Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

Those were the same questions we were talking about our robot and yet you didn't even see it yet.:) Anyway I usually ask the first question when I don't know how something works. Im not trying to be critical. Then I usually ask design questions just to see why those choose to go one way or another.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I see there being criticism and constructive criticism. Most comments I have seen are criticism, as they do not give very much thought or reason into a questin they are asking about a picture/robot.

It seems like everytime a robot picture or teaser gets up loaded it is the same 2 or 3 people asking questions about it too. If you wanna know information I see that PM'ing the uploader of the picture to be the best option that way you do not clog the portal page with threads says "Ohhh I like" or "Yeah, but i dont like..." etc etc etc.....

I totally agree with Andy on this matter and feel PM's should be used when responding to most images uploaded to this site.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I'll be open and say that I've tried to help out some teams in the past few weeks by showing some quick math to help adjust some gear ratios.

Last year was VERY painful for us because our gear ratios were so poor. We were tripping breakers left and right, and we couldn't figure out why. It was incredibly embarassing.

I wish somebody would have just pointed and said, "Hey Matt, that's geared wrong! Switch those sprockets to 25 tooth and you'll be all set. Here's the math to support it."

Figuring out the right gear ratio is something that's so important, I try to help teams avoid the heartache we had last year- by saying something before the competition starts. I believe for many teams, the $60 or $70 in sprockets they'll need to replace so they can compete at a reasonable level may be worth a little ego bruising. I try to show math that would help support other teams that may have the same trouble, so everyone can learn, and avoid this sort of engineering mistake.

Often, these teams are either student run, or engineer light, and I think it's in the best interest of everyone if somebody napkin-sketches out a gear ratio corss check when it sounds funny.

However, maybe it is best left to a PM. I'd just hate to see teams go without this sort of information.

Matt

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

People have good points on this thread. Gary and Matt's counter-points are excellent.

So... my plea to those of you who want to give advice or ask questions - follow the example that you see on these forums by having some tact and grace when you wonder if something works or if it is overweight.

It is tough to not put emotions into a design that you've worked hard on for the past 5 weeks. While being non-emotional about a deisgn is the correct thing to do, it is extremely difficult.

Andy B.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I'm going to go on record as agreeing with Andy (well, there's a surprise). However, I think the problem is generally bigger than simply criticism of other team's robots. For those who've been on Chief Delphi for many years (now I feel old), the same sorts of activities have been going on for those years (I seem to remember quite a number of fights in 2001).

In my opinion, a lot of these hard feelings and fights are related to misunderstandings. It's much more difficult to convey a message in text than it is spoken. There's a lack of voice inflection; a lack of body language. It's much more difficult to tell a joke in text than it is out loud. This is doubly so when you're attempting to tease someone.

In another direction, it's important when giving criticism to give constructive criticism. Criticism is useless unless there's somewhere to go with it. It's not required that you have a solution for a problem but it is required that you phrase the criticism in such a way that the actual problem is targetted and not the person.

I think I have to disagree with Andy over the idea that all criticism should be sent through PM's. I think we all can learn quite a bit from good criticism and there's something that we can all contribute to it. The opportunity is lost if it's not constructive criticism.

Matt

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I agree with that to an extent. We all can learn from criticism. Last year Matt Reiland of 226 (I think it was him) saved our butts because in one of our teasers we had a pneumatic cylinder held in place illegally, if it wasn't for him we probably wouldn't have realized it and it would have caused quite a bit of embarrassment if an inspector caught it at a regional or at the championship. Also, just this last week Paul Copioli from 217 pointed out a flawed assumption about a CVT design. That will probably save headaches and pain for that team because of that. Another good example of good criticism. I agree that certain criticisms should be posted, but again with everything you have to draw a line somewhere. As everyone else before me said use your head before you post it and if you are in doubt, I say go ahead and PM, if something good comes out of it or a problem is solved the team you helped will let you know. You all have them, so use your brains.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

Maybe it's just me, but I think that the negativity is due (in a very LARGE part) to the end of the season rush. Even though I love being involved in FIRST, there have been a few times this week that I've wished that I had the entire week to myself...a chance to relax, instead of rushing to finish a project. As a result of that, I've been a bit irritable at times, especially when I realize just how much work is left for us to do. I know I'm not the only one that's in this boat, and that might be part of where the negativity has stemmed from.

Then again, that's just my two cents...

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

In cases where criticism is needed, it is important to post it to the thread and not PM for everyone can realize the design flaw and learn from it. Teams that robot get criticized in a positive manner appreciate it more than they are embarassed by the bad assumption they made. Just be careful with everything you post. It is easy to not sometimes but posting positive criticism helps everyone reading that thread.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I think Andy is saying that the 'That sux' and other posts like that need to stop. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is needed. It's the one-liners that add nothing to the disucssion that needs to end.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

I have to agree with Matt on this one. Though I feel it is important to be constructive when opinionating on a design, I feel that in some cases it is important for those criticisms to be made public. Especially in a case where a robot may be overlooking or breaking a rule put out by FIRST. For instance, earlier this week there was a robot picture posted on Delphi of a robot that the team had said was "hanging". Now, with the Q&A forums as they are, it can be very easy to overlook certain things. I looked at the picture and realized that according to an answer that FIRST posted in the Q+A forum, the robot pictured would not be hanging. My team didn't even realize this rule until the last week themselves! In a public post I let the team know that according to the FIRST ruling, the robot pictured would not be hanging. I kept it public because I know there are probably quite a few people who didn't realize that if your hook is touching the side bar, they are not hanging. I think this is a solid case for the opposite of what Mr. Baker says. I can see similar cases where this could happen. For instance if a robot has a certain type of wedge to herd balls that looks like it may be in danger of breaking the human player coral area (loss of 10 points), I would certainly want to bring that to a teams attention, and do it in public so that other teams would realize exactly what can happen. Other than that, I would agree with Andy...try to keep it positive and constructive.

Good Luck!
Andy Grady

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

As I have looked thru some of the picture posts tonight I have seen some awesome robots and the efforts of great students and mentors that have produced a machine to play this game.

I have also seen some comments and criticisms of thise machines that are not constructive criticism or helpful - the machines are built - they are shipped - they are ready to compete - and the negative comments can do nothing but bruise a team.

Please Go back and read the first post in this series and apply the intent before you post about someones masterpiece.

Good Luck to all teams and I hope everyone's robots perform exactly as intended!

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

Gracious professionalism... need i say more? lol

as long as we remember the words of woodie... what could possibly go wrong? but honestly, i think that as a majority the entire FIRST robotics "community" is kind, helpful, and supportive.

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

Good grief, I'd be <i>AFRAID</i> to criticize someone's strategy! Which team was it a few years ago with the simple bot in the "trough game", that had the ONE ball gripper and a chinup rig, but nothing else? Everyone laughed, because THEY all had big capacity ball handling machines, conveyor belts, giant container dumpers, etc... They stopped laughing when the little bot went over at round start, did a chinup, locked on, then proceeded to <i>steal every 10 point ball from their opponent's trough </i> and put it in their own...

IMHO, it's the most brilliant strategy I've seen to date... That simple idea swamped that game, by turning their opponent's efforts against themselves.

Similarly smart, was the tiny "ramp assistance/manager" machine that helped the other teams in Co-Opertition FIRST (a simple wedge, which held the teeter totter level, while other robots ran over it's back). Two years ago there were some VERY brave teams that said "to heck with QPs, we're owning ALL of the Zone Zeal goals and will just be CHOSEN for the Elimination Tournament".

Little things can have BIG effects, and NO ONE KNOWS until you see how the game WILL be played what IS smart, and what ISN'T.

Last year for Stack Attack, we built a "transformer bot" with wings and a stacking lift, that could fold into a 14" high package. We busted our butts to package our entire bot into a 30"x36"x14" package! What happened? We never had to stack one bin to score. We never went under the bar, not even once. Instead, those two light 8020 "wing sticks" we stuck on at the last minute just to push some bins around were the most valuable thing we had. In addition, our complicated forklift stacker turned into a "stack slicer / opponent bin stack size manager". It ended up maximizing QPs by karate chopping the opponent's stacks at a level of OUR choice, and helped to give our alliance a Top Ten Round score at one regional. That use was something that <i> never </i> occurred to us until we started playing others!

Yes, I definitely agree with everyone here that we learn from ANY feedback, even critical stuff. You bet I would bow down and kiss the feet of ANYONE that saved our bacon by pointing out something that would disqualify our robot! And yes, there's a difference between criticism, and put downs stated trying to make the commenter feel superior. (There's NO excuse for that!)

But we must all be CAREFUL about PRE-JUDGING a robot's APPROACH. This is a battle ground of ideas, and they ALL INTERACT. It'll all depend on what everyone ELSE'S image of the game. Had the little trough lockon robot been up solely against clones of itself, there would have been no one out there collecting balls to steal, and they would have been in an arm wrestling match over one or two balls!

THIS game has a LOT of "scoring zones". We asked for a Rock/Paper/Scissors game, and boy oh boy did Dean, Dave, Woody, and crew take a good shot this year at delivering one! I'm FASCINATED by the possibilities. WHAT will everyone be focused on? Will we see entirely different games at different Regionals?

But who knows? There may still be a "game swamping move". There are thousands of smart people out there working on this one! And, depending on their OPPONENTS' aproach(es), a "dumb machine with obvious design weaknesses" that CAN be beaten easily ("had we only known what they were planning") may turn out to be the STRONGEST one there, just because their approach was SO DIFFERENT from everyone they face, who didn't expect to have to counter it!

And THAT possibility is what makes going to the contests so much fun! :D

I can't wait until I see how this game is REALLY played. The arena will quickly show all of us how strategically smart or dumb we all actually were, and where our efforts truly paid off.

Bottom line: <i>The Field</> will be the ultimate judge of our efforts. Just learn what you can from the comments on your design. Don't sweat the critics and nay-sayers. Go out, and have some fun. After all, we'll soon see whose bot is going to be kicked... I can't wait to see some strategies AND designs out there that WE never would have thought of in a million years, and devices WE thought were dead ends made to work! :D

Good luck to ALL of the teams. May YOUR design be victorious, and all of your hard work richly rewarded!

- Keith

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

"Critical and picky..." I think not!

Andy's message can be summed up in two words...

Gracious Professionalism

If I recall correctly, Dean made a very strong statement about this at the kickoff. I have beat this into my students heads. They have bought into the message.

Keep going Andy!!

Re: Critical and picky - here I go again.
 

Hello again,

Well, I'm going with Andy on this one as well. People need to be careful with what they say, myself included. There's a little trick to ensure that you don't say anything mean or overly critical... Have brain intercept mean/overly critical thought before it reaches mouth. I did that a couple times. What helps me is to remember that just because it didn't work for us doesn't mean it can't work for them. When I was talking with a coach from a different team in our pit the other day he was discussing our design with me, and asking some questions. He asked me why we didn't do a certain design of ball holding idea. I knew their robot happened to be based on this idea, and knew the question could mean one of two things. One- he wanted to know if we'd discovered something better, or Two- he wanted to know why the heck we did what we did. Well, to be honest, we'd tried something similar to what he was discussing, and it didn't do at all what we wanted it to. But, I reminded myself that just because we didn't make it work, didn't mean they were incapable of making it work, and told him that we felt that we accomplish more of the goals our team members set out by using a broader, less specific, design.
Remember people- appearances are everything, and the things you say go a long way on the gracious professionalism track. (in other words, don't talk bad about the other teams till you get to the hotel. And if they're in the same hotel, talk quiet. those walls are thin.)
Later,