Pit Politics
 

Entering into our third year I've noticed how the location of your pit can greatly affect the final picks. Alot of the teams that ally together are located in clost proximity to each other. This isn't bad I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

Re: Pit Politics
 

I have not noticed this but now that you mention that i agree. I think it is because the teams near your pit get to see how well your robot is working and how you are doing in the competition.

Re: Pit Politics
 

Politics in the pits is one of the biggest parts on if you are gonna get picked or not. Shure you have your teams that are awesome every year and make it into the top 8. Thats why you come up with a business plan being able to sell yourself to that team. You have to convince them that you will be better then the 30 something other teams there. We are going into are fourth year and i know that durning the three days we are there you go friendships with the people in the next pit wiht you. You let them borrow tools and they let you borrow tools you exchange ideas. I think that the politics that go's on are great. Its just like in the real world you have to be able to sell yourself and FIRST is just getting a headstart on it

Re: Pit Politics
 

I don't know if I totally agree with the proximity of your pit to others helps with a selection. I haven't ever dealt with it, however, I guess it is possible. Building friendships with others helps. Not only do you have that to work off of at a given competition, but if the proper people build the relations it may benefit your team in the future. In addition to that team, I have found relations with certain teams, will help you create relations with other teams at the same time.

I don't totally agree with the politics though. Yes, you may be good year after year, or you may be on the other end and get a lucky break, and be good for one year and be noticed. However, I wish that it could be a level playing field for all to be noticed equally. But the real world doesn't always allow that.

Re: Pit Politics
 

Well, this past year we picked all our teams using a high-tech, patented, rating system and algorithm program... nah! We just watched all the matches and noted on what teams did well, complemented what we do, and other things. But oddly enough, our two alliance partners were infront of and behind us in the pits!

Re: Pit Politics
 

When you have about 30 minutes to determine what teams that you would like to try to ally with, most teams drop back to the old "who do we know" method. Since the teams next to them in the pits have been neighbors for two and a half grueling days, you remember them. Most times fondly.

It all boils down to perception. If the person in charge of stacking up teams has a bad perception of a team for whatever reason (sometimes it's just that one of the students on the team did something goofy in front of them), that team will fall down on the list.

What I try to stress to the students is that, during the competition, perception is everything. Good sportsmanship, gracious professionalism and the will to help out another team in need, will get you picked quicker than anything else. Assuming that you have a functional robot.

Re: Pit Politics
 

I would agree that although pit placement and proximity are important, the most important variable is how well you know a team. I think that reputation has the most to do with choosing allies. At my first regional last year my team (857) got bumped up into 8th. We got to choose allies. We chose two teams that we both personally knew well and had good reputations - ChiefDelphi and Truck Town Thunder.

Re: Pit Politics
 

I think that what you're saying is sort of correct. Teams are placed in the pits, near teams of similar number (aka, numerical order), and I think it would be a fair thing to say that most of the time, the teams doing the picking are going to go for the more experienced teams. The more experienced teams are going to be the ones with lower numbers and more years in the competition, and most of the time, more experience in engineering and overall knowledge, at least compared to the newer teams. A team with more experience in the engineering departments will most likely have a better robot, and, at least as I see it on my team, more experienced drivers, therefore producing a robot more appealing to the general picking public. Please note that I'm not trying to say that old teams rule and new teams stink, because that's really not my intention, just that teams with more experience have had more of an opportunity to perfect certain techniques that transfer through the years, and the older teams, due to numerical order placement, are typically together.

This is just my opinion and is more than likely wrong, and if you really want to make a note, I'm not even on engineering, so this may be 100% wrong, just my observations and opinions! :)

Re: Pit Politics
 

Placement does have something to do with it, but I think personal politics have more to do with it. You notice a lot of the time at least one of the partners is either close in number or close in team location to the other. For example, last year at the Midwest Regional, Team 292 from Russiaville, Indiana (about 5 minutes from Kokomo) picked us, because A. They knew what we could do and B. We are located close to each other and we know each other pretty well. Something I have noticed is that if a team is debating on picking one of two teams, they will pick the team that they know better and are friends with over the team that they do not know the adults/field coaches. Obviously its much easier to work with a friend that you know how they work over someone you do not know.

Re: Pit Politics
 

Very, very true. You aren't going to pick a team: a) if you have no idea how they function, b) if you don't know very much about the way their bot works, and c) if you have no idea how you'll ally together. You'll be ten times more likely to fall back on instances and friendships of teams you know you are compatible with.

Re: Pit Politics
 

I think that yes, location can be very important. As many others have said, I know that when I'm in the pits... and something goes wrong... I often rely on the teams next to me and say "Hey, can you lend me a hand?" and they do the same back. I think that after a few days you have really learned each others robots because you've worked with them to help them... as well as understand how they think strategically, and thus it's easier to strategize in finals, making them a logical partner.

As you see with almost all teams, the first day is scouting day... because you have no experience with any of the teams' robots. By the end, you still probably have only worked with a team your considering once on the field, so you really don't have much of an impression, and like I said, in the pits... you have alot of working together time. That's my view on it.

Re: Pit Politics
 

I agree that pit location can enter in as a factor for choosing alliances, but the bigger determinant, other than scouting at the current comp., as most people have said is familiarity with a team. The Firebirds had a very successful alliance with E.A.R.T.H. (618) at the Philly regional, and as a result, in the Newton division at nats, 618 picked our team because our performance was good, but more importantly because they new from our first alliance together that our robots and team members complimented each other well. The Firebirds again selected 618 at an off-season comp. mainly because we had to think on our feet (because we were bumped up to 8th and hadn't planned on picking) and we new their team well so it became an obvious and safe choice to make.

But back to the pit location, if your team scouts well, then that information bridges any gaps between two teams placed far away in the pits.

Re: Pit Politics
 

Hmm.

I can't help but agree, and disagree.

First of all, i believe that placement in the pits is, infact, a major aspect of decision in choosing alliances. If you are next to someone, you get to see, in detail, what works and what dosnt work with their robot. You also get to see there scores (if they have a score board). You also get an important look at the overall morale of the team.

1. Who really built that robot? You can tell very easilly. If there are students working on it, then that is a huge bonus.
2. Is that robot working? Can it even move? Is everything operational?
3. Is everyone sulking around? Has the pain of defeat gotten them down? This shows not only a lack of confidence in their abilities, but a lack of enthusiasm as well. Not generally a good thing.
4. Is there even anyone in the pit? If so, are they there to greet other teams, and explain their robot? Greeters are very important. It allows you to show off all of the hard work that you have done.

But I also have to say that performance on the field is extremelly important. A really talented driver can beat the best designed robot on the field.

Attitude is vital as well. Teams with a crummy attitude towards other teams is one of the factors that can make a potential picking team decide they would not work well together from practice on thursday.

Just an observation.

Re: Pit Politics - Form a Sales Plan
 

If you ran statistics relating partnership to distance from pit location, it wouldn't surprise me to see a small correlation. However, I don't know if it would be huge. Whatever relation there is is most likely due to the fact that teams generally notice how the teams around them are doing.

I would encourage your team to formulate a sales plan to get teams interested in your robot.

Let's get one thing straight - no sales plan is going to get your team picked if your robot is no good. First and formost, you have to have a good robot and a good team.

However, you can have the best robot in all of FIRST and still not get picked if no one sees you compete. It has happened to us many times when we approach teams to talk to them about our robot, and they're not sure that they've seen it. We then talk to the right people (the people doing the picking) to try and get them excited about going to a match to watch our robot compete. The biggest thing is to make them take special notice of you during that match.

I don't know if I would create a sales pitch that makes people want to pick you sight unseen. However, you need to be sure you make them want to come see you play - then let your performance speak for itself.

-Chris

Re: Pit Politics
 

"Pit Politics" or "Knowing People"?
Each team impliments it's own "system" in the end

Proximity of pit location helps at times and it's safe to say that if teams are close in team number, then they came into FIRST about the same time and are more likely to know one another.

Scouting, for us at 103, and for many, is paramount. As a few people alluded to earlier, scouting includes knowing people as well as knowing robots. It always astounds me to see huge scouting efforts going on that include little or no information about people. The robot design and capabilities are huge (who wouldn't love a chance to drive Wildstang 2003, etc.), but the overall performance comes down to those programming, maintaining and controlling the robot as well as the demeanor of the field coaches, drivers, and human players.

This is a competition and some perform better than others under pressure. Some carry more experience to the driver station than others. Some strategize in more knowledgable and collaborative ways than others. No robot, no matter how awesome, has ever won a match by itself. In this sense, what some consider to be "pit politics" others would call "knowing people" as a part of scouting and/or past experience.

Re: Pit Politics - Form a Sales Plan
 

Several regionals don't do placement by increasing team number, but by a system that tries to put a vetran team next to a rookie team. It would be interesting to see if there would still be a correlation.

Re: Pit Politics
 

this is an interesting question, and a good topic for a little bit of engineering analysis

the 'requirement' that we pick teams 'next to us in the pits' as alliance partners (putting this in engineering system terms) is somewhat vague and fuzzy

lets look at the data :c)

how many teams are 'next to you' in the pits?

2? Id say no. unless you are against a wall there is a team to your left and right, a team across the isle from you, two teams diagonally across the isle from you, and 3 teams behind you - thats 8 teams 'next to you' that you could take out if you were a king on a chess board

if there are 40 teams at the regional, then you have an 8 out of 40 chance of allying with one of your neighbors (1/5 = 20%) on the first pick, and a 20% chance on the second - these are accumalative odds, not exclusive, so your odds are somewhere around 40% just by placement alone.

add to that the fact that when you or or neighbor needs help in the pits, or have a break and are idle, the people you are mostly likely to interact with are your neighbors - so you get to know each other, and your machines

so even though a neighbor may not have performed well in the seeding matches, you will know which one of those 8 neighbors have a great machine inwhich the bugs have been worked out - better than you will know the other 32 machines in the pit area.

given all this, the conclusion appears to be valid - in fact, you would expect it

BTW - great observation into what professionals call 'networking'. getting to know the people around you, their skills abilities and weaknesses.