Is there a Need for Speed???
 

How many people are going for speed this year or is this year going to be a pushing match for the small balls and goals??

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

i am surprised at how many teams are choosing a fast robot (11 ft/sec is reletively fast). first allow me to say that i am assuming for the sake of this argument that teams who are choosing fast robots are therefore sacrificing torqe. although my team doesn't agree with me, i think that a slow, powerful, and controllable robot would be advantagous for the specialized tasks this year.

being able to position your robot to either knock down the bonus ball, cap a goal with the 2x ball, or grab onto the bar would require very carefull driving, which is harder for a fast robot (though it can be slowed through programming or using a tranny).

i also dont forsee many robots having to sprint across the field and back. most of the tasks of the competition are located on your side of the field, save for the bar and moving goals that are in the middle. a robot could score highly without ever crossing the field or traveling long distances.

any robot that can climb up the six inch step will need sufficient power to do it. even if you are both fast and powerfull, running full speed into the step isnt the best thing for the robot. once on top of the platform a fast robot would have trouble maneuvering on the HDPE (fast robots consequently have less traction).

lastly, i think being able to push other robots around would be usefull in a defensive strategy. it would be easy to block another robot from crossing the field just by positioning you robot in the same alley.

i know my argument seems very strong for a slow bot, but this is just once side of the debate. i look foward too seeing what other people think of the game.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Thinking about last year, it seemed like the game would've required a lot of stacking by teams on their own side and then a final surge of power in the battle for the ramp... and then it seemed to turn out into a stack-destroying and descoring competition. I don't think that's about to change. People want to win during these matches regardless of the low points they may incur in the process. I don't think any alliance will ever not cross into their opponent's side at least once during a match.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Yes, speed will be a huge factor in this game. Once you have conrol of the balls and they're in the player station, the opponent cant do anything about it. Collecting the small balls is all about speed. The goals on the other hand is more power. But with my teams uber gearbox, we get both. :D :D

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

that is the truth...and the reasoning behind most teams thinking

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Speed will come into play big time during autonomous mode, in my opinion. It doesn't matter how powerful you are if your opponent can get to the 10 point balls faster than you can, and autonomous modes can be upset very easily anyways.

But really, I guess only time will tell which one will be better in this year's game - speed or power.

Then again, why not have both? :D

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

I think in a way speed is crucial all throughout the game. It always is, as I see it. Yes, it will be huge in autonomous, but when they're actually being controlled by the drivers, the robots will have more contact and actually go after each others' balls and such. So it'll definitely come into play when it comes to actual controlling mode.
:-D
~Dori

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

a fast robot is not necessarily difficult to control. the problem is achieving just the right amount of traction so that the robot can turn easily yet slowly enough so that it doesn't spin out of control.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

[quote=Then again, why not have both? :D[/QUOTE]

Well from our team's point of view before the season started we were pretty certain we were goin with a 2 speed dual motor type transimission, but when the game came out, well there is alot of emphasis that is put on the manipulation of objects. That means we have to take weight out somewhere to have these manipulators.

So the why not is weight.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Very true, weight is a reason for a lot of things, like people going insane 3/4 through build :]

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Haha!
We went nuts after just..er..1/4 last year. But this year we're way on track. :-D We're almost done design.
But that's not the point.
Yeah weight IS a big factor, last year we kept having to take stuff out 'cause we were too heavy...then we finally were, like, 129.8 lbs. hehe.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

speed holes.

speed holes are your best friend.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

speed holes..?

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

yes, speed holes. lets the air go through, cuts down on wind resistance, the like.
And they're so stylish to boot.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

ooh I see.
I'm not too familiar with terms..
Lol I'm new to technical works.
~Dori

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

i realize my post was very one sided. i wanted to support the side that i didn't expect many people to take. im just trying to think outside the (gear) box. im sure there are a ton of exceptions to everything i said, but i stand by my assumptions and generalizations.

i know that controlling the robot usually isnt a problem for the experience programmer and driver, but a rookie or inexperienced team may have trouble controlling a bot with a max speed of 12 ft/sec. this is my team's third year and we are still learning as we go along. our robot last year was meant to lock onto a stack of up to four bins, but partially since the robot had to be precisely lined up, we only managed to pull it off once.

as for crossing the field, some robots will be crossing but i do think that it will be at a smaller frequency than last year. last year, robots started on the opposite side, crossed back to gather bins, then ran across again to knock down stacks (again, this is a generalization, and a bad one at that). this year i would not expect robots to make the circuit across the field and back more than once, if at all.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Teams that have high and low gear will have both torque and speed. Six wheel drive should be sufficeint. A turret will enable you to manuver easily.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Speed is the key this year, without a doubt. Although, one must consider that we are limited not only by hardware and software but also by human reaction time. You need to make sure that you team doesn't over do speed, because as I have witnessed last year, too much speed very quickly becomes a lack of control and thus a nearly useless robot. This year, I feel that gears a needed, not to control torque but to control a maximum speed.





Teams I expect to be blazing fast: 25, 60, 111, 312, 343


I also expect this year to be the year of the driver. I think that this year we will, more than ever, see excellence in driving technique and skill to be as great of a deciding facot as the quality of robot(ofcourse, this is an overstatement, but not a huge one).

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

to control any bot well you need to do something more than let the joystick inputs control the motor PWM outputs directly

FEEDBACK is probabally THE most powerfull tools at an engineers disposal!

When a drive train is geared up for speed, the stall torque is not very far above the friction in the drive train when you first start to move. that means if you are using two drive wheels to steer, then its almost certain that one will drag a little more than the other, and when you try to make small movements, or to go straight, the bot will not act like you want it too.

that why you REALLY need a yaw rate sensor and/or wheel movement sensors to close the loop - so the SW can tell the difference between what the driver is asking for and what the bot is actaully doing, and make the necessary adjustments and corrections all by itself

closed loop steering and closed loop speed control is a BEAUTIFUL THING!

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

All I can say is...

:D !

But yes, I think speed is essential, this year. With so many tasks to be done, and so many levels for these tasks to be done on, even if your robot only intends to perform a few tasks particularly well, you still need a robot that can move across the field and from level to level quickly. A robot that is on the hanging bar before any others is also going to have a one-up on the other teams.

EDIT: After having read the rest of the posts on the thread:

This year is going to be the year of drive team cooperation. You need a quality robot, a quality human player, a quality driver, and a quality coach to keep your quality drive team's head from exploding.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Very very true.
Also, hi! I'm from Team 007, and we allianced with you all at Duel on the Delaware. :-D
~Dori

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Speed Holes is a new term for me. I understand it and know that they hold pros/cons.

Pros: Speed
Less Weight
no need to swiss cheese
Cons: Weak Body unless done right
less surface area to push with in some cases

Not a bad idea, but see if you can build the robot with them built in. :)

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Ok... um

'speed holes' is a reference to a Simpsons episode. Homer was wacking his car with a pickaxe (I forget why) and Flanders asked him what in the world he was doing?

and Homer sarcastically replied "Im adding speed holes, dont you know anything about cars Flanders?"

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

:eek: speed holes? jake u out did your self with that reasoning. i will not let u swiss cheese our bot 14fps :yikes: is fast enough with out cutting holes in it!

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Jake, you didn't have speed holes last year, neither did we.:p

Speed will not be top priority, although very important. I believe manuverablility will be MAJOR this year, especially with the field being 6 feet shorter. Speed is always nice, but you can sometimes sacrafice speed for manuverablility, being that you need it. I know my new driver from last year had to practice A LOT in high gear (15fps i believe, if i remember correctly) in order to control the robot, It's a dangerous speed to stay at, especially if your driver does not have a lot of experience. My favorite is the two speed, like the one our team has had. High speed to go from one end to the other, low speed to manuver and have torque. But then again, that could be just me and that's all i've ever known, but hey, i still like it!!

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Speed is only valuable over a relatively long distance. 15 fps only makes sense if you are going to go the full 40 ft. across the field. Hopefully you don't run into an obstruction somewhere in the middle (like the steps or a robot coming the other way).

Acceleration will be much more important this year than speed. How rapidly can you reach top speed and how effectively can you maneuver.

I'm surprised at teams that want to go really, really fast in autonomy. Teams are probably going to go to the center of the field (since that's where most of the scoring objects are). Do you really want to meet a 15 fps robot coming the other way?

15 fps + 15 fps = 30 fps -> lots of robot parts on the field.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

we did too have speed holes! i spent 4 hours cutting them!
the reason you guys didn't have them was because you weren't imaginative enough to max out your weight requirements

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

no, i want to get to the release ball first, then get outta the way of the other bot :^)

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Just to clear up the speed hole issue;

When some one talks about speed holes, all they mean 99% of the time are holes drilled in the bot to make the weight limit. They got the term speed holes from a Simpsons episode, and because getting rid of extra(dead) structual wieght can only make you faster. Besides, when some one asks why you're bot looks like a macoroni strainer, its cooler to reply 'Oh, those are the speed holes' then 'Oh, we were 3 pounds overwieght...'

So when you see a bot that looks like swiss cheese, it really means the bot iss really really fast :D

-Andy A.

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

from what i have seen and experienced i would say that a robot will need speed and torque at the same time for the competition. first off you want your robot to hit the 10 point ball as quick as possible. you also need speed to gather the small ball around and pass it to your human player (this was pointed out before in this thread). i believe that there will be teams who will try to get on the platform as quickly as possible, so after gathering the small balls the robot needs to get on the platform where speed and torque both needed at the same time. once you are on the platform you might need to keep other bots off the platform in order to hang, so there goes for torque one more time... :)

Re: Is there a Need for Speed???
 

Speed is essencial, So is a driver like you. Things look great this year:D.Good Robot+Good Driver+Good Programmer+Good Battery Management(enuf with this last year) = Winning a Game
lol
Cheers,
-Tekno Bramha