Collaboration..
 

We are asking that all discussion of collaboration be put on hold for a little while. We may start up a moderated discussion a little later on, but for now let's talk about other things.

The debate that was mentioned here last night, and for most of today, has been canceled. Keep an eye out for a place (moderated forum, possibly) to discuss this and other hot topics.

Thanks.

Re: Collaboration..
 

This should go without saying, but censorship is bad. A special forum for such topics is okay. A moderated one? Not so much.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Since the collaboration thread was closed Tuesday night, how then did a member of team 254 post the last word? Stud Man Dan was the last person on before it was "closed". I tried to post shortly after the Stud Man and it had been closed by then. I got a daily notification just this morning that there had been another post to the thread. It seems it is closed to some then but not to all?

Re: Collaboration..
 

That post was in another thread, that got dismantled/removed. I put the post on the end of that thread, to combine all discussion into one place.

Re: Collaboration..
 

My apologies. I did not mean to insinuate favoritism. That thread truly had run it's course. Everybody has an opinion. But in truth, the only opinion that matters is the official one from FIRST. And since the question was finally posted to the Q & A system, it is only a matter of time....

BTW You do a great job with the forums.

Re: Collaboration..
 

what kind of forum web site is this when a good topic of debate comes up it is shut down? I loved following the thread and the opinions of the people in it for the few short days it was up. Why would there be any reason at all to shut down such an interesting thread? What ever happended to free speach and the right to your own opinion? and if this thread is reopened in a moderated version than that would be just plain rediculous. Its not like people in the thread were insulting or threating each other. Why would there be a need for a moderator anyway? and another thing, i have seen posts delibretly altered by you (yes i mean you brandon martus) to change the opinion the post displays from that of the writer to your own opinions. Isn't that a little illegal there buddy? some things about this site just don't make sense to me. please reopen this thread and never shut down another thread for such reasons ever again. Now that i said something bad about this site im sure my precious single reputation point is down the drain and the chiefdelphi hit squad is heading twoards my house right now but i just can't stand back and say nothing when theres something to be said.

Re: Collaboration..
 

what the hell are you talking about when you say that the only opionion that matters is that of FIRST. are you stupid or something? EVERYONES opinion matters. I truly hate this site and all of the people that post on it. when dean and woody started this organization im sure they did not expect to create a whole community of nice ninkempoops that constantly blabber about gracious profesionalism and immediatly shoot down anyone who has an opinion other than that of their own. i said it before and i'll say it again EVERYONE has the right to their own opinion and 95% of the people on this site have to chill out and lighten up a little

Re: Collaboration..
 

I've always thought that people shouldn't tell others what to do when they are not willing to do the same thing. Since you feel so strongly about everyone's opinion, I wonder why you are judging other's opinion so critically and calling them stupid? Do you truely believe people want to listen to you when you are using words like "hell", "stupid", and "hate"? That sound very emotional to me. I cannot understand how you can tell people to "chill out and lighten up a little" when you are not doing that yourself.

Putting aside the way you wrote your message (because I believe people's attitude and facts should be considered seperately), it is my opinion to disagree with your statement that there is no need for moderation in the thread you are talking about. If you pay attention to it, you would notice there were a lot of posts calling others cheaters, and a lot of claims that are simply untrue, and have no evidence to back them up. I would like to quote Stevek from 254 in his message:

"When looking at some posts of those assigned the “con” side of the proposed “debate” – we realize that many statements have been for neither discussion nor debate, rather they have been statements of assumption, attack and accusation that unfairly slander our teams. As all our actions and intentions have been within the exiting FIRST rules, it troubles us that these people have used words like “cheat”, “broken rules”, and have implied our teams have “not been straight” about our goals. This is not only hurtful to us mentors, but more importantly to our students. Statements like these show very little knowledge of our teams, are unfounded, unfair, and ungracious – and clearly show us that continuing a “debate” would mean we would either need to lower ourselves to that level or defend ourselves against baseless and incorrect claims."

It is my opinion that this forum serve the community best when the discussion is constructive. In this case, I do not believe the discussion was organized enough to serve that purpose.

A lot of time have been spent writing messages in this thread when the teams really need to spend that time to finish their robots. That's why we should respect the teams' request to not participate in the debate. When build period is over, maybe we can consider opening up the debate again so everything can benefit from a constructive discussion by both sides, and form their own opinion about this topic base on facts and objective discussion.

This website is created to help FIRST participants connect with each other through the internet, but it is not the only place to do so. If you truely believe there should be more discussion you truely feel passionate about, then maybe you should start your own forum/e-mails and invite others to participant in that discussion with you.

Re: Collaboration..
 

FIRST has the final say on if this is illegal or not. Therefor, our opinions, while being valuable to the FIRST community and our teams, do not effect this particular subject. You can have your opinion and post it if you like, but when opinions turn into attacks, they stop being helpful. Besides, if you hate this site so much, then why are you posting here? I agree that if something that needs to be said isn't being said, you should post. But only in a constructive and professional way.

Re: Collaboration..
 

The thread was shut down for good reasons. People were getting a bit out of control, calling good teams cheaters and saying slanderous things. Actually, things got so out of control so quickly during a time when many moderators did not notice the thread getting ridiculous. 60 and 254 were being straightforward and upfront on everything, and they got slapped around for it many times. That is unfortunate. Personally, I am sorry that I didn't catch it earlier and tried to help stop the action.

As for the site, you can't just post what you want on here. This is ChiefDelphi's site, and Brandon is in control as webmaster. You need to back off. There is no illegality of censorship here. Get a clue.

That is just lovely. This will make us all respect your opinion greatly. So why do you waste your time posting on here if you feel this way?

Andy B.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Yes, you do.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Send me a PM with an example. I don't remember doing so, but I could be wrong.

Not according to the rules (that you agreed to), it isn't.

Re: Collaboration..
 

The Constitution gives you the right to say whatever you want to, within limits (e.g. you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre just for fun). But that right applies to public speech, and preventing the government from interferring with that ability. However, this is a private forum, and reasonable restrictions on tone, behavior and content CAN be enforced. When you participate in this forum, you agree to abide by the "rules of the road" and behave as a reasonable member of this community.

We are all free to disagree with each other, and engage in a reasonable debate. You have an absolute right to your opinion. If you choose to state it clearly, and in a manner than does not violate the standards of decorum, then you are welcome to take advantage of the forum provided by Delphi for such exchanges.

But the standards of behavior here are very clear. If the tone of the messages cross over from a reasonable, articulate debate or constructive criticism into personal attacks, insulting drivel or vituperative bile then you have gone too far. At that point, Delphi has the absolute right to regulate what is posted on their web site in whatever manner they see fit. And the rest of us have the absolute right to ignore whatever we want to.

Remember that what you do here, and what you say here, reflects on you, your team, your school, and your organization. Does the message quoted above, with the phrasing you have used, generate the sort of impression that you want this community to have of you (and your team)? When we all see Team 293 in competition, should your message be the last impression we have in our heads regarding how your team behaves?

-dave

Sorry to even post...
 

If I can just propose that this discussion end, I would much appreciate it. The majority of us agree with what is going on in regards to the thread being shut down, and we are patiently awaiting FIRST's final words. Let us not waste our time replying to posts within this thread, as more than likely we will not agree with them. I am asking this thread be shut down, as it is not important to the robotics realm.

Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, but I felt this was an unnecessary portion of Delphi's forums to read. I refuse to comment on the above arguments however, as I feel they could be taken on with private messages versus an open debate.

We all make mistakes at times, and slip with things that we say. Lets just move on and forget about this instead of turning it into another lengthy thread. Lets not drag this out.

-Carlo Jr.

Re: Sorry to even post...
 

Why is it that whenever a thread starts to get interesting, it is shut down? I understand the balance between the right to free speech and an editor or moderator's responsibility to maintain an appropriate atmosphere, but it seems like there have to be better ways to handle it than to lock down a thread.

I see nothing wrong with moderating a specific thread, not to weed out ideas, but to establish an appropriate tone and curb offensive behavior. Another option would be to forbid people from posting in a thread or posting without review if their behavior is unacceptable. This is not censorship in any meaningful sense, especially if the moderators are of the caliber we've seen around here. It's a time out, which won't be so bad if the thread stays open. It gives those who get too excited a chance to cool off, and find a way to express themselves in a manner in tune with the community that they're a part of.

Something like this has to be going on already - for the thread to be shut down there has to have been many deleted posts that were over the line. Most of the stuff in there is good discussion.


/edit: a defnintion that was useful to me:

vituperative - marked by harshly abusive criticism; "his scathing remarks about silly lady novelists"; "her vituperative railing"

Re: Sorry to even post...
 

First, that isn't always true. There are arguments here on CD that do have a tendency to get out of hand, off-topic, or altogether just go bad. Also, if you look back, there are quite a few threads that have pushed many limits without actually being shut down. The necessity of discussion about certain topics is evident, however these forums are kind of like this year's game: Expecting everyone to understand and not test the limits of gracious professionalism. There is a lot of activity on these forums (and throughout FIRST) that ISN'T always positive, doesn't always follow any kind of graciousness towards others, and does not maintain a professional aura. Especially on the 'gracious' and 'professional' end - do you think Ben is going to ask his boss to "lighten up and chill out a little"? Or try telling your co-workers that you hate them and the way that they make the work atmosphere. That will take any kind of reputation 'points' you have in reality and certainly flush them down the toilet.

This would be a great option, but unfortunately not very feasible. For example, when moderators were trying to edit the 'Robot Collaboration' thread, most of the posts had been coming at them rapid-fire and it's hard to keep up with them. This kind of system could delay posts at a day or more, depending on the topic; you can't just pick out certain people because not every post by a certain person may offend, just one or two. It's much easier to edit the post, PM the person, and say 'I edited/Can you please edit your post to make it sound more gracious and less offensive. If you have any problems with this, please contact me and we can talk about it.' Along the lines of that thread also, many people were posting specifically TO one person or a group, posting offensive material, posting replies to their friends... posting without thinking about things and simmering down. A lot of apologies and responses were recieved by moderators after the thread was closed, thanking them for not letting things get too out of hand (from both sides of the argument).

But that's just one thread, one argument, and these are expansive forums. Like Brandon's post said, by posting on these forums, you agree to certain rules. I'm going to post the following, and hope this brings a refresher to all users (in violation or not).

If you have a problem with any of those rules, need clarification, or would like to make a suggestion, please PM one of the moderators of the forums (their names are located at the end of the page of each forum).

Re: Collaboration..
 

If someone is going to behave in a manner that is either unprofessional or disgracious, I do not believe that they deserve to have moderators cleaning up after them. Their behavior should speak for itself and, whether we'd like to admit it or not, is representative of that person. We all have moments when we make poor decisions, but it seems disingenuous and fake to try to erase those moments or otherwise pretend that they do not exist.

I don't think that having a moderator edit someone's post is going to teach them very much about their behavior. It will show them that they did something inappropriate, yes, but it will do absolutely nothing to make them understand why it is inappropriate or whom considers it inappropriate. Those lessons can only be learned by experiencing the repercussions of their actions, uncensored and unshielded.

Re: Collaboration..
 

I don't know if anyone's seen this, but...this may perhaps bring an end to the arguments:

FIRST's Official Words

and...

This was taken from the Q&A section 5.3.2.2 in case anyone wants to know

Re: Collaboration..
 

You clearly missed my point. We all have the right to our opinions, even you! But FIRST has the final say in this discussion. FIRST's "opinion" is what we all have to live with. So ultimately it IS the only one that matters. Now that FIRST has spoken on this issue, we all must abide by there "opinion", whether we agree or not.

Re: Collaboration..
 

The reason we need moderators is because of people like you. Brandon, along with all of the other moderators, do a GREAT job on these forii. If any post is edited for content, it is not to change the poster's point of view or opinion, it is for appropriateness and content. If you posted a something with a link to a website that could contain "adult content", it is not unthinkable for a moderator to put a note on the end of the post saying "this site contains adult content, view at your own risk, etc, etc." I can't imagine someone posting something and Brandon editing it to say "Wait, just kidding - I really meant to say this which is exactly what Brandon Martus thinks and completely opposite of my previous view." :rolleyes:

So why are you even here, if you hate the site so much? If you have such strong negative feelings towards all of us, why don't you just leave?

I'll agree with you on one point - Dean and Woody did not intend on creating a group of people who shoot down other people's opinions. Thank God that didn't happen! Gracious professionalism is a big thing in FIRST - it's one of the things that sets it apart from every other competition! I'm glad we have the "nincompoops" that blabber about gracious professionalism. At least they're getting the idea out there.

And thank you for sharing yours.

Re: Sorry to even post...
 

Threads get shut down because what some people call "interesting" other people call "out of control." There have been many threads I would consider genuinely interesting. There have also been many that I would consider genuinely out of control. Unfortunately, in many situations, people feel the need to post opinions flaming someone or something, and when that happens, things tend to get out of hand. Such matters tend to snowball until they get out of control, at which point, a lock is about the only way to cool things down. It's not perfect, and we hate doing it, but sometimes, it's just the only solution.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Now that there has been an official response from FIRST, I'd like to see a place to discuss this. Perhaps trev2023's post could be the beginning, either in the general forum or the FIRST-A-Holic's Anonymous Mailbox (since we already have a moderated forum).

Re: Collaboration..
 

I will set up a moderated forum tonight, and I suppose this can be the first topic.
Stay tuned..

Re: Collaboration..
 

"The opinions expressed in these forums are not necessarily the opinion of Team 293, Hopewell Valley High School, or Bristol Myers Squibb"
First of all Team 293 is just like any other FIRST team. We work hard to make our money and build our robot. We are proud that 90% of our robot is built by students and not by a bunch of engineers. If you have ever met is in competition we are just as friendly as the next team. We will happily lend assistance to anyone anytime. Team 293 prides itself in the behavior of its students in the competition, thats evident whenever you pass our pit and see so many students working on the robot while our mentors watch.
Teams in no way should interoperate the actions of one person as a reflection on our team.

Re: Collaboration..
 

While people shouldnt judge an entire team based on one member's actions, unfortunately, they do. Other people's statements may not have a direct impact on you, but they very well could affect how people view your team for years to come.

Cory

Re: Collaboration..
 

No, but you are a representitive of Team 293, Hopewell Valley High School, and Bristol Myers Squibb...and even though varying people might have different opinions, you are still responsible for your words and actions as a representitive of that team.

Re: Collaboration..
 

It's true ... take a look at Andy Baker's signiture:

"What I write here may be my own opinions, but whether I like it or not, I am a representative of my team, Delphi, and Kokomo, Indiana."

Mmmhmmm.

Re: Collaboration..
 

While I don't think anyone's suggesting that's the way things should be, it's life. We shouldn't judge others based on behavior that wasn't their own, but we do. It's our greatest asset and our worst flaw.

Re: Collaboration..
 

I go to alot of messageboards and I always call Chiefdelphi the "Clean Room" because almost all message boards are infested with trolls, posters who hang around to do nothing more than cause trouble, often with multiple accounts(I guess they feel the annomynous nature of the internet gives them a lisence to be a jerk. I have seen some pretty cruel things done through these kind of actions. And some of them go beyond harmless michief to taking advantage of emotinal scars for the sake of sick amusement).
While some complain about Brandon's controlling it keeps this element out. I have never seen a troll on this page, not even once. That's pretty impressive.

Re: Collaboration..
 

I wanted to insert my opinion here on both topics:

-On freedome of speach, I think this whole topic is swayed by the opinions of those reading it. I thought the collaboration thread was going very well, I though both sides were fair. But others disagreed. I thought 60 and 254 were avoiding questions by posting thier past, while others just wanted the truth, no spin. Other people thought those who disagreed were mean, ruthless, and vicious against poor helpless 254 and 60. When it comes down to it, it's in the best interests of the teams not to continue the discussion as it was, but to moderate it to make sure it's not just flame after flame.

-On representation of teams, what you say will sometimes reflect your team, I think that only a fool would think that personal opinions expressed here are shared by the whole team. If I say I like cheese, it dosn't mean all of 384 likes cheese. If I don't like the colaboration of 60 and 254 (just an example), it dosn't mean my whole team is against it.

I think everyone is touchy when it comes to this, since they spend hours, weeks, and months designing, building, and loving their robot, only to post it here to much criticizing.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Dear Chief Delphi community,
I would like to apologize for my posts and i feel HORRIBLE about my actions. What the heck was I thinking, I was the idiot, and I was stupid. For those of you who looked past the tone and language of my post and comented on the actual point of it, thank you. Please do not hold a grudge against 293 but you can think whatever you want about me. I will take responsability for my actions and I will keep this account and try regain my credability. My posts were irrashional and irresponsable. I do not hate this site or the people who post on it. This site is an amazing tool that has contributed greatly to the growth of FIRST. Everyone who posts here has my respect even though at the moment i might not have theirs. if you would like to talk to me you can private message me or im me. I will try my hardest to prove to everyone that i am not a terrible person. I am asking for forgiveness even though i deserve none. i leave you with these words "THINK BEFORE YOU POST".

Ben Van Selous

Re: Collaboration..
 

Ok. I think we got a good cool down period. FIRST have made their ruling on this issue, and I think we can have a civilized discussion about that ruling. If other moderators have no objection, I would like to start a thread in the moderated area and have a discussion about FIRST's decision. Keep in mind that this discussion is going to be about FIRST's decision, and not about team 254 and 60. Also, any negative remarks to bad-mouth FIRST will be most unwelcomed.

I will wait a little to hear if any other moderators have objections about this.

Re: Collaboration..
 

I really dont want to interrupt, this is purely something from me and not my team:

The other day I was hanging out with a bunch of people from Thailand. I soon got intrested in their history and stuff. Let me tell you what I learnt, maybe adopting a bit of this might help.

Typical Thai people/ a little history: A long time ago when the British had tried to control Thailand, the British forced them to convert them to Christianity. Since the Thai people dont really take things too seriously, they attended the Church but never converted. They never took it seriously and went on with life nice and cool. Infact, they followed their culture as usual. Typical Thai people are like that, as per what I have heard. We might just want to cool down a little bit.

On the other hand, When the French and British wanted to invade Thailand, The kings were clever. They never had enough army to resist their forces. So instead they gave a small part of their country to French and a small part to British. British and the French fought each other and the kings saved their country. So even though they were cool, still they were tactful. No offence to anybody on here, its just something that might help.

Cheer up, Life is good
-Tekno Bramha

Re: Collaboration..
 

If any of you have noticed Ben has replied and apologized for his remarks, I am also informed he PM'd a large number of people with apologies including the moderators. We all recognize that these remarks were foolish, but I am pleased that at least Ben had the guts to publicly admit he was wrong. Not a lot of people would have done that. Lets move on from this unpleasant subject.

Re: Collaboration..
 

Yeah. Ben apologized via PM.

I'm going to close this thread. There is a collaboration thread open in the Moderated Forum if anybody has anything else to say about that discussion.