Winning Robot Strategy
 

I didn't see a thread of such thus far, so here goes.....

What does the game this year seem to really boil down to? And resulting, how would you describe a winning robot or winning gameplay?

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

The best ones in portland seemed to knock off bonus ball in autonomous and then hang. I don't think the two teams I saw doing that lose to often. Efficient ball gatherer work well too. Most balls I've seen in a goal so far was 13. Kudos to the HP.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Simple answer: The one that scores the most.

Detailed answer: It's honestly too early too call it. From what I've seen at the regionals some robots still that aren't 100% functional, so it's really hard to tell what's going to win in competition. However, right now my guess would be that hanging and penalties are going to be the deciding factors in this years game. The robots that can hang and the players don't penalize themselves are going to be the ones that win this year.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I think teams that best manage thier time will do best. Kind of like running the West Coast Offense. Script your strategy. In Autonomous knock off the ball or better yet retreive it. In the next 30 seconds or minute either corral balls or get the mutiplyer. With a minute to go finish up whatever task you were doing and get up on the ramp and start preparing to hang the bot. Any shorter time frame and your likely to rush and either tip the bot or not leave yourself enough time to do your job. That's just one strategy. The main one is: Know your strengths and stick to them.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Hanging is probably one of the best strategies :) 50 points in one shot. Thats the same as scoring 10 balls, which may be hard during some matches.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I don't think any one single robot can have a winning strategy. Even if you are an unsurpassably godlike team like Chief Delphi (your robot...HOW?), you cannot win a game in the 2 minutes that you have doing all the things you need to do.

The best strategy is to make the best use of your alliance that you can if you are fortuitious enough to have a match made in heaven. Take Team Force and Hyper 69, for instance. Our robot can efficiently and quickly gather up to four balls at a time and deliver them to the human player. Hyper 69 can cap either goal and hang. Now, Hyper 69 is undefeated, as their unique design almost guarantees them well over 50 points by themselves (their human player is very good--Joe, you da man). And while our team is probably not going to win a match all by our lonesome, we can very easily facilitate a team with capping abilities.

For instance...on the Thursday practice session, everything ran smoothly. Our robot knocked off the ball release, and Joe and I combined to fill up both goals as our robot delivered 20+ balls to us. Hyper 69 capped the stationary goal and then hung as our robot made sure that the other teams did not cap their mobile goal. We scored well over 200 points.

Today, when everything didn't go as smoothly, we won 95-90--and that was without Hyper hanging and our robot breaking down near the end.

You just really need to hope for a good alliance partner. This is a game where one robot cannot do everything--again, not merely because of technical limitations but because of time limitations as well.

--Petey

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Okay. I revise my winning statement. The robots that maximize their score (and opponents score) while minimizing the number of bad alliances will win. Last year I saw some team really prescouting their alliance early in some cases. Particularly I remember a team working on another team's robot tread problems all Friday because they had a match together Saturday. That is a championship type team. You won't play every round with a world champion robot by your side but you can still perform well in most situations. The teams that are able to manage these situations so that the match is successful will be champions. Know your alliance partners well and be able to work with them to win. A single robot has a hard time winning this game. In most cases you could tell the alliance that knew each other fairly well and could work together well. In some cases that was a kit of parts pusher that drifts to the left and a hanger. In the elims. the team that can maximize this teamwork will win. Those who work best together will be best. Team 34 had a sign last year that said "Team 34 works well with others." and they won two regionals last year. I think that is a good lesson and prediction for this year.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

from what Ive seen from watching VCU and Oregon webcasts so far:

1.many bots have hanging and 2X arms, but only trivial means of pushing the balls around

2. pushing the balls towards the corrals is like herding cats

3. lots of teams either dont bother with getting the release ball in auton mode, or they are not able to get their auton mode to work - maybe because they are only focused on hanging?

4. teams that can collect the small balls and deliver them quickly ARE filling the goals up, and its not hard to get 11 balls in the stationary goal, which is worth 55 points alone - so if you can do that you will earn more points than a bot that can only hang - if you can collect 10 balls off the field + the 6 starter balls, thats 80 possible points and if you can cap it - thats 160

my conclusion? it looks like a lot of teams focused on hanging and the 2X ball, and only gave capturing and delivering the small balls a passing thought - I think the ones that control the small balls will win repeatedly.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I had to post this:

Cat Herders

I kind of agree but right now I don't think anyone is herder small balls right now. Once you get people good at herder or capturing and delivering the 2x hanging will become important. Right now hangers can change the score enough that sometimes it is worth more to just hang than waiting to cap and then hang or not.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

you are correct in that there are not many teams that have focussed on the small balls. there are a few, though, and the ones that do it well can prove to be quite useful.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

First off, that cat herders commercial is funny as hell!!!

I believe that the "perfect" alliance, consists of one robot that can catch and delever all 18 balls, and the other robot that can trip the bonus ball and than hang right away.

Keep it simple and you will win.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

autonomus knocks off ball... then grabs 2X ball... herds for a few seconds, caps stationary, hangs = win

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

And of course you say a catcher will win because that's what your team built. While I don't doubt that strategy will be successful (we almost did it, ourselves), I don't think that will be the only "perfect" alliance. Any robot that can get 18 balls, no matter how they do it, will be successful. So, I think more generally, the "perfect" alliance will have one really good small ball bot and one good hanger.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I was noticing during the Portland regional was that some of the ball grabbers were the ones that were winning. I only watched the competition for an hour though so I only saw about 15 matches. The majority of the time, the ones with autonomous and a good capper normally won. First they hit the 10 pt, then collected a few balls before removing a 2x ball from a mobile. They let the HP shoot for a little then capped and hung. Those that did that normally scored in the high 90 and 100's.

Some of the teams had a mixed combo of capper and ball gatherer that didn't fair so well but sometimes they did great. Just depends on the experience that the different teams had this year.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I think I am going to agree with Koko Ed, and ngreen on this. Winning Robot Strategies is going to come down to these 3 interdependent factors (in no specific order).

1. Ability to adapt to varying game situations, and ability to manipulate and influence the game in their favor.
2. How well teams are able to communicate, coordinate, and execute their plans in a effective manner (teamwork).
3. Reliability, and Effectiveness of your robot (including those in your alliance), and how "conditioned" the drivers, and human players are.

No one robot in this entire organization will be able to "dominate the field" for this game. Unlike in previous games, the qualifying matches were usually about points, and in the elimination rounds, it was all about pure strength and power. With FIRST Frenzy, there are too many variables. This is why selecting an alliance member that compliments your team's robot is crucial. With all of these variables, teams are going to run into several different types of robots in competition, in which they have to implement different strategies for different types of robots. This makes scouting a bit difficult as well. The robot, drivers, and human players must perform harmoniously. The robot must be in top condition (thanks to the pit-crew); it also helps to design and build a robot that is rugged, reliable, yet efficient in it's primary function. The drivers and the human player must also be skillful. Just look at the VCU Regional. The Championship Final Match at that regional competition was decided by one 5-point ball. It was that close. I was not there (watched the webcast), but all of the elimination rounds were spectacular. Just a sweet taste of things to come.

On a side note, I was a bit surprised at the amount of penalties given out during some of the matches.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Instead of retyping something that has already been well stated in real time, I will just post the link.
It is a play-by-play of the Finals in NJ!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=66

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Build a robot that does as much as possible well. For example we are great at hanging, good at the 2x mltiplier, and not too bad with the small balls. Even in an alliance with a bulldozer we can do well. If we are matched with a great herder/hopper we will cap. If we have a great capper, we will hang. If we both need to push, thats fine, we will push and then hang. The key this yearis versatility and having an autonomous that knocks off BOTH teams balls during autonomous (but of course has an option to only hit one side note:see team 33, they do this VERY well). That way you can maximize points and chances of being selected/winning a lot.

~The thoughts and oppinions expressed above are those of an individual, not necessarily those of an entire team.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I watched the VCU finals, then the rest of the Oregon regional... from what I could see, I think the best team would be:
one robot with good ball collecting and a good human player
along with another robot that can cap the stationary goal from behind, and then quickly hang.

At VCU, Buzz had amazing ball collecting ability, and a great human player. But I didn't see many of their partners taking advantage of capping a full goal.

I think in general the cap-and-hang robots will dominate the preliminary rounds. A cap-and-hang team should be able to score 100 pts on their own (5 small balls in stationary goal, 2X cap, and hang).

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I think what will win this year will be the same as always. Organization and team work. Know your alliance, plan out, and execute, and any robot can do fine. :)

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

As an observer at BAE in NH, the teams picked were mostly hangers. 2 robots hanging = 100 points. 4 out of 6 balls in goal = 20 points. After doing the math it is hard to beat. It was a difficult task to have 4 hangers at once unless 1 was from the field.
I did notice that from day 1 to day 2 then to elimination rounds that the game changed each time. We figured that the 1st day averaged about 35 points per side. That was a lot different than the finals.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

just got back today from the portland regional. good stuff, but many robots weren't functional, and the top seeds were weak teams who truly got lucky with good draws for partners in the qualifying matches.

the top seed won the whole thing -- titan robotics, 492 -- who had a VERY effective ball herding and VERY consistent 2X ball manipulator, and they had the autonomous knock-off 10 pt. ball DOWN. they ALONE averaged 70 - 120 points/match. they made excellent picks, and their alliance partner was a consistent hang-only robot.

i could rattle off other factors, but i'll end with this -- it is true that penalties killed alot of teams, but also, i think the push/shove/interference factor will increase exponentially. teams will go into a match with a sole purpose of just shoving/toppling the opponent. that's what happened ALOT in the later rounds. either an incredibly good ball herder or a very consistent hang bot are likely to emerge as top seeds and winners. but i'm pretty sure at nationals there'll be bots that can do some other crazy thing...

our team, team 824, was prequalified for nationals, so we made the ultimate sacrifice at portland to test and improve our bot for nationals, instead of focusing on trying to win portland. we've got an ambitious design that's gonna wow the crowd, and we're a month away from showing it off -- watch out!

congratulations to all the teams that have played so far, and good luck to the future regionals.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Is it just me or does autonomous doesn't seem as important this year as it was last?
Last year if you made it up the ramp and knocked the bins over to your opponent's side you had a pretty good advantage over them. This year releasing the balls is only a big deal to ball collectors and it didn't kill them to wait anyways.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Two robots that can hang, regardless of the other tasks that they can do. It helps if one robot can control the bar while the other can handle small/big balls before getting on the bar in the last 30 seconds.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Another vote for keeping it simple. Do one thing well, not two things ok. The great alliance picks will come to you if you can shine at what you do.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I like what 237's robot did. Being able to move back and forth on the bar seem like it was a great advantage.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I know that many of the matches we were in the whole objective of our strategy was to get on top and play king of the hill and not let the opponents up there...For the most part the whole match was determined with the fifty points from hanging....From what I saw at BAE was that pushing balls is impossible so the other deciding factor was who put the most human player balls (the six from the start +1 or 2 more) in the stationary goal.
A couple teams handled the big balls well enough to be consistant.

-Pat

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I agree with the idea of doing one thing and doing it extreemly well

if the ball catchers we have seen on CD are coupled with an excellent HP - they have the potential to rack up 100 to 120 points just buy scoreing the small balls

twice that if their alliance caps the goal, or an extra 50 if their alliance can hang - that puts them in the 150 to 240 point range

from what we have seen, breaking 100 points is above average

or a team that can collect balls from the floor is in a similar postion, maybe even a little better because they can pick up missed shots, and balls that came over from the other side of the field

in general, if you try to build a bot that can do everything, then it only does each individual function in an average manner - if design your bot to do only one thing, then you can devote all your resource, weight, motors, sensors... to doing that one thing, and doing it exceedingly well

this year, that one thing appears to be getting the balls from the field to the human player.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I thought about the same thing, than it reminded me of kickoff where it was said that you can build the simplist machine and still win.

Maybe this is FIRST's way of giving some of the teams (and rookie teams) who couldn't get their auto mode working last year (or not working consistantly) a chance.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

The alliance that won in NJ had the following robots:

237- was in every round, was hanging within 30 seconds every round and slid across the bar with an awesome mechanism, stopped someone from hanging practially every round

303: The best small-ball sucker that could also cap effortlessly

56: a large-ball capper who could also hang well

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

at the BAE Regional, it seemed to be that robots that could hang were the ones that were dominating. One of the elimination rounds, 4 robots were hanging on the bar. Most of the teams in the elim. rounds were hangers, except a few.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Im going to say that there is no one supreme robot design. A great allance would be made of robots that could hang. A robot that can catch the balls and two other robots who could empty the balls into it in auto mode. As well these other robots should be able to control the 2X multiplyers.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I know the reason teams in St. Louis have done so well is the fact that strategy comes first. It doesn't matter what robots are there, it's just how you use their strongest abilities. As a team we have placed very well at all regionals and nationals but maybe once were paired with a top 5 team ever.


[size=2]Last thing to keep in mind for alliance strategy; just because a top 15 team doesn't have an impressive robot doesn't make them a bad partner, their strategy might just help you win the whole shabang. SIZE]

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

The first best strategy is communication. A meeting between teams proves more effective than being able to decap and hang and capture small balls and give the head judge chocolates. Even if you (or your partner) are merely a box with wheels that can move occasionally, there is way to work it to your advantage. It also helps to anticipate your opponent's moves, and go through every match on a case by case basis.


However, I disagree with the statement "Do everything you can the best you can". The most successful robots could do only do one or two game functions, yet they did -function- consistantly. A small ball manipulator with the capacity to cap and decap seems the most successful mix of functions that scores the most points. Good advice for teams that attempted to do everything: Stick with your best attibute and work on making it better. EG: 571 Paragon had an excellent small ball manipulator, alright big ball manipulator, and a little used, complicated winch system for hanging. They had trouble functioning with the cumbersome winch, and lost every match until they removed it. Their most effective matches are where they herded all the small balls on their side fo the feild, and then picked up the 2x and capped the stationary goal.

So stick to the basics and expound on your best virtues when it comes to elims.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

I was talking about this with a couple people the other day. We figured that the best possible alliance would be between a tall robot that could cap the stationary goal and hang from the bar and a short robot that could gather balls very efficiently and cap the mobile goal.

Interesting.

--Petey

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

As the member of team 824 said, the winners of the Portland regional (429, 1031, 957) complimented each other's abilities.

Team 492, a small ball gatherer and capper, ended up seeded #1, after going 8-1 in qualifications. We were actaully helped out by oposing robots hanging, as we had, by far, the highest ranking score in the top 15. With just one opponent hanging, we could easily win with just six balls in the goal with it capped. We often had as many as ten, and one time we had twelve balls in the big goal before capping it.

1031 was the most consistent hanger at the regional. In seven out of nine matches, they ended up hanging. They were easily our first pick alliance partner.

957 hung 5 out of the 9 times, tied for second place with a plethora of other worthy teams. They were just the lucky ones that the other teams overlooked until we got to pick again.

In elimination matches, both 957 and 1031 performed admirably, although 753 (picked by the number 6 alliance, and overcoming two higher ranked alliances to meet us in the finals) outdueled them in one game, toppling them.

492 had trouble only once with a robot harassing us as we tried to cap the big goal, but we still won that match due to many 5 pointers and a hanging robot.

Now that I've said all that, here are the conclusions that I draw from our experiences:

The best alliances will consist of robots that, in comibnation, do all three things well: hanging, small ball colection, and big ball capping.

Thats who we won the PNW regional.

See you in Atlanta!

~Ryan

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

BUZZ was at BAE

i think the best alliance, is someone who can control the 2xball, and both hang.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Defense was vary important in the finals - knocking your oponents on there back is a good way to reduce there score, and that happened a lot at PNW. If all you can do is hang - all an opponant has to do is prevent you from hanging either by getting there first and playing king of the hill or letting you get ther FIRST and running up the ball score.

I think the finals in Atlanta are going to be very interesting.

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Strategy twist at portland.


IF the balls aren't triggered, uncap your mobile goal and but it under your opponents (or yur) ball drop. If well positioned this can get you six or more
balls and deny your opponents some. You then can cap whichever of your goals has the most points - I beleive the high scores in PNW got there at least twice using this trick. I which I had pictures - but my darn camera rest itself after a full load of great shots!

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

There are actually two Buzz's this year. I think one of them is a rookie team. I remember seeing it in the program book this weekend.
Can anyone confirm this?

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

there can only BE one BUZZ!

if a rookie team snarfed their name, they should change it a little

howbout:

BUZZlightyear?

BHUZZ?

FUZZ?

or if they are from massachuses:
BAHZZ?

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Yeah team 33, BUZZ the killer bees were definitly at VCU considering they were the alliance captain of the winning alliance. ;)

Re: Winning Robot Strategy
 

Just to clear up any misunderstandings, our team name is the Killer Bees. The robot's name is Buzz 9, some announcers call it Buzz for short I guess.