2004 Championship Eligibility Criteria!!!
 

as posted on FIRST: Championship Eligibility

"2004 Championship Eligibility


Preamble
The Championship Eligibility Process is being updated to better serve the teams participating in the program, and better support the core values of FIRST. The system used for the last two years, although appropriate for that period, could not provide a long term solution that would keep up with growth in the number of teams and Regionals. We were rapidly converging on a situation in which most of the Championship eligibility would be determined in the prior year or at the Regionals and a very large number of teams would be pooled to compete for a very small number of remaining slots. We think the new system will help rationalize the process. Its major features are


-Merit Based qualifying is focused on FIRST core values.
-Outstanding team performance or outstanding robot performance is the ticket. For a rookie team, a balanced combination is the way to qualify.
-Teams' performance in the last season is deemphasized. Last year's Chairman's Award Winners and last year's Champions are, however, still qualified.
-The pool of slots that remain will be allocated with preference to those who have waited longest to attend a Championship.
-In this transition year, qualifications earned by points last year will be honored.

Championship Eligibility Process
FIRST would like to thank all teams for their patience while we evaluated the Championship eligibility criteria for 2004. We worked to create a system that was fair to all teams while rewarding excellence and maintaining the high quality of the Championship. While transitioning to an improved qualifying system, some of the changes are effective for the 2004 season and a few additional changes will be implemented after this season for 2005 and beyond. We look forward to continual input at the forums to help ensure the eligibility criteria address the primary concerns of all teams. As in the prior system there are three ways to qualify.

1. Prequalifying Teams (same as 2003):

-All prior Championship Chairman's Award winners
-Original and sustaining teams from 1992
-2003 Championship "Stack Attack" winners
-2003 Point qualifiers based on the previous 5 point or more system
Note: The existing Point System will be discontinued after the 2004 season.

2. Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season:

-Regional Chairman's Award winners (1 per Regional)
-Regional Engineering Inspiration Award winners (1 per Regional)
-Regional Rookie All-Star Award winners (1 per Regional)
-Regional Champions (3 per Regional)

3. Open Registration in the Fall:

For 2004 and beyond, a select number of Championship spots each year will be available for open registration. These slots will be based on the number of years since a team last attended the Championship. All teams will be classified in a Tier (ie. Tier 6 equals six years since attending a Championship or last attended in 1998; Tier 2 equals two years since attending or attended in 2002). If the number of teams in a tier is greater than the number of available slots, FIRST will use a lottery system for teams within each tier to determine eligibility for the remaining open slots. The final determination will be first come/first serve until all available openings are filled. A wait list will be maintained for any openings that become available after the close of registration. Typically 10 to 15 openings occur during the Competition season.

Teams can access the year they last attended the Championship in the Team Information and Management System used for registration. Teams that are qualified to register will have access to Championship registration starting noon Eastern time on October 22, 2003. The year each team last attended the Championship is part of TIMS and your team should verify that information prior to the opening of Championship registration.

This coming year FIRST will change the rookie awards to include a Rookie Inspiration Award for outstanding effort as a FIRST team in community outreach and recruiting students to engineering, a Highest Rookie Seed Award and the Rookie All-Star Award which recognizes overall excellence and success in building a quality robot and a sustainable team of Chairman's Award caliber. This last award will qualify rookies to attend the Championship. As announced on September 26th, rookies will not be eligible for the Chairman's Award since that award recognizes sustained excellence over several years. Rookies are, however, encouraged to develop a Chairman's Award submission which will be used as a criteria to judge the Rookie All-Star Award. This submission will document where your team started its FIRST journey and provide background for documenting the results of your team's efforts. Teams applying for NASA grants should be aware that a copy of this submission must be provided to NASA as part of the grant.

We hope this system encourages all teams to take advantage of the opportunity to attend the Championship at some point in the future. Additional information on the Point System and the Tiered System is available below.

Bob Hammond
Director, Robotics Competition



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Point Qualification System
Teams may qualify through performance during the prior year (2003) based on the points earned. Five (5) points are required to register.


a. Championship Event winner 3 points
b. Championship Divisional winner 3 points
c. Regional Event winner 3 points

d. Regional Chairman's Award winner 3 points
e. Championship Event finalist 2 points
f. Championship Divisional finalist 2 points
g. Regional Event finalist 2 points
h. FIRST Judged Award winner at Regional or Championship 2 points


Tiered System
Tier 1 last attended Championship in 2003
Tier 2 last attended Championship in 2002
Tier 3 last attended Championship in 2001
Tier 4 last attended Championship in 2000
Tier 5 last attended Championship in 1999
Tier 6 last attended Championship in 1998 or earlier "

~Mike

What tier are you if your team has never attended the Championship? We are a fourth year team and have never been.

i will agree with the above reply, except that if you were a 4th year team, they may judge whether or not you COULD have gone (obviously you could have due to the even/odd system of years past). my question is, what about the even numbered rookie teams from last year? we never even got a "free" chance to goto nat's...

or maybe the system just doesn't make sense to me?

i'm really glad that they implemented something like this...i went to nat's with 442 two years ago and it was packed! i hope this thins things out a bit! :)

Wow. I really like this solution. It makes a lot of sense. However, I feel shot down. All us even teams (my former 1020 and my current 246 for instance) had the conviction that they would have a free ride to the big event, like Jeremy pointed out. I can't help but feel left out, but at least I know that we'll get there in a few years if we don't qualify somehow else.

I can't help but wonder though... Is this a real long term solution? This year's rookie teams will flood in and when they reach the top tier, along with other teams that haven't been in a long time, there will be too many teams and not enough spots for them. Of course, they can just hold them off and have a small group of left out 7th or 8th tier teams that will get peference the next year. However, that fills up a few more spaces making an echo in the system, causing a 9th and 10th and so on. I like this idea, don't get me wrong. But I can't help worrying about the road ahead. Will we be on CD in a 4 or 5 years creating a swarm of discussion about how the system needs to be revised again?

As for the teams that haven't been yet, I'd assume that they just count up years of participation, right? Makes sense to me, but we'll have to have them clarify this for us.

It reads as the last time you attended. It appears that if you have never been, you are Tier 6.

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I feel update #1 comming soon.

That would be interesting. That would mean then that all rookies get preference? If that's true, I'm amazed and unsure if I'm happy or upset.

BTW, did anyone notice that we've got info about the new game already?

"-Regional Champions (3 per Regional)"

That means we've got an alliance 2x2 game again. I suppose it could be 2x2x2, but like others argued, it's not likely because of the field and such.

I hope thats the case. Our team was Rookie All Star las t year but only managed to get 4 points. If we are only in Tier 2 it might be forever before we get to Nats.. (Yeah I know we could just win and that wouldnt be a problem.)

It would make sense to me that if Rookie All Star is emphasized this coming year it should be made 3 points instead of 2. Sigh.

<edit>
Overall, however, I think that this will be a good system in the long run. Thanks to FIRST for all the time and effort they put in to coming up with the plan.
</edit>

What do you think? Is it right that teams that can attend more than 1 regional have a much better chance of attending Championships.

I had thought of this before but hadn't really looked into it. We may have uncovered something here. Perhaps this year's game will have significantly more autonomous play. C'mon, the new faster more capable, more program space controller, no edu OI system provided. Hrrm, looks suspicious to me.

Perhaps the scoring is not as dependent on driver control, that's why they didn't give any. Hey come to think of it, there are no joysticks being provided either. There mus be more to this than just cutting costs.

OK, so if any team that has never gone to a championship is always the highest tier, how could this new system possibly work??
If FIRST grows as they want it to:
1) it won't be long before there are over a thousand teams that have never gone and are all fighting for less than 50 spots
2) the number of regionals will continue to go up and if they take 6 teams from each regional, there will not be many spots left for the tiered teams anyway!

Raul

Rookie Teams
 

As far as i know, there will only be 26 rookie teams eligible for the Championship Event this year. These 26 teams will be the Rookie-All Stars.

If you are a Rookie team, you at basically at Tier 0.

Basically you don't get a head of the line pass for being a rookie, when you become a rookie you get to stand at the end of the line, and your year counter starts.

It's also good to keep in perspective, just because FIRST is growing doesn't mean every team can afford or want to goto the championship.

With more regional competitions, it may be of more value to a team to do 2 regionals instead of 1 regional and the championship.

Keep in mind that the championship registration did not fill out immediately last year even though hundreds of odd teams qualified.

Well at least we get a hint that the game will still be 2v2 w/ 3 on an alliance :p

I think thats what they think you will think, therefor you are thinking what they want you to think.


Wetzel
~~~~~
I think.

Man... that really would have been nice to have had in place last year. For the reasons skyman has stated....

/me confused
 

Ok, am i the only one a little confused by the "merit based qualifying"?

"Teams that are qualified to register will have access to Championship registration starting noon Eastern time on October 22, 2003" Now does that mean teams that qualify under the "merit based system" qualify by the previous seasons performance?

although it says "Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season", how can u qualify from the 2004 season if registration closes before the season even starts

Could someone please clarify this part of the eligibility requirements for me?:confused:

Great Job!
 

I think FIRST has done an EXCELLENT job with the new system.

I didn't think it would be possible, but they managed to come up with a solution that fulfills all the "meta-criteria" discussed by teams.

They spelled it right out for us at the beggining of Bob's message.

The main criteria they used were the same as OUR criteria that we communicated to them. We want the championship to be as competitive as possible, while still allowing for *everyone* to get a chance to go eventually.

Given the rate FIRST is growing, and restrictions on the size of The Championship, I think the tiered system is about as fair as they could get. I'm also a big fan of the "rookie all-star" being a qualifying award. Something everyone emphasized was "rookies should get to experience The Championship". This rule allows for the *best* rookies to experience "the big show" while still keeping things competitive.


Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a "free ride" to the championship, but at least you'll get to go eventually....

In the mean time... enjoy yourself at FIRST's new (unconfirmed) "Mega-Regionals" and try to earn your trip down to The Championship.

I know there may be a few flaws with this system, but I think we should sit back and see how it actually works before we overly-criticize it. I believe FIRST has done a bang-up job in crafting this new system.

I'm also confident that FIRST will (again!) listen to team's comments/concerns about the system (as we see them this year), when they are looking at 2005.

Let's give this system a chance.
I think it will be GREAT for FIRST in the long term.
It will certainly bridge the gap between now and any "Regional Championship" system they might implement in the future.

Just my comments...
John


(If nothing else, this will light a fire under the butts of those *veteran* teams as they scramble to qualify... should be a fun and competitive season :) I know I'm going to tell my guys... "We either put up, or shut up!" ;) ).

Unless I am not reading something I think that this system really sucks. First I have to say that the only reason why I still work with first and promote it is because of it's ethics and gracious professionalism. Now with that said what is the point of a national champion with out the best robots there. I DO NOT WANT A SINCE FAIR. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best.

Shaun

Everyone: I'm sorry if I accidentally advocated a rumor. There's a little ambiguous point in where rookie teams stand as well as those who've never been. The best way to figure this out is to look in the team information system. I would think that they are doing as Patrick pointed out.

I think this will work and I'm glad they came up with something, so I agree with John that we should be thankful and ride this out for a while to see how it works. The larger problem still lurks in the distance though.

Shaun: This isn't turning into a science fair. The best teams still get to go. If you read the opening it says "Outstanding team performance or outstanding robot performance is the ticket." They are bringing in the best robots from all the regionals: the engineering inspiration, the rookie all-stars, and the regional champs. On top of that they're bringing back the champs from the previous year! And this year you can still qualify by the points system. What more do you want?

I did not see where reagion winner go the only thing i see is national winner get to return

Re: /me confused
 

Teams that can register on 10/22 are:

All prior Championship Chairman's Award winners
Original and sustaining teams from 1992
2003 Championship "Stack Attack" winners
2003 Point qualifiers based on the previous 5 point or more system

And I'm not really clear on how they are registering with the Tier system, I think it is that X spots will be open for Tier 6, X for 5 and so on....Don't quote me on it though. Obviously Tier 6 will have many more spots than Tier 1

Teams that qualify at 2004 events will register through FIRST the Monday following their event if they are going to go, they get to work out all the fun logistics such as paying the entry fee, shipping, travel and all that fun stuff.

Hope that helps.

/me still confused
 

And where do u see that anywhere on the FIRST page about the Championship? Where did find that out if not from the FIRST homepage?

Re: /me still confused
 

You will find it on the finance page.

Finance Page


Wetzel

Re: Great Job!
 

I hope this doesn't seriously happen.. Think about it, if you join a FIRST team in your freshman year, and stay with it during all 4 years of high school, but have to leave for college, work, etc. after you graduate, then you have missed out on the opportunity to experience what a first National competition is all about.

True, you will have gone to many regionals, and maybe mini comps along the way, but the Nationals event is the grandest event in FIRST.. Why take that experience away from someone??

Compared to a regional or mini comp, Nationals is indescribable!

I think that every team should at least have an opportunity to go to the Nats every 4 years at least (3 would be better, 2 would be great) because of just that reason.

I hope this is just a temporary solution like it has been guessed before!

I would like to encourage everyone to wait 30 minutes when they thought they have something important to ask/comment, to think about it and research for an answer before it cause any confusion to all the readers out there reading this thread.

Couple of clarifications:

1. On the FIRST website, although there is no direct link in the front, you can go into FIRST Robotics Competition, then into Championship Event to look up the 2004 Championship Eligibility. This is not a joke trying to fool people. The link is http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/cmp_elig.htm

2. Take your time to read it. There are a few ways you can qualify for Championship Event 2004:

A. All prior Championship Chairman's Award Winners, original teams from 92', 03' Stack Attack CE (Championship Event) Champions.

B. Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season:

Regional Chairman's Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Engineering Inspiration Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Rookie All-Star Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Champions (3 per Regional)

C. Point system from last year, only effective for 2004. The Point system will not be used after 2004 until they change the rules to allow it.

D. Tiered system: The longer you haven't been to CE, the more likely you will get in.

3. The original sustaining 92' teams are:

19 - Big Red Robotics
45 - Technokats
126 - Gael Force
190 - WPI
191 - Xcats
250 - Dynamos


Again, please let the reasoning and logic part of your brain kicks in and not let the emotional and feelings part take over and rush to a post. Thanks.

I too agree that this is an improvement over the existing point system. But it still needs work

More teams will get a chance to go to the Nats. That should be paramount. But ALL should be able to go on equal terms or we should make this a true championship

But it makes the current season's winners jump trough hoops to get qualified to attend. At least in the past you could prequalify to travel based on the prior season's play. Now you have a potential for 60 teams or more needing to scramble to make trip arrangements at the last minute. It will be costly and nerve wracking. It has already proven an excluding force this past year for many teams who won but couldn't come up with the travel arrangements at the last minute. And if that is the case is there really a championship? I see a lot of good machines being left behind because they won too late.

The solution is to expand the Nationals- something that everyone at FIRST refuses to acknowledge. It is not impossible but apparenly is not in the mindset of the parent organization.

As for mega-regionals? If they are as good as the Nats, are recognized as the Nats are and offer travel experience for the team on par with the Nats then I say go for it. But frankly, I doubt that will be the case. We have a long way to go before all the regionals have the same quality as the Nationals. And selling a trip to the National Championships to my superintendant is a lot easer than selling a trip to some regional in xyz.

Will FIRST guarantee that a team gets to the Nats every 4 years? I wonder and hope so.

Wouldn't it be easier to just add 500 new teams than try to figure out who can or can't go? My team will be there this year and we want to keep attending. But I dread the idea of needing to win during the season and raise a huge sum of money for the team to travel at the last minute on compromised terms.


WC

Elgin: They are also trying to please the crowd that wants the best robots there I'm in that crowd and the crowd that wants everyone to be there, so I agree with you that it would be nice to have everyone go every couple years. But that is highly unlikely.

Everyone: I would like to point out the fact that the system for going to the CE is in it's third evolution (first everyone could go, then even/odd and points, now tiers). It changed because it needed to be changed and because we wanted it to be changed, respectively. I think if we come to a point where we find the system to be flawed or unfavorable, then it will be changed again. FIRST has never turned a deaf ear to us because we are FIRST and FIRST is us. This solution came out of countless hours of reading forum notes from individuals.

Re: Great Job!
 

We need a bigger National- not a smaller field. I thought we were trying to reach ALL the high schools in the Nation?

WC:cool:

I have mixed feelings about the new system. I like the tier system a lot as it ensures that everyone gets to go eventually. However, I really don't like the fact that after this year most awards will count for next to nothing. The technology awards are there to acknowledge teams with great design regardless of their overall performance. Its fairly easy to have the most amazing design ever, but not be able to win a regional due to bad luck, bad alliance selection, or something like that. Also, the judges awards and team spirit awards acknowledge teams that are making great contribution, even though it might not be as much as the teams that win Chairman's or Engineering Inspiration. These teams should still get a better chance to go to nationals, especially team spirit as they add a lot to the overall atmosphere of the competition. Perhaps FIRST could use a modified points system to help award winning teams qualify. Under this system, you would get points based on your tier(ie 1st tier-1 point, 2nd tier- 2 points, etc) and then additional points based on awards. The number of points necessary to qualify could be changed every year based on the number of spots available.

I also really don't like the extremely limited amount of time given for teams who qualify during the season(which is almost everyone under the new system). 2 days is just not enough to get permission from the school district, raise the money, etc. Since there's a free week between the last regional and nationals, why not make the deadline for all teams in the time frame? Also, since theres such short notice, I hope that FIRST can reserve hotel rooms and flights for teams that qualify at the last minute.

This seems very unclear about how the tiered system operates and that makes me anxious.

As Ricky mentioned, is it that a fraction of the open spots available each year are designated to be for any one tier? That is, there'd be 20 open spots for Tier 6, 20 for Tier 5, 20 for 4, etc.? Or, is it that the entirety of the open spots are made available for registration on a tier by tier basis? In other words, Tier 6 teams are given a week to register for, say, 150 open spots, then tier 5 gets access to what's left for a week, etc.?

Then, if it gets to Tier 3 which contains, say, 80 teams and there are only 40 slots available, it says there'll be a lottery to determine eligibility. Well, how does the lottery work and when will teams be notified?

I'd like for this to be clarified.

Wayne, let me say one thing since you run an off-season competition. Would it be easier for your team to make Brunswick Eruptuion 2004, 2005 etc... larger to fit 200 teams if they wanted to attend or would it be easier to make a fair way to pick only certain amounts of teams to attend. think about that please and think of the logistics behind an event that you want to hold 1000 teams or so compaired to an event to hold 350 teams or so. i think personally FIRST might beable to let more people in if they had more people to help work at the event...

~Mike

I agree with you on that point. It seems FIRST is leaning more toward better performing robots than creative designs. If I'm not mistaken my team has attended the CE every year since 2000 (or 2001 maybe) because of a combination of a tech award, the even/odd system and winning SBPLI in 2001. By cutting out the awards you start alienating a lot of teams. I always thought the point of FIRST was to come up with great designs, not to win a competition, and the awards motivated that, now it doesn't seem that way. :(

Well for those who lost me in my sea of rambling, I think the awards should be worth more, just my thoughts.

/me unconfused
 

I think i understand the new system now, but i still don't like it.
I feel that if the new system stays in place foo an indefinite amount of time then we will wind up w/ a "Championship"(and i use that term loosely) where you see a majority of same teams year after year qualifying.

I feel this new system is too restricted and doesn't give small teams (such as my own) who do very well by their own standards a chance to become serious competitors (by that i mean they don't get the chance to compete against teams from across the country and a chance to compete against some of the better teams in first)

And as for "mega regionals" i don't see them happening in the near future. But even if something like that arises in the next few years it still wont (in my mind) have the same feeling/prestige(possibly a bad term to use) of a "championship", Nor do i see teams traveling across the country to "mega regionals" as they do for the Championship b/c of that reason

Generalbrando: define "best", how can any one person/group of people decide what the "best" robots in FIRST are?

Thats just my opinion on this subject, take for what u want.

Soo what about 2nd year teams who have never been and never qualified? What teir are we in? It seems we have no way to qualify other than regional performance.

computhief263: I don't know how any group can determine the "best"robots in a just way because I don't understand what it means to be just (been reading Plato, sorry). Anyway, I wasn't making any reference to the points you made. I was really just trying to make the point that the robots that do well in the competition (and therefore could be argued as some of the best) get to go to the CE. Don't take that to mean that the best team is the one with the winning robot - we don't need to go on that tangent:)

Mike- it WOULD be easier to expand BE to fit 200 teams if they wanted to come. Seriously. I'd love to do it- especially at $4000 a pop. Unfortunately I don't get that response to our event.

I honestly believe that FIRST could expand the field for Nats. The underusage of the Houston fields is an example. They could have had 5 fields active there as it was and had room to add two more. The championship field sat idle all tournament. But, despite being told we "outgrew Disney", we cut the field to less than we had in years past.

It is ludicrous to me that we are trying to reach every kid in every HS in the country but have no visible plan for expansion of the Nationals.

As for volunteerism- Mike, you know that I do so and have my team do so as much as we can. I know of dozens of people who would be happy to work with FIRST, have offered it in the past- and many of us DO work at our regional. What more can we do?
I suggested at one time that each regional offer a volunteer group to man a field at Nats. Got a better idea?

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE FIRST and devote much of my life to it these days. Probably much more than most. But FIRST can be improved and is not infallible.

I think the willingness to bring the teams who havent attended Nats into the field is highly laudible. But there should also be a mechanism to keep the large numbers of "B"grade teams who have helped build FIRST annually in the mix too.

We simply need more slots for the Nationals. It CAN be done. There is nothing impossible here.

WC

OK sorry Wayne, i misunderstood your last post, i thought that you were bashing the organization you and us all love by using the eligibility criteria as a way to say no to teams not being let to go to Nat's. Just as you prob know as i was at I.R.I., i have and will travel to work for people and for first to get comps and events going. i see your point and agree with it that we need more teams there so we can even out the competitions more and have more fun. but i just don't think it will happen soon where first will be able to let 300-500 more teams attend, i would love it but i don't think it will happen. the reason why i don't think it will happen, is because of volunteers. as you know along with others, when it comes to people to work events first doesn't have the largest amount of people jumping the gun. i wish more people would sacrifice one or two weeks a year to work at the competitions as a volunteer, because that will be the only way we can get more fields so more teams can attend. my team personally had at least half of our members if not more who attended Nat's this past year volunteer for first, and it didn't effect the teams role at all over the week. now i bet we could get more teams out there to send off one or two people to help volunteer but they aren't doing it cause they don't get anything tangible in return. i want to say something here that may offend some of you but i am going out on a branch and saying that i bet less then 10% of people who are active on a team thats not a mentor or adult have volunteered or worked at a first event before, now how can we get that number higher?
~Mike

Hmmmm. I would bet that number is lower. I'd say 5%. Dez, I realized something odd about my views on all the stuff you talked about. I've always looked at FIRST volunteers and thought "oh man, that would be cool to do" - even though they were just resetting the field or queuing teams. What I realized is that despite my envy, I've never really looked to figure out how I could become one of them. I guess I always felt at a distance and just assumed that I couldn't do it because I was just a kid or something like that. Maybe then the problem is that we just need to get the word out a little more. Granted they now have members of teams inspecting robots and at some regionals (like St. Louis) they ask anyone who can to come help take care of things like resetting the field when they have time (I didn't have time:( ). Perhaps FIRST could put out a notice after the build period that it's looking for volunteers and start registering people after they've been hooked by the building, but after they are so busy that they can't think about it. The problem may be something else for others, but I think that if you get every coach to push the idea of volunteering or just start pulling in more people through friendships and word of mouth - the numbers might be higher.

A quick suggestion:

Everyone needs to re-read Ken Leung's post before they fire off a post that is based on a poor, or incomplete, understanding of the new qualification criteria.

Many of the above posts indicate that one point is being missed about the new system: under the new criteria, once a team attends the Championship Event they "go to the back of the line" (ie. reset to Tier 1) for the following year. Thus, teams will continually cycle through the tiers, bumping up one level each year until they attend again.

Historically, approximately 40% of the teams that eligible to attend the Championship actually choose to attend for any given year. Combine this with the prior point, and the projected growth rate in the number of FIRST teams for the next several years, and do the math. You will find that every team should be able to attend the Championship at least once, and in many cases twice, within the four-year academic career of the student members of the team.

-dave

Yes travel arrangements in short time periods can be a pain (my team last year had two and a half weeks from winning a regional until leaving for championships). But as for raising the money, couldnt a team just raise the money as if they are going and then if they do qualify they are ready, and if they dont they have a head start for the next season.

Being on a rookie team I know this years chances are slim, but we are fundraising and finding sponsors as if we are going.

Allison

For some teams its hard enough just raising the initial funds required to register that trying to raise the money for nationals as well when they have have a slim chance at qualifying isn't really possible. With the extra motivation of qualifying, these teams might be able to push their sponsors for more money and maybe do additional fundraisers, but all these take more time than is allowed under the new system.

While it is hard enough to raise money it's not going to get any easier because you're going to Nationals, save for some sponsors different mindsets. My team isn't sure if we going to the Championship but we're planning fundraisers to do whether or not we make it. Money can't hurt and if your team isn't motivated to do work no matter the competition you might want to evaluate how things are done I'm not saying you have to go out and get every available cent, but there is no reason to sit around doing nothing after you raise necessary funds. Now if you don't have time to raise money after making registration that's fine, but then don't complain about not having enough time after qualification to raise money.

A couple of the teams that I have worked with, the primary sponsor said that if the team qualified, they would cover the costs...see if you can work something like this out with your sponsor...

This has been boggling my mind for 3 days now, FIRST Team Support has an email in on it, hopefully they'll get back to us soon. Because if it is that case that Tier 6 gets 20 spots and so on, then TIMS will be a mess on 10/22 as the Tier 1 teams duke it out for a very limited number of spots, also it could change a lot of travel plans, as if we can get in as a Tier 1 team, we will not attend a 2nd regional.

As for making last second payments, and travel and all that good stuff, there's nothing really that can resolve that, unless you push the Championship back from the last weekend of regionals, which would cause more date havoc. If your team really thinks they have a good chance at qualifying at a regional, you need to get of your logistics set before your regional, as in where your $4000 is, who you're gonna call for travel (its all in the connections :p ) and who from your team is going to go. We decided that if we qualify at a regional event this year, that only a very small portion of the team (less than 10) will attend in Atlanta. And we will have $4000 set aside for it, if we don't go, then thats $4k for next year.

The issue with increasing the size of championship isn't an issue of space. There's plenty of space no matter where we would go. The real issue is in regards to dealing with more teams than they have in the past. The championship is already a logistical nightmare. FIRST has enough trouble managing it as it is. I'd hate to see how the management would go if it got even bigger.

I believe the response I got when I once suggested just making the championship bigger was "See this pen? Stab it in my eye." (Team Forum, 2001)

Matt

When Dean Kamen was at RIT two weeks ago, he talked about the direction that FIRST is taking.

To put things in perspective, 26 teams attended the orginal FIRST event in '92. It was held in a HS gym. That was the only event held that year.

The goal of FIRST is : (Everyone should KNOW this) to have a team at EVERY HS in the US within the next few years.

How many HS are there in america? 10,000? 20,000?

Are we going to have a championship wit 10,000 teams attending?! Obviously not.

So here we are, in between those original 26 teams at a HS gym, and the near future with 10,000 or more teams.

FIRST is looking ahead. We cannot put on a big enough championship for every team to attend now, or every other team.

If we have 1000 teams this year and a 300 team championship, then less than a 1/3rd of the teams can go. Once we get 1200 teams then every team can only goe once every 4 years.

once we get to 2400 teams, then once every 8 years.

Dean pointed out that allowing the championship to grow beyond 300 teams, does not add anything to its purpose. A 400 team regional does not fullfill its purpose any better than 300 teams - once you have filled a whole stadium....

Ohhhhhhh! WHAT?! wait a minute... The Championship has a PURPOSE?

and the purpose is NOT to have as many teams attend as humanly possible?!

whats going on here? What IS the purpose of the championship?

What is the purpose of FIRST?

are we trying to establish which HS/sponsor can build the best box stacking, ramp climbing, ball collecting, goal dragging machine in the world? Is that what FIRST is trying to promote?

I encourage eveyone to sit down, have a cup of tea, turn your computer off for a while and think about this for a while: Why are we here? why are we doing this?

If you think traveling with your team has some special reward, then by all means - sign your team up for the regional at NASA in florida this year, or the one in southern california, or the one in toronto, or NYC - by all means take your team on the road

go somewhere different every year - nothing is stopping you.

To put things into perspective, how many professional football teams are there in the US? and how many get to play in their championship (the superbowl) ?

TWO!

there is a reason behind the criteria for the championship [hint: FIRST is NOT a robot building contest]

What is the purpose of FIRST then?

Clarifications and Questions
 

The Tier system is a great idea; however, way it is presented leads to some confusion. As I read it, the system is just steps to obtaining a list of teams that qualify:

Step 1:"All teams will be classified in a Tier (ie. Tier 6 equals six years since attending a Championship or last attended in 1998; Tier 2 equals two years since attending or attended in 2002). "
-The teams in the higher tiers are eligible until the point that the number of teams in a tier is greater than the number of available spots left. At this point we move onto step 2.

Step 2: "If the number of teams in a tier is greater than the number of available slots, FIRST will use a lottery system for teams within each tier to determine eligibility for the remaining open slots."
- All of the teams in the tier in which #teams>#slots left will be eligible if they are selected by the lottery.

Step 3: "The final determination will be first come/first serve until all available openings are filled. A wait list will be maintained for any openings that become available after the close of registration. Typically 10 to 15 openings occur during the Competition season."
- This step is the unclear one. How would there ever be a first come first serve basis? If a lottery is held to fill all of the remaining slots why would there be more slots? If it is to fill the drop outs, then is the first come, first serve only within the tier that the lottery was held? If anyone could clarify this will facts from FIRST or the eligibility document that would be great.

The tier that the rookies are has also been a question in this thread. I would assume that they are in Tier 1 and not tier 6 as some people have suggested. If they were in tier 6 then winning the rookie all-star award would mean nothing as far as making ineligible rookies eligible. Can anyone officially clarify this also?


Eric

Also, I don't believe I have gotten an answer to my question:

Say a fourth year team has never been to the CE, what tier would they be in?

This wasn't about my team(chances are we won't ever go to nationals again, and money isn't the issue), I was speaking more in general. I remember this season there were many teams just unable to come up with the money in time. I agree that many sponsors would cover the cost if the team qualified on merit, but the problem is getting that money in time. With only two days(only one business day), it would be very hard to negotiate such a thing in time, especially with the bureaucracy in many companies.

they have it set up this year so theres an extra week from the last regional to nationals...
~Mike

how do other HS teams manage the flexibily in playoffs and championships?

if your football team wins all its games, and goes to the state championship, that money comes from somewhere? and they dont know if they are going until a week or two before the event, right?

FIRST teams and sponsors will have to find a way to adapt to the growing pains we are experiencing - if you cant goto the championship this year, hopefully your sponsor can find a way to set aside some funds for next year.

Frankly, I love this new system and I think this makes it fair and just. But I don't like having all '92 teams automatically go, that is just dosn't sit well with me.

Okay.
Why?

They are 6 teams... SIX, this is a drop in the bucket, and doesn't significantly affect "the numbers" either way.

Without these teams, there would be NO FIRST, there would be NO Nationals, there would be NO 384, and you would just be another bored HSer who has a vague idea about what enginerding is, and thinks he might, maybe, possibly want to get into it.

19, 45, 126, 190, 191, 250

They are NOT all the best teams in FIRST. Many of them would NOT qualify every year based on performance.

But... they were here FIRST. They laid the groundwork so that we can be here today.

This is FIRST's way of saying thank you, their way of saying "we remember".

So... jeez Joe, what about this possibly "doesn't sit well" with you?


This quote struck me... everyone should read this, and THINK before they comment on this particular issue.

"I have to add, not only is it an accomplishment to have sustained a team for 13 years

the fact that these teams signed up in '92 for something that was just an idea also deserves special recognition.

Without those original teams, there would be no FIRST. I think I can speak for every team in the Rochester, NY area, that we all owe our existance to the spirit and drive of the Xerox/Wilson Xcats - they really spread the idea of FIRST in this area - and next year we will have a regional here.

The original teams were pioneers in every sense of the word!" - Ken Wittlief
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...653#post191653

This whole thing is just a nice gesture from FIRST.
It does not affect things one way or the other.
Why would you possibly be against it?


John

Because his team isnt one of the first 6?

*shrug*

Cory

I have some of the same uneasiness with them being allowed to remain. I think it resembles to much of a class system, or being elitist. We've been here longer, so we can go.

Thats what it appears as to me. I really hadn't considered the effort to sustain a program for 13 years. That consideration has moved my opinion very near neutral on that issue.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~
mmm..big band

"All teams will be classified in a Tier (ie. Tier 6 equals six years since attending a Championship or last attended in 1998; Tier 2 equals two years since attending or attended in 2002)."
So wouldn't a team who hadn't attended nationals yet be Tier 0?

It is a class system and it's only getting worse with the introduction of a tiered system. At least the tiered system has potential benefit for every team, though.

I don't lose sleep knowing that the remaining original teams are getting a free ride, but if I were in a position to decide, things would be arranged differently. But then, that's true of a lot of things in FIRST these days.

[sarcasm] I liked FIRST much better when there were only about 200 teams, and the championship was held at WDW, and everyone could go, so I think we should cap FIRST at the first 200 teams that were formed, and not let any new teams be created unless a team disbands. What do we need all these new teams for anyway? [/sarcasm]

it occurred to me - how well you understand the new championship qualifications, and how well you accept them

is a good indication of how well you understand what FIRST is all about, and where its going in the next 10 years.

Please, avoid making generalized statements about "What FIRST is about" because, honestly, what it means to you probably has little in common with what it means to me. It affects people in positive ways, and I think that it's really, really dangerous, myopic and limiting to say that there's any one reason why anyone should be involved in this program.

If someone disagrees with or challenges the "Championship Eligibility Criteria," and they voice those feelings, as far as I'm concerned, they get what FIRST is about.

Your mileage may vary.

FIRST is an internation program, and it really does exist for one specific, well defined reason. EDIT: the purpose of FIRST was defined by its founder, one person.

And that one reason is why many people are devoting their personal time, and many corporations are donating millions of dollars, to individual teams, and directly to FIRST

If people are participating in this program for 'other' reasons, then FIRST will be divided, splintered, pulled in different directions, there will be arguments and contention.

I dont think im being myopic by saying that FIRST has a single, well defined purpose for its existance.

Without the 28 original teams, FIRST as we know it wouldn't exist.

It's true that founding teams don't get a free ride in pro sports (otherwise, my Wings would be in the playoffs every year...:)). But the competition in FIRST has always been secondary to the learning experience. The six remaining teams have much to offer from their experience, especially to teams in their first year.

Don't hurt me! *shrives up in corner*

What I mean is this: If they allow all '92 teams, what about the '93 teams, or the '94. They were as pionering, if not more, than the '92, so why leave them out? I just think that just because they've stuck around DOSN'T mean that they should just automatically make it to Nats. Where does the line end? Sure, we should congradulate them on it, but not with giving them something that others don't have.

so, if there were some international science and technology convention, and you were the doorman

and Neil and Buzz came walking up

would you stop them?

"But we were the first men to walk on the moon!"

"well yeah, thats cool

but what have you done lately?"

:c)

DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!! :ahh:

I mean, I never said that, did I? NOOOOOOOO. I said where do you draw the line? Will you let the rest of the Apallo guys on, what about Gemini? Or how about the Sky Lab guys?

with all the arguments that everyone is saying about the original 6 teams that are still here out of those 28, and how they get a free ride is finally getting to me. i am going to continue this post on my own thoughts and conditions, it has no input from my team nor any other the other 5 left. What i want to say is going to be a very harsh reality to many of you and i will prob get grief back at "home base" of 250 for saying this but i am going to post it to show some truths behind the craze of being on a team that was formed in 1992 and has competed each year since then.

This organization brought me in when i was an 8th grader, i did not join a team until my sophomore year in high school because i wasn't sure if i wanted to be on a team or just watch it on TV still. though i was lucky enough to be brought into a family when i joined named; Team 250: Capital Region Robotics, The Dynamos. these people have been close to me and have shown me what the truth behind FIRST really is, and at points i wish i didn't join this team, as every team does have their bad times. But you may think oh were an original team, it must be easy to stay around now! But that truthfully is the exact opposite of what it is like to be on this team. our funding has not been the steadiest and our team at points have not been the closest. i am not going to go into personal events as this is not the time nor place for them, but our team is like each and every other team out there. we may get a "free ride" to the nationals event but believe me when i say this and many other teams can contest to this, the original 6 teams that still are around today, and personally i can speak here for 250, WE WORK OUR A$$ES OFF STILL AND SHED OUR BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS FOR THIS ORGANIZATION WE CALL HOME. We don't do it though for the ride to Nat's or for the recognition, we do it for the main purpose of FIRST and that is to spread this organization to our next coming generation and to other schools then just ourself. We may have been here longer then almost all other teams but we still are dynamic and we are never the same one year to another.

At this time i would like to once again ask you all to take a step back from your monitor and look at what everyone has done including yourself to make this place we call home, a better place. Also if you can for a minuet, just think what this place might be (or NOT be) with out the 6 teams that are still around from 1992.

~Mike

Sigh

I know that they were hard years. I know. I REALLY DO. I know about everything you told me. But my problem is why just limit it to the '92 year teams? And what about the numerous other teams that have helped tons over the years? Do they get 'free rides'? Understand where I come from?

Now I'm just going to back off. I don't want to get killed again. :(

i understand where you are coming from, but i don't think you are completely understanding the reason why these 6 teams are going. they took the initial investment and time to see if first would work. they spent the money they could get for the first year to compete in a high school gymnasium in new Hampshire with things that if we saw now we might wonder what they were. these teams not only have defined what the meaning of first truly is but have defined what it means to give to others before they receive anything back. if you have a problem with these 6 teams getting as some people call it a "free ride" to you have a problem with all past national chairmans award winners getting that "free ride" also, because truthfully not all past national chairman award winners are still around today, but we still are.
~Mike

I guess if Collins shows up, you could make him sit outside in the car for two days (again :c)

just tell him its the command module

BTW - all 6 teams are not getting a free ride

191 - the Xcats have also won the Chairmans award

twice!

so, they really SHOULD be allowed to bring two friends with them - since they have earnd a seat at the table three times over

(two 'friend' teams :c)

so unless other founding teams have also won the chairmans award, that means only 5 teams are squeaking in

by virture of their unique history (moldly oldies :c)

A brief Aside...
 

Mike and Joe-

You ARE representatives of 250 and 384 respectively. When you are on here, you are representing your teams. Just as I am representing 229, Andy Baker is representing 45, and Tytus Gerrish is representing 179.

The disclaimers in your signature... do not take away from this.

I do not want these "Whatever comes out of my mouth is the responsibility of no one" disclaimers to become a trend.

This is not the case. People make judgements all the time based on much less, regardless of how wrong they are. The things you say, can and WILL influence the opinions of people concerning your team.

John

yeah, team 250, we got the engineering inspiration award last year at U.T.C. so can we bring a friend too, come on and look at reality, we wouldn't be arguing here now if it wasn't for these 6 teams. so personally i think that these 6 teams have more then earned and still are earning these spots.

~Mike

P.S.~John that has been there since last year and its in part of another post, i would remove that but i don't want the head aches again. and yes i know what i post here reflects 250.

Im scared :(

Careful now...
You will start sounding elitist.

The 13 year teams are not *special*. There are plenty of other teams who do much more than what these 6 are doing. To say that you have "worked hard and earned your spot" is unfair. Plenty of other teams have done more to earn their spot as well...

You get to go as a "Favor" if you will... this is FIRST's way of saying thank you. Do not even START to assume that you are "better".

John

These teams are not Neil Armstrong or Buzz Aldrin. They're their kids, nephews, nieces, and third cousins.

In some cases, I know that there are teachers or sponsors who have been involved with the team since its inception -- but then that opens up a whole other can of worms, doesn't it? Who is a team? The students or their mentors?

now that I think of it, there is a way for other teams to get 'most favored' status

1. invent a time machine
2. go back to 1992
3. start a team at your school for the original FIRST comp
4. come back to 2003, now there will be 7 teams on the list

piece of cake :c)

gosh, I never thought about that!

i HOPE there are not still students on the original6.org teams who still havent graduated from HS, and are still on the team!

come on guys, this is getting silly. Ever since Ive been involved with FIRST, the original teams have always had a special recognition amoungst the students and adult mentors

along with the chairmans award winners

and the championship winners

FIRST is all about getting students to see technology leaders as heros - and these teams are heros for stepping up to the plate in '92

If it really begrudges your team that much that these teams are given this recognition, Im sure we can start a petition, and hold a demostration outside Deans house

until they increase the size of the championship from 300 teams

to 305!

Whos with me? lets march on WestWind! :c)

LOL. I'll go to his house, but I'll be asking for a tour instead of a change in this policy. I personally don't see a problem with these 6 going. I won't give my reasons because everyone's already said them. Beyond those reasons though, the fact is that FIRST has their reasons and I respect them for that. I'm not saying we should listen to them no matter what and agree with what they do. I'm just saying that the probably had these same discussions at their meetings and they came to this conclusion. That's enough for me.

Technology Awards
 

I'm just fine with most of the new criteria. But I don't see why the only technology award that can get a team qualified is Engineering Inspiration. I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate award, but what about the other ones? Like Leadership in Controls or Driving Tomorrow's Technology? I think they all deserve equal recognition.

goto the kickoff meeting in NH - Dean invites everyone to his house the night before to have dinner

but dont ask for a tour - its more fun to explore his house on your own - I got to go in '99 - coolest home Ive ever seen

esp the secret passages - and if you've been there, you know where I got my sig line from.

Hey man I have a flux compacitor, I just need a delorian to put it in

I have a silver Fiero - its not a delorean, but from a distance, its close :c)

Re: Technology Awards
 

Actually, it isn't a technical award...
Quoth the manual:
So it seems technical awards no longer qualify you for Championships.

Re: Technology Awards
 

To make a point, at competitions they say the Engineering Inspiration Award is the 2nd place chairmans award just like what it says in the FIRST manual...its on a completely different level then the rest of the awards w/ exception to chairmans award

Personally, the FIRST rules for this year are fine. The previous years have been a quick fix to the problem as our team lead (thank you Erin!) was explaining to us. FIRST awards have alwaysd been held in certain leels not only to FIRST but to individual teams. Like to some the Motorola Quality Award from regionals means more than a Regional Championship. But FIRST has always published a list of the awards, its citeria, and how they would be viewed or ranked within FIRST circles. They've just applied it here.

I see three major points being argued in this thread.

1. The original 6 teams shouldn't be get a free ride.

While I personally think that those 6 teams shouldn't get a free ride, this is the same rule that has been argued about over the past 2 years. I haven't seen any new information presented on the against side, and the for side seem to have better arguments then before.

2. It's really hard to travel on such short notice

Yes, it is hard to travel on such short notice, and even harder to raise funds that quickly. However, there are LESS teams traveling on short notice then before. This year, only 6 teams will qualify from each regional. Last year, there were 8 from each regional.

3. Nationals shouldn't be limited

Very few people have argued that nationals were better when they were smaller, the issue is how big can nationals get? I think it is possible for nationals to get bigger then the current 300 team limit. But, I know they can't get big enough to encompass every high school in the country. Is it a big deal if they could have 400 teams out of 800 go to nationals, instead of 300? maybe. What about that difference of 100 when there are 10,000 teams?

Just for reference, the Championships of the Quiz bowl, had about 50 teams, the Academic decathalon had 37 and MATHCOUNTS had 25. I'd say FIRST is way ahead of the curve as far as getting teams to participate in the championships. Also, AFAIK, there is no national championships for any high school sports teams.

I am not a fan of those people who tell you not to argue. So I'm not telling you not to argue, but to look at the whole picture when arguing.

Clarification:
Rookies will be in the "zeroeth" tier. They will then drop down from there. So... this year, any 2003 rookies who did not go to Houston are in Tier 1.

I believe that FIRST tried to rush this information out by the end of the day Friday. They will most likely have an improved description out sometime early this week.

:)
John

how is that possible? we never went to nat's therefore we should drop into the 6th tier, that is if you're looking at it in the same light as everyone else that tier 6 gets a chance to go to nat's first?

I very much like the new rules.

I am going to say these in the nicest way possible:

1. It amazes me that people in the FIRST community are people who can create something from nothing, but relentlessly criticize the helping hands that let them create.

2. Don't be skeptical and criticize when you haven't even tried it out. Once it's been played out and you don't like it, then you can post and give reasons. If you are just skeptical and pointing out why you don't like something, it has little emphasis.

3. I think FIRST is trying its darndest to do the BEST thing. Please keep that in mind - How many meetings do you think were held, how many people put their ideas on the line, to come up with something that is (in their eyes) both fair and just?

4. Until we get through this year and see how the process works, deal.

I'm sorry if this offends you; it isn't meant to make someone mad or point someone out. Just please realize that there's a group of people trying very hard to do the best for the organization, and what is best for your team. While a lot of teams aren't happy about this, think about all the teams this will benefit.

I personally applaud FIRST's decision. Thank you for your decision to benefit all of us.

:)

I'm a huge fan of #4.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

To be fair, last year many of the teams who qualified during regionals were already going through the even/odd system or points from the year before. My argument was that they aren't giving as much time as possible. Right now you have to finalize payment by the Monday after. But with the new scheduling even after the last regionals theres over a week before Nationals. I understand they want to make it fair so everyone has the same amount of time, but I don't see why they can't extend it to the Friday after the regional.

if you are a rookie team this year, and another team has been around for 5 or 6 years

then which team has put more work into FIRST, one that has been here for 6 years, or a new team?

if the championship is a reward, which team has done more to earn it?

clearly the team that has 6 years of effort behind it, over a new team.

There are many things in life that you have to work towards. Somethings take years to acheive.

Re: A brief Aside...
 

When it has gotten to the point when people start to put my own personal opinions and connect them with my team, then it's become a problem. This forum is for press releases, but for a place where we can chat about FIRST. Our teams are just a reference, not a form of controll.

*backs off*

It's possible because the Tier you are in is based on how long you've been "waiting" to go to the championship. If you're a rookie, you've been waiting for zero years. If you haven't been to the championship for three years, you've been waiting for three years. It's pretty clear to me that it's more fair for the team that's been waiting longest to go.

Matt

Part 1 is part of the design process, if you don't look for the flaws before hand, they will only show up later when it is more painful/expensive/to late to fix.
Same with part 2, if I don't think something won't work/isn't right, I will point it out. I may not have a solution, but there are alot of other people that read this, and they might take bits here and there and find a solution.

Part 4, indeed. :) While I will voice my concerns, I will voice them and then move onto the game.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You can either spend lots of energy complaining about it and whining or you can try to figure out how to make a positive experience from the whole thing." ~Dave

Every announcement by FIRST is met with praise, joy, criticism, complaining, whining, and bickering, sometimes all from one person. So why would the reaction to the new Championship eligibility criteria be any different? Why would we react differently than we did 2 years ago (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...p?threadid=664. Read that thread and see what issues we had with the system that was in place the for past two years.

I guess I'll make my post useful and give a very brief opinion. I was disappointed to see the four major technical awards loose their status as qualifiers to Nats. Teams that work hard to build robots worty of technical awards are an asset to FIRST. It's a shame to see that FIRST doesn't hold the awards in such a high regard anymore.

Now go back to your bickering.

Mike

every one should chill out!!!!!!!!
this probably isnt Forever!!!!!!!
dont forget, we helped them come to this! they got alot of their stuff off the delphi thread on this probably!!!!
this does make this more of a championship to probably. And dont freak out about those teirs. If those teams have not gone in a long time its likley that they wont go now! They may not go because they dont have the resources to go (ie MONEY!!!!!!!)
This also makes you wanna build another robot huh?
ive said my 2 cents

steps off soap box

I haven't been here for the other system but if you ask me ya'll seem to be cryin about not gettin a free ride. The championship is what it should be now it is a compitition of champions. So stop whining build a bridge and either get ove4r it or build a better robot.

Some people "feel" that the system is unfair. They either think that the FIRST Championships should be a competition or a celebration. It is apparent that FIRST is doing their best to appease both. While they really didn't want to change things, it was necessary that the change took place.

I have certain "feelings" about these changes also, but before I post my opinions, it would be nice to see some hard facts. Let's look at the numbers:

Pre-qualifying teams:
--------------------------
6 sustaining teams from '92 (although I have heard of a 7th)
12 Chairman's Award teams
3 Champions from 2003
XX teams who received 5 points from last year (PQ5)

It would be nice to know how many PQ5 teams there are. I assume that there are 70. If we know this number, then we know the total number of pre-qualified teams (PQ). Let's assume that PQ5=70, therefore PQ=91.

2004 qualifying teams (merit-based qualifiers):
----------------------------
78 Regional winners (at the most)
26 Chairman's Award winners
26 Engineering Inspiration winners
26 Rookie All-Stars

This total is easy. However, there is going to be some overlap. Some of the PQ teams may win one of these spots in 2004. I am guessing that 30 PQ teams will do well enough in 2004 to qualify as merit-based (MB) teams. So, the total of MB teams who are not PQ teams would be this: 156-30=126

Open qualifiers:
--------------------
AA tier 6 teams
BB tier 5 teams
CC tier 4 teams
DD tier 3 teams
EE tier 2 teams
FF tier 1 teams

It is apparent that FIRST likes limiting the Championships to about 290 teams. Expanding that number, I am assuming, is not an option for the near future. In a perfect world, it would be nice if that number was bigger, but demanding to make that number much bigger is unrealistic.

So... looking at the above numbers, about 220 PQ and MB teams will be going to the 2004 Championships, before FIRST begins with the open qualification process. That leaves about 70 open qualifiers (OQ).

It would be really nice to know how many tier 6, tier 5, tier 4, tier 3, tier 2, tier 1 and PQ5 teams there are. There has gotta be people out there who know these numbers. Anyone?

In the mean time, here are some opinions. My first reaction is that FIRST is giving more awards to "good teams" as opposed to "good robots". This is due to the removal of auto-births for technical awards and the addition of auto-births for Rookie All Stars and EI awards. However... if my assumptions above are true, then 220 "qualifying" teams will go to the Championships along with 70 OQ teams. Of those 220, 96 teams (many of who will qualify in 2 or more ways) are qualifying by being "good teams" and might not have "great robots".

It is apparent to me that there will be a good mix of "good teams" with teams who have "good robots"... at least for 2004. All in all, I like the new system. There are bits that I don't like about it. I still don't like the '92 sustaining teams getting a auto-birth, but that is just my opinion. I do feel that those teams deserve it, but it is my mission as team leader on one of those teams to never depend on that grandfather clause. This rule really does put these grandfather teams in a tough spot, but that is a topic for another thread.

Sorry to be so long, as I yet again broke my concise rule.

Andy B.

Question posed: Why does the fact that some of the awards can't get you a ticket to Nats make them less prestigious?

Are teams going to complain and get angry? "If only we'd won that other award..." ? Because no matter what, you've got a ticket in... it just might not be good for a couple years.

I've seen teams in the past get awards and be excited over them, if only for the point value. It's a little unnerving to think that teams might begrudgingly take the awards presented to them, because they aren't a free chance to compete.

I think I like this system best simply because it gives everyone a chance, and mainly the people I see complaining about who gets a seat are the teams that would normally qualify to go anyway.

Maybe I'm only seeing this because of my tendency to like the non-competitive side of FIRST a lot more than the hard-driven competitive side. I think some people are overreacting to this. It's new, yes; but it's not permanent. Changes will occur, and systems will work themselves out. I'm sure it wasn't smooth sailing when the point system first debuted.

I also understand that a large part of the design process is criticism, but this is getting a little out of hand by some. I'm not asking for everyone to shut up and take the hand that FIRST is giving them, I'm asking for everyone to cut FIRST a little slack and let things smooth over, work out for themselves. Coming on a message board, saying that you don't represent your team, but still slamming FIRST is a little offensive... myself saying 'give FIRST a break, they're trying their hardest' is not.

Thank you Andy.
I have been sitting by for four days watching this tennis match waiting for something positive & FIRST-like to appear. I know from experience that your team and many other of the "grandfathered" teams will earn their way to the Championship Event. For the others that don't earn it, maybe you are just having an off year. If the grandfathers of FIRST haven't earned it in a while, it may be time to circle the wagons.

For those of you that are arguing against them attending, you may be on to something, but just relax, its only a couple of teams.

As for the 2 awards that do get you to the Championship, they are exactly what FIRST is promoting. Chairmans & Engineering Inspiration are great awards that can't just be given to anybody. This keeps teams from getting an award at a regional sponsored by thier team's sponsor just so they can go to the Championship. Nobody likes to see a team win an award they don't deserve just to qualify them.

As for the planning & travel prep, do it ahead of time. You may not be able to buy the tickets and hotel rooms ahead of time, but line them up. Raise the money ahead of time. Last year, we didn't. We won at J&J and I had to tell my team that we couldn't go because we hadn't done any planning for it. If we had planned for it & not won we would be that much farther ahead this year. BTW last year was the first year our team did not attend the Championship in our 4 years. We didn't blame FIRST, we blamed ourselves.

That's my 2 cents.

Its a start!
 

One point that has been made countless times that makes alot of sense to me..."We will not know how it works until it happens." (i.e. Alliances, Autonomous Mode, etc...). One thing is for sure...there is not, and will never be a perfect system. There will be teams who get left out every year, there will be deserving teams who do not get to go. With the growth of FIRST, it is nearly impossible for a perfect system to be created. Fact of the matter is, FIRST is trying the best they can to make something work so the fewest amount of teams get the shaft, while holding onto the integrity of the Championship status that this competition is supposed to uphold. For that to happen, they have to use good ol' trial and error. I applaud FIRST for at least realizing that the old system maybe wasn't the right way to go, and trying something different in hopes that it will work. I have my own intitial guesses and opinions about the criteria...but frankly, I have been wrong about FIRST wayyyyy too many times to pass judgement at this point.

Have fun!
Andy Grady

p.s. To those people who are critical of the auto entry of 1992 teams, take a minute to think about exactly how long you have been in FIRST, then think about how hard it can be to keep comming back with enthusiasm as you get older and more tired. When you have been in the competition for 10, 11, 12 years, it gets harder and harder to find the strength to compete every year...these 6 teams still manage to do it, year in and year out. I do agree with Joseph M. in the fact that "Why just these 6 teams." Heck, if I had it my way, I would give auto entry to teams from 92-94. But, more than anything else, the auto entry of these teams is symbolic...kind of a reminder to teams that yes, you can keep fighting to come back and do it again...these teams have done it for 12 years. Of course, maybe I'm just biased.