Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

On another thread, Joe Johnson said:

"Autonomy is forcing every team I know that is serious about trying to maximize there chances of doing well in the robot competition to build 2 robots -- one to ship and one to program autonomous mode with while you wait to compete at the regionals and championships. This is a serious problem for FIRST in the long run (more serious than the topic of this thread, imho), but it is off topic for this already overheated thread."

I agree that this is a very important thing to consider.

As far as I can see, it changes things substantially. Instead of "we have 6 weeks to build, test, program, etc. and then it goes in a box..." it is becoming "we have 6 weeks to build, and an additional 3-5 weeks to program, test, practice, etc." During the additional time, we can modify the test robot, collect the same "raw" materials and then "fix" the "actual" robot at a competition. Heck, if you weld the entire thing, you can bring a part that has been completely fabricated after ship date and put it on your "actual" robot, after having tested it with your "practice" robot for weeks and weeks.

Why is FIRST allowing teams to keep the controller this year?

Am I way out of wack here?

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

your only a little out of wack - two or three good wacks should fix you right up :^)

FIRST has said this year that any spare parts you make must be shipped with the robot on the ship date <- EDIT: this part is wrong - see corrections in posts below

- you cant keep making spares at your home site after the ship date, then swap them on your bot at an event.

But you do bring up a good point - in addtion to giving the students driver practice time (which I think is ok) - having a clone-bot also allows you to debug your machine after you shipped it

and as you said, fix the bugs in the original when you get to your first event.

in that regard, yes this does seem to be against the spirit of the rules - it allows teams to do the design and build phases of the design cycle in 6 weeks, then do the test and debug phases after the ship date

so in effect, teams that can afford to clone their bot get a 9 or 10 week 'project schedule' and teams that cant have to finish everything in 6 weeks.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I think you BOTH are wacked ;-)

As far as I know, the rules say you can bring spare PARTS (not assemblies) with you to the competition as long as they were made during the 6 weeks.

Am I wrong?

Joe J.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

ok - Joe is right - you dont have to ship them in your robot crate, but you have to make them during the six weeks after the kickoff:

from team update 6:

so if you want to fix a bug you found after you shipped your bot, you would have to bring raw materials and fabricate the new parts at the event, in the pits - you cant build any parts back at your site after you shipped your bot.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

This is a rule that I do not agree with. You have 6 weeks to build a robot, period. Designing and writing software is no different than building a part. You can't build spare parts so why should you be able to write spare code? They provide a test platform so its not as if no work can be done before the robot is completed. It is a design challenge to build software that can cleanly scale from the EDU controller to the full-size controller. I do not think teams need a great autonomous program to be successful. The game this year will not be won or lost in the first 15 seconds, but that 15 seconds provides a much more interesting design challenge to the software people. There seems to be a slant towards the mechanical side of robotics in FIRST and this is step towards validating the software side. I think they need to keep the autonomous period intact but level the playing field.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I dont know if I agree with your assesment of auton mode. if you dont get the release ball in auton, then your sides scoring object dont fall until T=45

thats 30 seconds of playtime with nothing on the floor to herd - I think that will be a big factor

also, if your auton is really good, you can not only get the release ball, but maybe snarf a 2X ball, or start sweeping up the small ones that have dropped.

I think auton mode will be a deciding factor this year.

1 and done Vs. 2 for you...
 

After our team fiasco of trying to build 2 robots our first year of FIRST (1996), I swore an oath* that I would never try that again.

I spent the next 6 years telling any rookies that would listen that they should spend the time finishing ONE robot faster in order to get drive time for their students.

Last year, autonomous mode changed my mind. I maintain that it is 10 to 100 times more likely that you will have a competitive autonomous mode if you build a second robot. Given that autonomous mode was huge last year (and figures to be huge this year imho), building 2 robots with lower capability is more likely to help your team than having 1 supercapable robot with a so-so autonomous mode.

So... ...I now tell every rookie team that will listen that they should plan on building 2 robots.

A wise man's mind changes and a fool's mind changes not...

Joe J.



*For those who take oaths seriously, myself included, please note that in this context, I use the term for effect, I did NOT actually swear an oath that I am now breaking.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

Geez, we just jump from one controversy to the next, don't we? ;)

Honestly, this has been going on for years. And even though it looks unfair from the outside, just because they may have a couple of extra weeks to tweak with a second one, doesn't mean they're unbeatable in competition. If they were unbeatable, the retention rate would have dropped off long ago, because smaller teams would see a lost cause.
You also have to think about natural driver skill. You may be only able to build one robot, but that kid painting the crate in the corner just may be a star driver in disguise.

So give it your all, the David beats the Goliath more than you think. ;)

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

This is the first year that we are building two robots as a team. Both are fairly close to each other in construction, with the main focus being put on the competition bot. The primary function that the "clone" bot will serve is the one of driver training and autonomous programming, it is an advantage, and I'm glad we decided to do it.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

something our team did this year that really helped out with auton mode is we built a pratice robot before the kickoff meeting, using the 2x4 alum frames and 3/8 plywood base, and the stock FIRST transmissions and drill motors from last year (with old RCs from previous machines)

this allowed our students to build something that ran around on the floor before the kickoff, so they got some confidence in their abilities

and it lets students pratice driving something

and it let us mount a gyro sensor and contact switches and play with the IR sensors in the first few weeks of the program - so we had the basis of our auton mode working on our practice bot (named Frank BTW)

switching it over to the real machine is not hard now, we do have to translate from Pbasic to C - but we are confident that our approach is solid and wont take too much tweaking on KG1 (our real bot for this year: KateGleasonOne)

I keep threating to post photos of Frank on here - I will get to it - maybe tonight (I dont have a digital camera, it 'dissapeared' when my daughter went off to college - I wonder where it could be?!)

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

This is also the first year 151 is trying to build two robots.

-Gives drivers loads of pratice
-Gives Software loads of time to get the code just right

These robots are going to be exactly the same. We have expermented with a second plywood bot for testing but we have found that after the drivers use the pratice bot for a while and then switch to the real robot, there feel for it is off. This is something we did not want to happen again, hence two "real" robots.

-Aaron

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

The only reasons i see this is fair is for Driver practice. I seem to find that ok, and fair to other teams.

on a side note (related to question):
Can we build ou r controls after the 6 week build?
I mean, continue to add switches and such, or is that not a good idea?
I could go both ways on this one.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

Yes, you can work on the OI after the robot ships. If you haven't had time to pretty it up or you don't like the layout you can keep working on it.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

This is sort of what I was getting at. As a teacher/coach/mentor, working an additional 30 hours a week during "build season" is something that I plan for and my wife is able to cope with. The problem comes in when "ship-date" is not the end of the intensive building season - it is just the beginning of the intensive driving/autonomous programming season.

How do other mentors/coaches feel about this?

-Mr. Van

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

wife?!

you still have a wife?!

this must be your 1st year :^)

lots of mentors catch grief from all directions for the amount of time we spend on this program - FIRST should start a parallel program for all the "FIRST Widows" out there. Find something for them to do when we all dissapear into the black hole for 6 to 10 weeks each winter.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I can't decide on a side to take in this discussion, since I feel this is both a good idea, and a bad idea.

I believe, in a way, allowing this is in the spirit of FIRST. You can think of it as debugging/beta testing after the product is complete. We all know a machine has flaws, and it's also "beta testing" if you will that solves these problems. I've always looked at the first 6 weeks as 1 big prototype/base build project. My team has never built a second robot, but we have continued to program and use simulators. Granted this can't solve a lot of mechanical problems, but it does solve a lot or program errors. As far as building spare parts in the off season goes. I know a lot of teams have done this already before. To my knowledge, you've always been able to create spare parts and bring them to the event, just never bolt on assemblys or radically change your design after it has been shipped. For example, you were not able to create a drive train, assemble it, and $@#$@#$@#$@# it with your robot, then design and build an entirely different drive train. I may be wrong on this, but this was always my understanding.

As far as building a second additionala robot for testing and such. I feel it is unfair to the rookie teams as opposed to the more experienced. Teams just starting out, or even teams that have been around 2-3 years, don't have the funds to buiild a second bot. "Too bad for the rookies," some of you might be thinking, which is just wrong. Remember, we were all rookies once, so put yourself in their shoes. You see teams that build a second robot, and have an amazing driver from being able to practice in the "off-season" (now should be called extended-season). How does that seem fair to you? Just because you don't have the funds, you don't get the same opportunities as someone else?

So do I agree with it or disagree with it, it's an issue that I honestly can not comment on.

And Mr. Van. Congratulatioons on still having a wife after the 6 weeks, must be some woman you have. Let's see how she handles another 6 weeks now :)

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

the "problem" is not arising because FIRST is allowing us to keep our controller for another few weeks, all besides the rookies, everyone had an oi and rc to work with to control their clone robot in the event their team decided to go down that path. I personally think that there is nothing wrong with driving a bot around, getting practice. In fact, I see no real problem with them building a second robot to trouble shoot a design with. Unless the contraption was built during the 6 week period, they have to re-engineer the part on site at the regional. Anything that the team is able to construct within that first day I see no problems with.It's not liek they can completely re-design and build their arm out of raw materials when they arrive. This is nothing new for FIRST teams and I see no reason why everyone is getting all upset. Granted, the prgrammers get a few more weeks but then, I believe that such rules even the playing field for rookie teams who have not been able to construct an autonomus mode, and have a higher curve to climb than veterans. In all honesty, the effect of FIRST allowing teams to keep their oi will be minimal at most. Maybe we'll see more teams who run can with a functional autonomous mode this time. ;)

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I'm rather new to all of this. I was drafted just last week to help in the programming. On looking it all over, it seems to me that the programming should begin when the construction begins. A fully functioning robot is not needed to test the code in all circumstances (it is the best, of course).

In my panic to bring myself up to speed, seeing as how I've never programmed a robot before, I built a mini-bot using a robot kit that the school had sitting in a corner collecting dust. I think I spent 2 hours on it. With this silly mini-bot I have hammered out a potential solution to the "follow the white line" using the kits sensors. If what I have doesn't quite work, I think I know what to do next.

They finish the robot tonight...and now my work begins. Wish me luck!

Carl
"Try to relax and enjoy the crisis." Ashleigh Brilliant: Brilliant Thoughts

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

(in response to "Autonomy is forcing every team I know that is serious about trying to maximize there chances of doing well in the robot competition to build 2 robots")

I really have to disagree with how its a neccessity- we (341) are serious about doing well in this competition, but there is no way we could build 2 robots. First of all, we would not be able to afford two of every part, considering we are using almost every motor. Buying an additional OI, a bunch of spikes and victors, and all the other parts for our robot is just simply not possible. But hey, we still showed up all day on friday, saturday, sunday, and monday, 50+ hours in total over the weekend.

Keep in mind we are a veteran team with access to a full machine shop (tech center alliance), chances are if we can't make a second robot then the majority of other teams can't as well..


I can tell you we would LOVE to have a second daisy to practice autonomous with. The fact is, we can't do that. Last year we seeded 4th in Galileo and won it all even after only having one robot, thanks to our programmer spending hours on perfecting his gyro. I applaud all of the teams that can achieve this, but we're thrilled to just finish our one robot.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

Our programmer has been working from day one. We switched out RC's on last years bot and he has programmed several options for competition. It takes more time to switch the battery on our robot than it would to make a new program.

Work from week one and you won't need the extra time.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

RAGE has for a long time now made two robots that were as identical as possible. We are also lucky enough to have a space donated to our team in which we can build a full size playing field every year and we have always been willing to open it up to other teams in the area if they wanted practice. All you would have to do is ask our team leader Mr. Nystrom and he would be willing to set something up with your team. I have found that have the second bot gives your drivers a feel for the robot, but not always an advantage. Last year we still had mechanical issues that were not encountered while practicing, like our arm chains breaking all the time. So just becuase you are able build a second robot doesn't mean you are able to account for everything that might happen on the field at a competition. And it definately doesn't prepare a rookie team or a rookie drive team in general for the pressure placed on them during a real life competition.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

This is a good reason to get rid of the "ship after 6 weeks" rule. Teams that build two robots (to work while their robot has been shipped) are already working through the entire competition. The six week deadline isn't saving these teams any work or any stress. In fact, if we didn't have to ship the robots, these teams would be doing less work (since building a second copy of the robot is obviously more work than only building one copy and keeping it).

It seems to me that the only teams that build two robots are the teams that have the money and/or manpower to do it. If FIRST is interested in a level playing field (for the small teams), then perhaps it's time to do away with shipping the robot off in 6 weeks. That way, everyone has a robot to work with between competitions.

I also think that this takes away some of the advantage to going to many regionals. At the regionals, the teams get to work on their robots, work on programming, make modifications, fix problems, etc. The more regionals you go to, the more opportunity you have to fix things. If teams keep their robot, every team has equal opportunity to fix the robots, make modifications, etc.

Some may argue that this takes away from the "real engineering experience" of having a deadline. I disagree. You would still have a very real deadline: your first competition. If you don't like having to work on the robot at the end of six weeks, then don't - no one would be forcing you to.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I work with my team 11 months a year. So the additional time is not that big of a deal. Also, I am not the primary "robot mentor". I have three other adults who head that up. I am the teacher that runs everything else. The key, I think, is to have other adults and students to help.

If you really want to be sneaky... find something on the team your wife may want to help with. When she is addicted like you... that is when the real fun begins.

Shawn
Team 60

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

I agree that it's really taxing when the build season doesn't end with the six weeks. It's like "Well, robot is shipped. Let's keep working." But I think that it's part of the Gracious Professionalism thing; It all has to do with your mindset of what you're doing with your time.
If you think of it as: the coding or robot that you have at the end of the 6 weeks is your final product, barring some totally unexpected freakish bug, and you're using the post-build time as specifically testing the robot, I think it's ok.
It's like in the real world: The product that Ford or GM ships is the final version of the car for that year, but if there's a problem, then they can issue a recall and fix it, or a customer can bring it in under warranty. As long as you're just "tweaking" the existing model (program code) and not creating an entire new one or changing it drastically, I think it fits in with the spirit of FIRST.


Two of our so called "Robot Widows" ended up getting so fed up with the engineers not being home, that they decided to be part of the team too.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

One of our engineers has been working with the team so much his wife did that too.

Re: Building more than one robot / expanding the "season"
 

To me, that is a very profound thought. The 6 week rule is something that has been so consant in my 5 years in FIRST, that I'd never enven considered getting rid of it. I will have to give it some thought, but I think I may end up liking it.

As for 'robotics widows', one of our electrical engineers made a deal with (got an ultimadum?) with his other. Try comming to meetings for a year, and if you like it, then stay, if not, she gets a cat to keep her company. As it turns out a few years later, his current job is keeping him later, so she is at more meetings then he is. For the currious, 'she' is MissInformation.


Wetzel