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Christmas and Schools
We all know (I hope) that our government seperates religion from schools. The problem is, in this society which is mostly Christian dominated, it is very easy for many people to realize that, Hey that's religious! At our high school last year, someone put up a pine tree and there was a fiasco about it, and it's hard not to in this overly-liberal town. If you look at BBC news online right now, there's an article about how Christmas in America is a subtle yet dangerous issue.
Today, Christmas day, my 7-year old sister started singing the 12 days of Christmas. I wondered where she learned it and she said - from school. From her music teacher. At school. After today, when I get back home from Ohio (where I'm right now), I will send an email to the principal of her school (who used to be the vice principal of my middle school a while back), and kindly ask them to seriously rethink what they're doing. Personally, I have no problems with what my sister is learning. It's a song that has almost no religious importance anymore (like Christmas), but nonetheless it is still religious and being taught in schools. If one thing is allowed, then more boundaries will end up being pushed. I would much less mind Christmas decorations at high school because we are at an age where we can think for ourselves (though not always). However, in elementary school, the kids are much too young and impressionable to the words of their adult teachers. I wonder, what do people feel in general about keeping religion and school seperate during these major holiday seasons? |
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I guess I dont see why you think the 12 days of christmas is a religious song- its only about giving gifts at the traditional holiday period -its says nothing about Jesus or religion
Christmas is a pagan holiday (the winter soltice) that was, well... confiscated by the roman catholic church. If you research it a little you will discover that the church actually frowned on the celebration of christmas for longer than they have accepted it (because of its pagan roots) its only been in the last 100 years or so that it was commercialized, that it became more or less ok with the church as well. but I have gotten off the subject. The best research indicates that Jesus was actually born in late september (based on the birth of John the Baptist and his fathers duties as a temple priest, and other events related in the biblical account). but the thing that I find curious, you say you think your sisters school hasnt really done anything wrong, but you are going to give the principle a good talking to. I dont understand that. Im sure he is quite aware of the sensitive nature of the christmas holiday i mean winter holiday no wait, I mean the winter soltice observation break (which happens to coincide with the relgious observations of at least 3 cultural groups now). now that I think of it, almost every culture had some sort of mid winter or winter soltice holiday, from the myans to the druids. Personally I would prefer it if the christians threw in the towel on christmas - let it remain a time for santa claus, and observe the birth of Jesus when our best information shows it actaully occured, around the end of september. |
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So once again I must come out of my posting slumber because I can't resist political discourse (even on Christmas). My ideal path would be to be a Constitutional lawyer but remember I'm not one yet so this just my brief analysis from what I've learned thus far in political science and at a law forum in DC I went to, where our main case was actually sepearation of church and state in high school.
So first you look at the first amendment and the establishment clause in particular and it's pretty vague. No help there so you go to current court cases and presently the legal standard for seperation of church and state is the Lemon Test (from Lemon v. Kurtzman). Basically it outlines this criteria: (i) a statute [or public policy] must have a secular legislative purpose (ii) the principal effect of of the statute [or policy] must neither advance nor inhibit religion (iii) the statute [or policy] must not foster "excessive [government] entanglement with religion" So basically for a public school's actions to be deemed consitutional, they have two options: All or nothing. They can't just celebrate one holiday (with decorations, songs, parties) even if the majority of the students are of one religion because that would be advancing one religion. The school must either decide whether they not do any single holiday festivities or promote learning about various ones. Learning them all would therefore make it have a secular purpose because you're learning about the world and it's religions, basically like a History class. That's the legal standpoint and for my personal view I would go with the "all" option. Teach and celebrate Christmas but also cover Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and other religious holidays that may be celebrated by students at a school. That's the point of school right? Sure you learn the basics out of a book but why not teach students skills to do with the outside world, like FIRST does with technology. Think about it; what's the source of so many problems in today's world, the source of hate? It's ignorance. If you can start exposing kids to different beliefs and fostering acceptance of different people's cultures from a young age (c'mon, in elementary school you have time to teach this stuff since there are no AP tests or finals) then I think we'll be setting kids on the right path. Ignoring differences by keeping them out of school won't help anything. |
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Very true Kristina but the schools don't do that. Holidays are mentioned but obviously not all of them can or are covered. And if they were to cover the roots/history of Christmas or some religious holiday, it'd be ok. However, elementary schools don't cover that history. Instead, the activities seem to lean towards one religion. I found out that my sister's class had to bring in tiny little presents for "Secret Santa". Sure, the presents were small (less than dollar store items), but nowhere on the teacher's notice for the event was an option to not bring something due to either financial problems or unwillingness to participate in the Christmas-related event.
Also, the mention of "Christmas" in the song the 12 days of Christmas is not kosher in Ithaca schools (or at the least the high school). As I mentioned, this is an overly-liberal town, and if some employee at the high school said merry christmas or put up a decoration/poster/etc in the hallway, there would be hell to pay. In fact, that happened before and that employee was almost fired last year. Ken, there seemed to be some bitterness in your argument. I'm not trying to offend. One thing I wanted to mention was that in my Chinese family, we don't actually have a holiday during this time. The only reason we have a Christmas tree and get presents is to entertain my sister, who, from her schooling and society, has come to expect that Christmas is for everyone. I really don't care. My parents care more about Chinese New Year, which is in late January this year - in fact, during my regents testing week. And that is not a break from anything. So if the schools wished to have a true holiday to cover all the holidays, then it should go at least all the way to the last week of January. Our Chinese new year is possibly the biggest in the world (or 2nd to Indian holidays, since their population is also excessively large, and the Jan 1st New Year) and most celebrated. And no, Ken, I don't plan on yelling at the principal as you seemed to suggest. I said I'd be sending him a kind email asking him whether such curriculum is considerate of the various cultures represented by all the students. |
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The main problem is that our government is not even listening to themselves.
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Let's bring a Canadian perspective to this...
In Canada, (the spirit of) our constitution would say that if there is sufficient demand, it is justifiable for such things to occur. For example, provincial governments will get in deep trouble if they don't cater to their francophone constitutents with schools and other government institutions if there are 'enough' French-speaking people; this is actually a constitutional law issue in Canada. Whether or not I agree with this policy is another, more complex issue, but let me offer this: The large Catholic School Board in Toronto (and elsewhere too) gets enough government funding to be basically a public school system. My school has a large population of non-Christians however in a recent 'holiday' performance I noticed a lot of things that relate to this issue. One thing that really stood out is how a Christian extracurricular club could say 'God did this and this', whereas other religions had to say, 'it is our belief that, God did this and this...' like they're wrong or something. It's subtle, but definitely annoying. We had a yearbook cover rejected by the principal because it had (humorous) depictions of evolution, which I pointed out is recognized by most Christian institutions and even the Catholic School Board. My point? I find it annoying that we now see it being the 'holiday season' rather than the Christmas Holidays. It's Christmas, come on! Christmas is a government holiday because of the amount of Christians who celebrate it here. The Ontario Education Act even explicitly tells teachers to practice "Judeo-Christian morality" mainly because of demand. As was mentioned earlier, you must be completely exclusive of religion, or completely inclusive. Just about every multicultural school board I know of is somewhere in between (an exception being France) and is pretending the former, so that I think is what causes this discomfort. I think if more people realized the school board's and government's policies and the thinking behind them, they would mind less. That's why I don't mind the Christmas Holidays. |
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One of my friends, and a fellow FIRSTer, once told me that the person who can argue best knows all sides of the argument.
So, here I am. Baptized Catholic, attended 8 years of catholic schools, and an equivalent amount of non-denominational institutions (from day-care to now in my junior year of highschool), was raised with Quaker/Friends influences, have attended 17 different schools, and am now what some would call an atheist. Christmas Break, Holiday Break, or my personal favorite as my Chem class has come to call it, Late Semester Break, is not all about religion, boycotting religion, or whatever it may seem to be. In my opinion, it is better to embrace all religions and beliefs, than to boycott all. What better way is there to learn about other cultures than to expierience this break in America! In Catholic school, we learnt about all religions. In fact, most of our education during one semester a year is about other religions. I am now educated on Hindu, Chinese, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and many other beliefs. Now, let me ask any of my classmates at the public high school I attend this year to explain what the eight-fold belief of Confucianism is. Or where is Mecca, and why it is there. Or why was Catholicism persecuted in it's early years. Or why were any of these religions began, were embraced, and fight eachother now. I have no need to doubt what they would say. Most cannot answer past their own denomination. So what does that say about America, and you people who dislike the integration? Not much positive. So, before you begin to give the principal something to dread when he or she returns from a relaxing break, or before you frown at the red and green decor, the lighted Christmas trees, or jump to conclusions when your little sister or brother begins to sing a Christmas song, realize that the doer of that action you detest is more cultured than you are. |
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::shudders:: Liberals :rolleyes: Anyways, the issue w/ either going all the way or not doing it at all is almost never followed in public schools. That's just the way it is. It's nearly impossible for a school to incorporate ALL the religious holidays celebrated, so I guess we just go with what's celebrated most in the United States. I don't see how an e-mail to your sister's school would really do anything, because even though he may agree with you do you really thing he is going to take the time to make sure that every teacher is politically correct during the holidays?? But do whatever makes you feel like you've done something. My (probably un-needed) 2 cents :cool: |
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I wasn't planning on replying to this thread at all, but your second statement, that "it is Christianity, not religions in general, that our government doesn't want anyone to know about," is absolutely the most absurd thing I have ever read, bar none. Both houses of the United States Congress hold a Christian prayer service before each session. And, as far as I know, every modern President of The United States has attended highly publicized church services, not to mention the very specific personal beliefs they hold. I'm willing to bet a good sum of money that neither of the two houses of Congress have a rabbi or mullah on hand, in any official capacity, while they both have an official Christian / Catholic chaplain, with a personal office, on hand. Utterly asinine comments like that really get my goat. |
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Jillian, it seems that you liked the education you received in Catholic school, Jillian. That's great and I hope you keep that knowledge with you always. I like my public high school very much too. You have not attended my school and I have not attended yours, so please (< I stress that) make no more assumptions about what my schooling or knowledge may be. I also don't frown at green/red decor or christmas trees because our school has none. Our family, however, has all that plus lighting. I don't hate Christmas. Read the "I love it when..." thread - I love presents and cramming myself with food. I don't agree with the religion, but I will take advantage of the 2 week break it provides and the presents/food. In fact, it's lovely that there's so many religiously-based holidays - there's so many vacations in US schools. My initial question asked what people thought about the relationship between Christmas and school. Keep your answers to that please. |
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[quote=KenWittlief]christmas holiday
i mean winter holiday no wait, I mean the winter soltice observation break (which happens to coincide with the relgious observations of at least 3 cultural groups now). [quote] Actually, I don't see why there's a special break for Christmas when Jews have to miss a day of school for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, or such, and Chinese New Year, when skipped, counts as an unexcused abscence (read:truancy) because it's not a "religious holiday." To me, something like extending semester break another week (it's 1/15-1/18 now) and letting Christians take the 25th off if they want to sounds a lot more fair. |
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Stupid generalizations. :rolleyes: More to say later, maybe. Maybe not. |
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A responce to a subject should be personal in an open-ended question like the one you gave. Take a philosophy or Theory of Knowledge class and you will see. |
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Apparently what I said was offensive to many. I'm sorry. But that was my way of defending myself from the attack against my knowledge of cultures and my tolerance to others without any knowledge of me beforehand. End this now and please continue the discussion. If you can't calmly state your opinions, then don't.
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I have a lot to say about religion and government, but not at 2:00 AM so I'll just paraphrase something Aaron Sorkin wrote about school prayer: its not about suppressing Jesus, its about the 4th grader who gets beaten up because he didn't participate in the "voluntary" prayer, its tough enough being a kid without the people in authority showing you more ways you're different. Ah, what the hell. I was never any good at shutting up. In a college environment, when kids are supposed to be using their $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@# detectors, its okay to teach one point of view on a subject people are passionate about or to promote one culture. But you can't do that in a grade school because the whole system is designed to cram as many skills and pieces of information down a kids throat as possible, and teachers are heralded as authority figures who MUST be obeyed. So it is a good teacher's responsibility to talk about as many viewpoints and lifestyles as possible. When you talk about Christmas in college its one lifestyle and you're supposed to be old enough not to have to want to conform to it, when you talk about it in grade school, you probably will end up talking about it exclusively, in which case a non-Christian student will feel like you're telling them they should be living a life they don't want to live. If you're Christian, imagine that you went to a Jewish school and all they did was sing Chanukah songs, after awhile you'd start to feel very different and very alone. It may not seem like a big deal, but I think it really can be. There are a lot of gay kids for example who don't experience blatant homophobia but still end up with all sorts of complexes about themselves because they grew up in a culture that told them to live a certain lifestyle that they just biologically can't live. I'm sure that didn't make any sense (given that its now 2:15 AM) but I don't have the heart to delete it. |
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There are heaping piles of bad information floating about in this thread.
The government, as per the Establishment Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, is precluded from taking action to endorse any single religion. The impetus behind enacting these measures was to prevent history from repeating itself -- or, specifically, to avoid oppression by the State such as that of England and its officially endorsed Church of England. Remember why the Pilgrims piled into the Mayflower in the first place? Kristina's already done a good job in explaining the legal processes at work in these debates. A quick search of the internet will reveal the text of the important court decisions regarding this issue. Let's talk about some of the erroneous assumptions made, though, and maybe dispel some of their incorrection assertions.
That's simply wrong. Christmas was first celebrated by Christians in 336 A.D., while Pope Gregory officially included December 25th as Christmas day in his sixteenth century reign. Christmas was adopted as a means of stymieing celebration of "pagan" holidays in empires that officially recognized Christianity as their state religion. It certainly has been "okay with the Church" for quite a bit longer than the last century, and has since been manipulated into a celebration of Christ as a means of further denying its heritage as a celebration borne out of oppression.
Christian history itself shows that the Christmas holiday is little more than a convenient appropriation of other celebrations, notably Iranian and Roman, intent on minimizing their practice and significance. Similarly, courts of the United States and its States have ruled that Christmas is not considered to be a religious observance by the population and, as such, our government's recognition of December 25 as a federal holiday is not in violation of the Establishment Clause or the Fourteenth Amendment. The history of Christmas, coupled with such decisions by our courts, raises some interesting questions. The precedent of such cases is that it's possible to "secularize" religious observances by coupling or shrouding their observance with consumerism and recreation. It gives the government the power to underhandedly give preference and precedence to certain holy days, typically Christian, by conjuring up secular celebrations to coincide with them. In many ways, the courts have deconstructed the Christian establishment of Christmas by claiming it as a secular celebration, conflicting with the Church's own actions toward stripping Christmas of its secular, or "pagan" history. One must wonder the extent to which it may be possible to "secularize" religious observances and make them sanitized enough for government support. If the Catholic Church declared that our Memorial Day were to be observed as a religious celebration, are we to abdicate its significance as a national holiday, or would the recognition of its secular roots retain strength enough to clearly maintain the "separation of Church and state"? Such precedents may result in the de facto establishment of an official religion, or, in my opinion, the continued establishment of Christianity as the sanctioned religion of the United States of America.
In fact, everything points to the opposite. I've already written about the move toward supposed "secularization" of Christian observances and the sanction given by courts. There exist in our government myriad references to God, found everywhere from our currency to our Pledge of Allegiance. The backlash against these policies and practices is easily characterized as an explicit attack on Christian sensibilities and morals, but it is not. It is a rebellion, in its earliest stages, against the tyranny of the majority. Christianity is, by far, the most popular, practiced religion in the United States, and as such, is implicated in a proportionate number of court cases intent on examining how the Establishment Clause is being upheld amid a population that has, in the last decades, become increasingly religious. Court cases challenging the Pledge of Allegiance, nativity scenes on public property, or public funding of religiously-affiliated private schools are not designed, however, to squelch Christian practice or deny Christians their right to believe in the God they trust. Instead, they are designed to make sure that Christianity does not, in its increasing influence, strip minority groups of their rights to freedom of religious expression. If Buddhism were of similar prominence, it's likely that it would be subject to exactly the same criticisms. Those things said, the ways that courts, schools, and other organizations deal with that backlash is often ineffective and inconsistent.
The Establishment Clause does not distinguish between institution or individual. It was erected to defend against the possibility of the power of government being used by those charged with its operation, via election or appointment, to support, encourage, or proliferate the belief system of any one religion over another. Where the influence to take such action in support of certain religions originates is inconsequential.
Gross generalizations about the beliefs, ideas, or potential of other people to do good or harm are, almost universally, without legitimacy. To claim otherwise, or to engage in such generalizations is sophomoric and indicative of an utter lack of understanding of the issues at hand; those of power balance, privilege, oppression and opportunity. Furthermore, while I don't believe that Yan's action is responsible or consequential, I admire him for acting upon his conviction. It is, without doubt, considerably more respectable to enjoy the benefits of government while participating in its processes than it is to simply enjoy its benefits without understanding or caring about who has suffered to bring them to you.
I can only speak for myself, but this is not true. In fact, to my thinking, to suggest that people are "flaming" one another is often a tactic used when one has no other recourse in defending themselves or their argument. To suggest that someone writes from emotion strips them of their credibility, such that any points they may make are rendered immaterial and discarded. It's a simple, convenient mechanism for ignoring issues we do not want to address. It's ineffective. There's nothing that's happened here insofar as giving any indication that people are upset with the discourse taking place. People are, instead, reacting to this thread and writing their opinions about the issues contained herein. Because they do not seem germane to any one person's views, ideas, or hopes for this discussion does not mean that they're without merit, nor without place. Instead, I think that varied contributions provide more viewpoints from which we can each examine our own feelings. |
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The history of Christmas is a wonderful thing. |
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when I said "If you research it a little you will discover that the church actually frowned on the celebration of christmas for longer than they have accepted it (because of its pagan roots)"
what I meant was, the christian church tried to take over the pagan practices of the winter soltace celebrations, but they could not surplant the existing traditions completely and as a result they ended up with a cross beween a christain celebration of the birth of Christ along with many pagan rituals and practices, some of which were very sexual in nature so in a sense, the church created a monster :c) there was an (unusally excellent) program on the history of christmas on the history channel a while ago that talked about this - it wasnt until christmas started becoming commercialized in the US that it started to loose its more objectional associations with the immoral pagan practices - then it became more generally acceptable to the church as a whole (I wish I knew where to point you for more info on this) so I didnt mean to say that christmas was rejected by the church, they thought they could squelch the pagan practices assosicated with the winter soltice observation, but instead they ended up giving them more steam than if they had left them alone. I guess you had to see the program - they explained it better than I am here. BUT back to the subject of this thread - I have several friends who came here from China, and I see there intentions on maintaining their cultural traditions with their children. Ive been invited to several Chinese new-years partys and always have a great time. My grandparents came to the US from Germany around 1910 - and I wish I had learned more about their roots, learned to speak german... Christmas IS a part of our culture. So is thanksgiving, july 4th, easter, rock and roll music, fast food, and being independant and somewhat rebellious when you are young :^) One thing I would suggest to turn this situation around - talk to your sisters teacher and see if you can start some sort of chinese new year celebration at her school - I like moon-pie (at least once a year :c) |
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I saw Kwanzaa mentioned, but Kwanzaa is not a religious thing. It was invented by Dr. Maulana Karenga, chair of Department of Black Studies at CSU-Long Beach in 1966 as an alternative to Christmas.
Dr. Karenga's official Kwanzaa website states that while celebrating Kwanzaa includes "special reverence for the creator," and is "spiritual," ". . . it is important to note Kwanzaa is a cultural holiday, not a religious one. ...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society." Hurray for political correctness and misinformation! About students having to take unexcused absences for Rosh Hashanah and other holidays, here in Fairfax County you get an excused absence for any religious holiday, with a note from your parent. And about the 12 days of Christmas, the song by itself has become secular because no one knows its history, much like many people belive Kwanzaa is an ancient African celebration. Because something mentions a religious event, you want it removed from your sisters school? Better remove all the history books, and don't forget the encyclopedias. The constitution does not ban religion, it just prohibits laws regarding any establishment of religion or limiting the free practice thereof. However, the 12 days of Christmas song does have religious significance. The 12 days start with Christmas Day and finish on the eve of Epiphany, January 5th. From what I can remember True love - God 2 Turtle Doves - Old and New Testaments 4 Calling Birds - 4 Gospels 5 Golden Rings - The Pentateuch (first 5 books of Old Testament) 6 Geese a-laying - Days of creation 10 Lords a-leaping - 10 Commandments 11 Pipers Piping - 11 faithful apostles 12 Drummers Drumming - 12 points of the Apostles Creed Wetzel |
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And the whole christmas break thing. Call it whatever you want to. But since everything must be completely politically correct now-a-days just say winter break. |
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The world's history shows that our ability to express our faith can and has been crushed, obscured and rendered impossible by the actions of other religious groups. Our government is not concerned with what is in our minds -- it cannot and does not legislate against thought, largely -- and is most concerned with what action we take. It is concerned with giving us each the opportunity to peacefully celebrate our religion without fear of consequence from those who disagree. It is illegal to employ racist business practices; it is not illegal to have racist thoughts. Freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression are synonymous, even in occupying the text of the first amendment to the Constitution, so your assertion that they cannot be crushed is proven by history to be patently wrong. Perhaps a more careful review of my previous post will illuminate some historical facts about the Christian celebration of Christmas that are eluding you. It was adopted by the Church expressly as a means of supplanting the religious observances of other religion. It is a paramount example showing precisely how religion can seek to deny the expression of other religious beliefs and how historically baseless your points are. |
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I remembered something while driving back to NY. When my sister was in preschool, she came home one day with a picture flap book about Noah's Ark. And you know what she did? She started talking about how she learned from school that God had created the animals. If she learned it herself and believed it, I would respect her thoughts. However, the fact that her school taught it to her was something that infuriated me. The 12 days of christmas does not do that to me. It just brings up a question my mind regarding her curriculum. It also reminds me of the Noah's Ark situation. |
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are you sure you are not imposing your religious beliefs on your little sister?
one of the basic principles of being a parent, brother, friend... is that each person will eventually come to the right understanding of the universe, and find their own place in it. People may try to influence us along the way, but in the long run, we all find a concept of the world that matches what is in our hearts. even though its difficult to do, we must give each individual the freedom and room, and have faith that they will make the right decisions. |
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I didn't say to her that that was not true. I was just infuriated within myself that the school tried to impose those ideas upon her. She has come to learn, after 3-4 years, what she has wanted to and luckily, when I asked her just now about who created animals, she said, "I dunno." :)
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many years back our family was going somewhere in the car
My son Jeremy was about 4, and he pointed out the window and said "God made those trees!" my wife said,"Thats right! who made your sister? and he said "God did" and I asked him who made your mommy? and he said "God did" and my daughter asked him, "Who made daddy?" he thought for a second and lowered his voice and said, " I dont know ?! " :^) |
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Actually M Christianity is the most persecuted religion in America because nothing protects it. Everything is made to protect other religions, but nothing on christianity. The original idea was a good idea, but now it is useless. Just like Affermative Action. I'm srry to rant on this but it is totally useless. Racism doesn't plague america like it once did. Busniess do not hire who they like based on race, they hire the person that can do the job the best. Just like the whole protection of other religions AA has become just as useless. The church can't crush any other religions anymore. How could they? They have no army, no way to "run them out of busniess." Thus all religions are equal in america.
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Perhaps I'm forgetting about some enormous movement toward Christian persecution in the history of the United States that parallels the real religious persecution that history has shown to have occurred around the world -- The Holocaust, The Crusades, The Witch Trials, or maybe The Boxer Rebellion. Nothing you have experienced is comparable to the scale of tyranny that a single religion, when given preference by the state, can bring forth unto other faiths. You're a member of the majority class and, as such, do not know oppression. Oppression is nothing more than theory to you, and you wield that theory dangerously and without regard for the consequences. It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false. This is way off topic now and I don't believe I have much left to say on this subject. History is clear enough about the things that have happened regarding religion and government, so the best I can hope to do is illustrate those facts. I'm not going to bother trying to make anyone believe in them. |
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And persecution is what the person chooses. Yes it is not fair but they choose to beleive in a God so strongly that they are willing to die for it. But then again you wouldn't understand being an athiest or agnostic... |
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Being an atheist, I can't imagine the woes and pains of a Christian in modern American society. |
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Some examples?
Sure lets see being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism.... yeah not as extreme as being shot but then again we are america, land of the free, except for those who are different |
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Black, I believe Foto was referring to specific examples of "being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism" etc., as you did say you were subject to it. Also, don't you think it's a tad ignorant to say that atheists and agnostics would not understand being willing to die for a god, as you are neither of the two?
I think every faith--and also athiests--have to take a lot of crap from others, but that's diffucult to quantify, so how about let's not go saying that one particular faith has it the worst. In the United States, it is clear at this moment that neither Christians nor atheists have it nearly as bad as those that belong to some other faiths. Back to the matter at hand, would this imposition of Christmas not qualify as the exact opposite of the argument that Christians are persecuted more than others? I think it's so entrenched today that it's taken for granted. What about Easter? |
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Ive been a born again, bible believing christain for 16 years now, and I have experienced hostility and rejection repeatedly because of this.
Many people in our society think that someone who believes in that 'Jesus nonsense' must be stupid, deluding themselves, or a former drug addict or alcoholic - because from their perspective no rational person would belive in 'religion over science' if you dont think that affects your life on every level, you should try it sometime and see. Jesus said His followers would be persecuted the same way He was - look what they did to Him. The more seriously you take your belief in God, the more people will reject you for it. |
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Ken, I think that the more someone believes or does not believes in something, the more they'll be criticized for it if it's not widely accepted with everyone. This would include being religious or not being religious. It depends a lot on where you live and the overall community. I could imagine a lot of deep South communities being heavily Christian while some place like Ithaca is not. |
Re: Christmas and Schools
Yan, you stated places about the deep South.
Yes, oh the lovely Bible Belt. I live in the Bible Belt, but yes things have changed greatly since I was a young even. I live in a place where the Christians often belittle those not of that faith. But the world is becoming more and more politically correct. Things are losing their spirit. We live in a world where people sue each other just for looking at someone the wrong way and calling it slander yet you can't sue them for forcing you to the point of being uncomfortable just because you dont believe in Jesus. Here in the south, public schools still aren't seperated from religion. Proof in point: my school's Bible class. It was 'intended' to be about the Bible being literature when it turned out to be taught by a local minister. It is now just a 'bible study' course instead of what it was intended to be. Easter break got changed to Spring Break and then they moved it away from the weekend of Easter, at least in the surrounding counties here. It got moved to the end of the third quarter. Except on the Easter Weekend we get a 'spring holiday' and Friday before Easter and the Monday after Easter. Christmas Break use to extend for the full 12 days of christmas and almost always all the days of Chanukah. Then politically correct school board members came and made the break winter break. Now the dates in the past have no longer accommodated those not Christian. *Yes I am aware that Chanukah has been rather really early in the past few years but those still use to be* Winter break happens now at the end of the second quarter. And now I to actually continue to what this thread is truly about. Religion and major holiday school breaks. As long as there are strongly religious people in charge of school boards our breaks are going to aid those religions, at least here in the Bible Belt. |
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I just got back from my vacation, so I appologize if you're one of those purists who feel I'm bringing the topic back from the dead...
anyways, I'm not going to start one of my usual flaming-liberal rants that has that awful tendency to get threads locked, but I do want to say (yes, kinda off-topic, but interesting nevertheless) that the reach of Christianity and Westernism in general is far greater than many of us realize... I just spent about two weeks taking a tour in Southeast Asia (Bali, Indonesia > Singapore > Bangkok, Thailand > Hong Kong). From what I saw, the West really does influence a lot more than we realize. Singapore's population, for example, is predominately Buddhist (something close to 50%). No other religion makes up more than about 15-20%. Yet, when we visited a Hindu temple, there was a giant banner on the entrance wishing everyone a Merry Christmas. The Hindu temple had a banner wishing a Merry Christmas. The picture is attached at the end of this post. A similar thing was encountered in Bali (Indonesia). Almost everywhere we went, there were banners wishing everyone a Merry Christmas even though something like 95% of the island is Hindu. Even the airport had such banners. Just goes to show you the influence of the West, Western culture, and the dependancy of other countries on the West (i.e. tourism). |
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