Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Did anyone else take notice to the fact that the bar can be lowered. Woody used a simple drill to turn something to raise the bar. There is no rule stating that the bar cannot be lowered. But it does state that it is 10 feet tall from the carpet. Does that only apply at the beginning of a match? Does it apply at the end of a match? Can you lower the bar and make robots that get to it not get the 50 points? Can you lower it, get on it, then raise it using a tethered part that you could retract once you have returned the height of the bar? Can you lower it and just get on it and get the points? Is it even possible to lower the bar easily with the robot? Would you get disqualified for lowering the bar? It is not destruction of the field is it? Is that why "Raising the bar" is in the title?

I know this will probably not be allowed, but I am suprised that no one else noticed it. Or is there a rule that I missed that prohibits the lowering of the bar during the match?

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

I did wonder about this myself when they raised the bar during the kickoff demonstration of it...but I tend to think that by raising the bar then, they were just dramatizing the title and point of the game. Although if it were possible, being able to lower the bar would be a HUGE loophole and advantage.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Does it break the spirit of the game? Yes.
Should you do it? Probably not ;)

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Wouldn't lowering the bar totaly trash the whole theme behind this years game? :rolleyes: besides, wanna build an electric screw gun and somehow have enough accuracy wiht it to hit such a tiny target??? haha i think that FIRST would be ashamed to have to make an update for something that silly. don't you?

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Just because something is not spelled out for you doesn't mean that it isn't illegal. Use common sense. That's like asking if you could attatch a drill to your robot so you could take apart the ramp in the 2003 game.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

I also believe that it will not be allowed and that is no tin the spirit of the gmae. However, it would add a very interesting component to the game.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

:ahh: I believe it was made quite clear that the only reason the bar can be lowered is to take robots off - that is - for safety.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Even if it were allowed, it isnt possible to do. There's no way you could line up with such a small target. You heard Woodie Dean and Dave tell us to use common sense, and not to be lawyers. Lets please them :)

Cory

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

As interesting as it would be, there's a certain need for the use of common sense. Don't waste people's time, though, with nonsensical threads, especially when everyone is trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

But Is it possible to Lower the Bar and then get on afterwards. I mean even if you lower the bar, once you grab on, who is going to raise the bar back up. It would help more your alliance partner, but then again it would also help the alliance against you.

Dont bash a poster for an Idea. What happened to Gracious professionalism.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

I do not believe that I was being unprofessional when posting this. It is not impossible either, but it is improbable. It is a valid action that has no rules against it.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Actually, thinking about it a little more, it might be quite easy. As long as you know how big the hole is, where it is located, and the type of bit required. You place you bit the exact height it needs to be for the hole. You can then push your robot against the platform and slide along it until the bit falls into te hole. With a little turning, the bit should drop into the spot to be able to lower the bar.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

It isn't the hardest task in the world to do. If a robot can use 'StangPS' or make a 180 degree arc autonomously, I would like to think that it can work a hand drill. The point is that it will not be permitted by the judges and common sense can tell you this.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

The guy threw a question out in general. You all jumped all over him for doing so. A simple No would have been fine. "calling people stupid" etc etc. is just uncalled for. Seriously though, just because I dont have a high post count like you, does this make me any less knowledgable. The reason he probably posted this was because he probably thought there were more people that thought like he/she did. I for one got that in my mind, and so did others. So this thread actually helped inform people that It is not allowed to do so.

I dont want to start anything with anyone, but relax, Take it easy. Its all in Fun......

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Perhpas you mean "maliciously amateur" ?

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Alright guys, come on. Let's quit bashing an idea, and instead maybe offer some advice and input that can be used constructively.

I would assume tampering with the bar would be illegal, and would probably lead to disqualifications. The only reason it can lower is for safety reasons when getting the bots off the bar. Maybe this wouldn't be such a good idea for design, but hey, it's an idea nonetheless.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Impossible?

I think it's far from impossible.
Take a look at what is needed:
A rotary motion device to turn counterclockwise (assuming that is the direction to lower).
A method to line up to a target.
An end-effector of same shape is device needing turned.

I think we've done things harder. Maybe not so much as precise.. but hey, we made things that balanced on a teeter totter just fine.

I also think that it could be a neat strategy.

Consider the rule stating to be hanging you must be fully supported by the bar. It doesn't say "the highest piece of your robot must be at a height of 10' relative to the carpet. If team X can lower the bar, then it would stop any Low-Hanging teams from getting points. (such as the teams which intend to only hang 1-12" from the ground).

Relax on the bashing. Let them update if they need to. It's a valid point.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

i agree with the last guy, u start goin on about gracious professionalism and ur the 1 being ungracious and unprofessional, trashing him and sayin all that wow, its just a game, win or lose, i'm just here to build, meet new people and win, calm down its all gravy

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

i agree with the last guy, u start goin on about gracious professionalism and ur the 1 being ungracious and unprofessional, trashing him and sayin all that wow, its just a game, win or lose, i'm just here to build, meet new people and have fun, calm down its all gravy




Sorry i made a typo in my last post

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

I would really love to see a game incorperating precision manipulations like that, and i have to believe its only a few years off. I don't believe, however, thats its here yet :). To pull it off would be very professional, and to readily accept its (almost certain) ban is very gracious. Too bad. I think Dean and friends just couldn't resist showing off how cool their new toy is.

I refuse to believe anyone out there regularly uses the phrases 'stupid' 'ignorant' 'amature' or 'gracious professionalism problem' in their team meetings to describe their peers.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Does this change the game any more then tipping the goal did in 1996? Even though many teams couldn't score after the goal was tipped, it was still allowed. Do you think FIRST expected teams to pass the balls through the goal faster then they could count in 1994? And yet they didn't make that illegal. Finding unique solutions is not wrong.

Rather then commenting on the ignorance or professionalism of the poster, take the time to say why you think it would be illegal (or legal), and try to back it up with rules (preferable) or previous experience.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

As I told Joe when he asked me my opinion on it, I believe that it would be illegal to modify the height of the goal during a match. My main reasoning behind this is that it was stated during Kickoff that the only reason for allowing the goal height to be modified was to ease robots being removed from the bar. That seems to me to be a statement meaning that it can't be used to ease scoring.

Matt

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Ok THESE ARE THE FACTS
The bar is 10 feet high during the game period.
And the purpose for being able to lower it is so obvious it's not even funny.
Think about it, you try geting a 130 pound object of a bar 10 feet in the air, it's like asking for an accident. The whole purpose of the lowering of the bar is so you can remove the bots safely.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

There is nothing that says the bar cannot change height during the match.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

There are no bad ideas.

I would love to see a robot that could do this. It would not be hard to do at all. They did say that the bar would be lowered at the end of the match to assist in removing robots...but I don't recall them saying it couldn't be lowered during the match (my memory is very faulty though - I was excited to see the bar back!). I'd say its a valid strategy until it is deemed illegal, but it will most likely be addressed in an update.

On a side note, just think of the dynamics of the game if the bar started at 10' and lowered to 6' or the other way around - if it started high, you'd have to accomodate for less space in which to hang...and if it rose, you'd have to get there before its out of your reach. You could even bring back the time points from 2001 because it would move at a set rate, thus you'd know the height at 30 seconds, 1 minute, etc. and be able to give more points depending on when a team hung.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

I would not expect FIRST to allow it.

And it will be especially hard to program/build it to be able to use a screwdriver anyways if they don’t release the specs of position/size of the bar raising mechanism.

Has anyone actually asked FIRST about this?
It would be nice to have things like this clarified before we start building.
Particularly whether or not a bar attaching mechanism can assume the bar height to remain constant. I would hate to have a key function of our bot rendered useless durring competition because it was built under a false assumption.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

Except common sense.

Instead of trying to look for what's NOT there, try looking at what IS there. They specifically mentioned in the kickoff it was for removing hanging robots. Do they REALLY need to say "BUT YOU CAN'T USE THIS DURING A MATCH"?

Honestly, good idea, but you really should think things through before posting about them.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

FIRST did not make the ability to raise or lower the bar part of the competition. Just like the screws that's used to fasten the rest of the field together. Just because it is there does not mean you should use it to give yourself advantages. Watch the kickoff video carefully. They specifically said the raising and lowering is not part of the game. Look at the blue print. The 10' bar is what you are supposed to build and test your robot on, nothing more.


Consider this issue concluded. No more need to be said about this topic. Thanks.

Re: Make the bar lower to get on?
 

If any team out there is a firm believer in this method, by all means, design for it! I think, however, that you will be quite dissapointed after your first match, assuming you make it past inspection.