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Korbin 07-03-2004 01:12
Declining
 
I was watching the VCU broadcast, and during the alliance selection there was a team selected, that was not one of the alliance captains, and they declined, I was wondering, why would anyone do this? Am I wrong remembering that this is giving up a chance to continue on in the competition?!?!

Cory 07-03-2004 01:13
Re: Declining
 
There is one time when a team would do this. If their robot was broken beyond repair, they would decline an invitation to the elimination rounds, so that they wouldnt screw over the picking team.

Cory

Elgin Clock 07-03-2004 01:18
Re: Declining
 
As far as decling goes, the info that was announce today at NJ regional was:

If you are in the top 8 and are a "picking" alliance, then you can decline and still accept as a member of another alliances request for you to join them.

If you are a Number 9 ranked team or below, once you decline you can NO LONGER be chosen!

Tristan Lall 07-03-2004 09:31
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
As far as decling goes, the info that was announce today at NJ regional was:

If you are in the top 8 and are a "picking" alliance, then you can decline and still accept as a member of another alliances request for you to join them.

If you are a Number 9 ranked team or below, once you decline you can NO LONGER be chosen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 7.4.1
If the team accepts, it is moved into that Alliance. If the team declines, it is not
eligible to be picked again and the Alliance Captain extends another invitation to a different team.
According to the rules, that's not correct. Any team that declines may not be picked again. If however, they are (or become) a picking team, they may still form part of an alliance.

kjohnson 07-03-2004 09:36
Re: Declining
 
I don't remember what team declined but I thought that was weird too. Maybe a lot of their members got sick and they wanted to go home and not stay and compete any more.

Rich Kressly 07-03-2004 09:40
Re: Declining
 
The only other time I witnessed such a decline was in Epcot 2002. I believe that too was a broken robot situation.

trev2023 07-03-2004 10:03
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukemknight
I don't remember what team declined but I thought that was weird too. Maybe a lot of their members got sick and they wanted to go home and not stay and compete any more.
I believe it was one of the "bee" teams with yellow shirts on. There were 3 I think and one of them was 33, so that wasn't them, but I distinctly remember them wearing yellow shirts.

On a side note, I was just wondering if you encountered a situation where you were #9 ranked team and 1 picked 2, etc. and you were invited to another team and you declined, would you still become the #8 alliance captain?

David Kelly 07-03-2004 10:10
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukemknight
I don't remember what team declined but I thought that was weird too. Maybe a lot of their members got sick and they wanted to go home and not stay and compete any more.
Team 33, Killer Bees (alliance 3), declined an invitation from alliance 2 at VCU and they ended up winning the regional!!

ultramrw21 07-03-2004 10:19
Re: Declining
 
Yeah, 435 gave 33 an offer but they declined. Maybe its because we called them 333?

KenWittlief 07-03-2004 10:22
Re: Declining
 
I think that any team that declines the invitation to be in the elim rounds should get some sort of recognition or honor

we would all love to continue to play after the seeding matches - for a team to stand up and say "we are having problems with our bot, you will be better off picking someone else" has got to be one of the highest forms of true sportsmanship!

Gui Cavalcanti 07-03-2004 11:10
Re: Declining
 
For the record, it was team 836, the Robobees. I don't know why they declined, though.

kjohnson 07-03-2004 11:18
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trev2023
On a side note, I was just wondering if you encountered a situation where you were #9 ranked team and 1 picked 2, etc. and you were invited to another team and you declined, would you still become the #8 alliance captain?
The #1 seed picked us, the #2 seed and we accepted. When we accepted #1's offer, they were still the head and we lost our head position which bumped everyone else up one. So 9 became 8. Lets say 8 was invited by 4. 8 declines. They would still be seed 8 and and 4 would just have to pick again.
Make any sense? So yes, if 8 declined they would still be head of that alliance.

kjohnson 07-03-2004 11:21
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kelly
Team 33, Killer Bees (alliance 3), declined an invitation from alliance 2 at VCU and they ended up winning the regional!!
Yeah - if 165 Das Goat hadn't picked us, we would have asked 33. Well that was our plan. I don't think we were expecting 165 to ask us but I wasn't in the pits when all this talking about alliances was going on so I shouldn't say anything.

ErichKeane 07-03-2004 11:25
Re: Declining
 
This brings up an interesting question taht almost came up at the NJ regionals. My team, 219, ranked #2, was Picked 2nd time through by the #8 seed team (go figure). Now, since we already had an alliance, and were ranked #2, we declined of course.

Now, the question we considered later: Say 1st time through, every team picks their alliance mate #1.

Then, 2nd time through seed #1 picks seed #2, who already has an alliance mate.
1- would this be allowed to happen?
2- what would happen to the alliance mate?

MissInformation 07-03-2004 11:40
Re: Declining
 
Here is why the team declined: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26441

It must have been a heartbreaking decision to make, but they did the right thing and should be proud of that.

Heidi

Stephen Kowski 07-03-2004 12:00
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichKeane
This brings up an interesting question taht almost came up at the NJ regionals. My team, 219, ranked #2, was Picked 2nd time through by the #8 seed team (go figure). Now, since we already had an alliance, and were ranked #2, we declined of course.

Now, the question we considered later: Say 1st time through, every team picks their alliance mate #1.

Then, 2nd time through seed #1 picks seed #2, who already has an alliance mate.
1- would this be allowed to happen?
2- what would happen to the alliance mate?
then they wouldn't be able to choose #2 because #2 is already part of an alliance....it only works if you pick them BEFORE they have a partner....

simple explanation the whole thing
you are one of the top 8 you can decline an offer and still pick
you are not one of the top 8 you can decline, but if you do not end up moving up into the top 8 you are done
if you do move up to the top 8....you can pick....gl ppl

ngreen 07-03-2004 14:18
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichKeane
This brings up an interesting question taht almost came up at the NJ regionals. My team, 219, ranked #2, was Picked 2nd time through by the #8 seed team (go figure). Now, since we already had an alliance, and were ranked #2, we declined of course.

Now, the question we considered later: Say 1st time through, every team picks their alliance mate #1.

Then, 2nd time through seed #1 picks seed #2, who already has an alliance mate.
1- would this be allowed to happen?
2- what would happen to the alliance mate?
You can't choose people that are already in an alliance.

Guest 07-03-2004 15:14
Re: Declining
 
Bottom line: There is only one rule!

You can pick anyone who does not already have a partner.

KenWittlief 07-03-2004 16:45
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStar
Bottom line: There is only one rule!

You can pick anyone who does not already have a partner.
um....No!

you cant pick a team that has already declined someone else.

Korbin 07-03-2004 16:49
Re: Declining
 
ok, now that all that is sorted out, why would you pick a broken robot? In Past years of competition teams have purposely picked disabled robots because then they would be able to play as an alliance with the same two teams every time. However, they fixed that last year when the made the rule about every robot in the alliance has to play in at least one match. Soo is this just due to bad scouting?

KenWittlief 07-03-2004 16:56
Re: Declining
 
if there are 60 teams at a regional and you are on the second round of choosing alliance partners, there is no WAY you are going to know if every bot on your list is operating within normal parameters

or if it got damaged in one of its last matches

your scouting people wont have time to run around asking every team in the pits the current status of their machine.

Kaelia 07-03-2004 22:12
Re: Declining
 
Kudos to Robobees for declining! ^_^

Also, I noticed at the VCU regional that a *lot* of teams tried to pick teams that had already been picked and, occasionally, were standing right next to them! Pay attention, people...sheeesh...

Bcahn836 24-03-2004 19:51
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korbin
I was watching the VCU broadcast, and during the alliance selection there was a team selected, that was not one of the alliance captains, and they declined, I was wondering, why would anyone do this? Am I wrong remembering that this is giving up a chance to continue on in the competition?!?!

In case you are still wondering team 836 declined team 345's offer because of a broken caster, and 16 of our 20 students and numerous mentors, parents and the bus driver that went on the trip were sick do to the virus. However if we could of found a 7 inch caster we would have accepted. Additionally Team 836 thought it would be unfair to team 345 to accept and not be able to compete or compete at full strength. And also team 345 didn't know that we were broken. We broke the caster on the practice field 5 minuets before alliance pairings, we were fixing a bug in our auto mode, that seemed to make things worse.

Elgin Clock 24-03-2004 23:23
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichKeane
This brings up an interesting question taht almost came up at the NJ regionals. My team, 219, ranked #2, was Picked 2nd time through by the #8 seed team (go figure). Now, since we already had an alliance, and were ranked #2, we declined of course.

Now, the question we considered later: Say 1st time through, every team picks their alliance mate #1.

Then, 2nd time through seed #1 picks seed #2, who already has an alliance mate.
1- would this be allowed to happen?
2- what would happen to the alliance mate?
LOL... Actually, I was looking at this exact situation last night cause a team member brought it up. I did not see any specific rule in the rulebook against this. This would lead to a super alliance of 4 robots. NICE!!
Anyone want to challenge my findings of the rules?

Elgin Clock 24-03-2004 23:32
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
LOL... Actually, I was looking at this exact situation last night cause a team member brought it up. I did not see any specific rule in the rulebook against this. This would lead to a super alliance of 4 robots. NICE!!
Anyone want to challenge my findings of the rules?

© 2004 FIRST2004 Robotics Competition Manual, Section
7 - The Tournament - Rev C7 - The Tournament - Rev A Page 2 of 5

7.4.1 Alliance Selection Process



Each of the Alliance Leads will designate a student to be the Alliance Captain. Each remaining team will choose a student to act as Team Representative. Each Alliance Captain and Team Representative will proceed to the Playing Field at the designated time to represent his or her team.






In ascending order, each Alliance Captain will invite a team ranked below them in the standings, which has not already accepted or declined an invitation, to join their Alliance. The invited Team Representative will step forward and either Accept or Decline the invitation. If the team accepts, it is moved into that Alliance. If the team declines, it is not eligible to be picked again and the Alliance Captain extends another invitation to a different team. If an invitation from a top eight alliance team to another top eight alliance team is accepted, the team currently ranked ninth will move up to become the number eight alliance. The process continues until Alliance Eight makes a successful invitation. The same method is used for each Alliance Captain's second choice. Any teams remaining after Alliance Eight makes their second choice will not compete in the Elimination Rounds.


So, going by this.. I see no reason that a 1-8 alliance could not pick a 9 or below ranked team, and then second time around, a team from a lower rank than you in the top 8. Like if Alliance #2 selects #10, and then second time around picks #5 who already has a partner, say #7. Hence now 4 teams will now be in the alliance. Then Alliance #5 which already has teams #2, #10, #5, and #7 in it has to now (by rules) pick their "second" team leading to a 5 team alliance. NICE!!

MarcusF 24-03-2004 23:33
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
LOL... Actually, I was looking at this exact situation last night cause a team member brought it up. I did not see any specific rule in the rulebook against this. This would lead to a super alliance of 4 robots. NICE!!
Anyone want to challenge my findings of the rules?
7.4 ELIMINATION ROUNDS
At the end of the Qualification Rounds, the top eight ranked teams will become the Alliance Leads. The top
ranked Alliances will be designated, in order, Alliance One, Alliance Two, etc., down to Alliance Eight.
Alliances One through Eight may invite any team below them in the rankings, that has not already declined an
invitation, to join their alliance. The Alliance Selection Process will consist of two rounds so that each of the
eight playoff alliances consists of three teams.

you almost answered it your self

Elgin Clock 24-03-2004 23:37
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusF
7.4 ELIMINATION ROUNDS
At the end of the Qualification Rounds, the top eight ranked teams will become the Alliance Leads. The top
ranked Alliances will be designated, in order, Alliance One, Alliance Two, etc., down to Alliance Eight.
Alliances One through Eight may invite any team below them in the rankings, that has not already declined an
invitation, to join their alliance. The Alliance Selection Process will consist of two rounds so that each of the
eight playoff alliances consists of three teams.

you almost answered it your self
So, does that mean if team 2 was to pick number 10, and then number 5 which already has number 7, then you could dump 7 or 5 and just take one or the other?
Pretty tricky eh?

Joe Ross 24-03-2004 23:37
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
In ascending order, each Alliance Captain will invite a team ranked below them in the standings, which has not already accepted or declined an invitation, to join their Alliance.
:p

Elgin Clock 24-03-2004 23:40
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Ross
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
In ascending order, each Alliance Captain will invite a team ranked below them in the standings, which has not already accepted or declined an invitation, to join their Alliance.
:p
But, if team #2 picks team #5, they have not already accepted or declined an invitation. They have been the choosers, not the chosen.

edit: Unless by picking #7, then you can say number 5 has accepted an invitation. Hmm.. interesting.

Oh, and I swear.. I am NOT one of those lawyers that Dean was talking about!!!

Elgin Clock 24-03-2004 23:50
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock
As far as decling goes, the info that was announce today at NJ regional was:

If you are in the top 8 and are a "picking" alliance, then you can decline and still accept as a member of another alliances request for you to join them.

If you are a Number 9 ranked team or below, once you decline you can NO LONGER be chosen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall
According to the rules, that's not correct. Any team that declines may not be picked again. If however, they are (or become) a picking team, they may still form part of an alliance.
Yeah thanks for the ruling....
Apparently this was wrong what they said in NJ, and we paid for that mislead belief in UTC this past weekend.. ARGHHHH....

Bob 25-03-2004 00:33
Re: Declining
 
How many teams do you know that have been denied twice in a row. Well we were this year at the Pittsburg regional. That just seemed to be a shock to me.

Joe Ross 25-03-2004 00:48
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
How many teams do you know that have been denied twice in a row. Well we were this year at the Pittsburg regional. That just seemed to be a shock to me.
Try Wildstang being declined 4 times in 1999: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9590 I beleive team 60 was declined 3 times in a row that year also.

However, the rules were a little different then. You could decline one team and still be picked.

Allison K 25-03-2004 00:58
Re: Declining
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korbin
I was watching the VCU broadcast, and during the alliance selection there was a team selected, that was not one of the alliance captains, and they declined, I was wondering, why would anyone do this? Am I wrong remembering that this is giving up a chance to continue on in the competition?!?!
At Great Lakes Regional we (226 were having a lot of troubles with our arm gearbox). It was working at the time but we knew it was rather fragile and not up to elimination standards. The drive team talked with the engineers and the whole team talked about it over lunch and we decided that should we get picked we would decline. We were however, not put in that position.

Allison

PS- For all of you midwest teams we spent saturday fixing our arm and we are now ready and raring to go.


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