FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

So it's offical, the 2004 game is FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar.
Now that the game is out, what do people think? Personally, I've seen better, but the game may just take some time to get used to.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I like the game. It appears very intersting.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I think that the initial reaction is that this isn't challenging and that it's mildly repetitive. However I'm enthusiastic about it - I think that once people start getting into it more and playing with the field and running scenarios - they'll start seeing how complex and fun this game seems to be. Of course, I just saw it a few minutes ago so don't take my word for it! ;)

Good luck to all! Especially 1020! (This year, use the kit's drive train guys!)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I don't like the idea that you can balance six weeks of hard work on a robot with a person that is great at basketball, or had a field to practice on.

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It really should be just as easy to take their balls out of their goals.

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It's really nice to see that the human player will have more importance now, but I tink FIRST became a little carried away with the power to the human player. It's a little disturbing at first glance of how the scoring will be done, I need to think about it more before reacting. I guess in the long run it will be somewhat equivalent to past years multiplication of losers score. I don't think the field will be opened up as much as in the past... average scores will be much closer. :ahh:

no descoring
 

It said in the rules no de-scoring, so no taking balls out of goals

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Well with a little practice anyone could become good at throwing the balls into the stationary goal. And you really dont need an entier field to practice throwing, just something like a volleyball net and the static goal.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'm not too intrigued by the game, but I don't think it's a bad game. It's slightly disappointing to see that it cumulates elements of past games (at least there isn't a puck ;) ) because I was really hoping for something completely different. I wanted a maze. lol.

"FIRST Frenzy" makes sense don't you think? Elements of past games that absolutly drove people mad!!

Edit: The clue was far too obvious and I really didn't want stairs. I was hoping for some obscure meaning to it like the parabolic equation last year. Ah wells... stairs it is!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

First did throw a lot of power at the human player, but the pull-ups and the 2x ball give the robot a big influence. My father, Dave Lavery, has done a lot of things about how robots and humans will both perform better when used together. A good basketball player may be able to get you 75 points but an opponent who drops balls into the mobile goal and tops it off could get 100 points. A good basketball player helps, but an okay one and good strategy will win.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

yeah, it seemed like the human players were both scoring points pretty easily.. though I guess they've had a lot of practice...

anyone else felt it took too long to show the game? I think it was 1 hour and 30 minutes before they finally showed the animation.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

[quote=Poz}
anyone else felt it took too long to show the game? I think it was 1 hour and 30 minutes before they finally showed the animation.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that the norm here? ; )

No de-scoring... how about blocking?

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I don't like how it basically IS previous years' games. Veteran teams that have done the hanging-from-a-bar game and teams that have played 2002 soccer-balls-in-goals game well (*looks at RAGE*) have an enormous advantage - all they need to do is take their previous mechanisms and put them on a new robot. Yeah, RAGE can't use their ultra-efficient ball-dumper again because of that only-human-player-puts-balls-in rule, but teams like them do know what's going to work in terms of goal manipulation and such.

FIRST said they were trying to make it attractive to rookies to some extent - I think they did exactly the opposite: the veteran teams that have played the games 2, 3, 4 years ago HAVE DONE all of the elements of this game before - unlike the veterans, rookies have no idea what works and what doesn't. I was expecting FIRST to be a bit more creative.

Thumbs down.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Pteryxx wrote
No de-scoring... how about blocking?


Nop sorry, none of that either...

<G20> ROBOTS cannot GOALTEND either the Mobile or Stationary Goals. If a ROBOT GOALTENDs or de-SCORES any SMALL ball, the referee will throw a green penalty flag and the opponent’s final score will be increased by twice the value of that SMALL ball.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

This isnt previous games though, although you do raise a point of how it combines many aspects of them. Note the games zone zeal and the one from the year b4 it both had the balls in goals, but they were very different. And now there is the W-L effect, changing strategies during the qualification rounds. And no pre-manufactured part(parts you built b4 build season) may be included on your robot, so no they cant just grab an arm of the 3 years agos bot and put it on, plus part requirments have changed, making many old parts illegal.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

2000 + 2001 + 2002 = 2004

Best of three worlds!!!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I didn't mean using old parts literly. I meant, for example, the teams that have built hanging arms before - they've built them, they've tested them before, they know what works and what doesn't... teams that haven't done them - we're starting from scratch.

I realize coming up with new games is difficult, but I really don't like how they just took challenges from old games and combined them into one new game - teams that have solved those challenges have an enormous advantage.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I see MUCH less interaction between opposing robots. Can anybody tell me, since I can't seem to easily find it, do the starting position of the blue robots start on the red side, like last year, or do the blue robots start in the blue side, the red in the red??

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Also, see the new weight requirement. If you build a robot with one base with five different "tops" to do five different things based on your alliance partner, the 130 lb limit is for the base + all five parts together...at the same time...

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I like that. It means that teams who don't have the resources or skills to be modular aren't at a weight disadvantage.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I think FIRST didn't concentrate on the game as much as they did on the kit of parts which from the robot side of it is a good thing. Looks like they're more interested in how the teams will use the additional sensors and new C programming capabilities.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

vertical speeed limit, i understand it but its very annoing

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Actually similarities of the 1999 game can be found with the climbing aspect and the puck (goal).
Eventhough it IS a new game... it does contain similar aspects of past years, and there isn't anyway of getting by that.

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I'm scared. Hold me mommie.... :(

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Just because there is a hanging bar doesn't make it similar to the 2000 bar. I'm not sure how high that bar was, but it looked like around 5 feet, and robots could reach it easily.

This one is 10 feet off the ground and requires completely different components to reach it.

Just because the goals are similar to 2002 doesn't make it similar to that either. Goal grabbers aren't going to help much and pushing the goals around will be sufficient. Being able to pick up small balls may be an option for dumping them to the human player, but it is also effective to just push them in.

The only design I see giving some teams an advantage is the big balls. Teams can use their grabbers from 2001.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Exactly my thoughs, Jay and Ashley.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I agree too. I like the game this year. Jay, you were correct, the 2000 bar was 5 feet tall, totally different than the 10 foot bar this year.

I like the game better than last year, because the robot actually need to be able to do things to win consistently. A box on wheels that is driven well may funnel balls to the human player, but needs to be able to do more than that to win.

I guess there is much less luck involved.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'd have to agree with you there. Even though I became involved with FIRST starting with 2002, I've read about previous games.

Personally, I was not a fan of last years game. However, I really do love this years game.

I think it will open many new doors and throw so many different options onto the playing field. ;)

I also think that (with the exception of the two 10 pt balls) this year's game is fairly easy to explain. No more zones to have to deal with etc. Either your on the bar or off, either you have balls in the goals or you don't. Yes, the big 2x ball does make it a bit harder to explain, but it truly is needed to add the zest that we all desire.

Also, there are layers of the game that extend beond the end spectator. There are the white lines, the infered beacon - These add so many different elements to the tech. ppl, but are not required to understand the game.

Also, from a Dean / Woody point of view, having the robot & human interaction is a metaphor to how robotics help people in the real world. For spectators, the throwing of the ball reminds them of a game which is allready loved.

If I had three thumbs, i'd give it to this game. There are so many challanges: stairs, moving & non-moving goals, different size balls, hanging, new sensors, etc. While it does contain parts of past games, you now want a robot to do many of these new tasks, etc..

It will be a very intresting season, & I can't wait to see how it turns out!

Jack

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Like others, my first reaction was that this game combined experience from 99-02. Sure, RAGE and others had great strategies then, but havn't many of their members graduated? I think this game will encourage alumni to regain interest and mentor their former teams. Also, those graduates who moved on to college teams will have the ability to strengthen their new teams with ideas from past seasons. Personally, as you mentioned, 173, 69, 177, 47, 71...(insert long list of experienced teams here) will have an advantage. Hopefully they'll share their knowledge and mentor rookie teams.

Good Luck.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

moving the goals wont be of any significance this except to get them away from the opposing human players, but if ur team is looking to move them, note than u can only grab the goal by the metal edge on top of platform (<G24>)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Last year's game was great, but I can already tell that this game is going to top it. It's impossible to miss the elements taken from the 2000, 2001, and 2002 games, but the really cool thing are the balls above the player station... that is just so cool. I think it's great that the human player has so much importance this year too, it'll create a whole new level of competing and an unpredictible outcome almost everytime...

The FIRST peoples have really created a great game this year :) Now to strategize and mobilize ... :D

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I think its a good balance and will be much more exciting to watch than last year. Games will be won by teams that can play the game well, not necessarily the fanciest robot. Better get those kids shooting free throws at lunchtime.

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I LOVE the game, my whole team loves it. There are so many different ways you can solve the puzzle. I also love the twist that everyone gets the loser score, (They are really hammering the idea of Gracious Professionalism, don't ya think?) Right now we are still discussing strategy before we decide what robot design would accomplish that strategy. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE!!!!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I give the game two thumbs up. :yikes: I liked the integration of previous games and thought that there were enough changes to prevent veterans from having too much of an advantage. One comparison that I haven't heard is that in the 1992 competition (the very first competition) teams had to grab tennis balls off of wooden pegs, much like we neet to take the 10pt. balls off of the tees.

My interpretation is that the red alliance starts in front of the red player stations. I agree that this means less interaction between the alliances, and I like this. Over the past years the competitions have been getting rougher. I think that this was FIRST's way of keeping the competition from becoming Battlebots.

As far as manipulating the goals, I think that taking the ball off of your mobile goal and being able to pull it closer to your human players will help in scoring more balls than if your human players just shot at the stationary goal.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

When I first saw the field at the beginning of the animation, my jaw dropped. I thought it looked so hard. And the rest of my team around me was in the same state of disbelief. Sure, we won SPBLI regional, but we weren't sure about this one. After they started talking about it, it didn't seem that bad.

I'm definately a fan of this year's game. Then again, 870 is only a 3rd year team and we weren't around when there were other hanging bar games. The games that I've played in have had one or two strategies or "roads" but this year, as they say, we can change that. There are so many different options with what can be done. Mechanical and Human cooperation is stressed and that's probably for the best. We can't just build our robot and say that it's done and can do anything. No matter what, it will need human help and that's the point. And anybody can get skill at foul shots with the rubber balls if they practice enough.

I can't wait to start building and am already writhing with excitement about the competitions. :D

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'm mad!!!! We went to kick off... Watched it all the way through(and it was very long this year but still good)... Right when it said FIRST Frenzy for the animation the satellite decided to move and we missed half of the game... This stinks cause it puts us behind... But other than that the game looks awesome and I can't wait!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'm going to have to partially disagree on that... there will be less interaction, but there's only so much room on that bar. I have a feelings we'll be seeing a few flying robots this year :]

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Yea...I would have to agree on that.

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At least this year's game won't be dominated by short tank bot with powerful engines that can push everybody else around like they have the last couple of years. I think we'll se an interesting variety of robots this year.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I love it, personally. It sounds like a great game, and an exciting game, and I love the aspects of all the games from the last 5 years or so brought back to life. It should be a great season, and I'm very excited to see all the interesting ideas people will come up with to deal with this year's game.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

this year sound real neat and exciting. i feel it should be somewhat easy.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Hmmm I was a bit disappointed, mostly because of the power given to the human player (is this NBA? National Basketball-Bot Association?) but the other than that I was quite pleased...I thought the hanging-pole thing was great along with the steps. I'm sure once we get things up and going we'll be much more enthusiastic about the idea.

Oh, yes, I agree that the kickoff took too long...too much BLABLABLA pep talk and not enough of what we came to see!...oh yeah, besides, what's up with Britney Spears? (wink wink)!

-----------------------
Visit www.tribotecteam.com ...home to the 3rd Brazilian team!!!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I think this years game is to get people to think of what human/robot interaction can acheive not only on the playing field, but everywhere. And it does a good job at that. But it does favor larger teams somewhat because they have a higher chance of someone being good at basketball on the team, but if teams do a good job at outreach and find someone within the school to be there human player that shouldnt be a factor. Plus the small mobile goals allow people to pretty much dump ball into them for the teams with lesser human players. And the caps and bar can help balance the odds also. But for the teams that dont know ways to acheive these goals, they can consult veteran teams if there are any near them. And several veteran teams attempted those challenges in other ways so they might not even know the solutions to them. And many rookie members or 2nd year members dont know them anyway, so most teams only have a few who remember the solutions to those challenges. The solutions arnt as complex as you might think, remember, the answer could be right in front of your nose. For every good idea there are 99 bad ones. So keep brainstorming and you will come up with a solution.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

the game is great... but it does relate to the game of 2000 and 2001. it would probalby be hard for some rookie teams (since i saw the actual field infront of me today) some teams might go for a narrower robot if they decide to go up the stairs. i know that i like the game, my teams like it... and we are going to have fun. i have a feeling that it will be a good year. (every years are but this one will be another one)... GOOD LUCK TO ALL!! :p

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

When the animation first played it confused me and I was kind of scared. But once they did a couple of demos and explained a few things it was much more clear. I think it'll be a great game and I'm really looking forward to brainstorming about it (even more than I have for the past three hours while driving home from the remote kickoff). Teams that are around from 2000 will definitely have an advantage if they want the extra points.
I find the 0-2 QP range rather interesting. That still confuses me a bit (I'm sure I'll figure it out though).
Go infra-red sensors!!1! Yes!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Personally, I like this game a lot. Simple concept, but it's going to be very fun to watch...and to compete in.

I'm just hoping that 818's robot will do some great things this year... :)

[edit]Ooh...I like this likes/dislikes list idea, so...

Likes:
-All of the fun parts of the past five games rolled into one! Great for us who are relatively new to FIRST!
-Game will probably lead to diverse robot designs
-Game has two levels: basic ball-pushing (rookie) and going for the bar and bonus balls (veteran)

Dislikes:
-Robots falling off the bar onto others...that could be VERY bad
-Human players almost too important in the game
-No clowns

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Hmm, Thumbs Down

I liked the game a lot, untill they mentioned the thing where all four teams get the losers score.

Where in the world is the motivation to do win? Even if you win ever single match, you could lose a spot in the top 8 because other teams were placed, with FIRST's oh-so-random match choosing, with very good teams.

And, the final matches are both complicated and confusing. Why have a point system? Isn't a win a win? Why make it 2 points for win, 0 points for lose, 1 for tie. Isnt it the same thing? If you win twice, dont you win!? Even win once, tie second. You still won.

As a driver, i like the feeling of competing against another team. I would rather not work with my opponent to achieve a higher score. All the exciting things will be left to the end; who can get up on the bar, and who can move the 2x multiplier. This equals a boaring game in my mind.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

although i am a fan of this game, i can't give it a thumbs up, not yet, anyway. i also have a couple of points to make. the stairs - not really that big of a deal, if your wheels are large enough they'll just seem like a speed bump. as well, on the not being able to goaltend, is it possible however to keep the goal as perhaps a moving target thus making scoring harder? i also agree with alex (magnasmific) that the idea of QPs is a really big turn-off. i don't like that at all, it gives away the whole idea of wanting to win, which i guess could be seen as good, but then again, it just gives such a larger chance of fixed matches. i also don't like the dependency on the human player, yes, it's nice to give them a chance to do something for more than 10 seconds, but it takes away largely from the engineering aspects of the robot, which i think will just cause less expert designs and improvement, which last time i checked, was something FIRST was big on. i'm hoping as the season goes on my opinions will change, especially come the NJ Regional in week 1, but that's my $0.02 for now.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

The new QP system is very similar to pre-alliance FIRST. You would be suprised at how few teams actually tie....and heck, back then they had 4 less qualifying matches! I'm just saying you might want to hold out and wait on this one to see how it turns out. As for the idea that the mixture of old game elements gives vets an advantage, I completely disagree. When you take a bunch of elements and you mix them together, the reaction of the robots will always be different because the match flow will change. I am looking at this game right now and I can't pull anything from past games for strategy right off. The only thing that might help are knowledge of mechanisms, but that doesn't necessarily mean a thing. Plus, when it comes to scoring the little balls, well, the chute for the human is right on the ground...should be fairly easy for EVERY team to do.

We shall see though, I'd say, just wait before you pass true judgement on this one. Remember, as many of these competitions as you see, you can never predict what is going to happen when you get the collective brainchild of tens of thousands of crazy students and engineers on the field!

Good Luck to all!
-Andy Grady

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

The best thing I like about this game is that it's easy to build a robot that simply gets balls to the human player (for rookie teams) which is very important, otherwise, well, no points for you... but it's also a great challenge to those experienced teams, with the 2x ball and bar, who have the knowledge and/or funds to build a robot that goes beyond everything else...

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Its like in hockey, you get 2 pts for a win, 1 for a tie, and 0 for a loss.
Say a team had 5 wins, 2 losses, and 1 tie(5-2-1) they would receive 11 pts.
2pts a win times 5 wins=10
+
1 pt for a tie times 1 tie=1
11 pts.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

that's exactly the way one of my team members explained it to me, but still, i'm not a fan, yes, you get some benefits for winning, but it just doesn't compare

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'm a little confused about the qualifying points and ranking points. What I got from the rules was that every team would be put into teirs based on how many QP's they had (win=2, tie=1, loss=0). Then the RP's would be used to rank teams within teirs. If there are 2 teams with the same qualifying score and ranking score, then they would use their highest match score. If they were still tied they would randomly pick who got sceeded higher. If this is right then there is deffinately motivation to win. If you win all 8 of your matches, even if they are all shut outs, it is highly unlikely that 8 other teams will also be undefeated, so you are very likely going to get a spot in the elimination rounds.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

This is a great combination of games of past and new. It will be exiting and a challenge but thats what we're all about isn't it?
The only question I have is that 10 ft high bar. hmmm....



Always, the kid in the red hat.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I must say, I love the game. Everyone else has already mentioned the good points, so I'm not going to be repetitive. I do have a question for one of the Lavery's/anyone though... why is there no descoring? I understand gracious professionalism, but it seems that if the opponent is just crushing you with a higher score, why can't you knock off their 2x multiplier or something? Maybe not allow complete descoring, but I think that if you could touch that 2x multiplier, it would make a competition in the end to knock off that 2x multiplier AND get on the bar... which would make even more strategy be needed in my opinion. I'd love to see some other opinions on this though. But, I love the game... very nice, and I know that there will be MANY amazing strategies this year, which I am eager to see. Good luck everyone.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

top 6 reasons why i love this game...

1. there are so many paths that can be taken... which will lead to more variety in robots.

2. the human player element will even out the advantage veterans have over rookies

3. easy to watch, yet tough to play, so much strategy involved.

4. short length of bar equals battling for bar, possible bots falling

5. ideas from past years were slightly modified and rules were changed, so the exact same design from past years cannot be used again for your robot (modification is necessary).
6. NO INFLATABLE CLOWNS!!!!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

yes! that is exactly what makes me happy about this game! (and Mr. Cokeley too i'm sure as this means he gets to live past tonight =) *evil laugh*)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

EDIT{this is not a new requirement, this is how it has always been - when you got your bot inspected, weighted and 'boxed' all your modules had to be attached - you were free to take things off for a match if you wanted, but you could not have an unlimited box-o-attachements that you pulled modules out of whenever you felt like it.} EDIT - I might have been mistaken on this for last year - I know this was the case in previous years - but last year you might have been able to have multiple configurations, and weigh each one separately - but this year for sure everything must be on the bot at the same time when its inspected, weighed, boxed... after that you are free to take things off, but not replace them with something different.

the 2X ball - I dont see it stated anywhere that you cant snatch the 2x ball off your opponents goal - since there are only 3 of them, and 4 goals, I expect you will see this - that is not descoring, its de-multiplying.

I like the game this year. It puts more emphasis on building a positive machine - a machine that can do something beside devistate the field and push the other bots around. If you want to win your bot must be able to perform ball handling / stair climbing / bar chinning functions

and since there are several ways to score points, its unlikely that one robot will be able to do them all. In fact, there is not enough time to do everything. With 24 balls on your side of the field that only gives you 4 or 5 seconds (each) to retrieve them and have the human player shoot them - if you are going after the 2X balls, and you are dragging the porta-goal around, and you are going to climb the corporate stairway and hang yourself, well... it would be impossible to do everything in 120 seconds

teams are going to have to pick and choose - teams are going to have to choose complementary allance partners for the the playoffs

teams are going to have to choose to focus on the stationary goal, or the porta-goal (which cannot hold all 24 balls from your side BTW)

this is an excellent emulation of real engineering. There are many options, no one right answer for everyone - and in the spirit of FIRST you will have to build a machine that is productive on the field, one that can do more than interfere, inhibit and be destructive, or you wont stand a chance.

Whoever came up with this game, I have only TWO WORDS for you!

Nicely done!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I'm still not to sure what I think about this game, time will tell. But I do have a few problems with it, this is one of them

The fact that only the human players are allowed to score the small balls bothers me. I know FIRST seems to want to emphasize human-robot partnership, but think about it. Designing a robot to put balls in that small mobile goal is not hard. But, designing a robot to put balls in that static goal, which is on the platform by the stairs and whose lowest poles are 6 feet high, is much more difficult to design (especially if you're trying to make a ball device that can load into a small goal, and a big goal) Hence, I think if the robot was allowed to score the small balls, the human players would still be extremely important by sheer virtue of the fact that robots would have a rather tough time getting balls in that big goal. Thus, I think FIRST could still have achieved its goal of having the human player be extremely important. Get what I'm saying?

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I like the game.
Dislikes:
1) Everyone gets looser's score.
2) to confusing of a qualification match system

Likes:
1) plenty of variety
2) no easy domination by teams with powerful drive trains (actually power-drives dont have much use in this game it seems)
3) strategy seems to be way more important
4) I like how they combined concepts from 2000 (hang from the bar), 2001 (big balls), 2002 (mobile goals), and 2003 (big central ramp/platform structure)
5) I like how they made it so robots and human players have to work together
6) no need for battlebots shoving matches like last year, although the bar might provide some skirmishes

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I completely agree with this. For the past 2 years or so i have seen teams building 'tank' like robots that just knock everyone out of the way. Of course these designs were the most practical for thier events and produced good results, As we created in our 2002 rookie season. We simply pushed anyone out of our way and robots that had functions and moving componets for ball handling stood no chance. I saw this and i hoped the 2003 game would have a more task oriented game, emlinating the 'Tanks'. But to no avail.

This year... my hopes are answered. This year it seems that there will most likey be a small amount of contact between robots (maybe a little when hanging on the bar?). The robots this year will most likely have to have special componets for ball handling, hanging, etc. First seems to be getting back to its roots. Thats what its all about.

Thumbs up for this one

Another intersting thing that someone pointed out is the LED lights, instead of the rotating ones. I know that many teams use led lights to light underside of thier robots as many have done in years past. I am wondering if this lighting will possibly confuse some drivers. Maybe first will do away with lighting under robots?

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I’m not surprised....more moaning and groaning already. It doesn't surprise me much anymore and honestly I am sick of it, and I know for a fact most people on these boards are too.


I think this game is great. The concept is brilliant. Take the crazy part of the previous games and put it all into one. The slick steps, 10 foot bar, and multiplier balls are a real stroke of genius. I don’t care if anyone disagrees with me, but I personally like the game (much more then the 2001 game ;)).

-D.J.


Edit:


So basically you don't like the fact that the total domination factor is gone for qual rounds. What is so hard about the qual system?

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

this year we can build something that functions like a robot

instead of a radio controlled bulldozer! ::yeah!::

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Although it accomplishes nothing to complain, there's no problem with having a discussion about our likes and dislikes about the game. If you don't like what other people have to say, don't complain about their complaining. Offer an argument back.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I think the FIRST Frenzy looks really good. I don't think reusing the 1999-2002 ideas will really help teams much. With team turnover, fading memories, and advancements in components/designs/techniques I doubt you'll see many of the mechanisms from the 99 season for gaining the platforms.

Likes:
No descoring - I've helped build descoring robots other years, but I can't say that I've ever wanted to build one. In industry or business, you hardly ever have something accomplished that someone else destroys for you. Lawyers and criminals are the only ones I can think of. ;)

Less Robot Contact - Although there will be skirmishes around the field, and a lot of competition at the bar, it should not be like the pushing matches of the last two years.

Dislikes:
I'd like to be able to score the small balls with the robots.

By the end of the season, my opinions are likely to be different. That seems to be one of the main constants of FIRST games.

I like this years game. But even more, I like the incredible discussion in this thread. Lots of opinions, explained well, with some give and take but overall respect shown for each other. If the forums stay this civilized throughout the season, it can't help but be a great year.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I like this game overall. The main thing I like about it is that you won't see too many pure buldozer bots like last year, and you will be able to see lots of interesting and innovative ways to accomplish the different tasks. I think we'll see some very cool mechanisms for hanging from the bar.

-Pat

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Hanging from the bar?

if your gonna do something, do it with STYLE!

swinging from the bar!

doing loop-deloops on the bar!

hang by your teeth and do a victory spin :c)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I just thought that it's better when winners get their score in QP and loosers get theirs. 1) its easy, 2) if someone does really well in a match, it helps them a lot, instead of just becoming another 2QPs. The 2004 Qualification Rounds system seems a bit too confusing.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I guess I like the game...
Still not convinced though.

My biggest gripes
-Seems as if we will see ALOT of bulldozer bots (herders)
-Too much human importance
-Alot of the "cool" stuff we were gonna pull out of our sleeves was included in the kit. This is a bummer because we now have to work harder to get awards like design and engineering etc. Example, the current sensors, we were gonna use those exact current sensors, we even convinced Allegro to give them to us. *sigh*
-less robot design intensive
-Also would have liked autanomous longer

Likes
-Should be very stratagy intensive
-Simple robots can be very competitive
-Easy to implement all most all functionalities ie. herder, multiplier, hanger
-Optimum robot design may not be the biggest, heviest, strongest

interesting....

Well good luck everyone!
-Andy

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Mike, I do not believe the rules say anything about not descoring the 2X balls. I think you can do whatever you want with those.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Thanks. But I watched the kickoff video again and then it got through my thick head. =P

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I love the game personally. It seems very challenging, even for some of the vets. I can only see a real advantage that vets have in the big ball. That 6" step kind of had me worried a little. I say that there will still be 'boxes' around that just run around and gather balls, and this isn't necessarilly a bad approach. But I really would like to see some good hangers. The designing process for that, if a team were to chose it *<_< >_>* would seem hectic. Some one on my team mention a cherry picker like device that seemed, if not for the wieght problem, like a great idea. The scoring is pretty cool and simplistic. A team would do good to knock both ten point balls in during atonomous mode. That would be pretty smart considering you want both teams to do well. All and all thumbs and big toes go up. The game is great, and rookie teams should still be able to have a chance, many have suprized us before right? :D

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I really like the game this year. It really exemplifies what first really is all about

Likes:
As said above, it is what first is about in most ways
Human player importance: The integration of robots and humans will be vital in the future. Each will depened on each other. This is a step in that direction.
Scoring: At LA last year, we were undefeated at the beginning and at one time we were seeded 26th. In the same situation this year we would be around tenth. Also, in the elimination rounds, best 2 of 3 advances, instead of having the team that dominated one match but lost in the other two move on.
Variety: There are many things to do, and it is almost impossible to do it all at once. For example, during autonomous, do you want the 10 point ball or not? Will it really make a difference? In the game, will capping be essential? Will the game come down to the end score as it did last year? Only time will tell.
The new stuff: I like the air-filled tire and the rotational actuator. Those will help a lot.

Dislikes:
Mostly a little too much integration of the past games and not quite enough new stuff (but the stairs were a nice touch)

It looks like it's going to be a fun competition. Good luck everyone!

Daniel

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

this year i think the game is very interesting and complex, and i like it. it seems like the challenges from the past 4 years have been put in a blender, and this is what happened. sure its a little different from usual, but thats what makes it great. i like the fact that the robot and the human player are equally important; they form a symiotic relationship that is necissary for your teams success.

also, the human player doesnt have to be a basketball star to make the balls in the goals. they just need a lot of practice, and the knowledge of how to throw a ball in an arch. practice makes perfect!

i look forward to the competitions this year, good luck everyone

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

First reaction – spooked.

That is a good thing, for as Jimmy says, “If winning was easy, then everybody would be doing it. It's the hard that makes it great!”

This is our second year; we are old rookies. For the new rookies sake, I am grateful they can shoot hoops and herd balls. It makes it conceivable for them to compete. Heck, I am grateful our team has the possibility of shooting hoops and herding balls.

I believe experienced teams have advantage because they are, well, experienced. From my perspective as team coach, it is unfortunate that so many tough tasks are repeats from preceding years. However, it is an opportunity for our team to reach out to more experienced teams and ask for guidance, war stories, and encouragement.

I extend a challenge and a request to a knowledgeable someone. There is a wealth of experience on little balls, big balls, bars and more. Could someone create a document organizing best of breed solutions from previous competitions where similar problems were posed? Having lots of white papers and discussion groups, a la Delphi, is truly great. However, it is hard to absorb and assess it all. An informed overview would be a wonderful touchstone for old and new rookies. Note: I am prepared to have my ignorance pointed out to me that such a thread already exists; where many someones have already posted their newbie overviews. Being a teacher, I am quite comfortable with my ignorance.

First response – excited.

I like the breadth of both undiscovered strategy and engineering opportunity. As Miguel says, "Only he who attempts the absurd is capable of achieving the impossible."

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I had a neat idea with the hanging bar. Wouldn't it have been cool if at the beginning of the match the bar was at 1 foot off the platform or something and as the game progressed, it got higher and higher...so that if you went for the bar early, you wouldn't have to have as long of a arm or whatever. I thought that is what they were going to do when I saw that the bar moved...

I'm liking this game more and more because I can't find a clear single strategy to win.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Likes:
-Very strategy intesive
-Stationary & moving goals
-Stairs
-Hanging bar

Dislikes:
-No robot de-scoring
-Not enough scoring possabilities for robots
-BALLS. Too many balls....

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

frankly, i think its a great idea to put all the more challenging aspects from the previous games in. though it seem a bit repetitive, its something we, in entirety, havent quite worked with. my only problem might be that there is so much emphasis on previoud experience to get you through this game.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

FACT:

1. The win, loss, tie way of qualifying was an idea taken from this forum last year (the one where everyone's opinions were asked).

OPINIONS:

1. This game is way more complex than we think. There are many, many ways to win.

2. We (the CD community) had some complaints the last few years about the human player not having any real impact. That has changed. By the way, I will take a soccer player over a basketball player. Did you see how the goals reacted? The trajectory looks more like a throw in than a shot into a basket.

3. There are many defensive strategies, but there are just as many offensive strategies. This means more diversity.

4. The win-loss-tie method is the best way to do qualifying. Don't get too wrapped up in the tie breaker. I'll explain. In football a win is a win and the fans can understand that. But what happens when there is a tie for the last playoff spot? The tie breakers are confusing for the average fan, but that is O.K. Most of the time if you win, you are in. The spectators can now understand the game during qualifying. If they see a team win every time the team is on the field, they know the team will be on top (research how many teams actually go undefeated at regionals). The wins and losses are just like hockey: 2 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, and 0 for a loss. FIRST will never let go of the coopertition idea and having everyone get the loser's score for a tie breaker seems to accomplish that. There will be very few teams that actually get hurt by the tie breaker.

5. The elimination rounds are going to be awesome! A tie is a tie and we replay. If each team has one win and they tie in the third round, then they get to play again. The rules cap it at 4 games total, but I think 2 ties in a row is very unlikely. This will bring great excitement to the eliminations.

6. I think the game is great. I think the people who are unsure of this game will like it when the first regionals start.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I like that idea too, but that goes against what FIRST believes. Over the last 5 years that I have been involved, I've noticed and have been told that FIRST officials HATE seeing total blowouts and watching teams that have put their blood and sweat into their machine only to go out and get their butts kicked time after time. It really lowers their self esteem and increases frustration and all together, could ruin them ever wanting to come back and compete in the future. Yeah I know they shouldn't give up, but it has happened. FIRST wants to level the competition enough so that some kind of rookie team with no expierence can hang or come close to teams like 68, 60, 71, 47, etc.

Trust me on this one, its better this way.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

dont jump to the conclusion that winning all your matches is the only important thing

the worse case seneario with that approach would be if half the teams won all their matches, and half the teams lost all their matches

with 50 teams at a regional, that would put 25 teams in the top tier, who would then be ranked by the losing scores.

even if you average it out, then roughtly 10 teams in a regional will win all their matches - that still doenst put you in the top 8.

and if you lose once for any reason (beyond your control) then you might fall to the bottom of the second tier, 20th place!

I agree that the playoffs will be more aggressive - winning is everything there - points are not as important -but even then, if you trash the field and win your first round, but something goes wrong and you loose the second big time - then you are in a shaky position for the 3rd match.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Hmmm.....I personally feel it is an interesting game, and many of you hold the same opinion

Although, I find it hard to imagine how a robot could do just everything!
Too little time, too many things to do!

There is a just a lot to do around the field!
I mean what is the use of that 2x ball, if you cannot get any smaller balls in!And And what is the use of the mobile basket, when you cannot get the 2x ball off it!

As far as hanging on the bar is concerned, I think it should be a priority!

Well, it is quite an exciting game, and I like the fact that the human players and the robots have to work together
Oh well...All the best everyone!!!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I agree completely, blowouts are ugly in pretty much any sport. Just think how many completely lame and boring Super Bowls we have had in the last decade ; ) I would much rather see a close finish, particularly in a sport like FIRST where there are no farm teams or semi-pro divisions, and every team regardless of experience or professional help can potentially play any other.

Blowouts are only for point spreads and contract negotiations - ya know, stuff that has to do with money ; ) -Piece, Pteryxx

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Ever notice how Dean always seems to reference Michael Jordan and the NBA? Perhaps the emphasize on human player skill this year is a plot of Dean's to bring more basketball players to FIRST. Personally, I like this aspect of the game.

As for autonomous, I think more could've been done with that. I think rookie teams would be at much more of a disadvantage with hanging from bars and climbing steps than to write autonomous programs using sensors like they did in middle school with Mindstorms, etc.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

This game is terrible for teams that normally use defensive strategies.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

That's what I thought it would be when they showed the bar rising... it would've made things *very* interesting...

~Aaron

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I can just see Dave, Dean, and Woody sitting around beating themselves for not thinking of that first!

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

A Quasi-Veteran's opinion:

1. Too much human player interaction and too many 'almost pre assembled' pieces in the kit: Well, there are 225 rookie teams. At the Science Center (site of the Canadian Regional Kick-Off) nearly half of the 78 teams identified themselves as rookies. If FIRST oriantates there game towards vets, then the game will be very interesting but too difficult for rookies and membership will not grow (as rapidly as it has, which means less money to bargain for in the end, but thats a totly different thread).

2. I have found it very unfortunatey that teams in previous years didn't 'raise the bar' [of there engineering challange] to build a more complex, more addaptive robot. Many, even in Houston, where just stack knockers and monsters [Chief Delphi thats you!] that folded out and took up space, other then that acted as deadweights.

As a result of the games complexity [and we want to perform 7 functions VERY well] and the size and wieght restrictions, we are forced to employ higher design and craftsmanship standards. We will be experimenting with everything, mostly because 4 of our functions call for designs which I've NEVER seen incorperated into previous bots.

Thumbs up to that blob, lots of learning head!

3. I don't like the idea of not being about to de-score. The platform and bar will act as a physical and phycological wall during game play. Throwing extra balls in or placing a 2x muliplier will be totally dependent on the other side's performance. Last year's open concept [with a slight bottle neck, the ramp] would otherwise allow a team to directly influance the other team's score during game play. This year I think that many teams will sit and wait.

4. I'm worried about a game like that of 2002's. Many teams will simply try to hurd as many balls as possible and let thier human player/basketball scholarship recipiant rack up points. However, FIRST has allowed for very quick and easy drivetrain assembly, hoping perhaps to see more teams focus on building a 2x multipier manipulator or bar grabber. However, experiance has shown that many teams nevertheless will opt for the simpler solution.

My predictions:

1. Many light and quick bulldozers accompanied by some school basketball stars.

2. Many teams will have enough technical skill to persue a secondary function (2x manipulator or bar grabber). Few will go for the bar grabber because of latching complexity, weight and stair-climbing difficulty. This will result in KOTH (more like KOT Platform) situation where ball manip. robots will be blocking bar grabbers [bar grabbers -> consider being able to latch to the bar while not on the platfrom ;) ].

3. Ball grabbing teams will have fewer balls to throw into there bins then grabber since grabbers will not need to spend lots of time manipulating, securing and placing thier target; thiers is stationary.

4. Successful teams will make extensive use of sensors and other 'new' parts in the kit [cough cough].

5. Teams will be more preoccupied with winning, then keeping thier opponents score close. Whether they will go for the 2x mult. or bar will depend upon what they feel thier ball scoring consistancy will be.

6. Bar grabbers will not focus on autonomus mode as much as ball grabbers. They will get 50 points regardless of how long they wait to get thier balls.

7. Expect some VERY unique drivesystems from veteran teams. :yikes:

8. Most of the processor's power will be used towards manipulating sensor data and formulation a respondse, rather then the [hmm, one?] autonomous mode.

Food for thought: Could this game be a learning springboard for next year's uber insanity?

Thats my $0.02 PLN. [expect some ingenuity and a hot presentation :yikes: at the Canadian Regional]

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I agree with MichalSkiba. This years game has so many facets. I don't think that the winning aliances will all look alike as much as they have in the past. With so many strategy options teams are going to be looking for their perfect partner. :p

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Pretty good game, but it's still early. It may be a GREAT game. Very 3-D and action packed for the spectators, which is important.

I predict there will be instances of significant robot carnage during the autonomous mode. Opposing teams' robots will be converging quickly on the same area of the field with no stack of tubs to cushion the blow of a head on collision.

Many robots will have higher centers of gravity (2X handlers, hanger bots) and will attempt to navigate the platform and get to the bar. Many machines will fall off or be pushed off the platform in the process and end the match in a horizontal position if they're not careful.

We have been advised to build 'em to withstand (robot to robot interaction). This isn't battle bots, but it isn't love bots either. :)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

How do you know we didn't? :)

As an exercise for the student: just think of all the practical reasons NOT to do this (hint: remember all the yelling last year about the significant cost of the field, and then start your list with the cost to every team to build a SAFE version of a moving bar on 950+ practice fields).

-dave

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Having us build outrageously expensive fields might cause more regional-wide interaction in an effort to save money and help your neighbouring teams out. That wouldn't be so bad.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

There's still time for them to make that part of the rules... :)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

I definitley think last years game turned out differently than the way it was intended to...in my opinion this year will be much better. There's definitely more options and more of a challenge, although it did combine aspects from previous years. I think experienced team's such as mine will have fun with this, as well as seeing how rookie teams respond.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Is it just me or do the stairs seem irrelevant? The included chasis and wheels went up them without a problem. They are too small to make a difference.

It also seems most teams are skipping them altogether and trying to go up the 6" step in one shot. I also think this is because teams don't wants to build a base that is narrower than 30".

But that's just me. :)

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

Hey Guys,
I was just sitting here reading this forum during my Cisco (computer Networking) class, and I was just thinking. Yeah I realize that the game has points from other years, but guys this is a new game and a new year. Don't compare it to other years. We can't dwell on the past. I don't mean to sound rude or anything but come on.

I think that the game this year sounds interesting, and as a second year team, it will be interesting. As PR i don't get invloved that much with the robot until it is completed. But it will be interesting to see what my team members come up with.

Anyways enough of this,
I just want to wish everyone good luck, and for those of you that are going to the Canadian Regional, might see you there.

Re: FIRST Frenzy Opinion Thread
 

this appeares to get more exciting every year. I feel that it is going to be a good stratiegy challenge.