Christmas and Schools
 

We all know (I hope) that our government seperates religion from schools. The problem is, in this society which is mostly Christian dominated, it is very easy for many people to realize that, Hey that's religious! At our high school last year, someone put up a pine tree and there was a fiasco about it, and it's hard not to in this overly-liberal town. If you look at BBC news online right now, there's an article about how Christmas in America is a subtle yet dangerous issue.

Today, Christmas day, my 7-year old sister started singing the 12 days of Christmas. I wondered where she learned it and she said - from school. From her music teacher. At school.

After today, when I get back home from Ohio (where I'm right now), I will send an email to the principal of her school (who used to be the vice principal of my middle school a while back), and kindly ask them to seriously rethink what they're doing. Personally, I have no problems with what my sister is learning. It's a song that has almost no religious importance anymore (like Christmas), but nonetheless it is still religious and being taught in schools. If one thing is allowed, then more boundaries will end up being pushed. I would much less mind Christmas decorations at high school because we are at an age where we can think for ourselves (though not always). However, in elementary school, the kids are much too young and impressionable to the words of their adult teachers.

I wonder, what do people feel in general about keeping religion and school seperate during these major holiday seasons?

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

I guess I dont see why you think the 12 days of christmas is a religious song- its only about giving gifts at the traditional holiday period -its says nothing about Jesus or religion

Christmas is a pagan holiday (the winter soltice) that was, well... confiscated by the roman catholic church. If you research it a little you will discover that the church actually frowned on the celebration of christmas for longer than they have accepted it (because of its pagan roots)

its only been in the last 100 years or so that it was commercialized, that it became more or less ok with the church as well.

but I have gotten off the subject. The best research indicates that Jesus was actually born in late september (based on the birth of John the Baptist and his fathers duties as a temple priest, and other events related in the biblical account).

but the thing that I find curious, you say you think your sisters school hasnt really done anything wrong, but you are going to give the principle a good talking to. I dont understand that. Im sure he is quite aware of the sensitive nature of the christmas holiday

i mean winter holiday

no wait, I mean the winter soltice observation break (which happens to coincide with the relgious observations of at least 3 cultural groups now).

now that I think of it, almost every culture had some sort of mid winter or winter soltice holiday, from the myans to the druids.

Personally I would prefer it if the christians threw in the towel on christmas - let it remain a time for santa claus, and observe the birth of Jesus when our best information shows it actaully occured, around the end of september.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

So once again I must come out of my posting slumber because I can't resist political discourse (even on Christmas). My ideal path would be to be a Constitutional lawyer but remember I'm not one yet so this just my brief analysis from what I've learned thus far in political science and at a law forum in DC I went to, where our main case was actually sepearation of church and state in high school.

So first you look at the first amendment and the establishment clause in particular and it's pretty vague. No help there so you go to current court cases and presently the legal standard for seperation of church and state is the Lemon Test (from Lemon v. Kurtzman). Basically it outlines this criteria:

(i) a statute [or public policy] must have a secular legislative purpose

(ii) the principal effect of of the statute [or policy] must neither advance nor inhibit religion

(iii) the statute [or policy] must not foster "excessive [government] entanglement with religion"

So basically for a public school's actions to be deemed consitutional, they have two options: All or nothing. They can't just celebrate one holiday (with decorations, songs, parties) even if the majority of the students are of one religion because that would be advancing one religion. The school must either decide whether they not do any single holiday festivities or promote learning about various ones. Learning them all would therefore make it have a secular purpose because you're learning about the world and it's religions, basically like a History class.

That's the legal standpoint and for my personal view I would go with the "all" option. Teach and celebrate Christmas but also cover Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and other religious holidays that may be celebrated by students at a school. That's the point of school right? Sure you learn the basics out of a book but why not teach students skills to do with the outside world, like FIRST does with technology. Think about it; what's the source of so many problems in today's world, the source of hate? It's ignorance. If you can start exposing kids to different beliefs and fostering acceptance of different people's cultures from a young age (c'mon, in elementary school you have time to teach this stuff since there are no AP tests or finals) then I think we'll be setting kids on the right path. Ignoring differences by keeping them out of school won't help anything.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

Very true Kristina but the schools don't do that. Holidays are mentioned but obviously not all of them can or are covered. And if they were to cover the roots/history of Christmas or some religious holiday, it'd be ok. However, elementary schools don't cover that history. Instead, the activities seem to lean towards one religion. I found out that my sister's class had to bring in tiny little presents for "Secret Santa". Sure, the presents were small (less than dollar store items), but nowhere on the teacher's notice for the event was an option to not bring something due to either financial problems or unwillingness to participate in the Christmas-related event.

Also, the mention of "Christmas" in the song the 12 days of Christmas is not kosher in Ithaca schools (or at the least the high school). As I mentioned, this is an overly-liberal town, and if some employee at the high school said merry christmas or put up a decoration/poster/etc in the hallway, there would be hell to pay. In fact, that happened before and that employee was almost fired last year.

Ken, there seemed to be some bitterness in your argument. I'm not trying to offend. One thing I wanted to mention was that in my Chinese family, we don't actually have a holiday during this time. The only reason we have a Christmas tree and get presents is to entertain my sister, who, from her schooling and society, has come to expect that Christmas is for everyone. I really don't care. My parents care more about Chinese New Year, which is in late January this year - in fact, during my regents testing week. And that is not a break from anything. So if the schools wished to have a true holiday to cover all the holidays, then it should go at least all the way to the last week of January. Our Chinese new year is possibly the biggest in the world (or 2nd to Indian holidays, since their population is also excessively large, and the Jan 1st New Year) and most celebrated. And no, Ken, I don't plan on yelling at the principal as you seemed to suggest. I said I'd be sending him a kind email asking him whether such curriculum is considerate of the various cultures represented by all the students.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

The main problem is that our government is not even listening to themselves.

FOX News Report
So, obviously, it is Christianity, not religions in general, that our government dosn't want anyone to know about.

http://www.afa.net/journal/july/religiousfreedom10.asp

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

Let's bring a Canadian perspective to this...

In Canada, (the spirit of) our constitution would say that if there is sufficient demand, it is justifiable for such things to occur. For example, provincial governments will get in deep trouble if they don't cater to their francophone constitutents with schools and other government institutions if there are 'enough' French-speaking people; this is actually a constitutional law issue in Canada.

Whether or not I agree with this policy is another, more complex issue, but let me offer this: The large Catholic School Board in Toronto (and elsewhere too) gets enough government funding to be basically a public school system. My school has a large population of non-Christians however in a recent 'holiday' performance I noticed a lot of things that relate to this issue. One thing that really stood out is how a Christian extracurricular club could say 'God did this and this', whereas other religions had to say, 'it is our belief that, God did this and this...' like they're wrong or something. It's subtle, but definitely annoying. We had a yearbook cover rejected by the principal because it had (humorous) depictions of evolution, which I pointed out is recognized by most Christian institutions and even the Catholic School Board.

My point? I find it annoying that we now see it being the 'holiday season' rather than the Christmas Holidays. It's Christmas, come on! Christmas is a government holiday because of the amount of Christians who celebrate it here. The Ontario Education Act even explicitly tells teachers to practice "Judeo-Christian morality" mainly because of demand. As was mentioned earlier, you must be completely exclusive of religion, or completely inclusive. Just about every multicultural school board I know of is somewhere in between (an exception being France) and is pretending the former, so that I think is what causes this discomfort. I think if more people realized the school board's and government's policies and the thinking behind them, they would mind less. That's why I don't mind the Christmas Holidays.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

One of my friends, and a fellow FIRSTer, once told me that the person who can argue best knows all sides of the argument.

So, here I am. Baptized Catholic, attended 8 years of catholic schools, and an equivalent amount of non-denominational institutions (from day-care to now in my junior year of highschool), was raised with Quaker/Friends influences, have attended 17 different schools, and am now what some would call an atheist.

Christmas Break, Holiday Break, or my personal favorite as my Chem class has come to call it, Late Semester Break, is not all about religion, boycotting religion, or whatever it may seem to be. In my opinion, it is better to embrace all religions and beliefs, than to boycott all. What better way is there to learn about other cultures than to expierience this break in America!

In Catholic school, we learnt about all religions. In fact, most of our education during one semester a year is about other religions. I am now educated on Hindu, Chinese, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and many other beliefs. Now, let me ask any of my classmates at the public high school I attend this year to explain what the eight-fold belief of Confucianism is. Or where is Mecca, and why it is there. Or why was Catholicism persecuted in it's early years. Or why were any of these religions began, were embraced, and fight eachother now. I have no need to doubt what they would say. Most cannot answer past their own denomination. So what does that say about America, and you people who dislike the integration? Not much positive.

So, before you begin to give the principal something to dread when he or she returns from a relaxing break, or before you frown at the red and green decor, the lighted Christmas trees, or jump to conclusions when your little sister or brother begins to sing a Christmas song, realize that the doer of that action you detest is more cultured than you are.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

I attend a CHristian University and they were told by the city that the nativity scene could not be displayed on their property. It was in an area that could be seen from the main road through town. I unfortunatly do not know the details becasue this occured a few years before I started attending.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

::crosses Ithaca off of places to visit::

::shudders:: Liberals :rolleyes:

Anyways, the issue w/ either going all the way or not doing it at all is almost never followed in public schools. That's just the way it is. It's nearly impossible for a school to incorporate ALL the religious holidays celebrated, so I guess we just go with what's celebrated most in the United States. I don't see how an e-mail to your sister's school would really do anything, because even though he may agree with you do you really thing he is going to take the time to make sure that every teacher is politically correct during the holidays?? But do whatever makes you feel like you've done something.

My (probably un-needed) 2 cents :cool:

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

I'll leave the First Amendment argument out of this because it's entirely based on a person's subjective interpretation of the Establishment Clause, as Kristina pointed out.

I wasn't planning on replying to this thread at all, but your second statement, that "it is Christianity, not religions in general, that our government doesn't want anyone to know about," is absolutely the most absurd thing I have ever read, bar none. Both houses of the United States Congress hold a Christian prayer service before each session. And, as far as I know, every modern President of The United States has attended highly publicized church services, not to mention the very specific personal beliefs they hold.

I'm willing to bet a good sum of money that neither of the two houses of Congress have a rabbi or mullah on hand, in any official capacity, while they both have an official Christian / Catholic chaplain, with a personal office, on hand.

Utterly asinine comments like that really get my goat.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

As I mentioned in my first post and referenced again in my second: "and kindly ask them to seriously rethink what they're doing". The key word being kindly. If nothing happens (and I don't expect anything to - our city is already as liberal as it could possibly be), so be it, but as mentioned in a post above by someone else, I DO need to know that I am someone who feels like I'm doing something - especially when it involves education. I think that my sister knowing christmas songs is not evil. I won't have a real problem until she starts saying, God did it (which she has done before... that I can't tolerate). But after reading the BBC article the other day, going through the last week before break in high school with teachers cracking jokes about how they'd get fired for referring to Christmas things, it really made me think why the subject isn't taken seriously at the elementary school level.

Jillian, it seems that you liked the education you received in Catholic school, Jillian. That's great and I hope you keep that knowledge with you always. I like my public high school very much too. You have not attended my school and I have not attended yours, so please (< I stress that) make no more assumptions about what my schooling or knowledge may be.

I also don't frown at green/red decor or christmas trees because our school has none. Our family, however, has all that plus lighting. I don't hate Christmas. Read the "I love it when..." thread - I love presents and cramming myself with food. I don't agree with the religion, but I will take advantage of the 2 week break it provides and the presents/food. In fact, it's lovely that there's so many religiously-based holidays - there's so many vacations in US schools.

My initial question asked what people thought about the relationship between Christmas and school. Keep your answers to that please.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

[quote=KenWittlief]christmas holiday

i mean winter holiday

no wait, I mean the winter soltice observation break (which happens to coincide with the relgious observations of at least 3 cultural groups now).
[quote]
Actually, I don't see why there's a special break for Christmas when Jews have to miss a day of school for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, or such, and Chinese New Year, when skipped, counts as an unexcused abscence (read:truancy) because it's not a "religious holiday."
To me, something like extending semester break another week (it's
1/15-1/18 now) and letting Christians take the 25th off if they want to sounds a lot more fair.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

Sounds good :) I'd love missing more school!

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

Stupid generalizations. :rolleyes:

More to say later, maybe. Maybe not.

Re: Christmas and Schools
 

Jillian was on topic in her own way.
A responce to a subject should be personal in an open-ended question like the one you gave.

Take a philosophy or Theory of Knowledge class and you will see.