Sportsmanship!
 

Okay folks...........

Watching the Portland regional finals really set me over the edge, and I have been hearing of other occasions of poor sportsmanship.

First off, at the Portland Regional.........

Booing the referee's decision....... especially when it’s ANDY BAKER!!! I mean for Christ sake people, don't you know what a god he is (and the decision was the right call weather you think so or not)?!?!?!?!!?

The referees are doing the best job that they can do. They volunteer their time for us! So please quit complaining

Just remember that when you have poor sportsmanship, or have no gracious professionalism, you are making your self look bad, your team bad, your sponsors look bad, and FIRST looks bad!!!!

There has been other bad sportsmanship that I have been hearing about at the regionals, and I am very disappointed. This is FIRST people; you are supposed to have fun!!! I know what it is like to be DQ'd in the finals but there is no reason to be stupid and not act mature over it. It happened, get over it.

Please help celebrate the idea of gracious professionalism and let’s have a great year people!

My 2.3453 cents.............

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Agreed. Just because the refs make a call that you don't like doesn't mean it's not justified. Refs 9/10 times are making great calls and doing the right thing, and please remember Referees are volunteers, so don't boo them or maybe they won't want to come back.

Show some respect.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

You mean Andy was the ref?!?! COOL! Anyway...

Yeah, guys, that's just bad. Thank god we didn't have that here, even with all of our new teams who don't have Gracious Professionalism under their belt yet. And this is comming from a team that won the sportsmanship award at VCU!

That's my 3.84 cents in the topic.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

That is horrible, and i know from a referee standpoint its bad to. People lets remeber the refs are volunteers they are not getting paid for this job. When i referee hockey i get booed all the time but i expect it, and the benifit i get out of it is i get a pay check. The people up on the field are doing this to help us, they are getting no benfit out of it except for maybe seeing the engineering or the students faces when they do good. But, there should be none of that at FIRST comp cause this is a friendly competiton, its not like a hockey game were you expected to get booood. If you think you have a unfair call, take it like a man wipe it off and worry about your next match

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

it was a good call i saw the match....the decision did not change the outcome of the match....plain and simple bad move on the part of the portland attendees that participated in the booing

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

I thought the same thing, the same call had been made many time at VCU and it was clearly stated..It hardly seemed like a FIRST event for that few seconds.
I agree they had some frustrations to work out with a lot of things messing up and many re-starts but its not only the first weekend, its just life.

Overall it was a good regional, Congrats to everyone

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Can you guys all stop acting like you're better than everyone else for a minute to show me what in the rules this dude's call is based on?

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

"That dude" happens to be Andy Baker. Sure, just because he has attained near god status doesnt mean that he is almighty and all knowing (Yes, that was Andy that disabled the wrong team during the finals :)), but I can guarentee you that he knows the rules better than 90% of the people who post on Chief Delphi, or attended the Portland regional.

If you dont like Andy's call, Im sure he will be happy to talk to you privately and explain why the call was made. For anyone who is upset just because they got "screwed", grow up. It's called life, and it aint fair, no matter how hard you try.

Anyone who comes around here and tries to diss the ref's isnt going to be too popular. I can't think of many things I hate more than people who crap on those who take time out of their lives, for what? Not for their own benefit, that's for sure.

Next time you see someone walking around in a striped shirt, take the time to thank them for their hard work. Dont worry, they wont bite you!

Cory

[edit] a situation from the 2003 Cal Games just came to me, and I think it's perfect.

My team, along with team 256 (thanks for picking us!), and team 254 made it all the way to the finals. When we got to the finals, we and 254 ran the first round, because 256 was broken and trying to fix their bot. We lost (I think?) this round, and moved to the second. Since 256 was still broken, we went again and won (Or was it the other way around?) For the third and final match, we were all set to go with us and 254 again, since 256 was broken. According to the rules (and as Mark Leon said during one match today) if a team breaks down, they do not have to play during the eliminations matches. However, certain individuals complained to the referrees and we had to take our robot off the field, resulting in the opposing alliance having a 2-1 advantage, and us losing.

The moral of the story is, while both us, 254, and most importantly 256 were denied a chance to win (In the case of portland, the same thing occurred, but the call was good) we had to deal with it like the adults we claim to be. Sure, we knew that we were right, and we shouldve been on the field, but complaining and arguing would have done nothing except to make us look bad to everyone at the event (Like booing the ref's today). We didn't even care about winning really, but we felt especially bad for 256, who had played well all day, then broken down during the finals. They were upset that we had to lose that way, and also thought that they had let us down, which was totally untrue, since they brought us into the finals. When everything was all said and done with, our teams were just as proud of the way that we had handled the situation as if we had won. Sure, it sucked, but we knew we did the right thing.

Wow, that was long.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Wow way to make your self look good. First off, this "Dude" won the Woodie Flowers Award last year, he is a team leader and an inspiration for thousands of students and other mentors in FIRST (including yours truly). So I would watch what you say.

To show you what Andy Baker's decision was on, read section 4.3.1, which are definitions. The definition "Supported" states: If the "supporting object" is removed............... the robot would not remain hanging.

If I am right, Andy said that he did not feel that the robot was solely supported by the top of the bar. This would be his interpretation of the rules. Don't like it? Instead of making a fuss about it, making your self look bad, and your team, why don't you be a little understanding of the position that Andy is in. It's not like he is bias towards certain teams, he does the best he can.

If this really upsets you this much and you have enough lack of compassion, maybe you should re-take a look of your morals regarding FIRST before you go to another competition.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Tyler, thank you very much for pointing me to this section of the rules. Cory, thanks for answering my question. Wait, did you answer my question? No, you didn't answer my question, you just attacked me for numerous paragraphs for saying that all of you should stop acting like you're better than everyone else. I appreciate volunteers as much as any of you; if it weren't for them I wouldn't be part of FIRST. Some people just need to chill out...

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Could someone please tell me the situation in the match and the call that was made. thanks

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

The situation was a robot was legally hanging and another push it so that its hook was pushed against the vertical bars attachment. Andy ruled that if the vetical bar wasn't there the hook would have slid off so he ruled they were not hanging. This is discussed in depth in Q & A if you want a reference to the situation.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

I hate to even be in this thread, but the whole thing SHOULD be deleted

complaining about a judges call is not GP

complaining about the actions of other teams or individuals is NOT GP EITHER!

telling someone their behavior is not good sportmanship is ITSELF not good sportsmanship

I dont even know what this is all about - apparently a difficult call was made and people were upset

does that surprize you?

why is it not ok for them to be upset, but its ok for you to be upset with them for being upset and coming on here, wagging fingers, using the Lords name, cussing.....

enough already - someone please delete this thread - its not worthy of this forum, or of FIRST.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

Though I do not agree with everything that you have said Ken, I agree this thread should be deleated, I will see to it.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

I believe the situation was that a hanging robot was supported by the flange on the bar, and that was ruled as an illegal hanging. We saw this call made all over the country, and you can't have one set of rules legal at one competition and another set of rules at another regional. That doesn't work.

Also, with the reports that there was booing of the referees, I'd like to take a step back and say that I hope there is remorse for such an action. We may all be in this program to win, but if you have the audacity to boo a volunteer that is out on that field to be just and fair, you must have missed that whole part of the kickoff that emphasized gracious professionalism. Who cares if it's Andy Baker? Andy Baker is ONE person out on that field. There's several other referees, judges, field resetters, etc. who are helping out that you are insulting. Just because this happens every year doesn't make it any less harsh.

In the heat of competition, a lot of things are said, assumptions made, and grudges held. I would advise you, having been in your exact position myself, to carefully think over what is being said. I would also like to remind you that all personal comments towards other users of the forum should not be posted here - PMing the person will get you better results and not have the rest of us wading through arguments when only looking for information.

Let's make the rest of this season as gracious as possible - let's see the model students that teams brag about, the helpful engineers, the inspiring coaches, and motivating mentors. Let's leave this childishness behind, and let's truly inspire all that we can.

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

i was at the portland competition, and was there when the call was made. i know it may not be of biggest consequence, but the booing that people may have heard on the webcast was solely done by 4 grown men who were sitting behind me. i did not observe any students or anyone else booing. it was indeed a very negative act, but hopefully the students learn by "inverse example".

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

I think that the way reffing was handled at the J&J regional was handled was amazing. I appologize for not knowing who the head ref was, but Friday when the group of refs were announced, he came right out and said that any problems were to be directed at him and him alone. I don't believe there was any booing at all, other than the fact that one match had to be redone. Peopel were just slightly upset because the match was 3/4 over and the head ref accidentally shut off the wrong bot. But the match was done over and everyone went on there way. I haven't seen anyone arguing about it today at all.

This Part is directed to those who had a problem with Andy Baker's Decision. Even though i wasn't there, this holds true for all of FIRST. You've just got to expect some problems at each competion. Be gracious and accept the fact that the call was made and that its too late to be reversed. I guarantee that at one point in your team's history, you've done something wrong and maybe the call wasn't made and didn't hurt you. I'm positive that you didn't go complaining then. Why, because it didn't hurt you...That's a bit hypocritical. Let it roll off...You've got a shot at the next regional/Nationals.

You don't have to agree, but try to be understanding.
 

If there are any more negative comments directed toward a certain individual instead of contributing positively to the discussion, I will have to start deleting some post. Please don't let that happen. These negative comments, no matter started by who, will be removed if they continue.

Anyway, back to the subject. There is a good way to deal with referee rulings, and there is a bad way to deal with referee rulings. Now, you may not agree with the ruling the referee made, but, that is no reason to yell at them or call them names. There is absolutely no reason to abandon sportsmanship and gracious professionalism even though you don't agree and want to question or object the judgment.

It is easy for people to get upset; some probably have good reasons too. I would be upset if the referee decided to give penalty to my team if I don't understand the reason behind the ruling (even if I do sometimes). I mean, if I spent 6 weeks to build a robot, and year round to build the team, I would be pretty upset if a ruling DQ my team in the competition. But, I would not choose to boo at the referee, or even use profanity (which happened before). Rather, I would talk to the referee (and the field manager if he/she was there), make sure there is no misunderstanding in the ruling process, and do the best I can to present my case. And if we still can't reach an agreement, well, that is unfortunate, but I personally will respect that the referee have the final say on the field. I can’t tell you what to do, but borrowing a saying from Joe J., I would suggest that you shouldn’t do what you wouldn’t do in front of your grandmother. I think the golden rule will also do nicely.


Now, we might not be able to change your view, but in my opinion, the referee and FIRST staffs are doing the best they can to run this competition. Some of them volunteer their time and energy even though they have a family, a full time job, and their own robotics team to run. My 6 years of FIRST experience that tells me they are not out there to get you. So, when you are dealing with difficult situations, and keep this thought in mind.

People don't have to agree with each other, but they can try to understand where the other person is coming from. Who knows, you may learn something in the end.

Finally, if you have serious disagreement with the way the referee interpreted the rule, than it is very likely that the rules can be rewritten to better express the intent of the rule. So, bring it up at the next team forum. Help FIRST make the rules better so situation like this will not happen again.

Understand that FIRST is made up by people too, and like all people, they are not perfect (yes that include you and me too ;-) ). So, let’s focus our energy and emotions in a positive way and make this program a better place for all of us, shall we?

Oh by the way if you feel like you want to vent your frustration, feel free to PM me. I promise I can be a good listener ;-).

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

7.6 Tournament Rules

<T01> Referees have ultimate authority during the competition. THEIR RULINGS ARE FINAL! The referees will not review any recorded replays.
_______________

Try to play the game with the upmost attitude. :) Even if you disagree with a ref's ruling, just learn to acknowledge that what is done is done, and learn to move on to the next match. It is not a great idea to get bent out of shape from a difficult ruling. You will just dwell on it everyday. Just make sure you learn something from that ruling.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

Hang on... don't delete this thread. I am working on a reply.

I am trying to get un-buried at work right now... bear with me.

Andy B.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

First of all, thank you all for the support. Cory and Tyler, thank you for the kind words. Amanda has a great point - it doesn't matter who makes these calls, they are tough to make and they eventually are just the way things are going to be.

As far as the booing, I really could care less since it was directed at me. A ref is a target. If there were people booing at a certain team that is another issue entirely. Also, the boos were not that much. 4 guys sound about right. More importantly, once the boos were heard, there was an overwhelming surge of applause by the rest of the crowd. I was not insulted or put off.

The Portland Regional was quite an experience. While I was disappointed that the field did not work as well as it should've, that did not overcome the overwhelming experience that I had. Simply put, the Portland teams are awesome.

Get this...

During this match, there was a negated hang and a very questionable entaglement. One team was trying to push a hanger and got their hook caught up in the other team's winch strap. After MUCH (too much) deliberation, I announced that the hang was not allowed since the hanger's hook was still being forced against the coupling. However, I also announced that the interaction between the hook and the strap was not a disqualifiable entanglement. The team who had their hang deemed not worth 50 points (and a few booed) won the match by balls and could've been DQ'ed by entanglement.

The 3 teams who lost this match are amazing. While they lost their chance to go on to the finals (it was the deciding match of the semi-finals), they did not give me any crap about it. They were disappointed and wanted an explaination, so I gave it. However, they acted very appropriately and showed much GP.

I relish the experience I had as referee in Portland. Many other tough calls had to be made in other matches and the teams competed well and were graceful along the way. Even when I screwed up one of the finals matches by disabling the wrong team, teams were graceful. I would chalk this experience up to being very frustrating with the FIRST field and scoring program, but also very rewarding from the angle of getting to know the teams and dealing with them through a tough competition.

For those of you out there who were thinking that the Pacific Northwest Regional was a easy ride or a regional with a bunch of weenie teams, you better think again. These teams fought hard for the championship. There were the tough veterans and the amazing rookie teams. They had shifting gearboxes, big ball handlers, funnel-bots, and many hangers. These robots had telemetry systems and sleek tread designs that looked better than anything I ever designed. Also, these teams helped each other out. We saw teams working on each other's robots, lending parts to each other during the elimination rounds and large cheering sections. It was quite impressive. If I didn't know any better, I would've thought that I was in Ypsilanti, Evanston, New Jersey, or Hartford. These teams in the NW have arrived... the rest of FIRST better watch out.

Andy B.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

i watched the call with bated breath. When it was made, well, it was understandable. Some people did boo... and that is something i don't like to see at any event. Booing, no matter the circumstances, is unsportsmanlike. In some ways, it might have just been people teasing the referee, but in others it is just plain rude. Still, this one happening was pretty minor. FIRST is always more sportsmanlike than any other event you can go to and, as Andy commented, Portland was no exception. The teams who go are the newer teams and this year they really stepped it up. The competition was feirce and the spirit was intense.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

My team's robot was the one who's hook got caught in the "not hanging" robot. I hope that it was only the adults booing; I would be ashamed if any of my team took part in it.
Andy was a great ref and this was a tough call. While team 1359 wishes he had ruled in our favor, we also respect his decision. Hopefully, you all realize that booing was not the norm at the PNW Regional and that there was a lot of gracious professionalism going on.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

While my team was impacted by a DQ for entanglement (not the one referenced but our team's 9th match and the only one that we lost) I was stunned that someone would actually BOO at a FIRST event. To say that I was taken aback is an understatement. This is something I would expect to hear out of freshmen on the team, not parents or mentors.

Though he did DQ my team, Andy Baker did a great job and called a fair game. There was no favoritism or taking of sides like we sometimes see in professional sports, but just a cleanly officiated game.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

OK, I gotta ask the question - is all booing wrong, ungracious and unprofessional?

I was watching the webcast and heard the booing, and I thought I saw Andy grinning - I'm guessing he expected it a little, and as he said he was not insulted or put off. Does booing mean you hate the guy? I doubt it - it means the ruling went against you, even if it was the correct one. Sometimes it's good natured heckling. I'd love to boo Andy sometime too except I couldn't do it with a straight face so he'd know I was just playing with him.

The competitions should be fun, good natured, spirited. If you get all upset about a ruling, rant and scream, make threats, etc. that's unsportsmanlike. If you question a ruling or disagree, then move on and forget about it, I think that is very much being a good sport.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

I was in the stands during the match, deliberation and ruling. At the end of the discussion among the refs, Andy took the mike and explained everything to the crowd. I was really impressed with how open he was with the audience, even making fun of there being too much discussion. A very few people booed, but as soon as I heard that I started clapping (as did many others, far more than booed), not because I agreed or disagreed with the ruling, but because I could tell it was a hard job and the refs deserved some support. I'm glad I wasn't out there making the calls!

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

As a member of team 753, the robot that was 'hanging' on the bar, I would like to say that the call was perfect. We all accepted the ruling without any frustration. In fact it was in our teams favor, we moved on. Actually, we did not expect to get the points for hanging anyway, we knew we were not.

If any ruling was controversial it was not whether we were hanging, it was whether we were an entanglement to the other team. This would have meant we were disqualified and would have lost. The entanglement call was not even the one that there was much emotion about it was the insignificant call about us hanging or not. The delay in the ruling was for the entanglement not hanging.

Anyway, just to clarify, and also to say thanks again to the refs. We lost in finals due to a chain of insanely unlucky events, but still had an awesome time.

Michael Forte
mforte@bendcable.com

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

Gary,
This is one of those weird, spiritual, parallel universe, kind of things. I have never heard "no booing" in any discussion of GP but knew in the back of my mind that is explicitly implied. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone has ever told me there will be no booing at a FIRST competition. After eight years with Wildstang and some 15 or 20 individual competitions, I can't remember ever hearing booing at an event. I do remember hearing sounds of disappointment, and witnessing the heartbreak of defeat but even those things were short lived. How often in sports do you see the loser congratulate the winner before doing anything else. Both on and off the field, FIRST competitors, think of the other team as their own and treat them as such. I have never felt that more than at GLR this weekend. I was met with a smile, no matter what pit I visited and was astounded at the number of people who came to our pit and said Hi.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

Ah yes, 'booing'. Sure, nobody said that it's not against gracious professionalism, but you need to realize, when was the last time you saw someone boo an engineer for his bridge design. Was Dave Lavery ever booed for the rovers? No. People have oposite opinions, but booing is something left to sport competitions where there is NO spectator involvement. In FIRST we can change how we do. Name the last time Joe Schmoe from Cleveland directly influenced the Browns, despite him buying tickets and a hot dog?

Re: Sportsmanship!
 

I was a ref with Andy in Portland. The call was tough, but most teams responded graciously and, by the tone of this thread, still do. I have to disagree with Andy on the booing...it really did disturb me. As many have also mentioned, this was the first time I had heard booing at a competition. I've probably been to close to twenty events. I'm hoping it was a rare event, and not a sign of FIRST getting too big.

A note to Corey (referenceing the quote below)...first abandoned the disabled robot clause as of last year. The rules state that the third robot in the alliance will play in the second match, no exceptions. So in the second match, they should have rotated...the refs made good by requiring the rotation in the third match.

Eric.

Re: [moderated] Sportsmanship!
 

Our team got booed at in Annapolis. We became tangled with another team and then tried to become free. Apparently other teams thought we were trying to pull them off the bar. Eventually the refs had to shut us off because we just went crazy trying to hang cause at that point we were not paying attention to the score. People in the stands told us we moved the whole platform

( I had a whole bunch of stuff written ready to post but CD logged me out so it lost all my text argh!!!!)