Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

Todd - let me remind you of Dean's advice: "We use words to mean what words mean." So... when FIRST says block, they mean what block means. Let me help you out with Webster's: "Block - v. - To obstruct so as to prevent passage or progress; to prevent passage from, through, or into, by obstructing the way"

I think the meaning is quite clear. I think it will be quite clear to the referees. My advice is to tread lightly on trying to get technical with interpretation of rules. If there is any doubt in your mind, play the safe route.

It shouldn't really matter to you at this point what the penalty is. It is against the rules. So do not go there. It's the Graciously Professional way.

:)

Aidan

Man, can we whine....
 

There is just no pleasing us FIRST folks is there?

We complained about X, they make an attempt to try to address X and we complain about the fix.

While FIRST is a far from perfect organization, I am continually amazed at how well they adapt and improve.

If you really feel so strongly that Defense is THE KEY to the success of FIRST, perhaps you should start a letter writing campaign to Dean, Woodie, the FIRST board of directors, NASA, Delphi, DCX, GM, Baxter, Motorola, etc. insisting that FIRST change its name to FIRD (For Inspiration and Recognition of Defense, of course).

Think about it. FIRST's mission is not to make sure that defensive strategies are part of the game. Again, changing the culture is the name of the game.

For the first time since 2000, I am sure that my relatives are going to enjoy watching a FIRST tourney. I am preparing to plug the snot out of the Regional Season.

With this game and the economy poised to take off again, I predict that we all look back at 2004 as the Perfect Storm Year, when everything finally came together for FIRST to break into prime time.

I am just shaking my head at all the doom and gloomers out there who keep posting "the End is Near" messages on these boards.

Joe J.

Re: Man, can we whine....
 

While I am inclined to agree with the majority of your post, and I do agree that we should all be more than grateful for the opportunities that FIRST is providing us with, I do feel that the game FIRST chooses is quite important. Robotics, more specifically the competition, is FIRST's vehicle to inspire. Thus, the FIRST game is the name of the game, because that is how they will change culture. It would follow that in order to be most efficient in changing culture, a game that comes as close to possible to pleasing everyone, i.e. being well rounded in both offensive and defensive strategies, would be the best vehicle for changing culture. I do understand that FIRST will never create the perfect game and there will always be people complaining, but I also have faith that FIRST might've been able to make this year's game more well-rounded. But don't, by any means, skew this into an attack of FIRST's choice. Thank you, FIRST, for everything! Keep up the good work.

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

how important is the game to us and to FIRST?

time to inflict somemore data driven analysis on everyone.

Our team will be meeting wed evening and all day saturday for 6 weeks

meetings = 72 hours

to travel to a regional we will spend 3.33 days together

regional = 62 hours

we will be at the regional itself for 20 hours

and during that time, we will actually be playing the game for, what maybe 8 two minute matches? = 16 minutes or 0.26 hours

clearly the most important thing in FIRST is the time we spend together at the team meetings

second is the time we spend travelling together

third is the time we spend at the regional while NOT actually playing (most of this time is spent in the pits)

so only 0.2% of our time is used to actually PLAY the games

kinda puts it all into perspective, doesnt it?

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

New Perspective:
Without the game, NONE of that would happen.
We're all here to play in some way or another. The game is the means to an end.

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

Am I reading the update to tournament play correctly?

Modify 7.4.4, the 2nd bullet as below.A maximum of four matches will be played; if, after four matches, neither Alliance has two wins, match 4 will be replayed until an Alliance has 2 wins.

Thus, if the first three matches in an elimination round are ties, then the fourth match will be played forever, since no alliance will ever have two wins.

I think it would be much clearer to just remove everything after the line: "The first Alliance to win two matches advances."

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

I guess I'd just like to throw out my ten cents on this...

During the early days of brainstorms, someone on my team shot up the idea of, "Hey, let's bulid really long arms and block both chutes. We'd win guarenteed."

Though I don't think that's a completely true statement, it would be a very worthwhile strategy in many cases. However, I looked among the members of my teams and simply said, "We're not going to play the game that way."

In my opinion, some things are great strategy, and some things are just dirty. Building a robot that can just sit with two arms and block chutes, in my opinion, isn't in the spirt of the game. Nor is developing arms that are make to pull robots or hooks off the bar, neither is intentionally tipping robots off the 12" step...

The strategy is just so vast in this game, I can't believe that people are whining that they're not allowed to make a robot that just moves across the field and sits for 2 minutes blocking both chutes. If you have the engineering talent to build something like that, you can easily do a little hanging and ball manipulation to PLAY THE GAME along with the rest of us.

Imagine how boring basketball would be if there wasn't a shot clock. It seems to me that some people would just sit on the ball for the entire game after they got a lead. They'd win 2-0...

I'm aware.

However, in my opinion, blocking both chutes for two minutes is a really lame strategy considering the AWESOME amount of strategy that can go into this game.

Don't be lame. Play with the rest of us.

My dime,

Matt

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

thats not why Im here. Im here to give students an opportunity to see what a career in engineering and science is like. the game is only the tail end of the engineering design cycle, where you take your design out into the real world, and see how it stands up against the competition

and (as I was trying to point out) its only a small part

if you have to win to be inspired, then only one team out of the 930 this year will be truely inspired.

if you have to place in the top half of the seeding rounds to feel successful, then half our teams are winners and half are losers.

the game is not what we are here for - the game is the end of the design cycle

designing robots is not what we are here for either - the robot design IS the means, the bridge we walk across to show the students what is LIKE to be an engineer.

The real end we are targeting here is a student who decides this stuff is incredibly awesome, and THIS is what they want to do for a career.

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

Ooh, you're right. I hadn't even considered that all of the first three matches could be ties (no matter how unlikely.) And I bet FIRST must not have considered it either. I'm just wondering why they decided to change the rule in the first place. What's wrong with taking the highest match score as the tie breaker? (Or maybe they did think of the possibility of three ties, and that's why they changed it. They just didn't think hard enough about their new rule.)

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

Before you joined FIRST did you go into HS's and mentor HS students about enginerding? FIRST exists to inspire, and it's method is the game, and all those wonderful things associated with the game.

The game itself is arguably one of the most important parts of the FIRST experience. Building the robot is one thing, but watching it "come alive" is truly magical.

Ken, I agree with most of your points, but I feel you underestimate the significance of the game, and the impact the competition itself has on the kids.

In many respects (I feel) the weekend of competition can be more powerful than the 6 weeks.

John

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

You know, if you were really counting on being able to block both chutes, just build a fast box on wheels and spend two minutes "playing Pong".

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

I agree possibility of three ties is remote, but in my first life I was a mathematician; I think of these things.

I suspect the reason the highest match score is being used is it is an unsatisfying finish. This is same reason most soccer players hate a tournament to end with a shootout.

Such things are best settled on the field.

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

I agree, but they must have some limitations on their scoring program that can't keep going on forever. So, I read their rule to mean that if you play more than 4 matches, the "official record" will not reflect that fact.

Joe J.

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

FIRST ceases to amaze me. It seems they make the game better, more challenging, and make us think more everytime. I admire FIRST for their creativity. That's why I try not to complain, I don't think FIRST will ever be able to satisfy everyone.

Defense is still an important part of a game. What is a game without defense? That would be boring. Also, the idea of getting your opponents score will prevent a team from getting slaughtered by the really good teams every time. Therefore, defense is limited. Makes coaching and strategy a challenging and spur of the moment type of thing, I LOVE IT!!

Re: FYI: Team Update #1 is posted.
 

"FIRST ceases to amaze me. It seems they make the game better, more challenging, and make us think more everytime. I admire FIRST for their creativity. That's why I try not to complain, I don't think FIRST will ever be able to satisfy everyone."

Anthony - Your first sentence there is completely opposite of what the rest of the paragraph says. I think you were trying to say that FIRST never ceases to amaze you, because cease means "to come to an end"