Re: GM
 

Thanks For Clearing all this up.. I wish you the best of luck in this upcoming season.

-Greg The Great

HOW UNTRUE and RUDE
 

As another mentor of not only GM/Troy #226 as well as helping with the three other GM Teams that share in the build area I can without a doubt back up the comments made by the Team #68 members. From our Executive Director down to the engineers there has never been some sort of rule or even a mention that the teams must win. This is a volunteer deal, I lose money each and every year supporting the team, be it materials or traveling to events to help out, but I do it because I think it makes a difference.

Would we as engineers and mentors like to win, heck yes, that is the competitive nature of any engineer. These days that's what business is about. This is a competition so simply building a robot and a team for the sole purpose of being in the event is pretty useless. In all of the 4 teams that build at the MFG A Tech center, you will see students machining, drilling assembling and programming.

I am not sure why someone would even start they discussion like this in the first place. If you think GM is such a bad sponsor, tell them that your team is taking a new direction and no longer needs our help, then we can take the resources to another team that not only respects the resources but also appreciates them.

Matt

Re: HOW UNTRUE and RUDE
 

I was wondering the same thing. I also thought it was strange that he generalized his experience to include all GM teams. This is one of those thoughts you should keep in your head and either change it, or quit. I see nothing to be gained through posting threads like these.

Like most of the other posters in this thread, I speak for myself and in NO WAY do I represent any other members of 818 or other GM-sponsored teams.

To the best of my knowledge, we've never had GM interfere with our team. We haven't had them dictate our strategy or design our robot, nor have we been told that we have to win. There is only one GM employee that I can think of who, from what I have observed, has been somewhat miffed that we didn't win anything last year. Other than that one person, I can't think of anyone who's been upset that we haven't won any of the major awards yet.

GM supports us, and we support them in turn, showing up at events when requested. Admittedly, our team hasn't been nearly as successful as T3, 67, 226, or some of the other GM-sponsored teams we've become friends with. As far as I can tell, though, GM doesn't care about that. We build a robot, and we try our hardest to win while forwarding the goals of FIRST.

It's unfortunate that you feel that way about your team, David, but yours may be an exception. I haven't heard any of the GM-sponsored teams in my area complain about their sponsorship.

Remember: think before you speak. If you've got a problem with your sponsor, talk to your team leaders. Complaining about this publically is most definitely NOT a form of gracious professionalism.

uninformed garbage
 

I have to tell you, ~David, that you are wrong. You may have had some experiences that didn't sit right with you, but to generalize as you have reflects the following:

1. You have no clue. Do you know how many GM teams there are? Do you have any idea that the spectrum of GM teams runs from "casual" to "just have fun, who cares about winning" to "the students do all the work" to "lets build a competitive robot" to "lets show 'em what the best student/engineer-built teams can do." There are many GM teams (20+ I think? I lost count). Some you have heard of a lot. Some you have never heard of. Thats because they reflect the spectrum of all types of teams - from all sponsors in FIRST.

2. Your facts are wrong. There is no direction from the top as to how GM teams are run. Local decisions by team members are what makes the teams run. This is a big company, and in my 7 years of experience they respect the rights of teams to do their own thing.

All of the supposedly "big time" GM teams that I know put significant effort into giving their students a good technical experience with a high level of involvement. I would challenge you to come into my shop and exceed what experienced students on my team know about brainstorming, designing, machining, building, testing, rebuilding, practicing, scouting ... ok I'll stop now.

3. Your figures are wrong. The amount of money that GM-sponsored teams get is all over the map. Some get a little, some get more. Some sponsorship money is locally given, and the people on top probably don't even know its being given. In my experience the funding is given without significant direction from the top about how a team is run.

All of the supposedly "well-funded" GM teams that I know do significant amounts of their own fundraising. I would stack our average number up against other teams any day.

I once asked a GM vice president for a lot of money to support things related solely to FIRST. He asked me one question: "Are the students getting a good experience for this money?" Then he approved the money. I have to tell you that EVERY GM executive I've ever talked to about FIRST (and I've talked to a lot of 'em) has had an attitude similar to this. I am proud of the way GM people support students involved in FIRST.

4. Your assumptions are wrong. You assume that GM has as a primary motive the promotion of their name. If that was the case, don't you think GM would force teams to have the GM name prominently featured in their team names? Theres a whole bunch of "GM" teams out there where you have to look hard to know that its a GM-sponsored team because a bunch of other sponsors are featured also. Some sponsors require a team to list them first; we don't even come close to this.

5. You intentions are wrong. I admit that I don't know what all of your intentions are. But your approach (hiding your identity, making up a derogatory screen name, posting things that are not true) stinks of just trying to hurt someone else rather than trying to make things better.

I hope, if you are still involved in FIRST, that you talk to someone you trust about how your team is run, and try to figure out a way to improve things. Because in the end, thats what everyone who cares about FIRST's goals would do. If you are interested in IMPROVING things on your team, and you don't feel you have anyone to turn to, please feel free to email me at kenneth.patton@gm.com. I'll try to help.

If you aren't interested in improving things, my suggestion would be for you to just go away.

Ken

Greg, Andy, Ken, and all you guys thanks for posting and saying what I couldn't say. In High School, I was on a UTC team specifically sponsored by Pratt and Whitney (GO S.P.A.M.!). And let me tell you, I'd trade sponsors with you anytime... except maybe now cause that means I'd also lose my school ;). Anyway, I remember talking to you guys and finding out all the things you had. Let me tell you that year in 2000 for that season.... we had to pack up and move 3 times that build season. That put us back at least 6 days and as Warren, RIshan, G-man, Ares, and I figured at the end of the season, probably more. We had to find a new home every time. Thank goodness we had people in the community who were willing to donate their available space. We built our bot wth drill presses, dremel, band saws, hack saws, pretty much the typical tools you get out of a hardware store and a little machining help from Pratt. A lot of it was by hand. Things including a lift system probably would have worked if we had the time that we lost and perhaps some of the machine time acess you had. Yes, Pratt & Whitney is good to us on 180. And I thank them for that. They continually give us monatary support though it varies from year to year, it is there. And in some ways they've made us better by not giving us everything. We've had to raise more funds, go find more sponsors, esentially better promote the ideals of FIRST in an outreach to the community while looking for support. And Pratt gave us in my opinion, some of the best mentors in FIRST. They're still there on 180 even though they're working for like Perry Technologies, Belcan, etc.. now and are still showing up and some of them don't even have kids that participate on the team. So don't come around complainng about it.... remember teams like the "little robot that could" team (from NY I believe). Trust me, they'd trade with you anytime.