my opinion they will most likely not partake of a broadcast, however they ,might run a news segment every night for the week in one of those 'running updates' that they have. This will raise awareness of FIRST quite a bit, but we are discussing how to have the whole thing or a sizable portion of it broadcast, so theses are out of the question
CNN, similar viewer base as above, but because they do a lot of reporting in the technology genre they might run a post-championship 1-hour segment on the championship.
MTV, they do music. I feel that unless we play on the 'wow' and 'cool' factors and less on the 'these kids are doing something educational' side of FIRST we can rule them out.

This leaves Discovery and its divisions, TLC, ESPN and it's divisions and C-SPAN with it's divisions. I feel that they are the most likely prospects, although I think we should try for Discovery, TLC or ESPN first, then all of their sub-catagories and C-SPAN, then C-SPAN2 in that order because my personal opinion is that Discovery and ESPN (predominately Discovery) have a viewer base that is closer to who would watch than C-SPAN, and that we should try for the main stations first because in many places (me included) don't get the sub-stations (Discovery Wings, etc...) without paying an obscene amount (not me) for the 'deluxe' cable and a smaller viewer base. With that said...

Remember:

FIRST holds broadcast rights and can choose to give or not give these to any station, and that station can choose to turn FIRST down even if it is offered, so please, please, please don't try to organize this on your own, we don't want any lawsuits. Furthermore all of FIRST's sponsors probably have a say in this. What I'm saying is you probably need to talk to Mr. Dean Kamen.

...So with that said continue discussing.

Note to the above post: I've added to the list the divisions of discussed stations just so those bases are covered. Keep in mind that my opinion may have influenced some of the status ( ) blurbs, and nothing here is meant to inflame anyones tempers. If you feel I've made a mistake in the status of a station, or have lumped topics incorrectly, or anything else, just PM me or post it here with what you want fixed and I'll change it as soon as I log on. Or just have Brandon ban me if you get really ticked. Just kidding.:D

Just my 2.1 cents

Or it could be "Real life: I'm a geek"....And show everyone how fun being a geek could be...

Actually Battlebots never had a problem with that. I really don't see why it should be a problem with FIRST.
The reason why they have reality shows is that people watch them.
Actually from what I remeber TLC all ready has had a robotics show on and it got cancelled. It also was the least violent version too. It was push the obstacle, get through the obstacle, and then push the robot out the ring.

Yes, I agree. Discovery or TLC would be the best choices. They alreday have stuff like this, and FIRST is somewhat of an educational thing (not it's purpose, but a side effect in some ways). It's the kind of thing they would like.

OK Normally i will not get mad at something someone may say that is not 100% true and incorrect, cause you know everyone make mistakes, but this is a mistake that doesn't stand well with me. F.I.R.S.T., The organization so many of us love and some of us spend year round working to have something that everyone likes to see and talk about here, IS most definitely meant to be educational. The main goal of F.I.R.S.T. is to Change the future of our world, today. And it has been said and shown that the only way to change generations here now and those to come is by education. I do not think that F.I.R.S.T. would be here still, in our schools, homes and communities if it wasn't educational. I know that it says even on the website the following:
"Our mission: FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs to build self-confidence, knowledge and life skills while motivating young people to pursue opportunities in science, technology and engineering."

I think that is enough for me to know that F.I.R.S.T. is meant to be educational...

~Michael Dessingue

[*Note*]: I am sorry if this came off like a flame toward anyone but this is something that i hold true in my team and with all the people i work with through FIRST, that this is not just to have fun, but also to learn things from.[/*Note*]

Actually, the mission statement to which you are referring implies that the acquiring of knowledge is a healthy "side effect" (perhaps not the best choice of words) of their goal to "motivat[e] young people to pursue opportunities in science, technology and engineering." I think you may have just lashed out at something not a big deal.

Anyway, I agree with the fact that a TLC or Discovery special would be well received by many of the people who watch those channels. It should be noted, however, that if we are seeking to do more than broadcast FIRST on a channel more commonly available (than NASA TV), then we should not limit ourselves to Discovery or TLC. But for now, we should see the serious problems the nature of the media creates for our "sport of minds:" what ever boosts a channel's ratings can stay, otherwise, "buh bye." Airtime on Discovery or TLC is a realistic max at the moment, not (as I said earlier) a limit. I'm all for it.

Yup, TLC and/or Discovery looks like our best bet

Adam Y. I remember that show on TLC as well, it's called Robotica.

i have to agree with joel there airtimes are maxed out and something prob hard to come by. They have alot of shows that are doign great tthat will stay on the air till the ratings arent good (example. while you where out, american choppers, monster garage, monster house, and junk yard wars are a few) NOw what i was thinking about espn. They have alot of time spots they could fill. I mean they have games like Beg, borrow, and deal. and as i watch tv in the afternoon and when baseball is on they have something like fishing or huntiing or something. NOw honestly who watches those shows.

I didn't say TLC and Discovery's time slots have become filled; rather, I said getting airtime on TLC or Discovery would be a realistic max (for FIRST) at the moment. I'll take blame for that confusion, though. Carry on.

Now i want to make a point out in all of this, what station would be "best" to have FIRST on... Now i am not sure how many of you remember but i think it was the 1999 or 2000 season, ESPN did show FIRST, and did broadcast some competition(s) [please correct me if i am wrong] and that only lasted that one year. I think it was partially because of WDW's 100 anniversary and they may have shown some of Nats that year but i am not 100% sure as i never saw it...
~Mike

Many moons ago, ESPN covered FIRST annually. I think that they started coverage in '93 or '94, continued for a few years and then ended coverage in '98. The last broadcast was definitely 1998. That year, the agreement between FIRST and ESPN concerning what was being covered was a fiasco, if I remember correctly.

Here is the story from what I recall:

ESPN was at Nationals, covering many matches and interviewing many teams. Our team won Nationals that year, and I remember shoving our kids in front of the camera for ESPN (boy, does that seem like a looong time ago). Obviously, our team was very anxious to see the ESPN broadcast. After a few months of waiting, we started to call the team relations people at FIRST (Lori and all), and they said that there was a major disagreement between FIRST and ESPN.

I heard that ESPN did not like showing all of the logos, flags, banners, and decals for the team sponsors during their 30 minute broadcast. They edited their show so that these logos and such were either not seen or they were blurred out. They showed this edited version to FIRST. FIRST, of course, refused that version. After months of "negotiating", ESPN finally aired a version with logos in the fall of '98.

After that, ESPN never came back to FIRST. I suspect that feathers were ruffled over the "negotiations".

Being a sports nut myself, I decided at that point that ESPN was very hypocritical. They often show billboards at sporting events or on race cars... but they wanted to blur out FIRST sponsors. It looks to me like they were looking for a way out.

Also... there are many threads which discuss this topic. Here is a good one, but it is short: FIRST Marketing thread from 2001

Andy B.

I think done correctly, MTV could be a great way for FIRST to get into the main stream of television. Hear me out,

1) It doesn't have to be live:

This negates any boredom factor, because almost anything can be made to look upbeat and exciting with the right editing, and the right music selection.

2) Focus more on the elimination rounds instead of the qualification rounds:

Although the qualification rounds are great, they do become repetitive and sometimes uneventful. Instead of actually showing matches, I picture more of a "This is what they had to go through to get here" video to impress the audience with the coolest plays and to give them a little bit about what to expect.

3) Follow the 'drama' of the alliances:

If you focus the show more around the elimination rounds, suddenly you can devote individual attention to the repairs, stress and strategy sessions that alliance members have RIGHT before a match. This brings the audience INTO the heart of the competition, ups the excitement for it, and also enables them to become attached emotionally when an alliance wins or loses... and we all know emotion is what drives the entertainment industry.

If MTV were to follow this outline, I am positive they would have a decent show that could pull in decent ratings. That being said... I was also sure about 5 years ago that MTV would be more successful if they actually played music videos :D

OK,
There is a lot of conjecture on how TV works but it isn't rocket science it's just a business. It's about sponsors, even in public television where I work. If you don't have an audience that has a target for advertising, you are unlikely to find a sponsor. Even for a producer to show up at a regional, take a feed from the big screen switched feed and add some wild footage from the pits and interviews, then edit the whole thing together into a one hour show would cost about 50-60 man hours minimum. The producer has to get something out of the bargain and at least needs to get paid for his time, so add another 40 hours onto the show budget. You can see where I am going with this. Put your own figures into the calculation but even at $10/hr plus expenses the bill gets to be several thousand in no time. That sounds cheap I know, but to national advertisers, that is too cheap. They can't afford to advertise a show like that and shell out national advertising dollars. to do so.
Now on to the Discovery channel or TLC or any of the other cable network channels, who are also running a shoestring kind of business. They are looking for shows that already have a sponsor who wants to advertise nationallyand oh by the way, a good audience. More importantly, they want the show for free or nearly free so they can make some money on it. That leaves the producer trying to scrape enough profit to feed himself and bankroll another show. That is why if you really watch some of these documentaries you will see the same video being repeated from show to show. It is cheaper to use something you already own, than to go out and shoot new footage.
Lastly, the ESPN vs. sponsors. I was not involved so I am guessing here, repeat, guessing! If you are televising an event where corporate logos are present everywhere and every sponsor has an equal chance to be on the screen, then there can be no claim that one sponsor got more air time than another. Think Nascar where any vehicle can be seen on the screen. As long as they are still rolling they are going to be in front of a camera at some point. In our competition, that is not the case. Since the event is not broadcast live, editing comes into play and the sponsors would naturally have to compensate for their time on the screen or be "fuzzed out" electronically. Coordinating all that takes an immense amount of time and was probably not worth the effort expended by ESPN.

Our Team Videographer is going to be following us around this season and making a series. We are going to offer it to TLC (The Learning Channel), so far everything is working out and we are still going for it. As far as i know we are going through with it. People are optimistic that TLC will take it but i don't know. We will see i guess.

I think some time in the past CNN covered first, i think that would be something CNN could do. It would be a upbeat story about kids making dreams come true, and that is something that would be nice on tv. As to the music, radio stations do a good job, and i think MTV wouldnt be a bad idea. But we should have a diversity, it would suit everyone. But other than that, we could esentialy get anyone to cover us, its just how much support we show, we cant rely of FIRST for everything, we have to do some stuff on our own!

When I read this, I was really tempted to go off at length on how, as FIRST continues to grow, many teams have lost touch with the core values and philosophy of FIRST. In no small part, this is due to the decreasing frequency for opportunities to hear those messages directly from the people that actually defined them - Dean and Woodie - and the fact that they can't personally sit down with 1000 teams and talk at length about why FIRST was created the way they used to when there were just 93 of us. As a result, many teams are now just making up their own "philosophies of FIRST" to fill the vacuum. And unfortunately, many of them are getting it wrong.

But before I had a chance to get really wound up, another thread connected to this quote from Dean:
We can all help each other a lot by getting back to the roots of the purpose of this organization, and why it really exists. The older, veteran teams can help the younger teams understand the reason and rationale behind FIRST - not by making up their own philosophies, but by getting back to the core messages from Dean and Woodie that drew all of us in the the first place. And younger teams can help by keeping this discussion going and prodding the "old farts" to provide specific references to what FIRST says FIRST is about, and not just our own personal outlooks. Personal anecdotes and success stories are great, but when it comes to defining WHY an organization exists and WHAT it is trying to accomplish, it is always best to go right to the source - in this case, FIRST and Dean and Woodie.

Continue this discussion in this thread.

-dave

Well First off covering FIRST would be cool but you have to go First how would you like to cover it.

So far I've heard MTV, ESPN, Discovery, and TLC mentioned a bunch and heres what I see from them.

First you need a type of show you want to have, for instance, you want MTV, well somehow you have to make your series dramatic, not dramatic as drink mountain dew to you pass out and get rushed to the hospital, but it has to be generally fun to watch. But what would you watch, nationals, regionals, build season? I would kinda forsee something like " What happens when 5 single nerds males meet up with 5 single girls nerd meet up and try to build a robot.. but theres a twist!! 3 of them have to go before the end of build season," you would have a hard time to keep it interesting in the view of the general public and keep a fair view on FIRST. In this case you have bad press.. a distorted view of FIRST. ( mayb I'm more thinking of fox tho )

ESPN sounds like we've been there done that, and relations were not strong.

Discovery Channel, everyone keeps talking about there series but remember they run a lot of specials, ie ( all their dinosaur animations.. look what I can do on the computer now! shows )

If you could get an hour special on FIRST this would prob. be the ideal place to do it. But you really need to consider what kind of show they do. Do you do it AMERICAN chopper style. Do you Monster Garage it? Monster garage seems a it? Or would you do a documentory on FIRST in general and concentrate on a few teams.

In this Monster Garage style would seem to be the best offer.. but you'd also have to cover 42 days ( or whatever it is ) and competition ( nationals and regionals ) in an hour show. It could be done as a mini series, mayb. This is prob. our best bet at any type of show however 1 team would get all the press, and it would need to be stressed that FIRST is a real program and everyone can get involved.

I just like the idea because everytime the team gets something for free I wana hear " FREEBee " heh..

if you want TLC.. well you've gotta do like trading robots where you have 2 days to redesign the robot

but see this is the challenge I could go on forever about this.. You first have to spin an Idea ( unless you just want plain and simple documentory ) then you decide on which station it would best flow with.. and you present them to mayb the top 3 choices.

Obviously this could not really be done without going through the powers that be.

But instead of arguin about which stations we would look good on.. spin a tv show or an idea to flow with.

Dan

Ohh and Ps. nobodies mentioned Comedy Central yet.. in this case the whole passing out on mountain dew is a good idea

A lot of there shows are regular series. They usually show the specials on sunday.
Nah more like Junkyard Wars.

There's always public access.

What is the obsession with putting FIRST on TV?

To be honest, I see it as a waste of time, and as soon as FIRST starts pandering to the masses (as it already has) the quality of the program will decrease.

How has it been pandering to the masses. The only thing as far as I can tell was that the game was made simpler which is a god send for everyone.

Then FIRST would become an elitist orginization and that would be far far worse.

What's wrong with an organization that is composed of the "elite"?

I'd rather belong to a group that is composed of people of a certain higher caliber, than a group that allows anyone membership.

And making the game simpler dumbs down the program. It's not a god-send, it's a curse.

Personally, I think FIRST should be somewhat elitist, and it should be someone exclusive. That would mean only people who have a genuine interest in it would participate.

If FIRST were on TV, we would have to go down to the level of the general populace.

You know, the same people whose newspapers are on a 4th grade reading level?

This, in my opinion, is a bad thing.

Ackkk that was never the original intent of the program. It's intention was to get the people who would have never really had a chance to participate and get interested in science and technology.
Not really. Even the simplest souding of challenges can be quite complex to complete. Take robot sumo and trinity firefighting. They both have very very very easy to understand tasks. One is to push the opponents robot out of the ring and the other is to navigate a room and estinguish a candle. Both remaining quite simple for people to understand yet the robots usually become quite complex.
Junkyard Wars is an excellent example of a very educational show while remaining entertaining. Of course it sometimes goes astray but it usually includes something educational.

Actually, yes it was. Go back a read some of the materials that were produced for the early FIRST competitions, up through the second half of the last decade. Talk with team mentors that were around then. Listen to, and read transcripts of, the talks that Dean and Woodie gave at the time.

You will see phrases like:

- "The Olympics of Smarts"
- "FIRST is not your father's science fair; this is bigger, and better - and harder"
- "The educational community in this country is full of programs to help the underachievers and the poor performers - but what about those that do well? Why should we leave them out in the cold, with no dedicated programs to help and nurture THEM?"
- "Yes, we are elitist - we are SUPPOSED to be!"
- "How else can we support the best and the brightest students that we have?"
- "FIRST is the place where the nerds and geeks congregate - and prepare to change the world."
- "FIRST teams are the academic cream of the crop."

FIRST was not originally designed to be a wide-open, anyone can join, all-inclusive, no qualifications required, free-for-all. It was not supposed to be for just anybody, it was supposed to be hard get in. Members of FIRST teams were supposed to be selected from the "best and brightest."

We can argue for a long time about how and why it happened, but FIRST has moved away from this philosophy. We can then argue for a lot longer about whether this is good or bad. But before everyone gets all huffy and indignant about how FIRST has changed - or, alternately, about why it took them so long - think about this. What is wrong with this approach? Why shouldn't FIRST be for the intelligent/academic elite? Why shouldn't it be intended for just the very best students?

Practically every football, basketball, baseball, and other high school varsity sport team in the country has a well-established program to ensure that only the best players of all the applying candidates make it on to the team. You have to practice, you have to try out, you have to pass a series of qualifier workouts, you have to demonstrate an acceptable set of skills, and you have to survive a series of "cuts" to make it on the team. People understand this process, and accept it. Why should FIRST be any different? Isn't having something where you have to earn your way on to a team by being smart a good thing?

Why is it OK to be "elitist" when we select people to be on a team to hit rocks with sticks, but not OK when we try to reach the special group of students that embody the intellectual capital that will define the future of this country?

-dave

I've always viewed FIRST as an organization that hopes to show people how amazing and necessary and ameliorative engineers and technological professionals were. I'll freely admit that I'm certain my ideas and hopes for what FIRST can accomplish are not based in esteemed tradition, founded upon speeches I didn't hear when I wasn't around in 1992 or 1998, even, or that those ideas are still unsanctioned and disliked. So, that said, I'm not sure that my perspective holds relevance when discussing this.

But, how do you inspire an elite few to go on to do something they intended to do anyway? How do you inspire and help people who are already experiencing the benefits of privilege afforded to them by their existing abilities and talents?

Or, put another way, what criteria might one use to determine if someone with no interest in science, engineering or technology contains the potential to perform with some elite team in some elite robotics competition?

Elitism is based on privilege and ability. Inspiration is for those who might have neither. How do you reconcile that difference?

I'm not suggesting that the you're lying about the original intent or anything, Dave, but I just can't get my head around how that method could possibly work. I'd appreciate it if someone could take a moment to explain how elitism and inspiration go hand in hand, or, if its more appropriate, that they don't go together at all and that inspiration is a manufactured sort of faux-goal for FIRST.

All I have to say is the robot Shows don't do well....Period. Keep it on Nasa and maybe make more advertising videos for schools in the off season. Remember most places it's still not "cool" to learn anything, or be a geek. Nothing is wrong with being a geek!!!!!
I know I'm harsh but it's the truth.

Battlebots made it through like 3 or 4 seasons on comedy central who most of the time likes to can shows after like 3 years

What bothers me is FIRST says it wants to "change the culture" and then it only appeals to the intellectually elite and leaves the common man in the dust and basically challanges them to either get it or get left behind.
You can't change the culture unless you appeal to the masses. So what is it FIRST intends to do? Inspire the masses or give the acredemically elite another activity that feeds their minds?
I joined FIRST because it was a means to inspire kids who did not see any other eason to go to school but to "hang out" and wait to graduate and see what happens afterwards. The X-Cats have students from the acedemic spetrum from top line IB students to common students who are borderline cases. We may not build the best robots but we're building better students in the long run and means much much more.

In this day and age, you don't have to get something onto organized media like television or newspaper to get it out, all you need is the internet.

After reading about some team (sorry, don't remember who said it or their team number) applying for a reality TV show about the build season, I got interested in doing something similar myself. There is at class at my school where students go around filming interviews with students about relevant (and sometimes irrelevant) subjects and compile these into a monthly newscast. If these students were recruited to take footage of the build and compile these into weekly 'reality TV' type shows which could then be webcast. Along with a constant webcam running in the robotics room, our site could help recruit people to the team or at least just introduce them to what we took part in. If everyone on our team told one of their non-robotics friends about it and then they told their friends about it and so on and so forth, we could essentialy have a web show about the FIRST Robotics Competition.

This show would only reach a few people outside of our team, but if other teams did this as well, we could have several shows on the internet about the FRC and not have to bother with television at all.

These are just my wierd concepts, if you have any way to make them work, please tell me.

Exactly. Thank you Mr. Lavery.

But that makes no sense Dave. I admire you for your skills, but what happened to changing the world? What about opening up and helping start new teams?

Why does the Olympics of smarts only have to apply to a few A+ Geeks out there?

I almost find it degrading what you said Dave.

I agree that only the smart people will survive, but it should be open to all and have the poor skills people fall out and help the smart.

The robot shows were really never that educational. They were just a twisted and warped comedy show. Though that doesn't mean that educational shows bomb and fail miserably on television. Junkyard Wars is in it's eleventh season which is quite good for any television show.

^Yup^
How are we going to change the culture if FIRST is only open to an elite few?? Puting it on TV would benefit FIRST because it would expose it to more people which is what needs to be done right now. FIRST should be open to anyone who has an interest in Science and Technology and a good work ethic. Why limit it to the Elite?? That's my question :confused:

limit of FIRST participantion...
 

Hope you had a good night sleep the night before ;-), because if you didn’t, chances are you won’t make it to the end of this post.


I've always believed that being who I was will not limit me to who I will be. That's what keeps me trying to learn more and become a better person. Otherwise I would've settled being someone ordinary and not care about anything around my life.

Looking back at 5 years ago, I would have NEVER qualified to be someone in the "special group of students that embody the intellectual capital that will define the future of this country"... Even now I don't think I do. I didn't even want to join the robotics team because I never had the chance to understand the program and what it’s trying to do. I am just an ordinary guy trying hard to do what I think is right and worth while, and I am glad I had the opportunity to slip through the crack and some how be part of a group of bright students that totally deserve to do FIRST, or so FIRST believed.

But, considering students like me in high school who got just as much impact from FIRST as another other bright students, I don't think FIRST did anything wrong to let them participate in the program. I would even go as far as to say, FIRST made a lot of impact because they didn't limit the "quality" of its participants.

But... I am not here to argue what's right and what's wrong. I can only tell people what I believe is the best way to look at this.


People learn at a different pace, and grow up to be different people depending what they've experienced in their lives. Everyone is born to learn whatever is taught to them, and the environment around them shapes them into who they are. Despite some physical limitations, most people have the chance to be successful, given the right opportunities.

There is no real way to judge the effectiveness of FIRST on the students when they haven't even experienced it before. Sometimes it can be really effective on some very bright students in science classes, sometimes it can't. There are many factors, including the level of challenge in the robotics competition, the team the student is going to join, the amount of exposure they got at the competition, etc. Just because someone is bright doesn't mean FIRST is perfect for them, and vice-versa. Maybe there are other programs that can better challenge those bright individuals to become more interested in science/technology, maybe FIRST is the best thing for them. Lots and lots of maybes.

The fact is, we don't know how much impact it will have on the students until they give FIRST a try, and FIRST give them a try.


The core of the issue is, is there really a need to limit who may or may not participant in FIRST?

Well, you have to consider the factors that limit the amount of participants in FIRST Robotics Competition, like the capacities of regionals, and the realistic workload for FIRST, and the amount of resources this country have for FIRST teams... IF there isn't enough room for everybody, how do you decide who can participate and who can't? If there isn't enough money to go around, how do you decide who gets the money?

Then there are things mentioned in an early post in this thread, "Will making FIRST appealing to the masses lower the quality of the competition?" What is the quality of the competition? Is it the amount of excitements in the game? Is it the TV ratings? Is it the level of challenges in the competition? Is it how cool the robots look and perform?


There are too many things to consider, because FRC is a lot of different things mixed together in a big giant salad bowl ;-). There is the part about inspiration and how winning isn't important, and there is the competition part where the students should try their hardest to win, mix that in with how much fun it is to watch the game, and how much go on outside the 6 weeks and competition, you got a salad more complicated then the best of Chefs on the Food network can create. Maybe, the program is still effective even if the game is simpler and more suitable for TV because of what goes on outside the competitions and 6 weeks. Maybe, the game has to be challenging and confusing enough to inspire the students, but cannot be aired on TV because it's not appealing to the audience. Maybe there is no need for TV exposure because FIRST is big enough to draw enough participants. Maybe there is really a need for TV exposure to get more companies/industry to sponsor FIRST. Again, lots and lots of maybes.


In the end, we are just trying to do the best we can, consider as many angle as possible, and make the best decision and live with it. That's what being a grown up is all about. There is no one to tell you what's right and wrong, and you can only do the best you can, and be satisfied.


IMHO, I believe what matters the most is the impact on students. If there is no quality in the effectiveness of the program, there is no reason for it to exist. I believe it is more worthwhile to make a huge impact on a smaller group of students, then to make little impact on everyone students out there. Of course, we WANT to make a huge impact on EVERYONE students out there, but that is impossible right now.

Having said that, I still don't believe there is a need to limit participation level by the level of intelligence of the students. The limit should be based on the realistic amount of events FIRST can hold (determine by the budget, scheduling, and how many teams can play in a match), the amount of resources available to the teams (determined by how complex a machine they have to build), how many students a team can have (determined by how many people can work on the robot and other team activities base on the game), PROVIDING the game will have the MAXIMUM impact on the students and FIRST participants.

But that’s just my opinion.

I find it rather humorous that so many people chant that FIRST is going to "change the culture."

When at the same time, the same people argue that FIRST should be on TV. - The same TV that is a vessel for the sports and violence culture they so dislike and are claiming to try and change.

I honestly don't get it: You want to change the culture by altering FIRST to become more like the culture you are trying to change?

Please tell me again, why FIRST has to be on television.

Please, tell me again, why does FIRST need more teams?

What's more important, quality, or quantity?

I choose the former.

I agree 100% with Mr. Lavery.

And this is probably worthy of a new thread. I'll write an essay and start one up in a day or two.

At no point have I said that FIRST should be more like the culture it wants to change, nor have I supported it's use on national TV for entertainment. I think that showing the benifits using 20/20 or Dateline would be better than having Nats on ABC.

I hope no one in this thread gets the idea that they are "elite" or more "intellectual" than anyone else because they are in FIRST.

The wise are those who know they can't do or know everything. I like what the dude with the red spiky hair said. He types alot but he has good points.

I have already stated my opinion on the TV thing. I want to hear more about that. Please, someone continue.

( ERghh I'm reposting cuz I spent about an hour writing a massive rant, then the power went out.. so here is a shortened more revised version and between the power outtage and reading the elitism posts I'm about to have an anurism )

So you want to be elite? Who choses who the elite are? Is it you ? Is it Dean ? What if you are not deemed intelligent enough for the Elite class? Will you walk off with no argument for it was your idea?

It is true Varsity sports makes cuts, but it is also true that if you still wish to play any sport you can find teams to play on that are more on your skill level, the same can not be said for FIRST. FIRST is going to keep growing because there is a desire by most for it to grow, No one ever gets a chairmans for " sitting around wishing it were just the elite "

If you don't believe me, just go read the recently posted speech by Dean Kamen ( in 1998 ) he never once mentions wanting to restricting to kids with the highest IQ, infact almost through out the entire thing he talks about attempting to get inner city kids who never had a chance to wittness technology at its best, for them to get them involved.

Now thats what FIRST is, and I love it the way it is, if I hadn't, I would not have quit all sports this year ( and that was a big deal, as I was projected to be get a scholarship to a competive d2 college this year for football ) Elitism would just go completely away from any sort of effort to reach that goal. I know if it were elitist I surely would not be involved, nor would I becoming an engineer later on in life.

FIRST will not change the entire culture, but what is wrong with trying to. If you change a handful of people, wasn't it worth it?

I believe if someone has a desire to learn let them in, let them learn, regardless of their intelligence level.

If you have a problem with people who don't want to learn just get involved so they can put it on their college app, and do no work at meetings and they are just a distraction to the team.. by all means, talk to them about their attitude, just like any normal coach would do, and then if they continue to have problems ask them to ship up or ship out.

But if anyone has a general desire to learn or work let them stay regardless if they are ( in internet lingo) " N00b or Leet " .. ( 31337 )

My rant is done.. because it is the 2nd time i've written it

Dan

I hope FIRST is listing to all this

Actually FOX family hasn't been around since a while. It is now ABC Family lol.:)

And just Who is this elite?
 

I agree with Dave Lavery's post.

FIRST in it's final, culture dominating form will be composed of elite students. BUT some of those students will be elite academians who can reseach problems the team wants solved for next year. Others will be elite engineers who actually build what the academians come up with. Still other will be elite machinists who play a CNC mill the way Hiefitz played a violin. Still others will be elite marketers who can figure out just who on another team is making the strategic decisions and market the team to that group or individual. Still others will be elite .... but I think by now you get the point. They all will contribute to the team goals using the unique talents God has given them.

This elite cadre will not be determined by interview or application. They will be determined by their performance at in-school mini-competitions that have been taking place through-out their educational experience.

That is the ultimate destination. But we're not there yet.

When I was in high school, (back when the dinosaurs roamed) we had to do this thing called "the six minute run" in Physical Education. It was some sort of standard test the state required. But, as I was to find out later, everyone who did more than a mile was asked to try out for the cross-country team. Not everybody did, and not all of those who tried out made it. But everybody in the school was exposed to distance running at least once.

Right now, we cannot say that every student is exposed to science and engineering. I could take you to areas of Los Angeles where many people have never knowingly met an engineer, let alone know in any real way what one does. But from seeing some of the cars and bikes the people who live there come up with, I'll bet that more than a few of them have great potential. They just don't know it.

There are few people who are really good at hitting rocks with sticks that don't know it in this country. But I've seen many who would make pretty good engineers that never thought about becoming one. Because there was no way for them to realize that they were better than other people at being one.

That is part of what FIRST is about. Helping those that excell in the skills required for science and engineering realize that they are good at it, and that it is important, and that by doing what they are good at and enjoy they can change the world.

Some schools already have the problem that they have more students that will benefit from FIRST than they can support. Other schools do not. Each must find a way to do the best for their students. One solution will not work for all.

At this point I don't think teams should be too restrictive about who is on them. But in 10 or 20 years, when you who are students now are complaining to your child's high school principal that the Robot team didn't do well in the citywide competition, and schools are moaning about having dismantled their shops years before, it may be a different story.

Re: And just Who is this elite?
 

I truly hope that FIRST does not get that way because the day they do I will walk away from it and never look back.

Re: Re: And just Who is this elite?
 

I agree totally. Same with Ken. I would never be in FIRST now because I wouldn't match the elietness that they want. Also, I will drop FIRST if they go the way Dave explained. That's the way Battlebots fell, and it will be FIRST's demise too.

Silly for us to look for a better form of education in FIRST?
 

Looking at how much the program cost teams to build a robot and compete at competitions, and the format of the competition, EVEN if there is a team in every high school around the country, there won't be enough room on the team to allow EVERYONE in the school to join the team. It's kinda like we would love to have 1 teacher per students, but we will never have enough teachers or money to do that.

Maybe it’s something about what we saw FIRST done in students that gave us hope that maybe there is for education after all. That's it, isn't it? When we see students who never did well in school suddenly take an interest in science and engineering, and started to get A's at their classes, we can't help but feel, "Maybe this is a better form of education than we're used to."

Only, it's not that simple. We cannot expect programs like FIRST to fix everything there is in the current education system. They can HELP inspire kids into science, technology, and engineering, but they cannot replace the education system to teach kids to be better people... Not at the cost of the competition right now.

You see, a feeling I get about FIRST after many years in it is that some how some of the people don't expect students to participate in the competition to get inspired. They think as long as the students get to go watch the competitions, they will get inspired/interested to go into science/technology/engineering majors. Kinda like thinking that a TV show, or a movie, or a demonstration can be shown to thousands and thousands of people and benefit them all. Of course, not everyone thinks that, and the groups I've been with think opposite of that and believe students participation in the competition is crucial to being able to inspire and educate them about being better people.

I am not sure if there is ANYONE who actually thinks what I said above about students participation isn't needed for inspiration, but some how I get the feeling that some do think that after hearing what was said among FIRSTers. But it’s certainly not what I believe in. Some say FIRST isn't about education at all... Well, I guess it was silly of me that I actually kinda did, and have been trying to search for a better education system.

You see, I am disgusted by how some of the existing education systems out that did horribly to teach kids to become better people. I've suffered in Hong Kong education for 11 years, and zero minute of have those years I’ve learned anything I care about. I was lectured at in different facts, and told to memorize stuff that's supposed to be useful but never have a chance to use in real life other thank home work assignments, and I didn't care any bit about anything when I left Hong Kong. The American education system is way better than what I had in Hong Kong, but again, I was told I have to study for SATs, and take AP tests, and get lectured at things and do homework assignments even though I never use those things in my real life here in the US as well.

I asked a bunch of people, and they all say they don't use most of what they learn in high school after they grew up and started working. That's not saying they didn't use the English they were taught, or basic math, but that's pretty much about it, the basic. Instead of teaching problem solving skills, knowing the schools will never teach enough to the students about life or being a human being, all I see is the schools deciding what is best for students and funneling all the knowledge they think is best suited for students, and demand each of them to get all the questions right in tests.

But FIRST isn't like that. In FIRST, you have the overall problem of the competition, and you do EVERYTHING humanly possibly to try to build a good machine to do well in the game. FIRST doesn't tell the students what they HAVE TO LEARN, and instead sit aside and let the students learn to solve problems, and learn to seek help. And that, I believe, is a better form of education.

But maybe it's silly of us to think FIRST as a new approach to education. But hey, FIRST is only a technology to get students inspired for science, technology, and engineering... Maybe FIRST is too costly for every student to participate… Maybe there just isn’t enough room for everyone if it takes so much to inspire so little… If we really care about changing the education system, maybe we gotta look over FIRST into more areas of effective education programs, or maybe start some ourselves. That would be nice, wouldn’t it ;-), to have an effective education system for all students and help them to be better human beings?

And that continue to be my wishes.

A lot of stuff I have learned in school is only meant to inspire you want to do when you grow up. I certainly hope so or else there will certainly be problems. I really hope I am not going to use any of my forensic knowledge I learned in school. My school has electives which are really only meant to show you what you can do or you can take a bunch of specifically related electives and get a sequence in them. There are certainly enough courses to take depending on your interests. Also a lot of the stuff you learn in math and science will generally carry over as I have discovered. I was annoying my friends because every time I learned a new formula in physics all I did was pick up my robotics book and there it was. Though I seriously doubt I will have any use for chemistry or even biology for that matter. In pre-calculus my math teacher would always give us math problems that would at least relate to something involving the real world. Of course it also helped that he was a former engineer and he talked about it to us.

quote:
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I agree totally. Same with Ken. I would never be in FIRST now because I wouldn't match the elietness that they want. Also, I will drop FIRST if they go the way Dave explained. That's the way Battlebots fell, and it will be FIRST's demise too.
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Errr Battlebots never fell because it was too elite. Anyone could have participated in it no matter how much of a background you had and usually everyone did.

Sorry to throw the thread off, and back to it's originating discussion.. however, I got thinking this weekend while I was away......

PBS? I'm sure it is a nation wide station. It would be a wonderful place to start. This was sparked after I read an article that there is going to be a series done on Little League. PBS is both educational and family oriented. It would deff. spread the word, and put a spark in a child's mind.

/end rant

I'll just say one thing with little (read: no) explanation.. I honestly don't like the way many individuals in this thread are explaining the goal of FIRST. Perhaps their view (like in Dean's speech, for example, since he founded FIRST) is correct; however, it is VERY different from the messages put across some schools and sponsors in an effort to start or maintain current teams; it is also very different from the "idea of FIRST" told some high school students/college students/engineers to allow them to become part of this organization; it is very different from what I was told coming into this program. In watching the last four kickoffs, and being part of this organization for a little while, I have come to see and understand the true purpose of FIRST, or so I thought. Elite organization? Never saw or believed that would be coming....

Dave didn't say that it IS an elite organization, just that when it started it was INTENDED to be. All he did was point out that the statement:

Ackkk that was never the original intent of the program. It's intention was to get the people who would have never really had a chance to participate and get interested in science and technology.

is incorrect. Maybe thats the the situation now, but apparently that wasn't how it started.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about putting FIRST on TV. I think it would be challenging to broadcast the competition and make it interesting. Plus then you'll get the BotBall and RoboCup teams wanting their airtime too. Getting a segment on one of the news magazines would be a good way to get some exposure without overdoing it.

But people started to compete just to get on TV, not for the fun of it. But only the great were on TV. That's how it then fell.

FIRST doesn't need to be on TV, but it would be a benefit if it was. Why do we need more teams?? Because we want this amazing experience known as the FIRST Robotics Competition to continue to grow!! Why wouldn't we want others to be exposed to one of if not the greatest thing we have ever been invovled in?? In my opinion, FIRST should be there to inspire ALL, not the chosen few, not the "elite".

My 2 cents

On the day when the "Andy Baker Rookie Season FIRST Trading Card" sells for $10,000 on eBay, FIRST will have achieved its objective.

When Dave Lavery becomes wealthy through his official line of FIRST Hawaiian shirts, FIRST will have achieved its objective.

When the nation stops what it is doing on a Saturday in mid-April to watch the FIRST National Championships, FIRST will have achieved its objective. (How's that for getting this back on topic?)

When little Johnny's parents complain to the school board that the mathematics education in their middle school is inadequate and preventing Johnny from making the robotics team when he reaches high school, FIRST will have achieved its objective.

You don't have to be academically brilliant to become an engineer. You just have to work really hard from an early age developing your mind and your imagination. It is far easier to become a good engineer and contribute to the development of society than to become a great baseball player and contribute to society's decline.

It is far easier for an inner city youth to climb out of his situation through education than through developing the uncanny ability to hurl a spherical object through a hoop from 20 feet away.

Why don't more people do this?

Because the culture:
1. doesn't communicate that it is an option
2. doesn't obviously value this option
3. does adulate the very few (ie the elite) men who can hit rocks with sticks

FIRST's mechanism to change this is to invest an elite of engineering talent with a "sports-like" reward, to involve these people with the younger generation who will supercede them, and to disseminate this message as widely as possible.

If FIRST rewarded mediocrity, where would we be? [The answer is "Nowheresville, man."]

That having been said, I don't think any one of the luminaries who have advocated for an elite are trying to say limit who you try to reach. Most of the elite teams will give anyone a chance. That chance may take a variety of forms and there may be a standard that you have to reach before you are given that chance.

However, few teams have the resources to carry a lot of dead weight. Chances are, if you are not moving towards the team's objectives, you're going to get cut. Better luck next year.

There are other teams who are in it for the fun and comaraderie. Who just want to put together a little robot, get to competition, and have a good time. THAT's OK, TOO. Just don't expect to win big Cupie Doll.

Perhaps I could have explained my point of view better. Some people seem to have read things in my previous post that I did not intend. Probably because it made certain assumptions about the future that were not really made clear. Let's try a real life current example.

How many people do you know who ever played sandlot football or baseball or pickup basketball games in the park or at school? Virtually everybody right? Call it 99%

Now how many of those people played in an organized league like a recreation league or Pop Warner football or AYSO soccer? The numbers are a bit smaller but still pretty large. These days I'd say 75% is conservative.

But let's take it further. How many of those continued to play in high school on their school's sports teams. Big drop in numbers right? I drop out here myself. Maybe 10%

When you take the next steps to college and the professional ranks (let's include top level amatures like Olympians in this bunch) the drop is huge, at each step. Just to throw out numbers and to account for obscure sports call it 2% and 0.01%

Personally I know exactly two people who played football at big name colleges, and two others who are retired professional football players. One of those was a teacher at my high school, I think he played for two seasons. That is probably more than most of you know.

Nobody thinks there is anything wrong about this. That there should be this winnowing process selecting for skills that are rarely, if ever, needed in real life. Like hitting a rock with a stick or throwing an odd shaped object while somebody is trying to knock you down.

Why should there be a problem with having an elite team of technologists to play robotic sports using skills that are actually useful in the real world? If FIRST is truly successful in changing the culture that is probably what will happen. FIRST may not be the best competition at that point in terms of technology. It will almost certainly not be the only one. In fact there will probably be little city and county leagues all over rather than a single large entity.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY WILL BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE AT SOME LEVEL, IF THEY WISH. Because if we accomplish our goal, we will be pervasive and so commonplace that we will be like AYSO and everyone will play.

But there will obviously be some who are better than others, and people being what they are, some will attempt to bring together teams of "the best of the best". That is where the elite part comes in.

It was only in the 1880's that sports became a big part of American life. Sure people played games outdoors before that, but it was all pretty casual. Over time it got to be a bigger and bigger deal. Now it's hard to find stuff that doesn't have a sports logo on it. I think it will take the same sort of 20-50 year time frame for this to develop. Maybe, when you students have kids of your own in high school we will have this sort of scenario. But even then I think that time frame is optomistic, more likely your grandchildren.


Just an odd thought. FIRST competitions tend to distort odd corners of the hardware market. For example two years ago we cleaned out the national supply of 1 1/4" pipe flanges. When one of the guys on our team called a major West Coast plumbing distributor, the distributor told him that "The flanges aren't available anywhere, and what the heck was going on anyway? They'd never seen so much demand for that part" In one week FIRST had demand for 50,000 (estimated based on two goals per team for 800 teams) of a part that would typically sit in inventory for years at your average plumbing store. In previous years it was KeeKlamps. I think somebody tipped off Sterlite or last year might have been pretty ugly too. I can't imagine that the sales of Sterlite containers that just happened to be Kickoff weekend were a coincidence.

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare if as many high schools had FIRST teams as have football teams? If we get that big we will NEED to break up into smaller leagues. Otherwise just getting the parts might be a real nightmare.

Sorry, but I'm going to follow Ashley's lead...
Sorry to throw the thread off, and back to its originating discussion...

...PBS?...

I think PBS is a great idea! They have the right demographical vewer base to enjoy this, work as a non-profit orginization so they don't need to show shows only to make money, and its the Public Broadcast Station, or in other words the one basic station that operates almost anywhere. What would we do without people like Ashley...Thanks again!

Mike

...hmmm...I pased my 1440 minutes. oh,well.

Chris H.

I did misread your comments b4, I agree in the future there will be a need for something like local competitions break off and the like. But that does not make FIRST in itself elite, its still available to all.

You can have more teams depending on skill level and this may in the future be essential. Only the best teams move on to regionals and nationals.. just as in a varsity sport style. But as for right now.. I don't see that elitism has its place in FIRST, In the future, well thats another case.

In the future it may be almost nesc. other wise your going to have some of the choas that you described.

Dan

Thank you! It is nice to know that someone actually read my post before firing off a response!

Before anyone quickly jumps on the "Dave's wrong" or the "I agree with Dave" bandwagons, they should probably make sure that they know what my position is. I have been very careful not to articulate whether I agreed or disagreed with the past FIRST intent, or whether I agree or disagree with the current approach. When composing that post, I was very careful to make sure that it did only two things: provide a little history on some of the philosophies that FIRST used to have, and ask a few pointed questions about the implications of those philosophies.

Those questions are asked for a very simple reason - to see if you have thought about the "why" and "how" of what we and FIRST are doing. These are hard questions - they are supposed to be, and they are supposed to make you think.

Have you really thought about who this program is intended to reach? Are you satisfied with what you perceive to be the answer to that question? If you agree with it, have you actively supported the growth of that target audience? If you disagree, have you actively tried to change it? In other words, have you become a participant in defining what FIRST is about? Or are you just going with the flow, and accepting the baseline philosophies of your team, your school, or FIRST, without really thinking about how well they match/don't match what YOU believe?

Can you provide a well thought out answer to these questions, without resorting to a politically correct, knee-jerk reaction:
Note that I am NOT saying which answer is "right" or "wrong" - that is not my role, nor is it within my authority. But I do know that if you haven't really thought about this question, then you are unprepared to really understand and defend - or understand and change - this program that you all profess to support so much.

-dave

p.s. KenLeung - whether you recognize it or not, I do consider you part of the "special group of students that embody the intellectual capital that will define the future of this country." Being part of this group has almost nothing to do with how many times "A+" shows up on a report card. It has an enormous amount to do with how hard you are willing to work, how well you can take lessons learned and apply them to new problems, how long you will chew at a problem until it is solved, whether you are self-motivated enough to do a job without hand-holding, your leadership skills, perseverance, ability to decompose a problem back to first principles, and a lot of other poorly-quantified attributes. These are abilities that I have seen you - and many, many other people in FIRST - demonstrate. And I would posit that the people that can do this ARE part of an "elite" group.

But, while I agree that it's hard work that makes the person, it's the sad fact that grades will end up being a factor along with if your in the correct classes (advanced, CAD, etc.) When FIRST becomes the new soccer-mom crazed (negative term), bad sportsmanship sport, it won't matter if Dean's speech is 48 hours long, people will act with disrespect once they discover the 'virtues' of FIRST.

I'd hate to see the day where FIRST is a try out sport where kids are ridiculed for not making it a la Football and parents get into fist fights. It's happened at innocent sports such as football, soccer, baseball, etc, so why not at FIRST? This is what I fear the most, a hijacking of FIRST by our current culture, not to change the culture, but to spread it's influences like a virus, killing off the Andy Bakers, Ken's, and Dave Lavery's of FIRST, leaving it hollow, shallow, and based on money.

*end rant*

Since this post was right after mine, I just want to point out that I didn't say Dave referred to FIRST as an elite organization. In fact, I referred to the general mood of the posts in this thread and did not mention any names. This post may or may not have been pointed at me, but I thought I should just make that clear :rolleyes:.

Sorry to " jump on that wagon " however when presenting an argument where your argument is one sided its kinda hard to understand that you were not displaying your oppinions. Usually its good to present 2 sides in an argument like that.

I do not mean to be disrespectful to anyone, I just care about FIRST so much as a program. If I didn't I don't believe I would put so many hours into it year after year. Thus my defending my position so strongly.

I've never agreed with anything that was " elite " so its kind of like something It makes me automatically rebel against the idea. I've always been about equal opportunity, and not towards the social darwinistic servival of the fittest Ideals.

Hrmm.. someone should just email dean and woody and get this debate over with

I'm officially done.. Its pointless to argue, the fact of the matter is, we are actively involved with FIRST and care about it dearly. We don't want to see it be damaged in any way, and we want it to see it grow in the best ways possible, and we only argue cuz we care, and no matter which way it becomes it the future, I believe it will all work out for the best.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in I'm Irish I get heated, and express my views, and sometimes they come off angry

Dan

Thanks for the compliment, Dave :-). I’ve always had problems with confidence, because I feel so little standing among myriad of greatness (Andy, Jason, you, Ken Krieger, etc). Little did I realize that reaction is not as uncommon as I thought.

Anyway… Notice I didn't say what's right or wrong, only my point of view on the concept of "elite". And what I was saying was, looking back at 5 years ago, I wouldn't have tried so hard when I first started with the team. It is hard to get students to understand what FIRST is about if they've never experienced the competition before. Which is why I think it is hard to pick out the elite students, and because it is so hard to define what an elite is. I believe it is much easier when every student is exposed to a similar experience before they join FIRST.


Before I go any further, I ask that the moderators (Brandon ;-) ) split these posts into its own thread. The original topic is about FIRST on TV, and I think it's a worthwhile discussion of its own.

And also, I want to point out how much I enjoy the direction this discussion is going. People are reading what was being said by others, take their time to think it out, absorb the material, figure out what they think, and clearly express those thoughts to others elegantly (well, except my essays :-P). That's about the best way to have a constructive discussion. You see, there is no need to say who is right or wrong in a discussion ;-). Just take the time to understand what others are saying, and discussions are so much better!

Mike et. al.,
Yes PBS would be ideal for this type of show but one thing jumps in to block any hope and that is funding. PBS has so little money for show development that even if they threw all of it (the annual budget for show development) into this show, it would not be enough. I work for a PBS station in Chicago, the most watched PBS station in the country, and I had to beat down doors to get a news crew out to the Midwest regional for a two minute piece. What was more surprising is that the reporter had spent hours on this competition when he worked for FOXthing In The Morning. Even with local teams coming home with an International Championship (Hammond/Beatty and now Wildstang) over several years, there has been little to no coverage in this market. If we were to find an underwriter for the show, I am sure it could be ported to PBS national for distribution. Back in the dark ages (1970's and 1980's) a young(er) mechanical engineering prof at MIT held an annual competition that was broadcast from Boston to PBS stations around the country and it got audience!

Wasn't that Woody?? I think my advisor has all of those tapes.

If anyone is interested i found the layout for the TV show our team will most likely be doing. Show Layout

I definitely do not want to go off on a tangent. So here I go...

Last year at Nationals (Houston) I thought it would be really cool if John Madden just came in and did the commentary to the Championship game. It would be shown on public television, and viewers would be able to see instant replays, and all the cool effects. We could probably use Fox's Preseason Football Theme Song in there...but it has copyright protection. It was in a football stadium. Its just an idea which I thought would be pretty neat.

Okay...back on subject.

I just want to let everybody know that I really enjoy the reading the posts on this thread. There were several interesting ideas, and opinions expressed. This is when my English teacher tells me to provide an example of why I think this is so. But since there were numerous good opinions expressed, it would be an injustice to name only one example. And no, I am not going to list all of the examples, since that would be redundant, and would take up several pages. I really do not want to use this old time cliché, so in closing, keep up the good work! :D

Has anybody mentioned Tech TV