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Madison 27-12-2003 11:33

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacknight
Actually M Christianity is the most persecuted religion in America because nothing protects it.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects Christianity, along with all other religions, by ensuring that the Government can create no law to disfavor it, along with all other religions. It protects all religion. To draft or enact a law that protects Christianity alone, due your assertion of its place as the "most persecuted religion," would violate the Establishment Clause and be unconstitutional. The Establishment Clause was drafted to combat the sort of argument that seeks to compel people into believing one religion is more deserving than another of anything; something that the text you've written here comes dangerously close to supporting. Your belief about which religion is most persecuted, or the reality of which religion is most persecuted, for that matter, are irrelevant in the eyes of the United States' government. It can do nothing to protect them.


Quote:

Oh and yes i have been persecuted for my faith. And yes i have fought for it so before you assume plz kno a little more about the person you're talking about.
Were you stoned by Muslims? Made to wear an identifying mark on your clothes by the Jews? Were you told that you can't openly practice your Christianity by the mayor of your town; Stuart, is it? Perhaps you were burned at the stake?

Perhaps I'm forgetting about some enormous movement toward Christian persecution in the history of the United States that parallels the real religious persecution that history has shown to have occurred around the world -- The Holocaust, The Crusades, The Witch Trials, or maybe The Boxer Rebellion. Nothing you have experienced is comparable to the scale of tyranny that a single religion, when given preference by the state, can bring forth unto other faiths. You're a member of the majority class and, as such, do not know oppression. Oppression is nothing more than theory to you, and you wield that theory dangerously and without regard for the consequences. It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.

This is way off topic now and I don't believe I have much left to say on this subject. History is clear enough about the things that have happened regarding religion and government, so the best I can hope to do is illustrate those facts. I'm not going to bother trying to make anyone believe in them.

gsensel 27-12-2003 14:59

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Krass
Were you stoned by Muslims? Made to wear an identifying mark on your clothes by the Jews? Were you told that you can't openly practice your Christianity by the mayor of your town; Stuart, is it? Perhaps you were burned at the stake?

Perhaps I'm forgetting about some enormous movement toward Christian persecution in the history of the United States that parallels the real religious persecution that history has shown to have occurred around the world -- The Holocaust, The Crusades, The Witch Trials, or maybe The Boxer Rebellion. Nothing you have experienced is comparable to the scale of tyranny that a single religion, when given preference by the state, can bring forth unto other faiths. You're a member of the majority class and, as such, do not know oppression. Oppression is nothing more than theory to you, and you wield that theory dangerously and without regard for the consequences. It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.

Yes, you are right that we have not been persecuted in the ways other religons have. Still that fact is we are persecuted in the US and many other places.

Blacknight 27-12-2003 15:35

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.
But then again, from my point of view, if Christianity is spread then more ppl are saved. In all religions somewhere in their holy book it says to spread the faith. And since the government cannot protect other faiths from being "crushed" there is nothing wrong w/ Christianity being so large because it is the ppls of the world's choice. Cultures die off things change, it is the way of life.

And persecution is what the person chooses. Yes it is not fair but they choose to beleive in a God so strongly that they are willing to die for it. But then again you wouldn't understand being an athiest or agnostic...

FotoPlasma 27-12-2003 15:36

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacknight
Oh and yes i have been persecuted for my faith. And yes i have fought for it so before you assume plz kno a little more about the person you're talking about.

Can you give some examples?

Being an atheist, I can't imagine the woes and pains of a Christian in modern American society.

Blacknight 27-12-2003 15:38

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Some examples?
Sure lets see being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism....
yeah not as extreme as being shot but then again we are america, land of the free, except for those who are different

jonathan lall 27-12-2003 17:17

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Black, I believe Foto was referring to specific examples of "being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism" etc., as you did say you were subject to it. Also, don't you think it's a tad ignorant to say that atheists and agnostics would not understand being willing to die for a god, as you are neither of the two?

I think every faith--and also athiests--have to take a lot of crap from others, but that's diffucult to quantify, so how about let's not go saying that one particular faith has it the worst. In the United States, it is clear at this moment that neither Christians nor atheists have it nearly as bad as those that belong to some other faiths.

Back to the matter at hand, would this imposition of Christmas not qualify as the exact opposite of the argument that Christians are persecuted more than others? I think it's so entrenched today that it's taken for granted. What about Easter?

KenWittlief 27-12-2003 17:20

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Ive been a born again, bible believing christain for 16 years now, and I have experienced hostility and rejection repeatedly because of this.

Many people in our society think that someone who believes in that 'Jesus nonsense' must be stupid, deluding themselves, or a former drug addict or alcoholic - because from their perspective no rational person would belive in 'religion over science'

if you dont think that affects your life on every level, you should try it sometime and see.

Jesus said His followers would be persecuted the same way He was - look what they did to Him.

The more seriously you take your belief in God, the more people will reject you for it.

Blacknight 27-12-2003 19:55

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Back to the matter at hand, would this imposition of Christmas not qualify as the exact opposite of the argument that Christians are persecuted more than others? I think it's so entrenched today that it's taken for granted. What about Easter?
It was once called Christmas n' Easter break but nowadays everything has to be P.C. and they took it out, n' changed it. I think it's been there for so long that they just can't change breaks. It would be too odd.

Yan Wang 27-12-2003 20:33

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacknight
It was once called Christmas n' Easter break but nowadays everything has to be P.C. and they took it out, n' changed it. I think it's been there for so long that they just can't change breaks. It would be too odd.

But the fact that it is tradition/there for so long does not make it politically correct or ok with all people. It's not a tradition with everyone. Change is odd, but sometimes it needs to happen. I am not, however, asking to not have my 2 week break. Here's a thought. What if it was called New Year's break instead? (just something else to discuss) When it was 2000, there were clips of pretty much every nation celebrating it. France, Australia, Russia, etc. Sure, something like Chinese New Year's isn't on the same date each year, but there were still fireworks in Beijing celebrating the Julian calendar's New Year.

Ken, I think that the more someone believes or does not believes in something, the more they'll be criticized for it if it's not widely accepted with everyone. This would include being religious or not being religious. It depends a lot on where you live and the overall community. I could imagine a lot of deep South communities being heavily Christian while some place like Ithaca is not.

Melissa Nute 27-12-2003 21:16

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Yan, you stated places about the deep South.

Yes, oh the lovely Bible Belt. I live in the Bible Belt, but yes things have changed greatly since I was a young even. I live in a place where the Christians often belittle those not of that faith.

But the world is becoming more and more politically correct. Things are losing their spirit. We live in a world where people sue each other just for looking at someone the wrong way and calling it slander yet you can't sue them for forcing you to the point of being uncomfortable just because you dont believe in Jesus.

Here in the south, public schools still aren't seperated from religion. Proof in point: my school's Bible class. It was 'intended' to be about the Bible being literature when it turned out to be taught by a local minister. It is now just a 'bible study' course instead of what it was intended to be.

Easter break got changed to Spring Break and then they moved it away from the weekend of Easter, at least in the surrounding counties here. It got moved to the end of the third quarter. Except on the Easter Weekend we get a 'spring holiday' and Friday before Easter and the Monday after Easter.

Christmas Break use to extend for the full 12 days of christmas and almost always all the days of Chanukah. Then politically correct school board members came and made the break winter break. Now the dates in the past have no longer accommodated those not Christian. *Yes I am aware that Chanukah has been rather really early in the past few years but those still use to be* Winter break happens now at the end of the second quarter.

And now I to actually continue to what this thread is truly about.
Religion and major holiday school breaks.

As long as there are strongly religious people in charge of school boards our breaks are going to aid those religions, at least here in the Bible Belt.

gsensel 27-12-2003 22:57

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meli W.
Easter break got changed to Spring Break and then they moved it away from the weekend of Easter, at least in the surrounding counties here. It got moved to the end of the third quarter. Except on the Easter Weekend we get a 'spring holiday' and Friday before Easter and the Monday after Easter.

Christmas Break use to extend for the full 12 days of christmas and almost always all the days of Chanukah. Then politically correct school board members came and made the break winter break. Now the dates in the past have no longer accommodated those not Christian. *Yes I am aware that Chanukah has been rather really early in the past few years but those still use to be* Winter break happens now at the end of the second quarter.

You say these like this is all because of a Christian, but pretty much all school breaks come at the end of grading periods, or quarters. Also many school are having a later Spring break in favor of giving a mid semester break or Winter Break. They position breaks like this so students do not have to worry about studying over them.

Melissa Nute 27-12-2003 23:19

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gsensel
You say these like this is all because of a Christian, but pretty much all school breaks come at the end of grading periods, or quarters. Also many school are having a later Spring break in favor of giving a mid semester break or Winter Break. They position breaks like this so students do not have to worry about studying over them.

I was stating that I noticed the changes that have occurred during my years of schooling. The good students still pass on both systems just like the bad students still fail so they study thing doesn't affect much, as least not for my school or a few others. A lot of it is still Christian bases though like the 'spring holiday' or such.

gsensel 28-12-2003 16:14

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meli W.
I was stating that I noticed the changes that have occurred during my years of schooling. The good students still pass on both systems just like the bad students still fail so they study thing doesn't affect much, as least not for my school or a few others. A lot of it is still Christian bases though like the 'spring holiday' or such.

Ypu are right about the good pass and the bad fail but that is no the issue, the good will pass becasue they will study over a break if they must but many prefer not to, and the bad well we all know they just don't study.

DanL 05-01-2004 02:27

Re: Christmas and Schools
 
1 Attachment(s)
I just got back from my vacation, so I appologize if you're one of those purists who feel I'm bringing the topic back from the dead...

anyways, I'm not going to start one of my usual flaming-liberal rants that has that awful tendency to get threads locked, but I do want to say (yes, kinda off-topic, but interesting nevertheless) that the reach of Christianity and Westernism in general is far greater than many of us realize...

I just spent about two weeks taking a tour in Southeast Asia (Bali, Indonesia > Singapore > Bangkok, Thailand > Hong Kong). From what I saw, the West really does influence a lot more than we realize. Singapore's population, for example, is predominately Buddhist (something close to 50%). No other religion makes up more than about 15-20%. Yet, when we visited a Hindu temple, there was a giant banner on the entrance wishing everyone a Merry Christmas. The Hindu temple had a banner wishing a Merry Christmas. The picture is attached at the end of this post. A similar thing was encountered in Bali (Indonesia). Almost everywhere we went, there were banners wishing everyone a Merry Christmas even though something like 95% of the island is Hindu. Even the airport had such banners.

Just goes to show you the influence of the West, Western culture, and the dependancy of other countries on the West (i.e. tourism).


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