Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

why not? last year there was a huge blind spot on the opposite side of the ramp, where the drivers could not see their bot

esp if you had a bot low enough to get under the bar

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

you know i kinda like this idea as well

a rotating access gate

however if autonomous is used how would you apply it to the roatating gate ????

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

"a rotating access gate"

that would be cruel

esp if you had to get through the gate in auton mode, and all 4 bots were trying to get through a passage only big enough for 1

I promised I wouldnt pull out any of my remaining hair at the kickoff this year

I might as well pull it all out now and get it over with!

Re: Be careful, Dave can be misleading
 

If you had top secret information, and you knew 5,000+ people wanted to know, wouldn't you have a little fun with it? I would!! :p :yikes:

FYI: For the caster ... they have it listed on the BOM for $22/ea. On the site provided, the casters are $11.92/ea.

Re: Be careful, Dave can be misleading
 

[quote=Katie Reynolds]shipping + handling? ;)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Perhaps there isn't a structure in the middle of the field, but at each end.

Drivers would drive from the top of the structure. Losing team is dumped into the water tank.


Wetzel

Water Wont Happen
 

:mad: DUDE! get off the water topic. Aint happening for a long time. Especially not this year.

Re: Water Wont Happen
 

Neither will half the stuff that has been posted in this thread. Perhaps its time to move this thread to the rumor mill, and another thread for updates to the BOM be placed in the general forum.

I'm seeing something like Torriod Terror, but with a structure for robots to climb on instead of placing tubes on, at the end of the field.


Wetzel

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

how much plywood and lumber does it take to build a half-pipe

like skateboarders use?

I think the BOM is close

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Looks like a ramp, a platform, a maze, and a movable object - maybe some kind of series of tasks to complete, and timed to boot. If you knew the objective of the 1st couple tasks you might be able to autonomusly program the bot to accomplish that part of the match. Reference to Stairway to Heaven is too obvious, a fork in the road near the end of the maze with a swinging gate that either makes the distance longer or shorter is what I expect to see.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I spent an hour or so thinking up and researching a few possible ways of interpreting the "Vmax = 10 feet/sec" hint given by FIRST. Now, as with any other year, these guesses could be way off, but the process was fun, so I won't mind :)

Somewhat evidence-based:

1. Could FIRST be hinting at a new playing field surface? TerraGuard blankets are used to prevent soil erosion, but I'm guessing the material is strong enough to be used on certain portions of the playing field. Look at the dimensions of the standard roll of the TerraGuard material. Its 7.5 feet wide, which is very similar to the 8 foot width needed by the lumber FIRST wants us to acquire. The TerraGuard roll also stretches for 120 feet, which is the total length of the {1-1/2" Sched 40 PVC Pipe}s when placed next to each other (10LF x 12). This could just be one very convenient coincidence, but its worth mentioning.
2. Maybe FIRST is telling us a part needed on the playing field? Super Ball Bushing Bearing Pillow Blocks can travel at speeds up to 10 feet/sec and can be secured with 2 mounting bolts (for sizes 1/4" and 3/8"), which is the exact number of {1/4"-20 X 2-1/2" Hex Head Bolt}s FIRST wants us to get.

Random:

1. Is FIRST providing an indication of the incline angle of a specific field component? If so, would the angle be 15 degrees?
2. Is FIRST hinting at some sort of crane, or robotic arm field component? Or, will we have to build something throughout the duration of each match (credit to Joe Ross)?
3. The one recurring element in this entire process was, believe it or not, water (lol, just had to through this one in here). Now, ruling out the presence of water in the 2004 challenge is easy on many fronts, but what of water control mechanisms? Many pH sensors can't return accurate results if fluid flow is greater than 10 feet/sec; the Greyline DFS-II Doppler Flow Switch can expand to meet flow rates up to 10 feet/sec. eh..

Some interesting links:
http://www.marsh-mcbirney.com/Produc...3000_specs.htm
www.revex.com/pyrmtbl.html
http://wrgis.wr.usgs.gov/wgmt/sfslide/graph/debris.jpg
www.devicelink.com/pmpn/archive/99/12/005.html

Re: Be careful, Dave can be misleading
 

But for double the price?? Thats a little too much for shipping and handling...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

for the sake of the audiance, i don't think they'd put a huge dividing wall up that couldn't be seen through.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hee! :D You better not.

But honestly, I just think that the game, at least part of the reason why we're all here...should throw all teams for a loop year after year. If teams remember how to do it, it hurts beyond this year - it hurts the org in general in many ways.

And I guess I have faith in FIRST's creativity. They've done it before, and I know they can do it again without resorting too much to older stuff.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

really

i would hope you used it in good health hehehe. :)


come to think of it maybe dave would be thinking the same thing 4 robots would move around the field pick up different length guns that automatically chages its size so know 1 gets the advantage. ammunition would be a rubber ball and targest would be moving..

this is a rather different idea and crazy enough that no 1 but me would think of

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Perhaps there is a relationship here. The pressure sensor could be used to FIRST's advantage as well. Perhaps there is a button on the field. An alliance partner positions a gun (PVC) with a rubber ball in it, and the alliance partner races and pushes the button. The maximum speed of the ball based on the air pressure could be 10 ft/sec.

Cases against:
10 ft per second is pretty slow (6.82 mph) for a ball to travel
Does not use stairway to heaven
It came from me

Anyways, the game should be mighty interesting (/me formulates for a drive system that works on stairs :D )

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Completely agree.

Not trying to copy your idea, but I thought the game would be a combination of past year's games. The step from the puck of 99, movable goals like 01 and 02, and the scoring zone of the 02 for the goals. The PVC pipes and the steel pipes also hint the place for putting scoring objects and/or for the robots to grab on to. Very likely is they will be places around the center structures like the poles of the 99 puck for robots to grab onto.

My thought is that the movable goals will be really important part of the game, if not the scoring objects themselves. They will have to be moved to the end zones where they worth some points just being in the zone, or they have to be brought up to the steps or ramps on the center structure of wood. It would be more challenging to lift that goal on top of steps of course

Come to think of it, if we have goals to move, steps to go onto, that's pretty challenging already. Chances are scoring objects are going to be balls or something easy to put on the goals.

My guess is, the score include the position of the robots on the steps, the position of the goals at the endzone and/or on top of steps, the placement of scoring objects on the movable goals. There maybe 2, or 3 goals on the field to move, so no one team can dominate just 1 of them and shut out the game. The steel pipes might even hint a place for robots to lift themselves off the floor, whether it's just to help the robots to get on the steps or hanging as an objective itself. So robots may not need to get on the steps with the help of those.

The great thing about this game is it is difficult for any alliance to dominate that game. You have the center structure to get on top of, scoring objects to place, and the goal(s) to mess around. That's at least 3 objective for 2 teams to fight over. Exactly 1 more than what an alliance of 2 robot can defend easily.

People probably won't see my post in the massive thread, but in case I am right, I have the evidence to say "I told you so :P".

Good luck to us all. It will be a challenging game to say the least.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

That is the exact same reason I posted!

Heh.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I like this interpretation too (stairs is too obvious of a hint)... then maybe the Vmax=10ft/sec is not velocity but a multiplier value, such as:

[V]alue max = 10 * [F]inal [T]otal per second of autonomous control

Say they keep the 15 sec autonomous mode, but make it optional - using the human player sensor pads from last year, if all of your team members stand on these pads your robot stays in autonomous and your multiplier increases, but as soon as you get off of the pad to approach the controls you get switched to manual mode and the multiplier is set. A multiplier of 10 per second seems rather large though.... just thinkin'

Merle
571 Team Paragon
Windsor, CT

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hmmm... thats an interesting way to look at it

the equation they threw at us last year just before the kickoff was for the scoring

maybe you will be able to score points during auton mode independantly of the rest of the match

and like you said, F and T stand for something, like floppies and tires

then if you got one of each, and you did it in 10 seconds, your score would be 10 * F * T divided by 10

but if you do it in one second, it will be divided by 1 which would give you ten times the score you would get for doing it in 10 seconds.....

could be!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

From the vendor webiste:

3 1/2" Casters - Grey Tire with Aluminum Core
Swivel caster with brake and large plate.
511-53735854

Why would they specify a caster with a brake? :confused:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I am SOOOO hoping there are stairs... (I was working on few game designs involving them myself...)

Stairway=stairs
To=2 ways to get across the field
Heaven=a vertical game component(?)

I think there will be a stairs obstacle... and the game will be a bit more in the verticle direction. I mean... if you think about it... in 2002 we had a flat field and three (rather low to the ground) goals... 2003 there was the ramp... which was rather easy to drive over, or around, so there was no vertical challange. The last time we had any tasks that needed to be done above the field was in 2001 with the large balls and the two tall PVC goals. Before that was the "troughs" and hanging bar of the 2000 game. I also think they might be trying to get back a bit of the height challenge... so that teams really have to decide between building short robots... or comitting themselves to the harder challenge of crossing the field.

Which then brings in the Stairway TO Heaven. Maybe the game will be similar obstacle wise to 2001. Where you could go under the bar and/or over the ramp... but they are removing the "and" so you have to choose between

[A) the "shorter" robot and an easy way across the field (perhaps it might have an almost 90 degree turn to 'prevent' the "compactable" long arm bots from 2001 that could place the large balls and go under the bar from going that way...)

or

[B) choose the harder way across the field... and not have to worry about keeping your robot short enough to clear the bar, so you could have an advantage scoring points (tennis balls? footballs? road cones?... whatever) in an above the field goal similar to 2000.

Anywho... thats my long guess...

PS-If you want to laugh at me for being completely wrong later... you can do so at the Philly Regional... I'll be the one without the voice... If you aren't at the field on time. (Carol has made me head of Q-ing!)

PPS- I also feel the need to mention Jake's idea... 2 vs 2 vs 2 ... It could be interesting!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Last year at this time, people were talking about footballs and frisbees and basketballs, oh my. THEN, DL posted the cryptic ax^2+bx+c clue. Which confirmed in everybody's minds that we were going to have projectiles.

This year, when everyone is talking about stairs, DL posts song lyrics which come from Stairway to Heaven, and everyone is thinking, "Ah-ha...Stairs."

Surely, everyone knows that DL knows that we'll know the lyrics to Stairway. Hence, my guess is that stairs are definitely, positively NOT going to be part of this year's competition. (Unless DL knows that we know that he knows that we know the lyrics AND that he'll know that we'll know that he's trying to throw us off the scent. Since he knows that we know that he's trying to throw us off the scent, he'll throw us ONTO the scent, which we'll know that he's trying to do. Which will actually throw us OFF the scent.)

With all of that wood, I think there is going to be a blind maze separating an important part of the playing field, where the fast way to get to it is to autonomously traverse the maze and the hard way through will be to take "the other road." If you get stuck in the maze, there may be a way to shift out of autonomy and "change the road you're on."

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

So which cup is the iocaine powder in?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Both!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Inconceivable!!

FIRST hasn't made my head hurt nearly to the extent that all of the other posts in this thread have. Three more days...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

ohhhh! a blind maze! your robot goes in one side and has to find its way to the other side of the field

but the maze is enclosed so the drivers cant see inside it

and the bot has to find its own way through

but the kicker is those castors - the internal walls will be hinged and movable, so that either the refs can change the location of the walls before the match

OR

the bots can push the walls from the inside, changing the configuration of the maze - so your bot has to navigate a maze that can be different from game to game, or it can be changed during the game by the bots themselves.

!

or maybe, the human players get to change the location of the walls, on their side of the field, just before auton starts?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

My prediction is a kind of 2 entry point (PVC fenced) maze with a 3 point turnstile in the middle of the field which could change the path . Minimal view obstructed

...............................
........... ____..............
...........|......|............
.....||...|____|.....||.....
.....||.......|.........||....
===||==...O.....==||===
.....||....../..\.......||.....
.....||.....____......||.....
..... .....|......|............
...........|____|............
................................

|
O
/ \ Turnstile
____
|.....|
|___| PVC fenced in (possible fixed goal)

=== middle divider

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I dunno about the blind maze... that would probably place too much pressure on rookie teams... since they would have to learn the basics of building, programing, and learn how to drive blind before cometition.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Not to mention very boring for spectators. <heavy sarcasm>Lets all watch robots go into a wooden structure where we cannot see them and come out 2 minutes later. Yay! I can see the public lining up now to watch our exciting events.</heavy sarcasm>

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

the crowd would be able to see them, the drivers wouldnt

or maybe the bot will have to navigate the maze in auton mode - so it doesnt matter if the drivers can see them - all they can do is watch till auton is over.

Re: Ricksta Is Back
 

This is important...and something that almost everyone has overlooked. I have a feeling most rookie teams wouldn't have a chance if they had to deal with stairs. Heck, even more established teams like mine will still struggle if stairs are involved. And as Andrew said...

I'm thinking that the stairs might just be a red herring. As I write this, and looking at the list of members viewing the thread, I see one name in particular that's interesting...dlavery.

Anything you care to share with us, Dave? :D

Re: Ricksta Is Back
 

No problem, I would be glad to. But I am a little busy right now - can we do it later? Just send me a message after, oh, say, noon on Saturday, and then we can talk.

-dave

---------------

Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

great minds think alike. I was thinking the very same thing. except. I don't think it will be blind. most likely if it is a maze it will be constructed of lexan. or some other see through plastic so that even the rookies have a chance to compete. I was also thinking about the walls (if any). maybe there is a fixed method in navigating the field or a method in which teams may create during auton mode so that they may score during the remainder of the match.

its just a hunch.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

do you really think, in the cheap field, that if there was going to be a lexan maze that they would tell us to get materials for a non-see-through maze? i would thing the being able to see thing would be a really important feature in that kind of a field. and while we're on the maze subject, how did we get on the maze subject? i dont see that anywhere in either of the clues. thats just my opinion of whats goin on in here.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

im not sure if anyones noticed but this post was wrong
the model number is 511-5375854 which is the same thing _without_ the brake
you can double check me on that but i believe im correct

Re: Ricksta Is Back
 

Yeah I thought about that, but in my idea there are 2 flat-topped "pyramids", one made of stairs and one made of ramps. The stairs one is obviously worth more, but the ramp one also provides extra points.

I mean, the same thing can be said about rookie teams and stacking. Some pulled it off, but it was still really difficult for a rookie team (let alone a vet team) to build a stacker. But they could still do just fine by knocking over stacks and parking themselves on the top. In my idea, they could knock enemy goals off of the stairs, while simply pushing their goal to the top of the ramp.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

A lot of good ideas here.. however, remember what has to happen for this game to be possible..

Setup- *young* kids have to manuever around this field to reset materials..

The game- the field can't be so high that robots will fall off.. i don't see anything significantly higher than last year's game

Cleanup- here is where most of the ideas seem unfeasible.. if theres a staircase, there has to be a ramp that can also access that place.. i mean, do you think FIRST will really allow pumped-up high school kids to walk backwards down stairs with 130 pound metal robots.. there has to be some easy way to cleanup, easy meaning safe, fast, and effective...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

It sounds like theyre building an outhouse.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

What you say makes sense. They could use the smaller *young* kids to climb into the enclosed maze and retrieve the robots that are stuck there at the end of the match (just kidding, they wouldn't be able to drag out a 130# robot)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Yes ... I just double checked ... and you are correct ... NOW. :ahh:

I might regret this but I'm getting back on my soap box ...

WHEN I ORIGINALLY POSTED THE QUESTION ABOUT THE BRAKE I DOUBLE AND TRIPLE CHECKED THE PART NUMBER ... AND IT WAS THE PART WITH THE BRAKE - IT HAS SINCE BEEN CHANGED ... AGAIN!! Now I know the staff at FIRST works very hard, and this time of year they are extremely busy ... but how difficult is it to check the information BEFORE it is posted?? OR is this just another attempt to interject some engineering/business reality into this effort by changing requirements/information after the initial "reveal". Again I will ask ... WHEN is it safe to order/buy components and feel reasonably sure that the information won't have to be corrected AGAIN? :mad:

OK ... sorry about that ... I feel better now. :p

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

New Idea:

One of the items on the list is two 2"x12"x8' peices of lumber. These are beefy peices, the size used for supporting the second layer of a house. Now, an 8 foot span is a pretty decent distance, you could create some sort of bridge or support.

Secondly, there are three casters. What can you do with three casters? Either there is some sort of turnstyle as has been previously mentioned. or, in my opinion, there is a suspended goal. If the large support beams were hung above the field. You could hook up a rig using the (gasp) three casters as a guide for the hanging goal. One caster on the top of the planks, and one running on each side of the planks. This would create an interesting sliding goal mechanism that would complicate scoring.

Visual (the ball looking things are the casters, the goal would hang below it)

---(_)
---|||
---|||
(_)|||(_)
---|||
---|||


Well do people think?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I like the suspended goal thoery. That would even give a "Box with wheels" (And a pole) something to do. Maybe the objects in the goal count for the diffferent alliances based on where the goal ends up?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

see thats the thing with FIRST. You can't be sure of anything till the official day comes. when is it safe to buy things ? probably as soon as kickoff is done with. even then sizes change but at least it won't change that dramatically as it would days before the competition.

I'm sure at least 3/4 of the teams registered here remembered what happened last year with the toss up on where the nationals would have been. it took FIRTS longer to settle at a location that can handle the load of close to 90000 students and educators etc.... teams couldn't make hotel registrations up until the last couple of weeks during it was either building season or regional competitions i don't remember for sure when everything was settled.

You must be patient with FIRST. in the mean time though its ok to see if the materials are in stock just don't by them. and if you do buy them then be sure your gonna use it. :]

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

FYI for those who might not have seen this yet.

Straight from the "2003 FIRST Robotics Competition Team Forum and Survey Issues and FIRST Corrective Actions"

ISSUE: Teams reported that the field used for 2003 was too expensive for them to build their own fields.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

It was updated again, and the part number they give for the casters is close to the one they had it linked to before, but it does not exist. I have a feeling the it is a typo, but who knows since it has been updated 3 times now.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Back to the topic of Stairway, its been said before that the only reason Dave would post something like that would be if it was impossible to guess anything about the game from him. A stairway is obviously too obvious a reference, so if there are actually stairs in this game, I'm going to buy everyone a taco.

Personally, I think the reference is to poke fun at the ridiculous amount of lumber that we have to buy... you know, "And she's buuuuyyying a stairway, to heaven..."

Besides, with all this talk of Stairway, has it ever occured to anyone that maybe Dave just likes Led Zeppelin?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

theres no typo on the bom right now its just that the caster with that number is on the second page of casters at the company site

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

[C) go over the bar. ;)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

You do realize that we HAVE to hold you to that statement now don't you??
:D

Taco's for Everyone - Dan is the Man
 

I hope SuperDanman owns or works at a Taco Shop! :D

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

6.82 mph huh??

Well, I went bowling tonight and the balls in the lane next to me were traveling from ~9.8 - 23.0 mph

So if it truely is 6.2 mph (10 Ft/sec) then it is slow I guess, but if the field is 30ft long, then it takes 3 seconds max to reach one side?? Wow!!

But, if this is not linear motion but rotational motion then the speed would be relevent to the radius of the wheel or whatever right?

Ok, so since I suck at math... Someone find out what circular speed a 3.5 inch caster would be with a 10 ft/sec linear motion applied!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

if im right, ~37.4rpm

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Where do we buy these casters Home Depot dosn't have anything close serial #s on bins aren't anywhere near. :confused:

Team !! 236 !! Techno Ticks!! now dance!!

Re: Taco's for Everyone - Dan is the Man
 

amen to that TACO BELL FETCH THAT FOOD *makes bell noise*

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Eh, well, we are on the home stretch now, but I have decided to post these anyway. They have to add up to something other than what we are already somewhat confident in. The chances that our guesses here are correct are about as good as flipping 12 pennies and having them all landing on heads.. in the grand scheme of things, thats not bad!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=48
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=67
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=78
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=80
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=106
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=107
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=108

Re: Taco's for Everyone - Dan is the Man
 

....taco bell's going to be busy tonight.

=*(

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Send me a taco...no sour cream, tho...and how bout some nachos too?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Tacos sound good. Just not from Taco Bell, okay? :cool:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

So when do I get my taco?

-dave

p.s. sometimes the best hints are the most obvious.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

That statement makes far too much sense for me to understand it.

Re: BUYING EVERYONE A TACO
 

When do I get my taco.... :cool: