Hey FIRST - We're going to need a lot more regionals!
 

Have you noticed how fast the regionals are filling up this year?

I think this is due to the need to win a regional to get into the Championship. Of course, many teams usually go to multiple regionals anyway. But it seems that more teams than usual are signing up for multiple regionals. And next year when so few teams are pre-qualified, just watch the regionals fill up even faster!

I think there will be a lot more teams that will want to sign up for 3 regionals, especially next year. We will need a lot more regionals or FIRST will have to limit the number of regionals a team can attend, to maybe 2. Let's see what happens on Nov 14 when registration opens up to a third regional. This may be the first year that all regionals are filled to capacity. If not this year, then next year for sure, unless we get a lot more regionals. I say we need at least 6 more regionals next year.

This new Championship eligibility criteria might be just what FIRST needed to increase the demand for regionals even more, thus exposing more cities and thus growing even faster. What do you think?

Of course, this would all mean that more teams will have to make last minute travel arrangements, but that is for a different thread.

Raul

I'm not sure you exactly need MORE regionals, just bigger venues for current regionals. for example, the J&J Mid-Atlantic Regional has moved this year from Rutgers University to the Sovereign Bank Arena. This allows for more teams to work harder at one regional, because your chances for alliances are smaller with more teams. I think larger regionals might inspire teams to work harder for a better bot than to create new regionals, thus shrinking the competition.

just my two or three cents.

YSara

I think FIRST is planning a big push for regionals in 2005. One of the main components of forming a regional in the past has been having enough local teams to support the regional. Given the fact that many more teams are attending multiple regionals in the past few years, I think FIRST is letting up on this requirement. I have no direct evidence for this but based on Rochester and Brazil I find it to be a likely occurrance. So I expect to see quite a few new regionals next year (come to Rochester anyway!).

Matt

One of the main concerns with regionals is MONEY. The local area must come up with the funds to support their regional. As you know it is becoming tougher to raise support for each team. Just think how tough it is to raise $200,000.00 US dollars for each regional. Growth is great but it has its problems. We must all be there to support FIRST the best we can.

I believe there was a discussion a few weeks ago about "Mega-regionals" in FIRST. This could be the answer to said problem. You can already see how these "Mega-regionals" could easily fall into place, with various regionals upgrading to bigger venues or accomodating for more teams. Ex. the New Jersey Regional now will take place at the Sovereign Bank Arena and the Chesapeake Regional has accomodated for 54 teams this year. Could these "Mega-regionals" be the answer?

The Sovereign Bank Arena may not be a long term site, JNJ regional HAD to move because Rugers university didn't won't to give up their new basketball arena to FIRST in 2004. Rugers is hoping for a NCAA spot in 2004.
I wouldn't be surprise if JNJ Regional move again in 2005. Sovereign Bank Arena is a very expensive site to rent and it is in a "not so nice" area of town. (and this is coming from a Brooklyn person!)
:rolleyes:

Mega Regionals
 

It looks like we could use a Mega Regional in the east. There are only a few spots left at the now bigger Chesapeake Regional (6/54). the already HUGE Canadian Regional (3/78), or the St. Louis Regional (3/46). The only "open" regional is the Pittsburgh Regional that has 18 of their 43 spots still there. There are lots of openings out west where many regionals still haven't filled up. The biggest problem I see is finding a space large enough to host these competitions that isn't allready hosting the NCAA tourney.

Should there be another regional in New England this year? I know I could use one...

My backyard is always open, it could hold a field and you can have the pits on my street. Oconomowoc would welcome you with open arms. :cool:

Re: Mega Regionals
 

so are you saying you DONT want Rutgers to do well in basketball just so you can use their stadium? ;)

wouldn't it be nicer to move to bigger and better venues? i'm quite excited that J&J is going to be at sovereign bank, even if it IS only temporary. Just think, maybe they can host a competition at the Tweeter Center or the Continental Airlines Arena.

Re: Hey FIRST - We're going to need a lot more regionals!
 

The main problem I have with that, is if you think about it... your robot really isn't used much as it is. Unfortunatly, unless you attend many offseason competitions (which there is only one close enough for our team to attend each year), your robot only gets probably less than an hour or two of actual gameplay each year. To limit your regionals even more would be worse, ESPECIALLY since teams need to win to go to the "Championship" With what Sara was saying, I don't really know if I agree with simply making the regionals bigger, all that's going to do is give you even FEWER matches, what happens if your robot breaks and your out 2 rounds? If you have 6 qualifying matches that'll kill you, whereas if you have 10, your chances are a little bit better. I'm really thinking that after all of the things happening this year (I'm just not worrying about Megaregionals yet until everything's official) teams aren't going to really have much will to go to the Championship and are just going to stop even fundraising for it, that's what we have done already. I really think that there isn't much that's going to fix this since there are so many teams in the league, up north I really see offseason competitions being the main "fix" for all of these problems, but down here, there are so few offseason competitions. 1083 hosted "Robot Rodeo" this year, which invited everyone in Florida, and only 16 teams showed up, a few didn't come, but for the most part there just aren't enough teams down here to keep a nice flow of having multiple offseason competitions going. I think we need to try to look more past what FIRST can do, because they're hitting a threshold, they have an exponential growth of teams, and still have the same people for the most part working at FIRST trying to handle it all, so I think the solution (whatever it may be) comes down to what teams themselves want to coordinate, and we just need to work on that... I think offseasons are a near-perfect way to start. Just my 2 cents.

I definitely agree. My team was thinking about doing three regionals this year, but it looks like that won't happen. We weren't able to get registered for Midwest Regional, which was a first, as it usually doesn't fill quite as fast. Now, every regional in the Midwest, with the exception of Pittsburgh (18 spots) and St. Louis (2 spots) is full, and those two conflict with Great Lakes. I know I've heard many people complain that "the Midwest doesn't need another regional," and while yes, we do have a lot here already, we're going to need more or bigger regionals just as much as anyplace else. It's a universal problem that FIRST is going to need to solve.

My solution: keep the number of basic regionals about the same, and add four or five "mega-regionals" like we've been discussing. Make it so they don't conflict with the regular regionals (say, put them all in week 5) if possible, so everybody gets a shot at going to one. Doing this will take some of the pressure off of the regional events, and will also give a fun, large event for those who can't attend the Championship.

That sounds like a really good idea, especially with the number of teams that are dissapointed about the new championship qualification standards. You would need to see to it, though, that the mega-regionals are spread out evenly and fairly.

Re: Re: Mega Regionals
 

I HOPE RUTGERS DO WELL!:D

JNJ at the Continental Arena would be great! You definitely can run a Mega-Regional there.
:)
(and think of the tailgate party we can have in the parking lot too)

Re: Re: Re: Mega Regionals
 

The New Jersey Regional at the Continental Airlines Arena would be amazing. That is definitely the New Jersey venue suitable for a Mega-Regional.

my only concern is if these mega regionals take place so close to championships are teams still going to have the funds to attend the championship competition?

and before we get all excited about the continental airlines arena, we should probably look into costs for renting it for the competition days...i bet it's more money than sovereign bank (and just about any other arena)

Last time I checked NJ wasn't very close to Atlanta.
There are enough regional events, as it is they have 6 going on a single weekend. Aside from just the running event costs, FIRST also has the costs of making another field then, and then the cost to fly out a head ref/staff. Some venues just aren't being used to thier full potential and thats what should be fixed first before adding more regionals. You also can't forget that sometimes teams end up dropping regionals due to lack of funding or a plan changed, etc.. So most of the full regionals will end up having a few spots turn over that you can get into if you really want to go to that event.

I was referring to close in regards to TIME. Jeff had suggested having these mega-regionals around week 5

There is alot more things to consider about using an arena other than cost. FIRST would need to tie up an arena for 5 to 6 days (at least). I don't know the schedule for the continental area that well but I would bet there would be something else going on in that space during that time. I believe they built it for a pro basketball team that would probably want to play there. Not to mention college tourney's during March. It's tough month to get big arenas. Not to mention the NHL. Mybe next year when the NHL goes bankrupt we can get some of their arena's cheap. You can't have icecapades (sp?) every weekend.

BTW. I'm an Orangemen fan I could care less about the Scarlet Knights - go 'cuse.
BTW 2 - I'm a Devils fan so I don't want to see the NHL go under.

Re: Re: Re: Mega Regionals
 

While Continental would be nice don't dismiss the Sovereign Bank Arena just yet. Believe me- it is what we need in NJ.

A few points-

- the name of the event is now the NJ FIRST Regional. J&J expressed their interest in this renaming and Mid Atlantic is no longer appropriate. J&J is still the events biggest supporter so don't worry. Check out www.njfirst.org for details.

- the Sovereign is twice as large at the RAC from last year. It can hold enough teams to make a mega regional if necessary. And the event coordinators are happy to accomodate FIRST

- the Sovereign is centrally located for the state. It is in an area of the state that could use more FIRST teams and hopefully will stimulate local interest. There is already a regional in NYC right across the river from the Continental.

- look at the list of rookie teams signed up for the NJ event. Expect big things in NJ this year. FIRST is exploding here. RINOS is supporting it. 50x05 is the goal- and will probably be surpassed.

Watch NJ to set the tone for the season this year.

WC

:cool:

Personally I would love to see Boston have a Mega Regional as it is the epicenter of the power of the NorthEast teams. I would say it is at most a 2 hour drive away from all the Northeast teams (for a few maybe more). Also there are three possible venues in Boston.
1. Fleetcenter (most expensive)
2. Bayside Expo Center
3. Convention Center they are building for the Democratic Election

Please FIRST listen to me and make this happen!!!!!!!!

Just supposing...

If we were having Mega-Regionals, where would the best places to hold them be?

-Michigan (home of many FIRST teams; could easily function as a Midwest MR)
-California (the state with the most teams, West Coast MR)
-Boston (East Coast regional?)
-Atlanta (Southern regional? Not necessarily the best location, but it's cheaper to get to than Florida for most teams)
-Texas (possible Southwest regional?)

I'm not sure if this post served any purpose...I just wanted to figure out the potential locations. Feel free to rip this list to shreds and suggest better choices. :)

ALL the above!
(your post served to maintain communications among the FIRST community and gives me something to read until the Kickoff!)
;)

I'll make Boston happen... :D

Don't forget the Canadian (Super) Regional. Already 78 teams / 2 fields.

I believe the exact number is five days. FIRST begins setup on the Tuesday before a regional and is out Saturday night. Or so we've been told...

Matt

Yes. We will :D and it will happen sometime in the near future hopefully, :D

<goes back to writing on paper ;) and looks for Dean Soyster to hand paper to ;)>

5 days has been accurate by my experience for the past two years.

I believe FIRST is going to to reduce it down to 4 days this year. Starting setup on Wednesday, and clean up and ready to go on Saturday. That way each regional save the money it takes to get the venue + staff for Tuesday.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mega Regionals
 

see this link for my plans for NJ Rookie Teams (though this will not be until 2006-07).

I have already discussed it with the program coordinator and all lights are green

:cool: ps- check out my new custom cd title :)

You guys have it all backward.

Mega-regionals are NOT the wave of the future. As it is, the existing regional competitions are:
- very expensive for corporations to sponsor,
- very expensive for the teams to attend,
- very difficult for the FIRST staff to organize,
- very difficult to find appropriate venues,
- almost impossible to staff with judges,
- almost impossible to staff with volunteers,
- require a major (and not yet sufficient) effort to get everyone trained,
- generate big headaches when arranging the production and top-level quality of the event, and
- require significant increases in the distributed FIRST staff of Regional Coordinators to manage.

Why in the world would anyone support something that takes each of these traits, and exacerbates them? Mega-regionals are not the way to go, and should not happen. Things need to move the other direction - toward "Mini-regionals" (aka "district competitions")!

Mini-Regionals are:
- limited to no more than 20 teams
- cost-capped at a maximum of $500 per team to attend
- designed to physically fit in a high-school gym/basketball court (including play field, pits, and audience)
- organized and produced entirely by a local committee
- require no participation by FIRST Manchester staff
- have a limited award structure, so no more than five (5) judges are needed
- audio-only (i.e. require only audio amplification),
- do not have large-screen projection video systems,
- without a formal "team social" event, unless one is organized by the teams
- designed to be set up in one day or less, and
- distributed all around the country - not just in a few locations that require expensive travel arrangements.

In other words, these are relatively small, simple, low-cost events that are easier and cheaper to produce and attend. Think of them as similar to many of the off-season competitions staged by teams, but incorporated as part of the formal competition structure supported by FIRST. Accordingly, many more of them can be conducted during a competition season. On any given weekend, there could be one or two DOZEN Mini-Regionals going on, instead of just two or three regional competitions.

If done in sufficient numbers, there could be a Mini-Regional competition within one or two hours drive for every team in the country. The competition schedule would be arranged so that a team must attend a Mini-Regional before attending a Regional competition. Almost every team could have the option of attending multiple Mini-Regionals at a total cost that is only a fraction of the cost to register for a single Regional Competition. The Mini-Regionals might not have the flash and polish of the Regional Competitions, but that it compensated for by the fact that teams can afford to do multiple Mini-Regionals. The competition, and the competitiveness, are the same. And I might dare say that the ambiance of these smaller, more intimate events could bring us back to the infectious spirit of cooperative competitiveness that perfused the early days of FIRST (and which many feel is somewhat diminished in many of the current events).

This whole thread started with an incorrect assumption about the need to win at a regional to get to the Championships, and a derived need for more events to allow more "winners." While the logic is wrong, the conclusion - there should be more competition events - is correct. But this must be combined with the oft-heard refrain from the teams and sponsors that "the competitions are too expensive!" Put these two together, and you end up with just one result. We have to make more INEXPENSIVE events available. Mini-Regionals are the way to go; Mega-Regionals are monolithic money-pits that we and FIRST cannot afford.

-dave

I understand your point Dave, many people mistook my thread over the summer:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...nd+for+FIRS t

although I wrote it with the exact intent you are presenting now... it's rarely the solution that's incorrect, it's the problem.

Dave,
I can see where you could get the impression that I was saying that we need more regionals in order to get more winners into the Championship. But that was not my intent. I was trying to point out that given the rules FIRST has now, it encourages teams to go to as many regionals as possible to increase their chances of winning and getting in.

Anyway, I agree with your solution, which may also help make my prediction wrong about "How big FIRST will ever get".

Can you elaborate on your vision for these mini-regionals and their relationship to the regular regionals? Do you need to do well in the mini regionals in order to get into the regular ones? Or would they just be practice-like in preparation for the only regular regional you are allowed to attend?

Raul

Dave,

Thanks for saying what I've been thinking for a couple of years. Even if I had said it, nobody would have listened anyway, from somebody of your stature in the FIRST community maybe they will.

The Academy of Model Aeronautics has used a similar structure for many years. AMA Contests are run by Contest Directors who have to demonstrate competence and familiarity with the rules of the contest they are running. All the rest of the organizing is done at the local level by local clubs. The Contest Directors get one minor consideration in return for their efforts, they get half off on next year's AMA dues (currently $56). They are vastly underpaid.

So how well does this work? Here in the greater LA area there are currently 6 major fields that can support a model soaring competition. Entry fees are modest, around $10. Yet expenses are even lower and there is a soaring contest at one field or another just about every weekend. That is just the "sanctioned" events with official CDs. Just about all the local clubs also have unsanctioned events they don't even bother to publish outside the club newsletter. I use model soaring because that is the community I am personally familiar with, but there are all kinds of other disciplines within model aviation that have a similar structure.

There are also other sports like cycling that do much the same thing. USCF (United States Cycling Federation) clubs MUST sponsor at least one race a year or loose their status with the national organization. Here in Southern California there is at least one race every weekend from May to October.

Rarely does anyone from either national organization attend one of these local events.

By reducing the cost and de-emphasizing official FIRST participation, by going to more of an "off-season" type structure, we can dramatically increase the number of teams that participate and therefore our chances of achieving our real goal ... transforming the culture.

Personally, I'd rather have a five or six competition season (maybe with an "everyone drives rule" a la AYSO) for nearly the same cost of one competition now. If most teams were willing to host a small competition in their local area this could easily be done in places where there is a fairly large concentration of teams.

Finally, I don't know about you, but after seven years on a team, I am rather fundraised-out. I'd rather just write a check for the cost of my son's participation. But I realize that for many deserving youth this just isn't possible. This is especially true in the communities where FIRST is most needed. I have also been involved in trying to recruit new rookie teams. The current cost is a major obstacle. Just the numbers are enough to scare many science and math teachers away. If I wasn't personally convinced of the worth of the program I wouldn't bother myself.

Here in North Alabama, many schools are participating in a program called BEST (http://www.bestinc.org/). BEST is similar to FIRST in that students build a robot in six weeks, work with sponsors, try to mentor other teams, etc. except the competition is much smaller and resembles one of the "mini-regionals" you mentioned. Have you ever attended a BEST event? There's one coming up in Auburn, AL in two weeks. I guarantee you that if you attended it you would scrap the "mini-regional" idea instantly.

A team from my school participated in the program this year and I tagged along for the competition. It was terrible! None of the judges or field personnel had any experience (they were "local volunteers") and there was basically mass chaos.

It's no coincidence that FIRST has trained staff members at every regional event. It is simply 100% necessary to make things work!

Not to mention that the most exciting part of the FIRST experience is the competitions! The lights, the sound, THE PEOPLE ... it's incredible! FIRST has established their position as THE PREMIER high school robotics competition because the exciting atmosphere of the competitions rewards students for hard work. You want to water that down to a small game in a high school gym? WITH FEWER AWARDS? I don't know many kids that would be willing to work their asses off for six weeks just to go play in a gym somewhere (Proof: There were only ~6 people on my school's BEST team as compared with our FIRST team of ~50).

While I do agree that cost saving measures can and should be implemented for regional events, it would be a disaster for FIRST to make any drastic change that would rob the regionals of the elements that keep FIRST ahead of its competition.

Yes, I have attended a BEST event. I have also been to the BOTBALL competitions (regional and national), the International Joint Conference on Artificial Intelligence robotics competitions, the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence mobile robotics competition and exhibitions, and nearly a dozen others. I have been a judge at many of these events, a technical adviser to some others, am on the board of directors of two competition organizations, and have provided significant financial support for several of them. So I have some insight into how good - and bad - competition events are organized.

I am not sure that I follow the logic path from you seeing a single poorly-run BEST competition (out of the several BEST events that are run around the country) to the conclusion that all small events are terrible and the idea of mini-competitions should be scrapped.

I have re-read my post a few times now. I am pretty sure that nowhere in there did I say that a low-cost event had to be a low-quality event. To the contrary, I made a distinct analogy between the Mini-Regional concept and the better off-season, team-sponsored events that are currently held. Many of them are conducted in an extremely professional manner, have a very polished presentation, provide a wonderfully positive and supportive atmosphere, provide for high levels of competition, and do a great job to further the goals and message of FIRST. They provide the existence proof that, done properly, a small event with a small number of teams can be produced for a reasonable amount of funds and effort, and it can still have a very positive outcome. FIRST Lego League events - many of which are held in school gyms - do exactly the same thing.

So while it is possible to produce a bad competition event in a small venue (of course this is true, and I never said it wasn't), it is also possible to produce a very good one. Done properly, Mini-Regionals can work - things like Ramp Riot, Duel on the Delaware, Havoc on the Hill, California Robot Games and FLL prove it.

-dave

Very interesting idea, Dave. I think a lot of off season folks are thinking the same thing. How do you imagine it would work? Will the mini-regionals be hosted at high school gyms? Community college gyms?

Here are my thoughts on this whole idea:

There should be some sort of standards on how the mini-regionals is all around the country, just like how FIRST have the same A/V plan for all 20+ regionals. They don't have to be super fancy or anything, but each of them should provide some consistence for all teams.

In terms of money wise, you can have a relatively low cost event with about 15k to 30K. 20 teams X $500 is already $10,000. Some lower level sponsorship should cover the rest of the cost. The important costs to think about are carpets, floor protection, and A/V equipment. For Cal Games, a lot of the A/V equipments like projectors and camera are borrowed from WRRF folks, and projection screens we rent with a relatively low rate. The carpets cost about $0.50 per square foot, so brand new carpets to cover a whole gym of about 5,000 square ft will cost $2500, providing there are tarps covering the rest of the gym. The rest of expense is just getting the field there, banners and signage, volunteer food, insurance, and custodian. But compare to a regional that cost $170,000 per 50 teams, $30,000 per 24 teams much cheaper.

My concern is how to keep the event at a high school for 4 days without causing major disruption to their PE class. I suppose they can do outdoor sports at the football field or soccer field. Also, is February and March sports season for high school?

Another thing that has to be done is, if these are to be standard events around the whole country, lots of contracts have to be signed with the high schools/community college way before hand to make sure the dates are set aside for the competitions. These will be the responsibility of the regional committees to take care of.

Finally, the events have to be staffed with a field manager, a head ref/head inspector, and score keeper, and an MC. There will need to be about 30 volunteers too. Here is what I suggest. Take bay area, for example, we are definitely more than 20 teams around here, and will need multiple mini-regional. The teams not competing at a mini-regional can go to another one to be volunteers. It will be a great experience for the students/teachers, plus a chance to earn community service.


Will FIRST be willing to let regional committees take care of these mini-regionals and only worry about standard regionals and CE? I suppose time will tell. Right now, FIRST make sure every regional have at least 2 staff from them to run the events. Maybe it's time for the regional committees to grow their own crew for regionals.


Definitely worth thinking over. It could potentially be very chaotic if there are lots of mini-regionals happening. But not impossible.

Well Dave, let me first apoligize if I seemed offensive for my post. I didn't mean to flame other robot organizations! (I need to learn to stop posting to forums when I'm in a bad mood!)

The point that I was trying to make is that from a high schooler's standpoint (and that of most high schoolers I know), I will always put forth more effort to try to win competitions that appear to have more prestiege. For years our school was invited to programming competitions held by the Alabama Council for Technology in Education, but had trouble getting anyone interested in attendance -- because they knew that there would be little to no competition at the event and it just wouldn't be worth the time. However, when the University of Alabama launched a similar competition with hundreds of participants and full scholarships to the winners .... we got TONS of interest from high schoolers (I even won a digital camera and $1,000 scholarship!).

If FIRST can make a smaller event seem prestigious (I suppose they could), more power to them! I just will always favor the current (big and exciting) atmosphere that the regionals provide.

I fully understand that the expense of regional events is preventing FIRST from growing at the rates it would like, however at least my opinion is that that quality should prevail over quantity any day.

I agree 5000% the bigger events are more fun. Paul Kloberg actually told me this after Final Bin Bash. He said that FIRST was a girls' sport because it was about socializing. It's about getting out there and meeting people and learning things, and yes, you can learn and do great things at mini-regionals, but so much less overall.

Interesting though... I was reading throught the teams registered one regional had 79, one had 63, three had above 50, but there is one out in CA that only has 19 teams...

In my 5 years of FIRST experience, I thought IRI was THE BEST competition I've ever been to, even more fun than any regionals I've ever participated and volunteered at. That event didn't cost 170k like a normal regional, and yet it was a far better experience for me.

So, I believe a big part of it is in the people who run the event, and the spirit of the participating teams. Of course it's still nice to have all the A/V equipment and professional video production, but I think it's been proven that they are not necessary for inspiration and excitment.

I have no doubt that there will always be several extremely successful small events across the country. You're correct in saying that it completely depends on the people there.

If FIRST were to decide to implement small events in which dozens were being held at any given time .... there would be no concentration of bright and fun people at any given event -- they would be spread out even more greatly than they currently are.