For the most part, this has been a thoughtful and respectful thread. There are many good posts by good people.

I have two observations:

1. It makes me feel like a proud father to see many of you mature over the years. I see people respecting other's opinions (for the most part), even though they disagree with them. I see many people in this thread who would've flamed each other a year ago.

Don't get me wrong... healthy debate is good. But when you start attacking someone else's personal beliefs, that is when people get defensive and they tell you to stop.

2. I consider the people who post on the CD Forums to be fairly smart people. I would assume that almost all of you have above average intelligence. With this said, it amazes me that all of these smart people have such different beliefs when it comes to religion and politics. Within this crowd of fairly smart people, there are atheists, very religious people, die-hard Democrats, and right-wing Republicans. The neat thing is that, for the most part, we all get along fairly well.

For example... I just called my friend Bill Gold for a simple favor. Bill is a great guy. I've known him for about 3 years. We both know that we differ on some controversial issues, but we still consider each other friends. I can call him for a favor and he can do the same with me. I value our friendship. It's OK that we disagree on some issues. We still respect each other even though we disagree. It's OK. It really is. People are going to disagree... as long as the respect is there.

So, debate. Voice your opinion. But... as you are proving your intelligence, be respectful. Hey... maybe I have something there. Maybe this "Respectful Intelligence" is a derivative of "Gracious Professionalism". Hmmm.

Be good,
Andy B.

atheism is a religion...you believe in something just like other religions...

It has to be fairly high. I rember there was a recent poll that said that 70 percent of people did not want refrences of god removed from the public.
Actually science belives now that parallel universes probably exists due to the laws of probability.
I personally belive a higher enitity does exisist. I just do not know what.

Coincidentally, that means that there actually is a "heaven" and a "hell" for each religion somewhere out there, because there is a small, but non-zero probability of a world fitting any description existing.

Okay, I'm aware that this is kind of nitpicky, but it bothered me.

Athiesm is not a belief in something. It is the lack of belief in something (God).

I suppose by definition four that one could claim athiesm to be a religion, but this would only be true when someone actively does not believe in God, which is usually not the case. Disbelief in something is fairly passive activity, wouldn't you say?

Well, atheism is too a broad belief to be called a religion. It isn't really a religion, because there are recognized religions that branch off from it. Atheism simply means a lack of theism, so calling it a religion isn't really accurate, no?

The argument of "atheism as a religion" reminds me very much of two things: the first is null is not zero, and the second is the concept of mu (not the coefficient of friction or the Greek letter).

Well, everyone else has been so good to share, so I may as well add in my little bit. I've been born and raised Catholic, and I definately believe in God. He has helped me get through things that I never thought possible. I've seen people that were said to have less than 10% chance of survival after car accidents completely cured following prayer masses, and I believe. I don't like how in my religion, you just recite a prayer, because to me, reciting words week after week really doesn't mean anything. I guess that I feel God spiritually, just not in the way that my faith does.

Atheism is no more a religion than, say, monotheism.

You should have included a "Not Sure" for the agnostics. There are more of them then you may realize. Unfortunately, there are probably more people who don't know what an agnostic is than there are people who declare themselves agnostic.

This thread is very interesting. It reminds me of the "Philosophy of Religion" class took last semester. The whole class was arguments for and against the existence of God so I've been comparing the arguments on this thread to ones I learned. On the first day of class the prof took an anonymous poll of everyone's belief. Everyone had to classify themselves as "Theist", "Atheist" or "Agnostic" and "Hostile" (I am right and you are so very wrong) or "Friendly" (I am very open-minded about the whole thing). Then he took the same poll after the Final. Here are the results:

BEFORE:
Theist: 27 Friendly, 3 Hostile
Agnostic: 10 Friendly, 2 Hostile
Atheist: 2 Friendly, 1 Hostile

AFTER:
Theist: 28 Friendly, 4 Hostile
Agnostic: 6 Friendly, 2 Hostile
Atheist: 6 Friendly, 0 Hostile

(Note: 1 more person was polled in the After poll)
Interpret that data how you will. I am one of those Friendly Agnostics that stuck around the camp (Open-mindedness is a value I try to live by). Here are a few quotes:

"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means. "
Clarence Darrow (Scopes trial, Dayton, Tennessee, July 13, 1925)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"Hostile Agnostic. I don't know and neither do you"
Bumper Sticker

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

If anyone wants to learn about well established philsophical agruements about God, just wants to debate this stuff, or wonders what an agnostic is, feel free to AIM me at "The Lucas 365"

wow, interesting thread!

some thoughts to ponder:

Science vs religion: Science and religion dont mix for a very simple reason. Science deals with things that are controllable, predictable and repeatable. Try to apply the rules of science to humans and see if you can draw any conclusions to prove anything. People respond to stimuli in different and completely unpredictable ways. Extend that out to God, and there is no experiment you can conduct to prove or disprove anything concerning God or religon, because you cannot put God into your laboratory condtions, you cant control God, and God would be infinitely beyond our ability to comprehend, so how could we predict what God would do in any given situation (in response to any test conditions we come up with)?

religon and conflict. Another problem here. Even if you take the existance of God as a given, now you have an even bigger problem: defining Gods nature. There are as many possible concepts of what you think God is (what God does, how God interacts with man, Gods character...) as there are people on the earth. The conflicts that arise from religion always stem from disagreement over what we think God wants us to do.

God and you. When I was taking philosophy and logic courses in college I gave religion a lot of thought, trying to figure out if it was possible to determine if God is real or not. I spent several days contemplating what sign God could give me (or anyone) to indicate that He is there, that He is real. I came to the conclusion that the only perfect sign (one that could not be a coincidence) would be if God came to you personally in some way, and interacted with you on a personal level, revealed Himself.

and in the end, isnt that what its really all about? if God is not interested in interacting with you on a personal level, then it doesnt really matter if God exists or not, right? If you never have any personal interaction with God, then what difference does it make if God exists or not?

Thats why these discussions always come down to the point where we must all concede that our religious beliefs are a personal matter. If God has revealed Himself to me, there is nothing I can say or do to convince anyone esle of that. God has to deal with each of us one by one.

For the record, millions of people state they do have such a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, and I am one of them.

all i have too say is that something cannot come from nothing so there must have been a god to create every thing and there must be a god after the great season 231 had last year and all the help ive had starting a rookie tean\m this year!!!!!

Im going to throw my two cents in here, mostly because no one has really said what i have to say.

I dont follow any of the Judo-Christian religions, im solitary eclectic Wiccan. I do invact believe in God (God with a big "G" generally refering to Jahova). But reading the Bible ive found that his rules and edicts are too contradicting for me to justify following them, and when it comes right down to it, i dont like Jahova. I wont go into why, because it would offend alot of people and thats not what im here for.

Im a very logical, scientific person, so the contradictory statements of the Bible doenst sit well with me. Most people think it is very strange that a scientist like me believes in something like magick. But i find magick is a very good blend of science and religion; its a good go between if you look at it the right way. Magick requires believe in something that cannot be tested or usually seen, like religion, but it is brought about by strict, logical rules and methods like science.

Personally i favor the egyptian pantheon (Isis being my favorite) over other gods and goddesses, but thats not saying i dont recognize them. I feel that the divinity that permiates all things, the All, Gaia, ect. whatever you want to call it, is formless, incomprehensable and unknowable. But we as humans have given the All form and shape, substance and voice, breath and life.

All gods and goddesses are the right god and goddess, as long as you arnt harming yourself or others in thier names. Isis, Jahova, the God and Goddess, Thor, Pan, Zues, Bast, or no religion at all, they are all equally valid. Many paths lead to the same clearing in the forest.

I think many people forget the most important point of any good religion, and the Wiccan Rede sums it up pretty well. "And it harme none, do as ye will." I think we forget that all to often.

Im not here to preach anything, and if it seems like i am, or if im offending you, i apologize. I am just voiceing my views on the subject. If by some chance one of you would like to learn more about Wicca or other pagan beliefs, i would be happy to help you find that information. You can email me at tarsen@goldenwyvern.org or AIM be at ChibiTarsen.

Thank you for listening.

Tarsen,

I agree with your post on a couple things. There are forms of religion that do have a scientific aspect to them, you experiment with it and see what happens. I was really into the new age movement about 17 years ago.

One thing about this though, you have to be willing to accept any concequences if the experiment produces results you didnt expect.

I also understand what you said about the bible containing contradictions. There are many places where it seems to be saying one thing, then later it says the opposite. Its been my experince that if you study these things you have to take a step back to understand what is really going on there.

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to sit down and right up the sum of my religious experiences. I have a copy of it in PDF format on my aol account. If anyone wants to read it, its over 50 pages long. If nothing else, it is interesting what we learn along the way when we really put ourselves into a serious spiritual search.

http://members.aol.com/wittlief/testimony.htm

agreed, magick can be dangerous. but luckily i dont have delustions of great power and the spells i weave are tiny things ment to make my life easier and healing spells. im not foolish enough to think i can control dark forces or anything.