I've tried to keep my mouth shut and stay out of this. It has been tough, but now I have to break my silence.

Honestly people, what are you going to accomplish from complaining and moaning on this board? Here's your answer, nothing but trouble. These new rules were made because many of you complained about the old rules, so FIRST did their very best and listened to you people. They changed them. But no...still doesn't make you happy. Instead of wasting your time moaning and groaning in this thread or any other thread about what you think should be done, go to the team forums in the summer time. Thats why they created them. If you can't go find someone who is going to make your point for you. I've seen too many complaints and not much to justify them. If you have a complaint, save it for the forums and try to come up with what you think would be a good replacement. The people on the FIRST board work their butts off to try to make you happy and all of this is just a sign of disrespect to all the hard work they do. It's the rules, they are going to stay for this year. Deal with it.

A very disappointed D.J.

I'm sorry I have to get negitive about this, but as I read through and see the different methods of defense to this decision, I see no other way.

Thank you to people like Jason Morella for clearing things up a bit, and thanks to people like D.J. who post as such to get us all back into our right minds.

When's the last time you called up FIRST headquarters just to say thanks? Or saw a volunteer at a regional and said, 'Hey, you're doing a really great job here. Thank you for everything you're doing in your spare time.'

Sadly, not enough people do that.

I think D.J.'s post (before the slams and the negative comments come in) was similar to my earlier post.

Just please remember when posting that there's a group of people trying really hard to do what's best. As was pointed out to me (and I really do appreciate it) criticism is the way to improve on the system, but please don't take it to extremes.

Criticism and flat out complaining are two different things. Criticism is good right now: let's work things out and find a better way. Complaining is not only getting us nowhere, but making everyone seem like the mentality is "This system sucks, and here's why."

It all comes down to this: things are really changing. It's just how we, as a community, handle this change constructively and how we make FIRST a better place.

I know this is a little bit off topic, but i wanted to say it.

When Dean came down to Indy last month for the EIC/EMCW Expo, I asked him if he could sign a blown up picture that I have on my bedroom wall from the 2001 Nationals when we won the Delphi Driving Technology award. Dean delightfully signed it and he said, "thank you". I stood there for a few seconds, shocked. I thought to myself that I should be the one thanking Dean for all he has done instead of him thanking me. I did then thank Dean then he went off to talk with some of the students from 461.


Most people arent going to realize the impact of FIRST until they graduate from HS and move on. I am just now beginning to see all the greatness. Thanks to everyone who has helped me. :]

WOW ... RELAX DJ ... What set you off?

I actually haven't seen too much complaining the past few posts. But how about this for a suggestion ...

I know Indiana teams have been talking about working to reduce the outrageous cost of the Regional competitions - maybe modeled after the current pre/post season events run by various teams. I don't personally have much experience here, but I do know that the past few IRI events showcased some top notch competition with some of the best teams in the country attending - at MUCH LESS than 20% of the cost of a FIRST regional. I am sure many of the other events are similar. I have had many discussions with others regarding the enormous budgets required to sustain a viable team. A "reorganization" of sorts could help solve multiple problems at once.

How about establishing three or four divisions and making the divisional competitions the big glitzy "bling-bling" of FIRST while toning down the regional events significantly (more Divisions could be added as FIRST grows). MUCH less money would be required by individual teams to enter these "scaled down" regionals - then all teams would have to "win" their way to the Divisional "playoffs" which then leads to the National event. The criteria for advancement would be determined by FIRST according to whatever they wanted to emphasize about the program (could be pure robot competition, inspiration, design, etc ... , or a mix - this is a separate debate). If FIRST is not spending so much money on 23+ HUGE GLITZY regional competitions they could even subsidize the Divisional and National costs to ease the burden on teams that win their way there. What better way to increase the participation in FIRST?

The problem with this type of system goes back to the common misconception that the 4K you pay as registration for a regional goes toward the expenses of that regional. In reality, only a very small portion of it does. In reality, the majority of the registration fees cover things such as:
-The salary of those who are employed by FIRST
-Travel costs of sending FIRST representation to the various events
-Some of the bills associated with their office
-Paying the drayage costs that FIRST covers for each team
-Paying the Meeting Co, etc. for handling the event logistics
-etc, etc...

The regional events are for the largest part funded by local sponsorship(those companies you see on the "200X FIRST _______ Regional Sponsors" banner.) As with any major corporation, these sponsors have a definite greater interest in funding _local_ events rather than an event held further away. So if a scaled down regional structure was used, it would not save FIRST any real money, but rather only cause the local committee for each regional to ask their sponsor(s) for a smaller check...

Are you saying this stuff costs over $200,000 PER EVENT??

SOMEBODY besides me is getting FAT!

Don't forget the kit of parts. While a lot of the materials are donated, there are also many that aren't. Notice how this year FIRST cut out the battery charger, compressor, etc. to cut costs so the fee wouldn't have to increase.

As much as I like the idea of having regionals like off seasons, its just not possible to get the fee that low with all the other costs.

I think that the largest cost of a regional is the event location itself. Not all regionals have this donated. It's expensive if you have to pay the going rate (or even a reduced rate) for a place that can fit 2000 people and 40 robots. And that cost isn't likely to change.

And, ask the people at the LI regional how hard it is to play the game with out a big display screen.

FIRST is a non-profit organization, funded primarilly by corporate donations

and yes, you set up a regional with 40 teams, and the year long expense it takes to organize it, supply the teams with what they need, hold the event, then goto the next one, cost well over $200,000.

I don't think, under any circumstances, every team that wants to go to nationals will be able to go. But FIRST should be working on expanding the numbers rather than finding new ways to limit teams' attendance to nationals.

I think what we need is a compromise, try to allow more teams to come but don't try to accompany them all. Besides people, you haven't given the system a chance, you don't know what FIRST has up their sleeves, I mean who saw those bins coming eh? I'm a programmer, not just for the robot, so I'm used to putting out something totally new and field testing it before making more changes. They're only human, give them a shot at this. Until it goes through a season and we see how it reacts, can we really criticize it?

Has anybody figured this out yet?

Don't know if anyone has posted this yet but FIRST updated their site and it is now much clearer.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/cmp_elig.htm

Once again, we have spoken and FIRST has listened. I think the new system will work fine...for now.

<edit>
Ideally this means a team can get a "free ride" to the CE every 2 to 3 years.
</edit>

If we get off with paying only $200K, we're getting off lucky.

With the new post by FIRST those of us who were 1st year teams last year are officially screwed.

We have been put in the same category as the teams that went to Nationals last year...

"Tier 1 Last attended Championship in 2003, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2003"

Therefore the statement that

"These slots will be based on the number of years since a team last attended the Championship. " is false.

Teams attending last year (hence 0 years since last attending) and Rookie teams from 2003 who DID NOT go to Nationals.. (1 years since last attending) are treated exactly the same...

This goes for those of us who were even numbered last year and couldn't have gone if we wanted to...


sarcasm (ON)
Was last year's crop of rookies that bad???
sarcasm (OFF)