Low Cost Field BOM
 

FIRST has released the field BOM. It is located in the Documents section

Plywood, 2x lumber, PVC pipe and 3 casters.

Let the speculation begin!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

wow...i can only imagine what we will be doing with a toilet flange!
~Mike

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hopefully this means a moving goal of sorts or at least we are assured that something is moving part

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Here for those wondering.

Only three casters this year? and a 4'x8' sheet of plywood? Hmmm ... Maybe it's a giant ramp on wheels!! :ahh:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Maybe FIRST is trying to throw us off this early in the season...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

My initial thoughts are that there is a single, complicated moving object. There is a LOT of wood on the BOM, and the 5" diameter casters, those things are designed to support a lot of weight. I wouldn't be surprised to see a moving platform that robots can climb onto. This could be like 1999 :D (or maybe it is just wishful thinking). In any case I think the wood is probably for a rather complicated moving platform (let's call it the puck). Another possibility I thought of is stairs, judging by the quantity of the 2x4's and 2x6's. Maybe there are stairs in addition to the puck? What do you all think?

- Patrick

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Maybe it's a puck with stairs on it? A giant, multileveled puck on wheels....

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

That's almost like what i was thinking, but then I thought...how much of this wood if for the actual field? and not the goals. I see a return of the puck.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Just a thought that since this is the low cost version.. perhaps there are multiple objects using 3 casters each, but the BOM is just for one of them...

Matt

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Not just a 4'x8' sheet of plywood, but 7 sheets. My guess is that some of this wood will be replaced by lexan when the expensive BOM is released.

I'll leave the real speculation up to those more mechanically gifted than myself. Maybe someone can get it right on like Dr Joe did back in 2002: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...14&postcount=1

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

with all that plywood, does anyone else think that maybe this eyar the playing surface wont be carpet, but instead plywood?!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

odd, the BOM doesnt appear under the Documents and Updates section of the main site.

Only 3 casters???? Hm, that wouldn't be enough to support a mobile goal would it, the 2001 and 2002 goals each had at least 6, 2002's had 8.

me can only wonder what the game is.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Home improvement anyone?
Actually if the goal was light enough and maybe triangular shaped then three wheels should suffice.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The three casters might just be for one game piece too. We could have seven goals/pucks/whatever with three casters each, but the BOM only lists the materials for one. Guess we'll have to wait and see!!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Dear Lord, please don't let it be the return of the puck.

I don't mind moving goals, but let's be real here. The puck's been done before. Any changes to it are merely a hop in comparison to the mental leap that post-1999 teams will have to endure. Not only does the game become unfair, but kindof pointless.

I guess I'm just expecting more out of them than another puck. </ rant> :D

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hey, I've been waiting 4 long years for that puck to return!!! I loved that darn thing! I dont think it would be that redundant if it was multileveled, with a higher platform and no poles to climb. Especially if you had to carry say ohhhh...2 PVC goals onto it?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

What is the puck?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I'd guess its some hexagonal shaped object that only uses half the casters to keep the cost down since they are $22 each, not exactly cheap. But 5 inch casters? Maybe we finally have a 'hilly' field to play on, now that would be interesting.

The puck was in the 99' game, it was on casters and had poles sticking up on each corner. You got points for climbing onto the puck at the end of the match or for hanging from a pole. Then the puck also gave points to an alliance depending on what half of the field it was in.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

There is no way that three casters can account for 7 4x8 sheets of plywood....
I think it can be said with certainty that there will be another ramp/teeter-totter-like feature in the field, and it will be prominent. My money is still on stairs. But three casters is still intriguing.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Thats because you already know how to beat the puck, which proves my point. You know exactly what to build to climb the thing, as opposed to some poor post-99 team that has to deal with figuring that out on top of whatever changes were made to it. So there :-P

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The key to figuring out the game is to look at the most random or unique pieces and figure out their uses... in my opinion, that would be the toilet flanges and the carriage bolts.

Now, first of all, what IS a toilet flange? A quick google search came up with this:

Now, there's two of them, plus the PVC pipe. The pipe probably means there's some kind of bar, but if that's the case, why include the toilet flange? In the LOW COST field, why not just drill 3" holes and insert the PVC pipe that way? I think the PVC isn't going to be used for a bar of some sorts. I don't think the flanges/associated PVC is going to serve the same purpose it did for the 2002 field (something to grab onto) because if its meant to be grabbed onto, PVC is going to break eventually. Like they did for 2002 (if my memory serves me correctly), if the piping was meant to be grabbed, it would be steel piping, but the steel piping is only 2" while the flanges are 3".

My guess takes us back to our childhoods: Merry-go-round. The toilet flanges and the PVC pipe act as the central rotating axle. Perhaps there's a ramp that the robots need to climb to get on top then somehow spin the platform? With the described central support axle, I think only 3 castors would be a reasonable amount of outside support for some spinnage. For a moving object, 3 castors is kinda unstable (especially if the object is so big it needs 5" castors), but if you have a central support, 3 castors seems like just the bare minimum needed.

Then there's the 12 pieces of 1-1/2" PVC piping... perhaps a merry-go-round/2002 goal hybrid?

All this speculation is making me dizzy and leaves me with one last question... with all this spinning, where are the frisbees on the bill of materials?


[EDIT]
Back to the 3-castor issue... the 2002 goal had 8 castors each. This shows that in the past, FIRST was concerned about the stability of the moving object. They even didn't just settle for 4 - they went the full nine-yards and did 8. The castors show that something's going to be moving, but the fact that there are only 3 seriously makes me doubt the object isn't going to be supported elsewhere. That and the merry-go-round idea could explain why there's so much plywood on the list.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Not sure about a merry-go-round. But, based on the fact that there are only three casters, I would also guess there is a rotating goal or obstacle.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

First off, I LOVE your guess. It's so creative! :)

Why not use 3" holes... perhaps it's a rigidity thing? A PVC flange would probably be able to hold a piece much better than a hole because it's a perfect fit.

Maybe the flange is used as a funnel of sorts if upside down? What about using tenis balls... very tiny objects this year. It'd be a change...

And to me, a steel bar means "robot interaction"... in the past, I don't think that robots have been allowed to handle PVC... what strikes me as odd is that there is 120 FEET of PVC. That is a TON! Since this is the low cost version, this all must be REQUIRED to build the playing field.

Guesses are fun. :)

Matt

Matt

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hmmm... what about this- there's some kind of stable obstacle in the middle of the field, but the only way you can get atop is to go up stairs, which are mounted on casters?

nah- that won't happen, most matches would end without any robots actually getting up...


but we gotta keep our minds open for additional "playing items"- like the crates last year.. there will most likely still be 'something' for us to sit on during team meetings, fool around with for the first week, and agonize about during competitions

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

After my post, I went back and edited it for some clarifications. I added that yes, the flange was used in 2002, but it was steel if I remember right, and as Matt Adams stated elegantly, steel means robot interaction. These are PVC flanges, so I doubt the robot will be interacting with these. That's my guess.

IN SUMMARY
1. There's a lot of PVC
2. There's a lot of plywood
3. There's 8lb of screws to go with all that plywood, so lots of construction is going to be needed.
4. There's only 3 castors, but they're super-heavy-duty 5" monsters
5. There are 8 heavy bolts, so assuming the field object is generally symetrical, the number of field object components is going to be either 8 (1 bolt per component), 4 (2 b/c), or 2 (4 b/c). I may be looking in too deep, but since 3 and 6 are not factors of 8, I don't think the field object will be triangular or hexagonal. Rather, I think it will be either 2-sided, 4-sided, or 8-sided.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I wouldn't be so sure of that. This is the low cost version we're talking about, its designed to be cheaper but only for individual team use. Maybe the real field has steel but the low cost uses PVC to cut down on cost. Its probably strong enough for individual testing but not for actual competition, thus only on low cost version.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Lets call it a wedding cake.

Wetzel

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

For some reason, I get the feeling that whatever this is we'll be building will be some kind of elevated playing field piece. I remember someone mentioning having extremely tall goals (maybe like 2002, but much taller) as part of the playing field...maybe that's what the PVC is for...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Good point. On the other hand, steel pipe is also on the list... if they felt it was necessary for steel piping in one place, I'd think they'd have steel piping for all the places its necessary. Unless its something crazy like they expect contact with the 3" piping, but less contact than is needed for the 2" piping... I wish I knew.

Either way, I've got a feeling crab drive robots are going to have an advantage this year...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Lets look at the facts...

Fact 1: Last time there was 3 casters on the playing field, there was a rotating triangular goal.

Fact 2: Smaller flanges were used to support the bars on the puck in 99, the goal posts in 2001, and I believe the center post in 2003.

Now the curious parts...

1. Tons of Plywood and 2 x 12 wood.

2. There is a ton of PVC, but there is also 1 length of 2" steel pipe...kinda odd for a low cost field. So it must be important.

3. There are 2 thicknesses of plywood. Thinking maybe the thicker plywood must have some sort of ability to hold multiple 130lb robots.


With the evidence involved, I have come to the conclusion that there is some form of either, A. Multilevel Platform, and 1 Goal on casters or B. A triangular Stairpuck and multiple PVC goals.

My reasoning for A would be due to the fact that there is so much lumber that some form of large structure is going to be on this field. With only 3 casters, it would be hard to make a structure that big work effectively on wheels, so they would have to be part of the goal(s). I would guess multiple goals, so I think the current BOM only shows the materials for 1.

My reasoning for B would be due to the fact that once again, there is alot of plywood and only 3 wheels for the whole playing field. The goal structures would be PVC to protect from long falls, though that would probably work in both cases. The steel bars would act similar to the original puck in 99.

Either way the game should be very interesting.

Good Luck,
Andy Grady

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

i wat to point out one thing. Like others have said this is a low cost BOM for the field. I believe personally that on the official FIRST field, some of that plywood will be another material. I remember last year on the "cheap" BOM for the field, tht stated you could use plywood in replace for the lexan and HDPE.
~Mike

[edit]look at the image of 5" wheel casters i found, and they are from skyway (a FIRST supplier from past years)!
The large Black one is the 5" caster, i cant find a price though to verify that this could be the "casters" for $22 each.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Maybe the steel part is just for the most critical part that could be damaged by normal practice while the PVC is for less critical parts. For example, if there were posts around a puck-like piece as some people have suggested, one piece could be made from the steel so that a team could practice pulling themselves up while the others are just there as dummy pieces to represent other steel bars. Or something else could be done with the metal for the most load baring parts while the rest are PVC to represent the rest of the steel on the actual piece.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

how about this:

The steel piping would require the robots to limbo under it to reach the ramp platform (3/4 ply wood). PVC guard rails as oppose to lexan and a massive amount of screw suggests a ramp.

?? Could the 3 casters be underneath the ramp (MOBLE RAMP :ahh: ), and form only a fraction of the full size object, like a slice of pie? :yikes:

Perhaps if the ramp is moble then the flanges would keep the piece of pie anchared. But then again, how can a robot push a massive structure with 5 inch casters that requires 3 632 grams (8 pounds) or screws?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Can anyone confirm whether the 5" casters are swivel casters (meaning they can point in any direction), or fixed wheels (such as the skyway ones mentioned above)? If they are fixed wheels (that can not rotate) then I think, given there are three, that it is definately something that rotates about a pivot point in the center, such as a carousel. The wheels would be tangent to the circle. I sure hope not, I really really hate carousels :ahh:

But can you imagine robots fighting not to be thrown off a rotating carousel?

[Edit]I bet these wheels are swivel casters. McMaster #30305T14. 5" diameter, 2" thick. $21.78 each.[/Edit]

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I'm with Grady on this one.

We spent waaaaaaaaaay too much time this afternoon going over the list together (and we'll probably continue to do so all week long...)

Good Luck Guys, we'll find out Saturday.

John

PS - Aidan, happy now? ;)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

OK, I studied the list a bit better now. Here is what puzzles me the most:

How do you mount the 3 casters??
There are only 8 carriage bolts, you would need 12 to mount the casters. And they are too long anyway. There are only 2 hex bolts - maybe it was a mis-print and it should be 12 not 2?? But 3/8" bolts seem about the right size for this size caster.

What are the 3/4" deck screws used for??
What could you possible hold with 3/4" deck screws other than maybe some carpet?

Here is another clue - they are not specifying the caster part number. This means that the height or strength of the caster is not super important.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Whatever the goal/field object I think is triangular. 3 casters in each corner and the 3/4 plywood is probably for the base.

I also noticed a mistake on the BOM... It lists 2x4x8 twice on the list. One has the quantity of 5 and the other is 1. Since the lumber dimensions are listed in order from least to greatest, the other dimension should probably be 2x8x8.

I am almost positive all this stuff makes up several different parts of the field, not just one. I mean how could 3 casters support all this weight, unless the casters are used for something totally different...... :ahh:

Bad Brad

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I think the key to figuring this out will be to determine just what the two lonely 1/4"-20 hex bolts and nuts are used for.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Three ideas:

1.) Having a moving gate to get across the field.
2.) A spinning door, like the ones they have in hotels. There are three parts to the circle and it spins to let robots through.
3.) LOTS OF BLUE MAN INSTRUMENTS! :p

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The key to completing the field object is to find a person who is going to install all 8 pounds of 2-1/2" Deck Screws... :rolleyes: :ahh:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

hm, maybe he's onto something. A sliding gate as a midfield barrier. That could be interesting.

now, just like typical games, all our guesses about some rotating object will be wrong and the use for the casters will be something we never even thought of.

but just to combine the popular guesses, the field will include a rotating 3 sided staircase (so a pyramid of stairs). I think it would be fun.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

....
I love you.

+rep

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

At first I thought the 7 sheets of plywood would be for the outside walls..driver stations...to be replaced by diamond plate. But why 7? You only need 6 for those. That would also account for some of the lumber because of the shelves. But unless they are suggesting you build the field boarders with PVC, I don't think those are for the outside walls. Besides...there are no connections listed.

Next guess: the 7 sheets are for a midfield barrier, to be replace with plexiglass. Think about it...last year, the field was 53 feet long, If I remember correctly. 7 sheets 8' long would be 56 feet long...cut a bit off and you have a nice 4' wall down the middle of the field. Problem is that it isn't supported by anything...unless you use PVC...but again, no connections are listed.

How about that rotating goal? Remember Torroid Terror? How many casters did that goal have (I don't know...I didn't start FIRST until '99...with the beloved puck!). I think that is a very likely idea.

Toilet flanges - we've seen those before, in 2002. They held the center PVC pipe in the goal. Note that there are 2 flanges and 10' of 3" pipe - meaning two 5' pipes either on the same goal or completely away from whatever has the casters. If all the smaller PVC surrounds the central pipe like 2002, that would be way too similar...I wouldn't want to see it.

There are a lot of decking screws. Now, I'm not the biggest handyman around, but when I think decking screws, I think deck...and there certainly is enough plywood to build a deck...and enough lumber to build 4" steps up to it. Think about this though...would FIRST be mean and stick to a rather standard stair (7" rise, 11" run....4" rise, 13" run) and make it difficult to climb without a really specialized mechanism, but more practical for future stair climbing Segway applications....or would we get nice big 36" platform staris so that the robot can fit on the tier all at once. Do this and there is probably enough to make a two or three tierd pyramid in the middle of the field with a spinning goal on top.

And a steel bar at the top that is rotating with the goal that you have to pull yourself up off the tier at the end of the match like 2000. =)

Don't forget the traffic cones!

Maybe I need more sleep...

Kev

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I don't know about anyone else, but the last time I had that much PVC and plywood, I made an 11-foot spud gun and a large target...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

i could see a 3 sided platform 2 with stairs and 1 a steep incline 45 deg + on casters so it moves around on top of this will be a pipe that you have to put rings around but around that is pvc pipe so you can directly do it.. all the plywood isn;t going to be plywood...alot of it will be used to build the structure but the rest will be the dividing walls on the ends of each sectons so robots dont fall off....thats my best guess now



days<5 we shall see

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

hrm, with 3 castors, maybe they could be pulling some kind of wheelbarrow...where you have one castor, but the robot has to lift part of the plywood off the ground before it can push it?

FIRST doesnt make things obvious...so I came up with the first thing I could think of that wasn't so obvious...

Enough guessing for now...save the headaches and use some patience....Saturday is near :)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Circular Saw?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I think it could be a rotating (on castors) "gun" with 12 barrels. The robot could place tennis balls in them and tilt it to roll the ball to the other side of the field. Or maybe even shoot the balls :D

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

THREE Casters???
Perhaps a triangular puck....that would add a neat twist
Only enough room for 3 bots...hmmmmm!!!
Probably, with all this lumber, there will be stairs or elevated goals.
Perhaps platforms throughout the field with scoring objects on them.
I'm just relieved I don't see "inflatable clowns" on the Bill of Materials.
:confused: :confused:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

...so, this is a Field Bill of Materials, right? It's not just for whatever occupies the field, but for the entire field itself.

So, maybe our good friend, the tried and true rectangle, is making a departure?

I mean, why else tell teams what they need to build a field when many, many teams have preexisting fields that were built to the rectangle's specifications?

Hmm.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

one of the member from 408 was telling me that what if its a shape of pyramid with stairs... and the 3 casters on 3 corners... the bot has to try to move that somewhere and then get on top of the stairs... to score....

SOUNDS INSANE TO ME!!!! :ahh:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Actually, i think ya might be a tad off on that. I seem to recall it being discussed last year that the basic field will remain the same. This would definetly appear to be the objects that comprise the field, as denoted by the casters. I personally see absolutely no use for 3 casters in a field minus the elements the comprise it, but if you'd like to enlighten me, feel free.

The just I got from FIRST is the rectangle stays for a long time, BECAUSE so many teams have preexisting fields.

oh, and one more comment:


Let's get ready to RUMMBBLEEEEE!!!!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Wow these are some really crazy ideas, I was thinking maybe all of that plywood, and all those screws would be used for some wierdly shaped thingamabob that the robots need to either get on or push around.

Also maybe the casters are put on to game pieces that balance... off of a center post, but split up so each one moves freely.

-Aaron

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Am I crazy, or did FIRST say that we will have a square field this year? I thought it was for money issues?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Maybe the screws aren't for assembling anything at all ... Can't you just see robots trying to cross a giant pit of screws? Maybe there's a small tri-balance bridge over the top of the pit and if you get pushed in, you're doomed!!!! :p :yikes:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Where's the carpet?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

::is overwhelmed w/ hypothesis::
just some of many ideas/comments:
I find it interesting that there are no fittings of any sort to go w/the 2 smaller size pipes. And that ther is soo much of them. Perhaps some sort of grating out of the steel pipe?? How is it going to be connected to anyhting?

3 castors? odd.....

awful lot of wood. sound slike there will be a platform. I'm guessing the carriage bolts ar for legs of some sort.

I am wondering what 1/4-20 stuf is for. Hex nuts and bolts are not much good through wood without washers. Whay are there only 2 of each. I doubt they arer going in to wood. Lag screws or carriage bolts are far more effective, unless thye are bolting somehting on either side.
This brings up the issue of the 3/4 in deck screws. What are they for? Those are not thick enough to go through much. Perhaps to secure the toilet flange?

I'm thinking on the level of what can possible connect to what?

Why 3/4" and 1/2" inch plywood?

Soo many questions.

my head hurts :confused: :confused:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Note to self: must not dissapoint Jessica. :)

-dave



-----------------------------------

Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

It must really crack you up to read these sort of threads.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Vmax = 10ft/s... it may just be that the thread in which you posted this "end-liner" is leading me on, but is that another thoroughly layered hint of yours (ie. a^2 + ....)? Oh, and I too hope you don't dissapoint Jessica! As in, no puck.. but I guess there is one, eh? :)

Vmax... the only thing I can relate that to is Harmonic/oscillatory/circular motion, with the max velocity occuring when x (displacement from relaxed/rest state) is equal to zero. Does that mean we are starting on a platform and then have to clear some obstacle to get into the "game zone?" Wait, why ask if you won't give an answer? Throw me another one of these, so I can have another thing to chew on.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Grrrrr. I hate it when somebody :caugh:dave:caugh: knows something I don't. 10 ft/sec...

That can't be the max speed of a robot, because you can make a robot go as fast as you like. So there must be something on the field that can achieve a max velocity of 10 ft/sec. Since it is a max velocity, that implies the velocity is not constant. I think Joel is on to something with harmonic motion. Maybe there is a pendulum?

No... this game involves objects dropping from a high elevation. A maximum velocity of 10 m/s would correspond to an object that is in freefall for 0.312 seconds. Corresponding to a height of 1.56 ft. 1.56 ft??

No... clearly that's rediculous. What fun is a 1.56' drop? Maybe there's a ramp that the balls roll down, reaching a maximum VERTICAL velocity at the end of 10 ft/s. Let's say the ramp is at 20 degrees. Then the ball accelerates at sin(20º)*(32 ft/s/s)=10.94 ft/s/s in the direction down the ramp. If the max velocity Dave is talking about is the vertical component, then a ramp height of 4.59' would achieve this velocity. This seems more reasonable. And it corresponds to a ramp length of about 12 ft. Since most of the wood seems to be in lengths of 8 feet, my guess is that the ramp is a bit steeper, say 30º.

My prediction: There are three ramps at 30º on a triangular field up to a central platform (certainty=30%). The central platform can rotate (certainty=20%). There may be some incentive to rotate it in a certain direction. There will be balls (certainty=60%).

- Patrick

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

What are the thoughts of the casters being used for some kind of rolling wall that is mounted in a center track system? On top the wall slides on the steel bar and on the bottom, the casters roll in a channel made with some of the larger sized wood required?

Also if you look on the McMaster Carr website under casters you will find in the category of casters will a weight limit ranging from 200 to 699 pounds, two swivel casters (one has a width of 2" and the other 1.5") for just about 22 dollars a piece. Although this discovery kind of disagrees with what I stated above because you would not need swivel casters in a track type system :confused:

My overall thoughts on stairs are that they can not be higher than a total of 4’ off the carpet of the playing field. The reason I believe this is because of safety.

Going on the idea of steps… you use the 12’ long pieces on either side of the top of a kind of ramp style center field device like we had last year. This allows 6’ on either side. You use the other 2 x 12 as stringers across this upper platform. You use the other 2 x 4 and 2 x 6 to build steps up to this platform. You then use all the plywood for sheeting the surfaces. Even with this idea, I still see something moving around the field that you are required to put things in. The flanges in this case would be at the top of the platform to assist in getting to the top.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Heres some observations from someone who works in construction frequently......

We have some beefy parts that allow for serious loads. That huge steel pipe has got to be for a pivot point. I also envision stairs because of the huge 2X12's. In their vertical oientation, they can carry way more laod than could ever be required to bare the load of a platform, but they would make perfect diagonal runners for stairs.

Also, 1/2" plywood is plenty strong for a lot of weight. Thats what is used on most residential roofs.... But we are given 1 sheet of 3/4. I predict it is for a platform or other area that is traversed frequently.

What does this boil down to?..... A huge strcuture (pendulum?) that pivots about some steel pipe. There will also be extensive plywood structures along with some moible peice (if the castors are left intact?)

aim me: Ih8migs2

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

well.

i dont wanna sound like a sore idiot..its just that..i think itd be a lot better for all of us to stop speculating on these things (its 2:09 AM here), and get some sleep to prepare us for the build season ahead. we all have our views and we'll keep guessing...but to realy what end?

we have engineers/constructionists/students; and other useless genetic accidnets :] all posting for PURE speculation ...hey.. i guess you gusy are that "spirited".

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

But... you forget one thing man! This is just a cheap BOM.
So, those listings might actually be two different materials in the final BOM.

In the cheap BOM of last year, they used plywood to replace the metal grating floor AND the lexan walls and floor as well as the standard wood parts.

As for the Toilet Flange, that was used in 2002 as a sleeve for the longest piece of pvc pipe in the center of the rolling goals.


Oh, BTW, I noticed this on a page on FIRST's website about the Manchester Agenda for the workshops. :

Pressure Sensor Application to a FIRST Robot
David Britton - Texas Instruments

AND

Application of Limit Switches to the FIRST robot
Presented by Rockwell Automation

Just thought I would throw that in there to make your programming team go as crazy as we are going with this BOM trying to figure out how to intergrate that into the big picture!!! lol

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

From doing a bit on construction myself, aren't wall studs put together 30" on center? If using that measurement and assume the 2x6x8's (11) are being used for these "studs", then there is an inner dimmension somwhere near 330" from the two outer studs. 330" = 27 1/5', which is almost 28'. With 7 sheets of 4x8 plywood next to one another, you get 28'. Thus an 28' by 8' rectangle is achieved on only one side of the 2x6's.

This would also explain some of the boxs of deck screws, as it would take a good 1/2lb just for this rectangle.

Sounds like a platform, which will be raised or accessible by whatever the 2x12's are used for. I think the casters and the 3/4" plywood will be used for the *single* goal, and I like the idea that the steel pipe might be for hanging from again.

-Rc

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

[quote=patrickrd]Grrrrr. I hate it when somebody :caugh:dave:caugh: knows something I don't. 10 ft/sec...

I also noticed how Dave had vmax=10ft/sec in the end of his message. If you head over to another thread about possibilities for this years game, he also ends one of his messages with a quote from "Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zepplin. He says:
"Yes, there are two paths you can go by,
But in the long run,
There's still time to change the road you're on."

hmm Stairway and being able to change roads after you have picked one...sounds autonomously suspicious to me. :D

-Rc

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

That just reminded me of the lego league game for this year... maybe this year's FRC game will also include a spot where you start and have to knock a wooden ramp onto the playing field that allows you to enter the rest of the playing field...

and maybe if you can get back into this zone and raise your ramp up, you get points.. hmm... oh the possibilities :]

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Here are some of the things I am wondering about, and some thoughts to go along with them.
1. 2 different thicknesses of plywood (7 sheets of 1/2" and 1 sheet of 3/4") 2. 3/4" That's some heavy plywood.
3. As noted above the 2 hex nuts & bolts?
4. 2 pieces of 2x12x12, that's some big lumber, half the width of the playing field each or... the full width put together.
5. Lots of 2x6's some serious structure.
6. The 3 - 5" wheels and the 3 - 2x12x8, only things in 3's
7. 2 toilet flanges? 1 on top 1 on bottom?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

[quote=JosephM]1.) Having a moving gate to get across the field.


Im not really involved in the lego league but didn't their game have a door or gate of some sort?

-Pat

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I think one thing is obvious. We are definately going to have some sort of structure. A pretty big one. The only thing i can see the 2x12s used for is stairs. The toilet flanges are obviously going with the 3" PVC. Dave has been giving some pretty freaky hints and people seem to have some pretty good insight into their meaning.

The beefy steel pipe. That is definately structural or at least somethign rigid like the bar last year.


The pressure sensor thing. I assume they probably mean either a static pressure sensor or an air pressure sensor. Either way both can be quite useful.

Be careful, Dave can be misleading
 

Or maybe Dave's being his typical self and playing with everyone's mind. I wouldn't put it past him to throw out clues that have multiple meanings, one of which is a common guess for the game (stairs), and expect everyone to bolster their own theories about that common guess. All the while he's snickering because everyone's missing the real meaning of his hints. Anyone remember last year's quadratic equation? Didn't we all guess that the game was about projectiles?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hey folks!

Metal in Motion has a thread on their site with some interesting ideas. www.metalinmotion.com

Go to the General Discussion forum on the message board.
Go to the thread that is titled Playing Field BOM is out!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hmm...maybe it's just me, but I'm thinking of a gigantic, three-paneled rotating gate...using the unit circle as an example, we'd have gates at the 120 degree, 240, and 360 degree spots, with a castor on the bottom of each gate.

Hard to explain and probably completely wrong, but at least I know what I'm talking about...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

OOH! OOH! KOTH with three connect rotating stairs instead of a ramp!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Those would be massive studs, normal studs are 2x4s. We used 8x8s to support our hottub deck(and water is HEAVY). So perhaps we are getting our water game now that we have the structure to support it?


Also found this when I googled Vmax=10ft/sec.
How can I use the power from a rubber band to it's fullest?


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know nobody knows
where it comes and where it goes
I know it's everybody sin
You got to lose to know how to win

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Hey guys, just wanted to update you on the cheap BOM for the field, FIRST updated it today and fixed some errors and added more info. This includes the casters that will be used and fixed some plywood/lumber sizes.

Cheap BOM for 2004 FIRST Game Field!

~Mike

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Looks like they didn't fix everything. The link for the casters lists the price as $11.92 each, which is far from the $22 listed on the BOM. Maybe they really meant 6 casters :yikes:

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Looks like Joel was on to something in the official email blast just released it gives that as a hint!!!!!!!!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The castors have now been specified as swivel castors.

Theater tech. wisdom teaches us that you do not use swivel castors on anything that has to rotate in place. When it changes direction, the castor has to swing around and it can bind when it drags the wheels sideways. If something needs to rotate, non-swivel castors arranged around the circumference, tangential to the rotation are the way to go.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

"Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

Hm, well after looking at those 2 hints I came up with a few possibilities:

1) Based on Joel J.'s idea about starting on a platform, perhaps we are starting on a mobile 3-sided staircase pyramid

2) the second hint, being a quote from Stairway to Heaven could just be the suggestion of stairs.

3) or the second hint could mean that there is a midfield barrier with 2 ways of getting across. 1 of those ways could (and hopefully will) be a staircase. The other way, not sure.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I really like the ideas that have been throwing around.

One thing I know for certain, that if there are stairs, they are not going to be like standard stairs, and they are not going to be tall. Imagine a pushing match, or a robot falling down a flight of stairs....not pretty.

Therefore, i do like the idea of platforms, each raised maybe 4" above the previous one.

I also am a little shocked that the "cheap" bill of materials comes to nearly $500 dollars. I also wonder if first has put any thought into making this field easy to assemble and/or portable. Not every team has that much money, or that much space to work with.

Still, only 4 days left to find out if any of this speculation was worthwhile.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

perhaps, i know this is completely against what people are saying out there, that the quote's origin is an attempt to throw people on the wrong track. ("stairway to heaven"...stairs) and if it is, its done a good job. but what ive gotten from that quote is that maybe theyre reffering to autonomous v. manual control and that you can switch at any time, like the amount of time or when is up to you for using autonomous. i just thought id change the direction of thought in here. :D

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Completely original idea...I like it.

I have no idea if that's what FIRST has in store for us, but it would make for a very interesting game. Seems like human control would make a great "long road" to me...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

"To" and "Heaven" are just as equally implied by the reference to "Stairway to Heaven" as the word "Stairway"...

I'd pay more attention to the reference to two roads and "time"...Especially with the time-dependence of the 10 ft/sec bit...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Anyone notice the change of other materials? Now we only have a total of 5 2"x4"x8' and now 3 2"x12"x8'. Your thoughts on why this changed and if it is going to keep changing until kick-off?

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I had been pushing for this kind of idea, with a multiplier for the amount of time in Autonomous, for a while now and I'm glad someone has found a way to tie it in with the new clues.

I hope you're right, I like this interpretation a lot better than the stairs :).

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Whatever big wooden things are part of the field don't have to have casters to move. I'm picturing the large wooden stairs supported by some of the 2x8's where it would take alot of force to move them around the field, and the "vmax = 10f/s" is a reccomendation, in that you don't want a fast robot, you just want a really powerful robot that can move these stairs (or possibly ramps, just something to get your robot higher). Humans use stairs because we like to stand on horizontal surfaces, but anything that serves the same purpose - an increase in elevation - for wheeled things is a ramp (think handicapped access ramps) so this wood could be for ramps that are used to get over a barrier. The PVC would make a good barrier, because it could be used to make a wall that you coul see through, but would prevent passage below a certain height (lumber sticking up with holes drilled in it would hold up the pipe horizontally). In this case, the PVC would not have to take a beating, if you broke the PVC, you shouldn't have touched it in the same place.

Rambling ideas, but I think torque will be important, not speed.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I'm looking at the BOM, and I'm wondering is this for the TOTAL field? I'm sure FIRST realizes how many of us like to take what they give us and put it into every sitituation - but to throw us a curve ball - did they even include the player stations/player sheilding?!

I'm looking at this - and I can't even beging saying all the thoughts that I have. Could the two 12' pieces be for the middle of the field? Or be cut? Or even may be for someing that we aren't thinking of. I can't wait for this year to begin, I think FIRST has a suprise for ALL of us in store this year...:)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I have been doing alot of thought on this idea before i have posted anything. What i have come up with is that your idea of the multiple roads with the time referance is going to be more crucial then the stairways to heaven quote. I think that we may end in an auton state in which there are 2 doors opened. they both lead to the same position but one has more obsticles to get there in. I think the amount of time compared to route you take can act as a multiplier. This is just my thoughts but i think it seems relavent enough to post.
~Mike

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I don't think the center stucture will be mobile at all.

I imagine the center structure being a series of ramps and stairs. There will probably be a flat surface at the top. I'm guessing there will be mobile objects, similar to 2002, but not necessarily to hold scoring objects (but probably) which we will have to carry up the stairs/ramps. Maybe one structure is made completely of ramps and will be worth less than the one made of stairs. The PVC will almost definately be used to hold some sort of scoring object like in 2002, but I'm not sure whether they will be on the mobile objects or on the center structure. The 3 castors will be for 1 scoring object. The castors are big so they can climb the stairs (2" thick wood so I'm guessing either 2" or 4" stairs). I bet there will be at least 2 mobile scoring objects, but since this is the "low cost" version they only give us supplies for 1.

The steel bar might be for hanging. They give us 2 clamps for it but only 1 long bar. Unless they are having us cut the steel bar (I hope not) then it will probably be suspended across the center of the structure much like 2000. If not hanging them definately some sort of robot interaction.

Anyway, that's my best guess.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

Im picturing something like a free spinning merry-go-round that is 18" high

with a ramp on one side that you can use to get onto it (to place scoring objects in a goal in the center)

but once you are on it, if another bot rotates it, you wont be able to go back down the ramp you came up - you will have to JUMP OFF!

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The caster size was dropped down from 5 inch to 3.5 inch. Who knows if it will change again by the time saturday comes around. Something tells me that there won't be any more than 1 of these stairs if any at all. I'd guess it maybe include something similar to the 2001 feild barrier that had a 3 inch step to go over while going under the 14 inch bar.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

We're probably all way way off. But only four more sleepless nights.

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I soo want another hanging year. That was great in 2000

Ricksta Is Back
 

Ricksta's back in action and has some predictions/things to remember for this years game.

1. Everyone is coming up with uber complicated "center platforms" etc. Remember the game needs to be simple enough even for a poor little rookie team to surivie in (ie. a box with 4 wheels must be competitive in some small way).

2. I belive the stairway to heaven comment refers to a stairway to either a scoring object or goal. possibly multiple stair ways with the steeper stairs leading to higher point values.

3. Autonomous was big in 2003. It *should* be back in '04. I'm thinking a ramp again.

4. Steel bar could be some sort of limbo bar for ramp in middle ( if there is a ramp of course). This could be a consequence for using a shallow ramp rather than the steep staircase.

5. Casters on a mobile goal. Only show 3 for one goal.

6. Finish/end Zones were important for the past 3 games, expect them to be in this game (ie on top of ramp/stairs or an endzone of sorts)

Bottom line:

• Huge plywood wall dividing the field into blue and red.
• 3 ways across: shallow ramp, regular staircase, steep staircase.
• Each staircase/ramp leads to scoring object/goal/zone with value based on difficulty to reach it (ie high difficulty high score).
• Autonomous will be important
• Whatever the game is it looks like it will fun for rookies and veterans alike.

Oh yeah and ill be at kickoff so see ya all there.

Re: Ricksta Is Back
 

So, you think maybe that your alliance and you will have to posistion a goal next to a staircase, while the other alliance partner scores from atop the stairs? that'd be cool ;)

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

This is what I have come up with based on this clue. I think it will be some kind of ramp structure. It would zig-zag back and forth on its way to the top, like a winding uphill road. But it can also be approached head on in a stair like way. Well thats two paths anyway.

-------
| |_
| top \
| _____ |
/ ______ /
|_______ \
/ _______|
|________

floor

You get the idea
Well, Just a guess...

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

I dont think the wall is a likely possibility. Remember the driver setup...driver on opposite side of field to driver. This means if there was a wall we would either need real good autonomous or a spotter. But, remember, FIRST has done some crazy things in the past, so we'll just have to wait+see

Re: Low Cost Field BOM
 

The wall wouldnt be plywood....probably lexan so u could see through to the other side...it is the low cost field BOM after all.