Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I read the rules and I know it says that no bot can score or de-score the 5-point balls but since a bot can put a doulber ball on a goal does that also mean that they can take a doubler ball OFF an opponents goal? What do you think?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I would assume this, because it does not say anything about the de-scoring of the multiplyer ball. My team assumed you could. I hope this helps.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I would agree that the 2x's balls can be knocked off the stationary or mobile goals as rule <G18> only states that So my team has concluded that they are free to be knocked around as you please.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Yeah. Thats kinda what I thought but I wasn't too sure.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I'm trying to keep a good attitude here.....BUT!!!!!!

Remember some of Dean's parting comments.....we're engineers, scientists, and technologists. Let's read the rules and listen to the guidance as if we were....not like we're lawyers. (YUCK!)

See you on the high ground.

Jim

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

My teams interpretation is the 2x balls are free game for robots to grab and place.

Wetzel

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

It is legal to take the 2X ball off the opponent's goal, but, consider this:

If you are using an arm to grab the 2x ball, as long as the ball is in your robot's arm, it is considered a part of the robot. When opponent's human player shoot a small ball toward the goal you are taking the 2X ball away from, and hit the 2X ball, you will be considered goaltending.

That could be an interesting part of strategy. If you are going for the opponents' 2X ball on a goal, you better watch out for their human player because if you don't, you may get the penality for goaltending. Whatever decive you design for that task have to do it quick and fast.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Yeah, but if the 2x ball is on top of the goal, its impossible to get a small ball into it anyway, so the Multiplier is already goaltending. I don't see how your robot, lifting the ball off of the goal could be considered goaltending, since the goals blocked to begin with.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

another strat with the big ball is to take one and cap their stationary goal

How are they gonna get balls in if their is a ball blockin it?

of course they could remove it but that also takes time.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I am only concerned in the situation where it satisfy the following condition:

1. GOALTENDING – A ROBOT cannot interfere with a SMALL ball on its downward flight toward a goal or within a goal.

2. <G21> While a ROBOT is holding a LARGE Ball, that ball will be considered an extension of the ROBOT.

3. <G20> ROBOTS cannot GOALTEND either the Mobile or Stationary Goals. If a ROBOT GOALTENDs or de- SCORES any SMALL ball, the referee will throw a green penalty flag and the opponent’s final score will be increased by twice the value of that SMALL ball.

Goaltending only happens when a ROBOT interfer with a small ball on its doward flight toward a goal or within a goal. When the robot is holding a large ball, the large ball is a part of the robot. When the robot ISN'T holding a large ball, it ISN'T a part of the robot.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

hmmm.. Thats interesting. I never thought about intentionally capping opponents goals. I was just thinking of removing their doublers... Although a good strategy I think intentionally capping opponents goals might be a little dirty.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I believe, though, that the potential exists for you to be penalized while attempting to cap an opponents goal. If a small ball, thrown toward the goal by your opponent, strikes the large ball that you are holding (or strikes another part of your robot) before you have time to release it, that would be considered goaltending, IMHO.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I think that the spirit of the rule was so that someone wouldnt make a bot that would just camp out infront of the opponents goal and cover the opening.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Well, if you were to take the rules of the game explicitly, this is the situation that I can see us all being in:

It WOULD be goaltending if your robot were touching the multiplier and a small ball were to contact it on the way down.

Also, you would have to be very careful about how you approached removing your oponent's multiplier. It is possible, especially with those flexible PVC pipes, that you may accidently remove a small ball from their goal while lifting the multiplier. If you were instead trying to grab the multipler, you would then be in danger of grabbing the goal (illegal).

But in the end what it all comes down to is this:
It was clearly stated that the rules this year were to taken more implicitly than explicitly and that the intent of the rule be the main focus. I would play the game as you see logical and I am imagining that the new lenient rules will lead to more lenient, fun stressfree enjoymeent of this thing we call FIRST.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I think it has to do with your intention. If your robot is sitting in front of the goal with a big net extended to catch your opponents small balls as they enter the goal, thats goaltending, however, if you are removing a large ball from the top of a goal and you happen to block a shot it shouldn't be considered goaltending as long as your intention is clearly to remove the ball, not to block shots. If you remove the ball and then sit next to the goal for a minute with that ball hovering right above the goal, that might be goaltending, but otherwise I think its a little unfair for FIRST to say that any interaction with the top of an opponents goal is goaltending if the intention is clearly otherwise.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

On the Kickoff Dean specifically talkeed about the delima on leaveing a goal that was capped to hang w/ a bot that was sitting there waiting to remove the ball. (I assume he was saying it was legal becsaue he never said it was illegal, but you all know what assuming does)

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Knocking out small balls that are in your own goal would be illegal as well, correct?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

What would you cap the goal off with?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

One scenario

My opponent goes to remove my 2x multiplier from my goal I the human player throw my 10 pt ball at the 2x multiplier. Does that mean my score is multiplied 20x!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So if I hang on the bar after that I would get a thousand points hmmm.. Please let this not be true!!

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I think it goes back to what FIRST said...use common sense....

-Pat

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I spoke to Woody at the kickoff about this very thing. He stated that goal-tending violations is more of an intent. So if you're intent is to remove or place a 2X ball from a goal and in the process you cause a human player to not score a small ball, then it is my belief that you are not goal tending.

If however you move your bot to a goal and make no attempt to remove a 2X ball but rather you simply linger and hold the 2X over the goal, this would most likely be goal tending.

I would look at intent.

Does this make sense?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Goaltending does not result in a penalty. The team whose goal is being goaltended would receive double the points of the ball that was blocked. The goaltending team's score is not affected.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Don't worry about this so much now. You will have practice matches at regionals to find out how judges on this rule. If a team is removing the 2x from your goal during a practice match, have your human player throw a ball at the 2x ball (!!!!NOT THE ROBOT!!!). It the ref throws a goaltending flag, throw another. If he dismisses it because of intent you've got your answer.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Not saying that my team woudl do this as it is not GP but does that me that if we are holding the large ball over our own goal and our alliance partner goes to shoot at the goal and the ball is deflected on its downward path that our alliance would get double the point of that ball which was deflected? Or vice versa if the opposing allaince did this thing would they then get double the points? :ahh:

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

First, you can't goaltend your own goal, so you wouldn't get double the points in the first scenario.

Second, if you are goaltending your opponent's goal, they would get double the points if the referee determines that you are intentionally goaltending (and he sees it). If you are blocking your own goal and they shoot at it, no one would get any points (you can't goaltend your own goal).

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

i agree with the ability to knock out the 2x balls... BUT!!! while doing so you could easily be nailed with a small ball by an acurate HumanPlayer can hit your arm while trying to grab the 2x... so unless you have a way to come UNDERNEATH the 2x ball, it might be a little bit tricky to do... we shall see =D

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I assume you can take the 2x ball off the goals. Also, note that the mobile goals start with the 2x balls on them, so if you couldnt take them off, the mobile goals become totally pointless(the large ball prevents any small balls from getting in). Also if you couldnt take them off, teams could simply cap their opponents goal early, preventing them from obtaining many points other than the bar hang. So, in an effort to have higher scoring, and in turn more exiting and appealing games, I beleive that the 2x balls can by removed from the goal.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

In the Q/A system, it was answered that un-intentional blocking (capping or un-capping being the intent) is still considered goaltending.

Is it just me, or do you think that it's going to be a challenge for the referees, drive-team, and spectators to keep up with the amount of penalties possible in this game? My guess is that many won't happen (such as pushing robots into the ball chutes, or breaking the wall plane, etc), but I think there will be a lot of goaltending calls early on.
Then I wonder if, since un-intentional blocking is goaltending, that alliances might shy away from dealing with their opponent's (2x) balls alltogether unless necessary for fear of goaltending, and focus mostly on their side. Any thoughts?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I think that knowing the rules and studying the game is part of what makes your robot design and drive team work well in the games. I read every rule at least 3 times before the we start building. People shouldn't be yeld at for doing there homework. If they were we would have alot of people failing out of school.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

my interpretation of the rule is that there the 2x ball is open game because if it wasnt then wat if a robot accidently hit a goal hard enough so that the ball fell off. then it wouldnt be fair to penalize them for an accident

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Messing with your opponents 2x ball will definitely happen. We plan on being able to take the 2x ball out of the opponents stationary goal and returning to our goal.

This decision will have to be based on the worth of that multiplier. It the have 3 balls plus a multiplier and we have 5 balls with no multiplier. It we can move the multiplier from there goal to ours while only getting 3 goaltending flags it would be worth it to us. Not only would you gain more points, your 25+ pts + their 15- pts = 40 pt change - 3 goaltending (10 each) = 10 pt overall advantage, the overall score of the game is increased by 30 to 40 points. Goaltending in this manner isn't particularly detrimental to anyone. Don't get mad at me for saying this again, but these rules kind invite this type of play.

I know I have to take there 2X ball and move it to my goal to win but as a side effect the complete score of the game is raised. Another advantage to the teams removing the ball. I would rather see them enforce a goaltending after 5 to 10 seconds of attempting to remove the ball or a single flag if the ball attempted to be removed and is not removed. This would add the challenge of designing a quick method for removing the ball and not allow someone to drop the ball after nine seconds and get a restart on the ten seconds. It would also get rid of more of the goaltending aspect since most teams would remove the ball within ten seconds.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Well said.

I think this is definitely a useful strategy, and will almost definitely occur. A solid defense is going to be key.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Completely agreed. But in the event that a 2x ball is shoved down into a goal, it may take you longer to pull it out, and goaltending points could add up against you. It will be interesting to see teams' approaches to all the different strategies and see which ones become popular...

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

today at quincy there was a lot of ways of scoring and de-scoring the 2x ball... a few in particular were very good at it...

with the 2x ball thrown into an oppeonets net could be CRITICAL in the begining/middle of the match, where the other team is just starting to get thier small balls into their coralls... capping then would make 1 less goal to shoot at, and if you take out the stationary goal, and THEN take thier small goal to your end... it could make it very hard to score period...

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

It would make it hard to score..But again you still want them to score..It's a fine balance and that's what makes this years game so challenging and fun. I look forward to see how everyone attacks this problem and how it works out in the end. We will find out soon enough.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Regarding the issue of goaltending while removing the doubler ball....

Remember what goaltending commonly means. In the basketball sense, it means interfering with a ball that would have otherwise gone in. If a robot is hit with a 5 pt ball when in the process of removing the 2X ball, I would suggest that should not be goaltending. If the robot had not been there, the 2X ball would still be in place and the 5 pt ball would not have been able to score.

Capping however is just the opposite. If you are placing the 2X ball and are hit with a 5 pt ball, that may or may not be goaltending, depending on whether the 5 pt ball would have gone in if the robot was not there.

Think of this in a similar fashion as the hanging ruling. That is, if the vertical bar was not present, would the robot still be hanging?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Good point about the fact that the 2x ball would still be in the goal, therefore, should it be considered goaltending. I'm pretty sure that the Q/A answer said that unintentional goaltending, including capping and uncapping, will be considered goaltending.
HOWEVER, after doing some human player testing the past few days, it is still possible to score the small balls in a goal even if there is a 2x ball on top. It's not easy if the poles are spread out, but it's still possible. So taking that into account, I think regardless, they would count it goaltending if the small ball comes anywhere close to going in the goal (stationary or mobile) - and you have your robot arm attached to the 2x ball. I suppose if you're poised ready to grab it, but not yet in the way of a shooter to interfere, that would not be goaltending...

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

ok... i jujst thought of this... IF the 2x ball is capped... and a robot goes up to try to take it out from the FRONT of the stationary goal, and when its arm is going up, and a HP has the acuracy to hit the robots arm... will it be goaltending... BECAUSE the 2x is still in the goal, its almost IMPOSSIBLE to score more small balls on top of it... so anyone have a clue on the ruling here!?! lol

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

my opinion...I would still say goaltending. You did say it was ALMOST impossible.. which means, it's still possible to make the goal. If there's any possibility at all that the ball could have gone in, then they should call it goaltending.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I'd say this ruling is on the refs. It could be different from regional to regional and it might not always be perfect, definitely in the eyes of 2 teams. If you've watched basketball fouls are called by the ref's discretion and I think this is the case in the game this year. You will just have to live with the ref's decisions..They are only human. (has an idea)-- Robotic refs for a robotic competition, think of the chaos.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Send it through the Q&A system, and see what FIRST has to say about our little dilemma.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

From the Q/A system:
Section: 4.4.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/13/2004
Q: If a team is attempting to uncap a goal and the opposing alliance throws a small ball at the goal at the same moment and it bounces off the large ball while the robot was still holding it, would that team be considered to be goal-tending?

A: Yes, you are goal tending if the goal you are attempting to cap or uncap is one of your opponents goals and the large ball interferes with a thrown ball with the potential to go in the goal (referee's judgement). See the definition of GOAL TENDING.

So I would say they would probably call it goaltending, but as they say above - referee's judgement. Whether the goal is already capped or not, a small ball still has the potential to go in... If you have a field setup, try it and see if you get a ball to stay. I've been able to.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

and what if the robot holds a small ball in its gripper and blocks a shot with it?

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Assume goaltending... Doesn't matter whether your robot interferes or any ball your holding interferes with their thrown ball's downward flight with the potential to go in, I believe it's all considered goaltending.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

Just reading this thread makes you realize how many possible interpretations could be in the rules...
I think that the judges will call anything that blocks a shot on the downward descent as "goal tending" including if it's with a small ball. Small balls don't take up much space anyway...so I don't know why you'd be holding one up there, but sure, if you wanted to. :confused:
But chances are they'll rule on the conservative side, and say it's goal tending.

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I realize this thread is not about goaltending, but this is where a discussion of the topic seems to be taking place. The problem now appears to be figuring out what "a thrown ball with the potential to go in the goal" means. And there will certainly be many interpretations of what could go in.

Will any ball on a downward arc that impacts a robot automatically be goaltending? What about a ball lobbed in the general direction of a goal that, if it had not impacted a robot, would have fallen short? Will it be possible to have goaltending called by simply throwing a ball at an opposing robot? This last action has been suggested as a strategy in other threads in this forum. If that is possible, so much for gracious professionalism!

Re: Knocking out Doubler Ball
 

I think that the jobs of the judges will be a difficult one this year, given the leeway left for interpretation in the rules. I doubt that a judge would call goal tending on an opposing team if their opponents' human players shoot balls at the robots...there will be much interpretation of the rules made by the judges at the competition this year and rulings will probabably differ from each event.