God
 

Ok I kno this is a contrivertial topic n' all but I was wondering how many of you out there beleive in God? And if you do or don't y or y not?

if there was a god, then who created god?

If there was a God he would be there from the start. The logic of God being there is that he has been there since the beginning. God has always been there and always will be.

The only evidence I've ever found for God is that Pi is Pi, and not just 3.

God must be purposefully making the math harder.

-Andy A.

If there was a Big Bang where did the singularity come from? (by which point I mean that we know that the universe has a definate 'starting point.' The logic is that for the Big Bang to happen, all the conditions that caused it to happen would have had to existed . . but if the conditions were not caused by an outside power then they would have always existed, and therefore the big bang would have gone off an infinite amount of time ago . . a paradox. The argument is that god is the uncaused cause.

I believe in a god, but I don't believe that god takes an active role in influencing human life, nor do I accept Catholicism ( i was raised Catholic).

I belief that any belief/prayer should be personal and not a public ceremony. But thats just me.

I'd rather not get into all my views on the topic of religion, for fear that this thread would be closed in about 2 picoseconds, but the basic jist of it is that I believe there is some sort of greater force, perhaps not "God" per se, but something that created everything else. It might not be sentinent, it might be, but it's there, although not taking an active role in the universe at the moment. It's sort of a twisted deism (I think that's spelled right).

I was raised Jewish, but I believe that everything that comes from the Torah and stuff is not from "God", but stories told similar to Aesop's Fables, something to tell you how to live, and hwo to treat others, so that your life will be fullfilling and meaningful.

Oh well, in any case, I'm still going to synagogue this weekend for Rosh Hashanah, and I did my Eagle Project at my synagogue, so I'm not completely against what Judiasm teaches :p.

If you really want to hear all my theories on religion itself, PM me or something, cause as I said before, it's sure to start a flamewar here...

Re: God
 

Yep...

We should place bets.. er, ventures, on how long it will be before this thread gets closed. :)

As for the topic, I'm an atheist. I don't spend my time caring about it - I just don't care.

Ow, my brain hurts
 

The Big Bang singularity contained our dimensions. Space and time are dimensions. Before the Big Bang there was no time, no space, no nothing. Does this paradox answer your question? :p

This has already been well discussed on these forums... many opionions are here.

My reply is the same as it was then. Currently, this thread is benign. Keep the attacks and criticisms out of it and it will be OK. My opinions are different from many here, but that is OK.

Andy B.

Heh. I was about to say the exact same thing. Sadly, however, all but the first of my posts in that thread are immaterial.

Play nice, children.

Yes.
God is real.

I believe in God.. although my faith in my religion is shakey at best, I do believe in God.

Yeah... I'd rather not go into my views of religion too, also for fear of this topic being closed faster than you can say "Brandon Martus"

Brandon Martus!

Alright, who said that! I'll send a hurricane your way!!!

Er, back on topic, I'll keep it brief. I don't like it when many different people try to sell me many different angles on life. So I have never been religious in my life. Science disproves everything religion tries to prove anyway. Personally, I don't believe in god, but I do think this should be a serious conversation nonetheless.

Religion is based on faith, without facts and logic the way science is supported. I don't like believing something "just because."

Well, I'm Roman Catholic, but I don't belive in the God that is on the Simpsons, where there is a guy with a white beard up in the clouds. I think God is why things are and how they work. I don't think god runs around and helps with our lives. I think God just keeps everying ok through checks and blanaces.

But the best part of God is that you just have to know, there isn't a 100% proof that God is real. I know that us geeks hate just beliveing just because, but I do it.

*end rant*

I am raised in a protestant home. and i do Believe in God. I have gone to a christian school all my life. If you look at charlie darwins life at the end of his life he said that his theory could not be right and he did acknowledge that evolution can be real. (right now i am gonna start talkinga bout different beliefs ia m not putting it down so dont get on my back just my opinion) Just look at the most simplest cell in your body. Even tho its the most simplest scientist cant even make a 100% diagram of it. HOw could that just come together. Gosh i wish i had philosphy HW this weekend so i would have my notebook. God is the beginning this is nothing before him. Gosh i really wish i had my bible notes here well if anyone wants to debate or talk with me you can pm me

After putting ~30 minutes of thought into analyzing my beliefs I'd say that I don't believe in a God or multiple Gods. But I might be open to the old "clock maker(s) who walked away from his/her/their creation" concept. In any case, I don't feel the need to attend a church service, and I do believe in nothingness (aside from lots of rotting [except for those who are cremated]) after death. I'm even less inclined to accept documents written by people (and are therefore fallible) as the word/command of a God. This isn't to say that I don't respect peoples' beliefs in their Gods. I think people should be perfectly free to practice their religions as they wish. I just don't want people to attempt to force me to join in ("Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, "In God We Trust" on money, the 10 Commandments on display for the public in Local, State, and Federal buildings, et cetera). I guess I'll stop before I start some sort of flame war.

Not this again!

Yes this again....
Srry didn't notice the religion post earlier, but I have been having this debate w/ some of my friends on anther site and it is been going on for about a week, and it's already over 14 pages. And I was just wondering how many religious ppl we have in FIRST.

Personally I beleive there is a God. And for those who don't beleive, just look at nature and tell me that it all came from a pile of inorganic matter, and works so perfectly now. God's out there...

If it didn't work perfectly, we wouldn't be here wondering about it. Evidence has shown that the universe is infinitely large, and uniformly ful of matter, so why can't it have happened?

First off science has never explained where the universe came from. They say that Stephen Hawkings (sp) found the equations that created the earth, and created the theory of randomally appering matter. One question for this, since we have the equation y can't we create our own randomally appearing matter, and if it happened before, y don't we occationally see something just appear out of nowhere. And if you say well the universe was just there, then where did all the dust and derbis come from?

Here's what scientists do... just because they don't know something, they don't automatically attribute it so something else, ie. god. Yeah, I agree, it's pretty freaking confusing as how stuff exists, but just because it's confusing doesn't mean I will try to fill up that void of confusion with god.

A good book to read that provides a look at a scientist who struggles quite a bit with religion is "Contact", by a local Ithacan (we have a planetwalk in his honor), Carl Sagan.

From the book:
My favorite quote:

Same here, I am spiritual not religious. My mom (redheadjokes) found a quote about it. Don't know who said it though.

"Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell, spirituality is for those that have already been there,"

This post brings up a very interesting thought. I think that the results of this post so far are so close because in most cases, one either believes in science, or religion. personally i believe in science. I want sure evidence that there is a god or isn't. So, i voted no. But I'm also a confirmed catholic. I haven't decided if that was a mistake or not yet, but i'd rather not think about it incase i feel it was a mistake! 9 years of ccd, down the drain!

I just wanted to refute the statement that science and religion are mutually exclusive.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
- Albert Einstein

Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

A little science estranges a man from God. A lot of science brings him back.
- Francis Bacon

I won't chime in on this topic myself, because I don't know most of you well enough to feel comfortable talking about something so personal.

Also, Nick: Those years in CCD are only wasted if you learned nothing. I hope you at least recieved a solid moral foundation from your Catholic upbringing.

I'd also like to commend everyone who has posted in this thread. I'm very impressed with how much everyone is respecting the opinions of others. *This* is where the true test of Gracious Professionalism is passed, not in some silly competition.

I'll leave you with one more quote. It's a good one to remember whenever discussing controversial topics.

The test of courage comes when we are in the minority; the test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.
- Ralph W. Sockman

What i was trying to say was that ever since the beginning, before the Europeans inhabited America, you were either pro-science, or pro-religion. You either believed, or needed concrete evidence before you could believe that there was/is a god. I guess that i'm the type that needs the concrete evidence.

I didn't mean to say that i tuned out my nine years of catholic education!!...what i was saying is that i'm not sure if i believe in what it was that I learned.


With all of that mentioned, i am also one of the people that criticizes God when something goes wrong. And i turned to God when my grandfather died. I'd really like to believe that there are reasons for why things happen. But i know that i will always ask the question "why?" and never fully accept.

the big bang HAD to happen, because before it, there was no time dimension, and therefore for everything possible to happen is inevitable


say there was x probability of the big bang happening (nonzero because there cannot be a zero probability of ANYTHING happening) at any given moment

so it's x/t

but t is zero, so the probability of it happening is infinite or undefined.

and god? never much cared for things that couldn't be proven to me (hell, it took them a while to convince me that working hard in school would, indeed, get me better grades) but i'm not a devout atheist (is that even possible?) or anything that goes around denying it.

i used to, but then i stopped caring :D

you're making it seem like a simple math equation. And if it was that simple why haven't we tried to duplicate it on a much smaller scale??? Or is it just an equations that is made up, trying to look like it's a fact?

There are two things I don't argue about (well almost never, have a few times with FIRST people): religion and politics.

All I will say is that I personally don't believe in any religions, or any gods, or a God. And this isn't an absent minded choice. I've been in catholic school for 11 years. I know religion very well.

I believe that science can explain everything, and if you insist on the concept of a god, to me, a god is the equivalent to the greatest potential of the human race.

-Jill

A few things that I don't get. Maybe someone can explain them to me?

1) Today, the second day of Rosh Hashanah, my Rabbi made a sermon on how Judaism and Christianity, and Islam (only touched on this) were all related, and all "children of Abraham". So then, why so much bloodshed between the three? I mean, siblings don't hate each other that much, do they?

2) Days of rest reflect a purely business motive. Judaism came first, with Sat. being the "day of rest". Christianity came around, changing the day of rest to Sunday. Islam also came around, and it's day of rest is Friday (from what I remember, please correct me if I'm wrong). This shows religion being shaped around the economy, which if you ask me, shows that man is more powerful than God(s), no?

3) Much of Christianity used to deal with the Earth as the center of the universe. It was blasphemy to consider otherwise. Heaven and Hell can't exist as physical planes of existence in this universe right now, because there's that whole thing called outerspace, and Hell can't exist under us, because that'd mean each planet had it's own individual Hell (or something like that).

There's some more stuff I've been thinking about, but I don't want to cause too much of a ruckus :).

Remember, this isn't out to hurt anyone, it's just some questions I have regarding religions, also kind of why I don't exactly believe in everything I hear in Temple. Those three questions by themselves are enough to shake my small amount of faith in religions as a whole, but I'd like to see how some other people view them.

ok
1. Yes the three religions are similar in text, the Koran, the old testiment of the Bible and the, Torah, are all similar. But then again they are all also totally different. (I hope you kno the diff by now) The bloodshed is caused when men bend the word of God to their liking. The Torah originally said "go out and kill people, call it a holy war and you're going straight to heaven," no Muhamad said that to gain followers, and thus he became head of the Islamic nation. Again the pope bendt the words of God to inflict fear into the commonfolk by saying you're going to hell if you're not Catholic. Thus it is by MAN's word that the bloodshed has come about.

2. The day of rest first came into play in the 10 commandments. The Jewish nation beleived that the sabbath day was set aside for God, and God alone. Then along came Jesus and said that the day was set aside for God AND men. But probably the reason for each sabbath being on a differnt date is from calenders. Diff calenders for diff reagions back in the ancient days...

3. Heaven and Hell aren't of this universe, they are on two different planes of exhistance. Just as we are in one, Heaven and hell are in their own also.

hope that helped...

If anyone's ever read up on religion, you'll realize that since the beginning, religion has been its own form of government. Taxes, leaders, wars, corruption...defeat.

You all need to Hear George carlin's views on this

Yes, I believe in a God... I can not tell you that it is male/female, black/white, or any other charecteristics. I am very pious, and hold stong beliefs within my church.

But, this past year I have had a lot to try and figure out. Why do things happen? Why does it happen at a specific instant? Why me, or why you? Throughout the past 13 months, I have become terminaly ill, been in a horrific automobile accident, and found my true love. I have had to deal with such thoughts as why me, and why now? If there is a God, what was the purpose of choosing me? However, through my religion I did find that people do care about me no matter what happens. My church family has been incredible to me over the past months, and I see that as God's way of saying to me that I can overcome anything.

... just a random blurb, from my overstuffed mind ...

Man twisted religion to his own uses, such at Government. Religion by itself has no political stances

I belive in God, but I have no religion.

My thoughts on religion is that man created it as a means of comfort - there's probably some kind of Fruedian term for it. We're a social animal, and it's my belief that the fear of being alone scares us to death. We need something to comfort us, whether it's a loved one, a community, or the belief in a supreme being.

If you look beyond western culture, the only thing constant about religion is that it exists. The Native Americans have their animalistic gods... Hinduism and(?) Buddhism have their cycles of birth and rebirths... Chinese culture has its blend it Confucianism and Daoism.... every culture has or has had its own unique beliefs. One can't help but wonder what is the 'correct' religion, if any. Did Ghandi go to hell because he didn't believe in Jesus? Are we all about to be smitten by lightning bolts hurled from Mount Olympus?

The primary reason I don't believe in religion is because the roots of every major religion can be traced back to the culture and tradition of its origional people. All it takes is a few charismatic leaders to tie it together into formal doctrine. If, say, the Christian God exists, why did he let so many thousands of years go by letting people believe in 'heathen' gods like Ra, Zeus, or Jupiter? You can't possibly tell me that just because he was pissed off at two people for eating some fruit, he let millions of people go to hell for believing something they had no alternative to believe in. The fact of the matter is that society controls what you believe in. If the Christian God is the one true god, how was Joeus Doeius, your average law-abiding Athenian, ever expected to know the truth?

Religion is just a means of identifying oneself as part of a community. It's disgusting what can be done with this power, though...

More people have died in the name of (a) g/God(s) throughout the history of the world than any other reason.

Then there's the whole just-look-up-at-the-sky argument. A while ago, I found this fascinating article about a deep-space photo that summed things up pretty well...
300,000 stars - who knows how many like our own sun? Thousands of faint galaxies - just like our Milky Way. All this in the area of a grain of sand held at arms length. How many grains of sand held at arms length does it take to fill up the entire nighttime sky? It doesn't take much effort to realize that our entire lives - the people we meet, the places we see, the memories we keep - everything we know is not even a blink of the eye in the long run.

I think it's our universal fear that everything we've ever expierienced means nothing that we've created religion as a way to deal with death. Personally, that's the reason why I want to try to change the world. I believe it was in Lord of the Rings when one of the characters was talking to Treebeard... Treebeard said that compared to Ents, Humans live such short lives. Yet what they do in that period of time is so much. I think it's the fear of passing into time, unremembered, that drives so many of us.

This thought just occured to me: Faith is the willingness to believe something which cannot be proven, hence, atheists have faith in the thought that there is no God.

If a religion is based on faith, or if a person has faith in God, then one should acknowledge that there cannot be a way to prove that said religion is correct, or that God exists.


More reading (Please note the following: I didn't write any of the content from these links. I take no responsibility for hurt feelings, insulted intelligences, offended vocabularies, or out-of-style hairdos. I won't respond to flames, either.):

• Your radical ideas about religion as a mechanism of social control have already occurred to others
• I Figured Out Faith
• Boy, I was sure lucky to be born into the one true faith!
• Religion is a crutch for weak people
• Atheism is a crutch for weak people
• An Atheist's Defense of Christianity

So SuperDanman you can look up at the billions of stars n' such in the sky and say that it was created by randomally appearing matter?

And God was always there and his presence was known at the time of the other greek and roman "gods" And science has proven this. From the whole thing about chariots at the bottom of the red sea to large ammounts of sulfer and ash where sodom and gomorrah used to be standing. He was always there. And society doesn't control what you beleive in. There's a thing called choice and you use that power to choose what you want to beleive. If society controled what you beleived in then we'd all be the same, just like communism.

And as i posted above, (which no one obviously reads before they post) People didn't die in the name of religion, they died in the name of the person who used religion to their benifit. Was muhammad just a lowly prophet? No he was the POLITICAL leader of the islamic nation. And most ppl in politics have power and are always wanting more. So Muhammad tossed in "go out and kill people, call it a holy war and you're going straight to heaven" Bam more power, for him. Same thing with the crucades, the pope wants more power, so he calles it a holy war so he isn't blamed with genocide. Men being tempted by power and defiling religion.

But, if religion is supposed to be a unifying force, why does it, directly or indirectly, kill more people than any other reason?

What you are saying, is that religion is a tool to be used for power. That fits with my personal theories on religion, but it doesn't go at all with what you're trying to say, I think.

Religion, from what I can tell, is supposed to bring peace. To paraphrase from some religious book (I have no idea where it came from, and I'm too lazy to go and hunt down my Siddur), "Nations shall not lift up sword against nation, and they shall experience war no more." That is said almost every time I'm at a service at my temple, be Rosh Hashanah, or a Friday night service that my parents ask me to come to. To me, that means that religion, or at least Judaism (I can't say for anything else, I don't really know), was created to bring people together, teach them morals, and attempt to make peace.

Seeing how Christianity and Islam both come from Judaism, I'm going to assume they have the same basic goals, but I can't be certain.

I just don't see how religion can be both a tool used by man, but also the grand unifying thing for the Earth. It just doesn't work out, at least how I see it.

It is supposto be a tool for men to learn about God, but men MISUSE religion. It's like over the counter medicine, use it properly, it helps you out, but you can misuse it and have deadly resluts.

why is it necessary for men to learn about god, if its god that men created?

To better understand what you beleive in.

Going of you logic then
Why does man need to learn about science since science created man? (going of evolution was correct)

I've read this...and all I can say is wow...
Blacknight...you are making this thread controversial.

ChiefDelphi isn't the place for religion, in my view.

I said at the beginning this would be contrivertial, and those who don't want in then don't join. But frankly i c this post as a way to see other ppl's veiwpoints about creation n' such...

I'm sorry, Matt, but perhaps I'm missing the obvious here -- who, exactly, do you feel to be qualified to interpret the word of God? You've said, so far, that the spiritual and political leaders of three of the largest religions in the world have corrupted the word of God in their quest for more power. Yet, somehow, such people are still exalted by their followers. So, then, if you don't believe the Pope is qualified to be an unbiased interpreter of messages from God, who is? You? Do you believe that you don't have your own bias influencing your interpretation of scripture?

God was created (or exists, depending on your perspective) to be an infallible entity. That was a really smart move, really, because the moment something intangible and ethereal becomes omnipotent and infallible, there exists no logic that can defeat it. It is the ultimate justification for the most unimaginable and horrific of actions. It's carte blanche for people to exercise their will -- as you've said.

As far as I can see, you're responsible for a good amount of the posting in this thread -- trying pretty hard at convincing others that they're misguided or wrong. Does this thread satisfy a missionary requirement for a merit badge or something?

I understand the desire to want to to compare your belief system with others. It's natural and healthy for us to reexamine our views of the world periodically so that we don't become complacent in our existence. However, where matters of metaphysics and belief systems are concerned -- where there are no "hard facts" -- it's pretty rude to consistently reply to every disparate viewpoint and explain why it's incorrect. In fact, it's annoying and reflects pretty poorly upon you.

If you're truly interested in learning about other's feelings on this matter, to put it bluntly, shut your trap and listen. If you're interested in reassuring yourself about your belief system by silencing or dismissing others, please, shut your trap.

Have a nice day.

Not when you are analyzing everyone's post...
good-day

Personally i like the idea of this thread. I think it interesting to pose science versus religion in a science based message board.

Aww. But he hasn't done mine, yet! I feel so ignored.

As for the thread, it could have been good. The concept is honest enough. Execution, however, is slightly on the lacking side...

Awww...maybe he wont ignore you soon :p

What you said about the thread is exactly what I'm feeling, but said a lot nicer. heh

Fine i shall shut my trap then, and let all your questions go unanswered.

Oh and there isn't any merit badge that i could get for this, and it would be no use for me anyways I'm already Eagle...

No option for agnostics? :)

There really isn't enough evidence for or against...so I stay neutral. If I had to choose, I'd go atheist, but calling myself agnostic is easier...especially since there are more than a few poeple that have no idea what it means. :)

When I read this, I was concerned partly. From what I've gathered, you've already gone against 3 points of the Scout Law -
Courteous, Kind, and Reverent.
I've found some of your replys flat out rude.
In my opinion, you're not showing the 12th point of the Scout Law very well. I understand you may be trying to influence others with your Religious beliefs, but don't here. The question originally was "Do you believe in God?", but since then it has turned into a shake-down on people's beliefs. Hopefully these posts will help do to continue to do good turns daily in a more constructive way.

/ends Scout references ;)

Does the word debate mean anything to you?

could we possibly get an aim chat going this weekend inspired by the subject of th is post?

This thread isn't about a debate over religion, it's about whether a person believes in God or not.

I believe that religion is strictly personal and that there should be no men who are given power to feed their interpretations of god to large amounts of followers.

As long as your religion does not involve the wholesale sacrifice of human infants, or something along those lines, you should be free to practice it, and, more importantly, you should follow personal beliefs more readily than you follow the words of your nearest pastor/rabbi/sheik/etc.

The Bible is also a bad thing for personal freedom of religion, it leads too many to accept too much without thought. An intelligent person can read the Bible and, for him, it can be a good thing. But too many people take the Bible at face value, especially seeing as how many contradictions exist, especially between the old and new testaments.

Just a few notes and elaborations after reading a couple select posts....

Quote:

Originally posted by Blacknight First off science has never explained where the universe came from. They say that Stephen Hawkings (sp) found the equations that created the earth, and created the theory of randomally appering matter. One question for this, since we have the equation y can't we create our own randomally appearing matter, and if it happened before, y don't we occationally see something just appear out of nowhere. And if you say well the universe was just there, then where did all the dust and derbis come from? Man twisted religion to his own uses, such at Government. Religion by itself has no political stances

Regarding the first paragraph, there's no easy way of saying this: that really makes no sense. I realize certain forum members are sort of talking down to you, but they are, as am I, frustrated with certain things you said which show bias affecting reason, or a lack of research. I think you need to read about the physics side of this debate. I (and most others would) suggest reading A Brief History of Time by the aformentioned Stephen Hawking. It's a very light read and is very basic; it is a good way to start off in terms of physics, and is fun at the same time. Seriously. I love that book, and I've read it three times over a span of 5 years.

Religion has no stances? Sure it does. Christianity for example, created Mosaic law, and is actually pretty liberal in nature I think. By "liberal," I do not mean "left wing" by the way.

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperDanman My thoughts on religion is that man created it as a means of comfort - there's probably some kind of Fruedian term for it. We're a social animal, and it's my belief that the fear of being alone scares us to death. We need something to comfort us, whether it's a loved one, a community, or the belief in a supreme being. I think it's our universal fear that everything we've ever expierienced means nothing that we've created religion as a way to deal with death.

Indeed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank(Aflak) If there was a Big Bang where did the singularity come from? (by which point I mean that we know that the universe has a definate 'starting point.' The logic is that for the Big Bang to happen, all the conditions that caused it to happen would have had to existed . . but if the conditions were not caused by an outside power then they would have always existed, and therefore the big bang would have gone off an infinite amount of time ago . . a paradox. The argument is that god is the uncaused cause. I believe in a god, but I don't believe that god takes an active role in influencing human life, nor do I accept Catholicism ( i was raised Catholic). I belief that any belief/prayer should be personal and not a public ceremony. But thats just me.

Regarding the Big Bang, the way you have to think about it is that because it's a singularity, our perception of the four dimensions are immaterial in that situation. It is not a paradox, because as far as we are concerned, time did not exist. There is also no experiment we can do to determine what happened "before" the Big Bang. By the way, the Vatican (and to my knowledge, other Christian beliefs too) recognizes the Big Bang however it doesn't like research into that which was "before" the Big Bang, with good reason I suppose. Just in case any Creationists want to try to strike it down (which incidentally can't be done at this point), it doesn't really conflict with the Bible very much anyway.

Regarding the views on prayer, I agree; prayer should (IMO) be a personal thing. Don't you think God would be a tad annoyed at hearing the Lord's Prayer every day? That's not praying, that's like doing chores. It's also a good sign of someone who is in their religion due to fear of God or of their peers' dislike of dissent. It's good, I think, that you are coming to your own conclusions as to your beliefs. A lot of people can't. I am supposed to be Christian, but I am agnostic, because my interpretation of everything I've learned makes me see that way. What I think people belonging to any religion should do, is research other peoples' beliefs and science, and then form their own based not on ignorance and refuting of others, but understanding where they're coming from. The argument that faith prohibits research into atheism/Islam/Budhism/whatever is a cop-out, especially since the concept of faith was invented by religion in the first place.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryan_team710 I am raised in a protestant home. and i do Believe in God. I have gone to a christian school all my life. If you look at charlie darwins life at the end of his life he said that his theory could not be right and he did acknowledge that evolution can be real.

This is a classic argument made by those who take Genesis to the letter. One must remember however, that Darwin was about to die when he 'recanted'. He was the first to make such a radical postulation, and lived among Christians. If I made an arguably blasphemous theory like that, I'd be afraid of what's to come too.

I'm not going to try to sway Christians away from Creationism, but I do have to point out that evolution is a theory based on empirical data, and just about everything points to it's existance. I should also point out that the same is not true for Creationism.

Quote:

Originally posted by George1083 I just wanted to refute the statement that science and religion are mutually exclusive. Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. - Albert Einstein The test of courage comes when we are in the minority; the test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority. - Ralph W. Sockman

I like your second quote. Your first one also has to be put into perspective. Einstein spent the latter part of his life trying to refute unification and quantum mechanics because of his belief in determinism and that God almost 'prearranged' everything.


/me catches breath

Okay.

Would you look on me any different if i said i belived in a god. Would you look on me any different if i said i did not belive in a god. My question is what does it matter who belives what, why do people come up and ask me what religion i am, why should that have any barring on how i am as a person, i know some religious people who would run over an old person in the street just to get to a dime someone dropped, and i know some athesists that wouldn't hurt a fly (and the other way around). Life is better not knowing ways to seperate yourself from your peers, instead you should look in them to find their true character not the one defined by a sterotypical member of their "class".

this is exactly why I think religion should be private. Well, its some more good reasons, anyway. BTW, as far as I'm concerned, atheism is a religion . . in my sense of the word.

For the most part, this has been a thoughtful and respectful thread. There are many good posts by good people.

I have two observations:

1. It makes me feel like a proud father to see many of you mature over the years. I see people respecting other's opinions (for the most part), even though they disagree with them. I see many people in this thread who would've flamed each other a year ago.

Don't get me wrong... healthy debate is good. But when you start attacking someone else's personal beliefs, that is when people get defensive and they tell you to stop.

2. I consider the people who post on the CD Forums to be fairly smart people. I would assume that almost all of you have above average intelligence. With this said, it amazes me that all of these smart people have such different beliefs when it comes to religion and politics. Within this crowd of fairly smart people, there are atheists, very religious people, die-hard Democrats, and right-wing Republicans. The neat thing is that, for the most part, we all get along fairly well.

For example... I just called my friend Bill Gold for a simple favor. Bill is a great guy. I've known him for about 3 years. We both know that we differ on some controversial issues, but we still consider each other friends. I can call him for a favor and he can do the same with me. I value our friendship. It's OK that we disagree on some issues. We still respect each other even though we disagree. It's OK. It really is. People are going to disagree... as long as the respect is there.

So, debate. Voice your opinion. But... as you are proving your intelligence, be respectful. Hey... maybe I have something there. Maybe this "Respectful Intelligence" is a derivative of "Gracious Professionalism". Hmmm.

Be good,
Andy B.

atheism is a religion...you believe in something just like other religions...

It has to be fairly high. I rember there was a recent poll that said that 70 percent of people did not want refrences of god removed from the public.
Actually science belives now that parallel universes probably exists due to the laws of probability.
I personally belive a higher enitity does exisist. I just do not know what.

Coincidentally, that means that there actually is a "heaven" and a "hell" for each religion somewhere out there, because there is a small, but non-zero probability of a world fitting any description existing.

Okay, I'm aware that this is kind of nitpicky, but it bothered me.

Athiesm is not a belief in something. It is the lack of belief in something (God).

I suppose by definition four that one could claim athiesm to be a religion, but this would only be true when someone actively does not believe in God, which is usually not the case. Disbelief in something is fairly passive activity, wouldn't you say?

Well, atheism is too a broad belief to be called a religion. It isn't really a religion, because there are recognized religions that branch off from it. Atheism simply means a lack of theism, so calling it a religion isn't really accurate, no?

The argument of "atheism as a religion" reminds me very much of two things: the first is null is not zero, and the second is the concept of mu (not the coefficient of friction or the Greek letter).

Well, everyone else has been so good to share, so I may as well add in my little bit. I've been born and raised Catholic, and I definately believe in God. He has helped me get through things that I never thought possible. I've seen people that were said to have less than 10% chance of survival after car accidents completely cured following prayer masses, and I believe. I don't like how in my religion, you just recite a prayer, because to me, reciting words week after week really doesn't mean anything. I guess that I feel God spiritually, just not in the way that my faith does.

Atheism is no more a religion than, say, monotheism.

You should have included a "Not Sure" for the agnostics. There are more of them then you may realize. Unfortunately, there are probably more people who don't know what an agnostic is than there are people who declare themselves agnostic.

This thread is very interesting. It reminds me of the "Philosophy of Religion" class took last semester. The whole class was arguments for and against the existence of God so I've been comparing the arguments on this thread to ones I learned. On the first day of class the prof took an anonymous poll of everyone's belief. Everyone had to classify themselves as "Theist", "Atheist" or "Agnostic" and "Hostile" (I am right and you are so very wrong) or "Friendly" (I am very open-minded about the whole thing). Then he took the same poll after the Final. Here are the results:

BEFORE:
Theist: 27 Friendly, 3 Hostile
Agnostic: 10 Friendly, 2 Hostile
Atheist: 2 Friendly, 1 Hostile

AFTER:
Theist: 28 Friendly, 4 Hostile
Agnostic: 6 Friendly, 2 Hostile
Atheist: 6 Friendly, 0 Hostile

(Note: 1 more person was polled in the After poll)
Interpret that data how you will. I am one of those Friendly Agnostics that stuck around the camp (Open-mindedness is a value I try to live by). Here are a few quotes:

"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means. "
Clarence Darrow (Scopes trial, Dayton, Tennessee, July 13, 1925)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"Hostile Agnostic. I don't know and neither do you"
Bumper Sticker

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

If anyone wants to learn about well established philsophical agruements about God, just wants to debate this stuff, or wonders what an agnostic is, feel free to AIM me at "The Lucas 365"

wow, interesting thread!

some thoughts to ponder:

Science vs religion: Science and religion dont mix for a very simple reason. Science deals with things that are controllable, predictable and repeatable. Try to apply the rules of science to humans and see if you can draw any conclusions to prove anything. People respond to stimuli in different and completely unpredictable ways. Extend that out to God, and there is no experiment you can conduct to prove or disprove anything concerning God or religon, because you cannot put God into your laboratory condtions, you cant control God, and God would be infinitely beyond our ability to comprehend, so how could we predict what God would do in any given situation (in response to any test conditions we come up with)?

religon and conflict. Another problem here. Even if you take the existance of God as a given, now you have an even bigger problem: defining Gods nature. There are as many possible concepts of what you think God is (what God does, how God interacts with man, Gods character...) as there are people on the earth. The conflicts that arise from religion always stem from disagreement over what we think God wants us to do.

God and you. When I was taking philosophy and logic courses in college I gave religion a lot of thought, trying to figure out if it was possible to determine if God is real or not. I spent several days contemplating what sign God could give me (or anyone) to indicate that He is there, that He is real. I came to the conclusion that the only perfect sign (one that could not be a coincidence) would be if God came to you personally in some way, and interacted with you on a personal level, revealed Himself.

and in the end, isnt that what its really all about? if God is not interested in interacting with you on a personal level, then it doesnt really matter if God exists or not, right? If you never have any personal interaction with God, then what difference does it make if God exists or not?

Thats why these discussions always come down to the point where we must all concede that our religious beliefs are a personal matter. If God has revealed Himself to me, there is nothing I can say or do to convince anyone esle of that. God has to deal with each of us one by one.

For the record, millions of people state they do have such a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, and I am one of them.

all i have too say is that something cannot come from nothing so there must have been a god to create every thing and there must be a god after the great season 231 had last year and all the help ive had starting a rookie tean\m this year!!!!!

Im going to throw my two cents in here, mostly because no one has really said what i have to say.

I dont follow any of the Judo-Christian religions, im solitary eclectic Wiccan. I do invact believe in God (God with a big "G" generally refering to Jahova). But reading the Bible ive found that his rules and edicts are too contradicting for me to justify following them, and when it comes right down to it, i dont like Jahova. I wont go into why, because it would offend alot of people and thats not what im here for.

Im a very logical, scientific person, so the contradictory statements of the Bible doenst sit well with me. Most people think it is very strange that a scientist like me believes in something like magick. But i find magick is a very good blend of science and religion; its a good go between if you look at it the right way. Magick requires believe in something that cannot be tested or usually seen, like religion, but it is brought about by strict, logical rules and methods like science.

Personally i favor the egyptian pantheon (Isis being my favorite) over other gods and goddesses, but thats not saying i dont recognize them. I feel that the divinity that permiates all things, the All, Gaia, ect. whatever you want to call it, is formless, incomprehensable and unknowable. But we as humans have given the All form and shape, substance and voice, breath and life.

All gods and goddesses are the right god and goddess, as long as you arnt harming yourself or others in thier names. Isis, Jahova, the God and Goddess, Thor, Pan, Zues, Bast, or no religion at all, they are all equally valid. Many paths lead to the same clearing in the forest.

I think many people forget the most important point of any good religion, and the Wiccan Rede sums it up pretty well. "And it harme none, do as ye will." I think we forget that all to often.

Im not here to preach anything, and if it seems like i am, or if im offending you, i apologize. I am just voiceing my views on the subject. If by some chance one of you would like to learn more about Wicca or other pagan beliefs, i would be happy to help you find that information. You can email me at tarsen@goldenwyvern.org or AIM be at ChibiTarsen.

Thank you for listening.

Tarsen,

I agree with your post on a couple things. There are forms of religion that do have a scientific aspect to them, you experiment with it and see what happens. I was really into the new age movement about 17 years ago.

One thing about this though, you have to be willing to accept any concequences if the experiment produces results you didnt expect.

I also understand what you said about the bible containing contradictions. There are many places where it seems to be saying one thing, then later it says the opposite. Its been my experince that if you study these things you have to take a step back to understand what is really going on there.

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to sit down and right up the sum of my religious experiences. I have a copy of it in PDF format on my aol account. If anyone wants to read it, its over 50 pages long. If nothing else, it is interesting what we learn along the way when we really put ourselves into a serious spiritual search.

http://members.aol.com/wittlief/testimony.htm

agreed, magick can be dangerous. but luckily i dont have delustions of great power and the spells i weave are tiny things ment to make my life easier and healing spells. im not foolish enough to think i can control dark forces or anything.

Cool, my mom is part wiccan. Ive looked into it, it was fun and all just to explore, but it wasn't for me. :)

"there are no absolutes" ~ are u absolutely sure?
 

God existst! how can u say that He doesnt? seriously do u think that everything just magicaly created itself and its own rules?
to save time for arguing, just PM me is u want to contradict me!
one love, one G od, one way!

I haven't read this whole thread, forgive me if there's repetition.

Personally I have never fully adopted any one faith. I use the label agnostic. Agnostic seems to have gray area, but basically what it means in my case is that I have no convictions. I don't believe there is a God and I don't believe there is not a God (hence, I'm not atheist). The only real point I want to make for others to think about is this: it is true that we cannot absolutely prove the existence of God. It is a belief. However, to say that He does not exist is equally unscientific as saying He does exist. We have cannot absolutely prove that He does not exist.

Please don't take my view to be that all scientists should be agnostic. I use 'scientific' only in the root meaning that science means knowledge. I'm saying we lack the real knowledge to justity saying He doesn't exist, so to be athiest on the basis that we don't have evidence for His existence is a contradiction in my mind. I'm not saying atheists are wrong. I'm justing saying that they also believe in something, as was pointed out near the beginning of the thread.

As always, I mean no offense and I respect others' beliefs or lack there of.

not sure I understand this

if you mean 'prove the existance of' like I can prove the existance of my car, or my son

then I dont understand your assertion. If you accept it as true, then in the biblical account, it was proven to Moses that God exists, and to the disciples of Jesus

and to anyone else who has experienced a personal interaction with God - Gods existance has been proven to them

or do you simply mean, those people cant prove it to anyone else, without Gods cooperation?

Good point. I mean basically the last thing you said. I'm saying that God's existence is something unproven to most people, hence we can have this discussion. If we all knew for sure that he existed, this thread would serve little purpose, right? So take my words lightly - His existence can be proven, however I have no proof, as many do not.

Does that clear up what I mean?

thats true. If this thread was titled "does the moon exist?" there wouldnt be 6 pages of discussion :c)

hey sorry guys i havent posted in this thread for awhile, I have been trying to catch up and if i am repetive...forgive me.

On the point of What God looks like:
He is a spirit, He came down to earth in a earthly form to die for are sins.

Big Bang Theory;
So if we start at x how does the big bang come along. You have to have somethign to start something. Its cause and effect, The big bang could not start from nothign you have to have a cause to get a effect (i.e. big bang)

God is the ultimate being he brought us hear and one day he will come back to take his chosen home. If you know anything about the christian faith there are Calvinist (coming down from John Calvin ) and there is Arminist (sorry spelling sucks). Calvinist believe that Before the begining of time that God pre-destined people that will be save and people that wont . Arminist beleive that you can choose to believe in God or not. For me personally i am a Calvinist. God said that he knows everythign about us, how many hairs on our head, when we will die. I also believe thatwhen we are destined to die we will no matter were we are. I coule be sitting in a airplane on the crapper anywhere.

big bang theory
 

God spoke, and BANG!!!:yikes: it appeared

i havent voted because i dont really know what i think and its one of those areas in my life where im still undecided ... but going through some old emails, i found this and thought that it related to this topic:

Finally, The Truth on National TV.

Billy Graham's daughter was being interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?"(regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe that God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman that He is, I believe that He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?" (In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.)

* Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body was found recently) complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in school...the Bible that says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK.

* Then, Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide) And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we said OK.

* Then, someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (There's a big difference between disciplining and beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.) And we said, OK.

* Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, OK.

* Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, OK.

* Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

* And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said, OK.

* And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to their free speech.

* And then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

* Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

* Dear God,
Why didn't you save the little girl killed in her classroom?"
Sincerely, Concerned Student...
AND THE REPLY
Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely, God.

* Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
* Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
* Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says.
* Funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow Satan who, by the way, also "believes" in God.
* Funny how we are quick to judge but not to be judged.
* Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
* Funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through cyberspace,but the public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
* Funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be an invisible Christian the rest of the week.
* Are you laughing?
* Funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it to them.
* Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me than what God thinks of me.
* Are you thinking? Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it....no one will know that you did.
* But, if you discard this thought process, then don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!

ill have to more or less agree, i have little respect for people who try to push blame off on "God" or some other metaphysical being for something they did, or did not do, and the consequences of such. we have free will, and our decisions are ours to make. thus the responsibility lays on us to do right, not "God".

Arrg, this is the most common argument used against the Big Bang theory.

According to your beliefs, God is infinite - He transcends time. This means that you believe the property of being infinite exists. Yet, in your argument, you disprove the Big Bang by stating that something had to create it. In layman's terms, you're saying that the Big Bang can't be real because something had to create it - matter/energy/whatever is not infinite. At the same time, however, you admit that it is possible for something (God) to be infinite. Which is it? Is it possible for something to have to property of being infinite, or is it not possible for something to have the property of being infinite?



Alright, this post really upset me. Not only is it terribly biased, but it is full of half-truths and it outright insults people who are not Christian by forcing Christian values into their faces.

I'm not going to go over every point the post raises, but I will flame the most insulting ones.

Guess what? Every other major belief system throughout history has said the same exact thing!! Has that ever stopped people from killing? NO! The reason the Bible has no place in our schools is because contrary to the beliefs of some ultra-conservatives in this country, not everyone is Christian! Think of it in these terms: would you be offended if every day I shoved my Athiestic beliefs into your face? Of course you would! For the same reason, in our public schools, we do not shove Christian beliefs into the faces of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Daoists, Native Americans, etc.

Listen to how ridiculous this argument is. The author attributes this entire practice to one particular person whos son tilts the argument into the author's favor. SOCIETY DECIDED THIS, NOT ONE PERSON WHOSE CIRCUMSTANCES COINCIDENTALLY REINFORCE YOUR ARGUMENT!

What exactly is the author talking about here? If he isn't talking about beating, smacking, humilating, kicking, etc., exactly what kind of discipline IS he talking about? As far as I know, detention, suspensions, and expulsions are still used everywhere....

I'm not going into the abortion debate, but notice how this point is a blatant ad hominem argument - the way it is phrased makes it seem like "our [teenage] daughters" are the only ones getting abortions.

Funny... as I recall, there have only been around 20 or 30 kids at most who have killed strangers, classmates, and themselves with no conscience... now, exactly how many of "our children" are there actually? A few hundred million? 20 out of a billion is not a big percentage at all. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Columbine was completely insignificant. I'm saying the way this argument is phrased makes it sound like the great corruption of society is forcing ALL of "our children" to be the Trenchcoat Mafia, which if was the case, you'd probably be dead by now.


Again, what really upset me about this quote is it is completely biased and phrased in half-truths (actually, more like quarter-truths or 20/1,000,000 truths). It is violently Christian. It makes it sound as if the Bible has held the answers to every single problem in society and the reason problems exist is because we rejected the Bible. It completely insults every other set of beliefs. In short, keep this trash out of here. If you want to have a discussion, please use intelligent arguments NOT filled with decieving half-truths.

I have been hestitating for awhile to put my own opinion about religion in this thread. Religion has been the cause of most of my family's problems. My mother is a Christian Wiccan (WHich i think i have posted once already), my sister and father are full-throttle christians, my brother is morman, and I dont believe in relgion. Dont get me wrong, i believe in a higher power, never doubted that there was one. Religion was not something i want to dedicate my life to. Im not willing to have people to tell me whether or not im going to hell because i made a mistake. Nor do i want to be a part of something that tottally shuts out anything that does not believe in what they believe in.
My family was torn apart by relgion. My sister and mother haven;t talked in about five years all because my sister doesnt understand wut my mom believes in, instead she chose fear and didn;t bother looking into it. (Knowledge really is power) And my father disaproves of my brothers choice of belief. I realize that a lot of people out there only have their religion, it is the only thing getting them through this thing called life........

.......I just wish people wouldn't try to force their beliefs upon other people and they would get rid of the thinking that their way is the only way to go.

I think there is. If not - than i'm just playin' it safe! :D

Good point. (If certain people are to be believed) Those who don't believe in God will go to hell if there really is one, but just die if they're right. However, those who believe go to heaven if they're right, and if there really isn't a god, they just die.

I'll take my chances, but it doesn't hurt to keep that in mind.

Seems rather unfair to cultures who were never exposed to the concept of God.

Not only unfair, but also remember that not everyone who believes in God believes that they will go to hell if they don't believe in him. It may be written in different scriptures, however not everyone follows those. So is it possible that someone could not believe in God and have it turn out that there is one and he/she doesn't go to hell?

spanking. When I was in 2nd grade (public school in buffalo, NY) one boy in my class threw a snowball and hit a girl in the eye. She told the teacher, the student was made to stand in front of the class, and the teacher paddled his behind with the 'board of education'. Spanking was always reserved for those situations where a student physically hurt or attacked another person. We knew full well that if we 'laid hands' on someone else, that a teacher or the principle WOULD lay hands on us. This form of discipline was very effective, both as a deterrent, and as punishment.

you are talking about high profile, multiple killings that happened inside the school buildings - The US has [I believe] the highest percentage of its own population in prison - our prison system is overwhelmed - Most of those people in prison were brought up in our public education system.

I dont know the exact number, but somewhere around 100 people are murdered in the US every day.

this idea that religion is about what happens to you when you die is misleading. If there is a God, then why would He only be interested in you after you die?

Religion is about your personal relationship with God, now - here - today

if you dont want God to be a part of your life now, then He wont be present with you after this life is over either (that would be hell)

and if you DO want God to be personally involved with your life here and now, He will continue that relationship after this physical life is over.

well heres the Bible's view on that all

say ur driving down a road and u happen to be going over the speed limit, right? well lets just say that you didnt know what the speed limit was. does that mean that u are exempt from the law? by no means! it is accessible to anyone to know. the same goes with God and the Law

Actually, if the speed limit is not clearly posted, they can't say you were exceeding the posted limit. Can they?

George

I think the analogy that was being made is we all are born with a conscience, with a sense of right and wrong

and Im not aware of any culture or group of people who do not have some concept of God.

It seems to be a part of our human nature to think, feel, or otherwise know that something greater than ourselves exists.

Athiests, maybe?

Where can I collect my prize?

no I dont mean individuals, I mean a culture, for example, if the native americans had no concept of God, or the people on Hawaii or tahiti, something along those lines

and athiesm isn't a cult, a cult must have some spiritual purpose and athiesm just doesn't have it.

Perhaps you mean culture, rather than cult?

heres my comments on the whole right and wrong issue on this thread

u believe in one thing as morally incorrect, and ur friend another. so whos right? where are u to draw ur morals and laws at without "violating" another person's right? i mean one person could entirely think that killing people is right, but you dont. so whos to say he's right? its all a matter of opinion.
well thats where God comes in! He, being perfect and, well, God, can set all the rules. they unite us where our petty opinions are miniscule in comparison to God. Just look! He created everything! You would think He would know best.
and to all of you that think that there are no absolutes and no absolute rules, are u absolutely sure?